Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Elyeh on November 12, 2005, 04:27:43 AM

Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 12, 2005, 04:27:43 AM
Please put the ammo counter back up in the top left corner.

(Or get rid of the moving stick) the damn handle is always blocking the cannon/ord counter

And raise up the gas gage. If you fly more up into the cockpit, (as the pilot would in Real world) you cant see the gas gage.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Kurfürst on November 15, 2005, 08:15:10 AM
It thought there was no ammo counter in any of Spitfires - and most WW2 planes, for the matter, only the Luftwaffe seem to be keen on the habit to put such counters in for the pilots.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: cav58d on November 15, 2005, 01:40:58 PM
How exactly did the Luftwaffe do an ammo counter in their aircraft?  I have heard about Allied Aircraft changing the color of tracer rounds when down to the last 200 or so...But how did the luft have an actualy counter in the plane?
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Pooface on November 15, 2005, 01:42:36 PM
i think it was weight calibrated. im probably wrong though:lol
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Tails on November 15, 2005, 01:47:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Pooface
i think it was weight calibrated. im probably wrong though:lol


An easier method would be a synchro-type indicator, like cars have for a fuel guage. But, instead of a float, you would have a follower laying ontop of the ammo in the box.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Karnak on November 15, 2005, 02:04:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
It thought there was no ammo counter in any of Spitfires - and most WW2 planes, for the matter, only the Luftwaffe seem to be keen on the habit to put such counters in for the pilots.

Agreed.  I wish they'd get rid of the ammo counters in all aircraft that didn't have them and put in the proper analog counters for those Luftwaffe aircraft that did have them.
Title: Re: spit cockpit
Post by: Debonair on November 15, 2005, 03:42:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elyeh
...If you fly more up into the cockpit, (as the pilot would in Real world) you cant see the gas gage.


I've read a lot about/by guys who liked lower in the 'pit for better armour protection while in combat.
Anyone else think a guy sitting up too high should be more likely to be shot than someone hunched down behind his armour?
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Krusty on November 15, 2005, 03:52:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Agreed.  I wish they'd get rid of the ammo counters in all aircraft that didn't have them and put in the proper analog counters for those Luftwaffe aircraft that did have them.


I disagree wholeheartedly, and I will tell you why.

AH is not a real life mission with real life issues. Those folks were lucky if they saw a target in front of them. They had to fly in wings, with the lead getting the kill most of the time. When they got a target they would saddle up, and fire until their guns went dry or their enemy was dead. THEN they would run for home as fast as possible.

In AH its SO different its not funny. The reason we need ammo counters is because we have infinite targets to attack. We can ourselves be attacked by infinite enemy on our way from point A to B. At any given moment our actions need to be dictated by our knowledge of our plane. If we don't have gas, we run instead of fighting. If we don't have ammo, we do the same. If we're damaged badly we run for home like a bat outta hell.

Well we have a fuel gague. That lets us know the state of our aircraft. With this info we can decide what to do. The ammo counter does the same. The damage screen does the same.

How would you like to go into a fight thinking you're okay, but you fird out when you fire your gun that you only have 1x7mm, all your other guns were damaged but you didn't know because you had no damage screen. Real pilots wouldn't know.

How would you like to go into a fight, saddle up, get that PERFECT shot, then only fire 2 rounds from all your guns before they run dry?

AH is not a combat simulator. It's a flight simulator. Because the gameplay and dynamics are totally and completely different from real WW2 combat, we need ammo counters otherwise the system doesn't work too well.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Karnak on November 15, 2005, 03:59:51 PM
Krusty,

In all the off line sims I have played I did not have an ammo counter and yet due to the limitations of AI I was always playing "hero" to complete the mission.  Even in the massive dogfights of EAW I did not have any trouble mentally tracking, roughly, the amount of ammo I had left.  It isn't a hard skill to learn.

But it is a moot point really as HTC is highly unlikely to change this aspect and it is hardly one that my account rides on.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Krusty on November 15, 2005, 04:00:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
But it is a moot point really as HTC is highly unlikely to change this aspect and it is hardly one that my account rides on.


ditto
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Kweassa on November 15, 2005, 06:20:30 PM
Quote
AH is not a real life mission with real life issues. Those folks were lucky if they saw a target in front of them. They had to fly in wings, with the lead getting the kill most of the time. When they got a target they would saddle up, and fire until their guns went dry or their enemy was dead. THEN they would run for home as fast as possible.


 Nope.


Quote
In AH its SO different its not funny. The reason we need ammo counters is because we have infinite targets to attack. We can ourselves be attacked by infinite enemy on our way from point A to B. At any given moment our actions need to be dictated by our knowledge of our plane. If we don't have gas, we run instead of fighting. If we don't have ammo, we do the same. If we're damaged badly we run for home like a bat outta hell.


 Irrelevant.
 
 The amount of enemies met enroute is not a given factor, but a matter of choice. Careless people will find out that he is out of ammo the moment he pulls the trigger, more obsevant people will have plenty of methods to keep general track of his ammo situation.


Quote
Well we have a fuel gague. That lets us know the state of our aircraft. With this info we can decide what to do. The ammo counter does the same. The damage screen does the same.


 Nope.

 Neither the fuel guage nor the damage screen directly dictates the conditions of the fight. Ammo counters do. For onething, its very existence is one of the reasons behind why game gunnery distances is so much longer than it is in real life.


Quote
How would you like to go into a fight thinking you're okay, but you fird out when you fire your gun that you only have 1x7mm, all your other guns were damaged but you didn't know because you had no damage screen. Real pilots wouldn't know.

How would you like to go into a fight, saddle up, get that PERFECT shot, then only fire 2 rounds from all your guns before they run dry?


 Careless flying should come with consequences. If I find out that my perfect opportunity is ruined because I have no ammo, then I deserve such rude surprise - since I'm the one who had been so stupid as to be so ignorant of how many shots I've taken against how many planes for how long.


Quote
AH is not a combat simulator. It's a flight simulator. Because the gameplay and dynamics are totally and completely different from real WW2 combat, we need ammo counters otherwise the system doesn't work too well.


 Nope. Your definition of AH2 is wrong.



Quote
In all the off line sims I have played I did not have an ammo counter and yet due to the limitations of AI I was always playing "hero" to complete the mission. Even in the massive dogfights of EAW I did not have any trouble mentally tracking, roughly, the amount of ammo I had left. It isn't a hard skill to learn.


 Karnak's right. There are games with no ammo counters. People fly (as do I) with no problems at all. The only people who have problems with such crutches, are people who take them for granted.


Quote
But it is a moot point really as HTC is highly unlikely to change this aspect and it is hardly one that my account rides on.


 Things change, Karnak.

 Let's not exactly hold our breaths, but just keep it inside the wishlist. There are lot of changes with AH over the years, and many of them I remember to be "can't be done" or "will not be done".

 The changes with icons, distance counters, historical looking cockpits and distinct guages/features, lowering perk points on some planes, fixing up the long-range gunnery problems, working slats, visual tailhooks... etc etc..  Every single one of these and more, in the old AH1 days as you'd remember, when under suggestion and discussion were always treated as "moot points" and " will never happen"s.

 And yet, here we are - all of it did happen.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 15, 2005, 07:22:51 PM
we can argue all day about other sims not having them or real world not having them but the fact is we do have them in AHII

The point is we have the counters so please put them where they can be seen. Plain and simple

So please put it back up in the top left corner where it was.... Please
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: 1K3 on November 15, 2005, 08:50:43 PM
no

:)

keeping the ammo counters the way they are right now makes AH plane cockpits semi-realistic
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Kweassa on November 16, 2005, 01:57:50 AM
Quote
We can argue all day about other sims not having them or real world not having them but the fact is we do have them in AHII


 ...just like how we can argue the ammo counters can be placed here or there, but the fact is they are placed at that spot in AH2?
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 16, 2005, 07:04:50 AM
They were in the top left originally
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Kirin on November 16, 2005, 10:20:25 AM
Quote
AH is not a combat simulator. It's a flight simulator. Because the gameplay and dynamics are totally and completely different from real WW2 combat, we need ammo counters otherwise the system doesn't work too well.


... uhm, AH frontpage says:

Quote
Aces High II is a massive multi-player online combat simulation centered around the World War II air-war.


---

Well, either way. With the new cockpit renovations it seems to me HTC is pointing towards more realistic cockpits opposed to the generic ones from AH1. While having ammo-counters and trim-indicators may be a gameplay concesion I really hate em. They destroy any illusion of a realistic cockpit. Why does my (historical) ammo counter show the trim tabs while there has to be a ugly digital counter to be installed.

My strive for realism conflicts with the many concessions AH has. Concering the planes I've been always wishing for realistic gauges (kinda have em now - but still IMPERIAL readings in LW cockpits - yuck); trim on the surfaces (and only them) which were trimable in flight historical and above all realistic motor manegement (e.g. prop pitch, overheating, radiator flaps etc)...

But those will never come...   :cry
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: scott123 on November 16, 2005, 10:38:22 AM
give me visible trim indicators,Ican live without ammo counters.;)
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Bruno on November 16, 2005, 10:52:55 AM
With AH's view system what difference does it make where the ammo counters are? Just map key pad 8 (forward view) so you can take a quick snapshot of the counters. Or get trackIR... I can't understand why one would need to stare at them constantly, to count every bullet? A quick look to see how much ammo is left should be good enough.

I play allot of FB/AEP/PF and folks get along fine without ammo counters (and icons, damage list and a lot of other stuff described as 'crutch').

However, my aversion to the ammo counters is that they are hideously ugly. If folks in AH must have exact ammo count (I do agree what Kweassa stated, ammo counters do dictate the conditions of the fight more so then even fuel) then put them in the E6B.

It seems that they have some talent for making cockpits in AH2 (AH1 stuff was always horrible). I hope one day they bite the bullet and go for more historical cockpits. However, I don't think AHs player base would tolerate that.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 16, 2005, 03:32:21 PM
LOL..... If you map a foward look (I already have it) you cant see the count because the handle blocks the view!

Thats my complaint.... You have to dive to see through the handle, or bank left or right.

AH put it a counter on the planes so it can be used I'm assuming.

The handle makes it hard/unable to view the cannon/DT/ord count. (you can see MG count just fine)

Thats what I'm trying to stress here.

Move the counter back where it was...where it can be used
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Karnak on November 16, 2005, 03:52:33 PM
I have no difficulty viewing the counter when I want to.  Maybe it is just you.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Bruno on November 16, 2005, 04:10:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elyeh
LOL..... If you map a foward look (I already have it) you cant see the count because the handle blocks the view!

Thats my complaint.... You have to dive to see through the handle, or bank left or right.

AH put it a counter on the planes so it can be used I'm assuming.

The handle makes it hard/unable to view the cannon/DT/ord count. (you can see MG count just fine)

Thats what I'm trying to stress here.

Move the counter back where it was...where it can be used


You can use page up / down and the arrow keys to set then save your head position (default F10) to view the counters without having the look through the handle (at least on all the planes I just checked)...

In which plane are you claiming this is impossible?
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 16, 2005, 07:19:53 PM
Dude... Fly a Spit... Have your normal head postion  more foward than back.

Fly straight and level.... "Look foward" the handle is blocking the cannon count.  You can see part of the word  but not see how many rounds you have.  :furious
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Bruno on November 16, 2005, 07:55:32 PM
I see the whole ammo counter 'bar', Dude...

(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/IseeAmmoCounters.jpg)

Spit XVI, straight and level...

Save Keypad_8 as ForwardDown, adjust head a bit, save with F10. Instant hot key to check ammo. You can even zoom in and out.

Are you sure you aren't just looking for something to whine about..?
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 17, 2005, 12:36:24 AM
Ya know what....... I'm not the only one who has a complaint about the counter. Why not have left it where its at? Why have to look down in the middle of a fight? The beacon serves no purpose where the  counter used to be. I'm not whining I think your being argumentive.

Just answer me this ....Why move it so you have to look down? What was the matter where it was????
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Karnak on November 17, 2005, 01:19:12 AM
It was moved so as to make the cockpit more historical.  Deal with it.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: bozon on November 17, 2005, 01:28:20 AM
The stick moves.
To see cannon counter - roll left
To see MG counter - roll right
:D

The location of the compass is also not usefull, but then again, I think spits did not have a dial compass and definitly not the rotating needle like we have that I havn't seen on any plane.

Bozon
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: straffo on November 17, 2005, 02:39:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
The stick moves.
To see cannon counter - roll left
To see MG counter - roll right
:D

The location of the compass is also not usefull, but then again, I think spits did not have a dial compass and definitly not the rotating needle like we have that I havn't seen on any plane.

Bozon

hmmm if I see a spit rolling left then right I can guess safely he is out of ammo ?

:)
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: justin_g on November 17, 2005, 03:43:01 AM
The horizontal compass at the bottom of the panel is accurate - look at any photo of a real Spitfire cockpit.
Title: spit cockpit
Post by: Elyeh on November 17, 2005, 06:49:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
It was moved so as to make the cockpit more historical.  Deal with it.


Ok then why have them at all?  Just eliminate them.