Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sundiver on November 12, 2005, 05:47:29 PM
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And overhear on all channel how the Hurri IIC has no place in the current setup. Aside from the fact that the Russian did indeed fly them explain to me how it has no place in a setup where the Germans have turning rides like the FM2 and 109-F4?
To me it seems fairly balanced. Really the IIC is the only turn fighter the allies have since if you up a LA5 you get accused of flying in "easy mode".
Machhi.
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Originally posted by Sundiver
a setup where the Germans have turning rides like the FM2 and 109-F4?
In this setuo, the Germans have 109F-4's, but they do not have FM2's. And neither do the Finnish Air Forces, what they have is the Brewster model 239. But since we don't have it in game, it's been subbed with the FM-2 (it's been substituted on this map for a while...)
But yes, Hurri2c does belong to this setup as well as the Brewster (err, FM2 ;)) does. In reality the Friedrich should be limited to the Northern fields, and perhaps on the fields on the south side of the Finnish Gulf since the FiAF never had any F's.
edit: While at it, Finland never had any 110's or 190's either, some of German 190's and Stukas were based in Finland during the Soviet assault in Summer 1944 (109's and 110's were based in North Finland from '41 onward). But keep the setup as it is for playability, this is just history. :)
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Originally posted by Sundiver
To me it seems fairly balanced. Really the IIC is the only turn fighter the allies have since if you up a LA5 you get accused of flying in "easy mode".
Take note of who is saying that and use the .squelch Storch command. Problem solved. :)
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Hurri is a easymode plane in this setup. And since it takes 3+ 20mms it wings and tail and keeps flying Id have to say its over modeled as well. Yes CMs use historical setups but they also make them even sided. Hurri can keep up with most the axis planes it can out turn all but the hurriI, the f2m is an even match up and it has the best gunpackage in the setup. Before you even say something like well the 110 has 4x 20s and 2x 30s, to have a chance of staying alive for more then 2 seconds you have to only take the 2x 20mm and 2x30mm even then the 4x 20mms on the hurri are way better then the 110s guns.
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planeset is fine
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Hurricanes are meat on the table for the majority of the LW aircraft. The planeset is fine like Eagler said.
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Originally posted by Sundiver
To me it seems fairly balanced. Really the IIC is the only turn fighter the allies have since if you up a LA5 you get accused of flying in "easy mode".
Nobody said anything about the La5 being an easymode plane the hurri is the easymode plane and since when did the P40 become a B&Z plane since you said the hurri is the only turn fighter again with the La5 that is a hell of a turner, but most people dont know it because they run in it.
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The P40 at least in my experience cannot stand up to a FM2 or F4 in a turn fight.
As for the Hurri IIC being a "easy mode" plane, in the hands of most pilots it's anything but. It is underpowered and very easy to stall with anyone but an experienced stick flying it. Is it easy to kill in? Yes. IF you manage to saddle someone. Most of the German rides that cannot outrun can at least turn with it.
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actually the f4f would be a better sub than the fm2, despite 6 guns vs 4...
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If you are getting beat by a IIc its your own fault.
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Originally posted by Grits
Take note of who is saying that and use the .squelch Storch command. Problem solved. :)
I never made that comment
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Actually it wasn't Storch. Was a cohort.
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Well, I had a 50-50 chance, it had to be either you or TK. :)
I have never squelched you Storch, I actually find you rather entertaining most of the time. I used your name in my example because you were someone I knew would not take it personally.
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I said it and mena it hurri is a easymode plane and is almost as bad as the old spit5.
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flew the P40E against the C202 and the 109f4 had no problems,
flew the P40E against the 109f4, and 110 and hurri ( was mostly 3 on 1 and 4 on 1 ) and had no chance at all.
especially when was only get near 1k out off of field from take off before being pounced.
same thing flying the hurric2 3 or 4 pouncing , they always coming with an alt advantage or getting me just taking off with less than 2k under my wings.
so 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 the P40E or the Huri2c can handle the 110s, Hurri1 and c202 or 109F4, maybe the 109G2 will give a bit of a fight.
but the P40E nor the Hurri2c can do anything when you are pounced from people on a perch or being waxed as soon as you try to take off or try to land.......
does that about sum it all up? JG54 squadron? if people claim that the pilots in the CT are so much superior to those in the MA< why must you have to fight in groups of 3 or 4, or is that what everyone means by being superior?
I have enjoyed 2 great nights of flying in the CT this week, outside of KONG blantantly accusing me of vulching a JG54th when infact I was under the impression I was still after the 109 I smoked that ran, when infact it was another 109F someone else had pinged up. in which I apologized to Tbarone for taking him out. KONG was the one who tryed to pick me off , got smoked then ran........after certian people logged out me, Tbarone, and a few others had some good fights, JAkerat and 3 of us had some fun on a previous night, and it made me think that maybe the CT is worthy of flying there again
Then I have KONG talk down to me like I was a tard, I did not belong in the CT, the CT doesn't kill wounded planes, they let wounded planes land, they don't vulch people taking off or landing. All this smack from someone I tryed to help when I first saw him come into the game about a year ago, funny how some have so much influence on someone to lead them down the wrong path of how to act toward their fellow community players.......
but I forgot it is the JG54th's Arena and they say what goes..........
same freaking reason I stopped flying there in the past, thought it might have changed , but guess it is still their little play ground........
all in all, to Tbarone, JAkerat ( <---hope I spelled that right ), tankman2 and a few others.....................ha d some fun times this past week........
as for this post, this is my personal view and in know way has anything to do with my squad, the Training corps or anyone else.......
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I wouldnt take much if anything of what KONG has to say to heart Tbar,tankman, and N7 are some of the funnest fights in the CT.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
but I forgot it is the JG54th's Arena and they say what goes..........
Wow I didnt know someone could be so....so............ omg that one line was so stupid I cant find a word to discribe it. Kinda sounds like Lazs coming in saying the only way I can get kills is to have 3-4 buddies taging along and have alt adv. If only he had some comon since. Funny thing is about 30mins after that I killed shane while geting B&Zed by lazs good thing batfink came in and killed me saveing lazs right after I killed shane.
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Gee TC, I kinda feel the same way as you do. I spent most of the evening looking for 1 v 1's only to be be bounced by 3 to 4 every time. hmmmm let's see. who can I blame? do you see your sig line? hmmm good move deleting it prior to whining. kudos to TC.
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Originally posted by storch
Gee TC, I kinda feel the same way as you do. I spent most of the evening looking for 1 v 1's only to be be bounced by 3 to 4 every time. hmmmm let's see. who can I blame? do you see your sig line? hmmm good move deleting it prior to whining. kudos to TC.
Well, Storch, I didn't name each individual, I gave a ~S~ to those I thought deserved it, to add ALLMETAL , your gang is ok group when working together as a team, just never understand the justification why it takes 3 to 4 on 1 individual. Always thought that was over kill, team work is a good thing, and I am not bashing that aspect of it, just the thought of being told by one of your members that what took place last night is frowned upon in the CT< yet the same squad in which the individual that said it was doing the same thing he said was frowned upon.
furballing 3 on 4 or 4 on 2 etc...is straight up justifiyable, but to blatantly continue to pick off people upping from a base or having 3 or 4 trying to pivk one of while he is trying to land is down right pitiful..........
and to add. I never once actually whined, I just asked why, why do you have to ruin the fun aspect of the CT. everyone enjoys a good fight, regardless if ya out numbered 2 to 1 , sometimes even 3 to 1, but 4 to 1 is a little much....... especially when 1 is trying to get to at least 1k alt taking off then trying to dodge 2 or 3 diving in with E and you just raising gear and trying to get out of the way.
do give kudos back for the 2 times I feel for the spiral climb to have a mach 1 speed 109 or 110 come barreling down from a 5k alt advamntage 5 k away and flying under and straight up my 6, only if the icon distance could show these invisiable planes :D
as for my sig, yes I remove it when expressing a personal view , so I am only representing my self and not anyone else.
oh btw, fell out of my chair laughing when you came hauling tail in to pick me off in your 110 as I was trying to land to rearm, had I had any ammo left I would not have made the detour through that opening in the trees, and cause you to auger at the field I was trying to land at.....
again, no hard feelings, and for most part I enjoyed myself, even said so to the others, said thanks for the fun fights, and even ~S~ everyone, guess you was just to pissed to acknowledge the fun we all had.........:aok it is ok, I understand
TC
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I about fell outa my chair when I logged on last night to find 19 !! ppl in CT!!
I tried to up from a capped base and was repeatedly vulched by a horde pf 110's ....
I did not care as there were 19!! ppl in AH!!
hope to see numbers like that more often with or without the ch200 jibberish
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TC, sorry if I gave you the impression that I may have been angry. The truth is I find the game much more enjoyable by not tuning to Ch 200 except if I need to comment briefly then wait for a reply. perhaps my lack of replying could be attributed to that. if indeed that was the case then let me assure you that for my part it was great to see you there and I hope you will return. I had a blast in the CT last evening, even though I don't believe I landed a kill. The fights were competetive and under 8k for the most part and since I don't usually tune 200 and made a point of de tuning 200 after Shane logged on I personally enjoyed a fun time. I stayed on way longer than I should have, I'm working 7 days a week in the hurricane relief effort here. I don't recall attempting to vultch you, I generally don't do that though last night I did vultch two players as a return of courtesy, as it were. perhaps I confused you with one them as so many of you were in woobiecanes. I will agree with Lazs' comment that the 110 might be severly over-modelled. To that I would also add that if the real items performed in WWII as they do here in AHII then both the FW190 and Bf109 projects would have been cancelled in favor of the Bf110. I would also venture to guess the Spitfire may have been cancelled as well, in favor of the Hurricane.
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SunDiver my advice would be to fly what you like. Who cares what others say or think.
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truekill.... I'm sorry for shooting you down whenever I got near you and you didn't have help... you have a good move but it is predictable and depends on the overmodeled 110 and you not stalling and spinning or... the other guy not knowing much.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by Shane
actually the f4f would be a better sub than the fm2, despite 6 guns vs 4...
Agreed.
It's been traditional to use the FM2 ever since we had this wonderful FinRus map. Originally there was a core group of people who persuaded the staffers that the Buffalos used by the Finns were lighter weight than those used by the USN, and hence had superior performance. Perhaps that's true, but I doubt it was THAT superior. I'd use the F4F if we were starting all over, but the map and plane set has taken on a life of its own (and a good one at that), so we stuck with tradition.
And, as others point out, the FM2 v. the Hurri II is a pretty good fight.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Eagler
I about fell outa my chair when I logged on last night to find 19 !! ppl in CT!!
I tried to up from a capped base and was repeatedly vulched by a horde pf 110's ....
I did not care as there were 19!! ppl in AH!!
hope to see numbers like that more often with or without the ch200 jibberish
CT has been doing much better over the past couple of months. Lots of new faces, and lots of old ones returning. Warms the cockles of my old heart, so it does.
- oldman
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the Brewster model B239 was very much lighter and did have much better performance than the F2A-3. The reason the Navy selected the Brewster B239 over the Grumman F4F initially was the Brewster's better performance. Of course the Navy immidiately instigated changes to the design that added to it's overall weight without a corresponding increase in engine H.P. In Finnish hands the Brewster more than acquitted itself in combat. It may have actually been a challenger to the A6M2. It would be nice if one day HTC would model the B239.
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brewster top speed 320 mph.. rate of climb for best brewster was 2600 fpm
f4f-3 topped out at 335 and 3300 fpm climb
fm2 was 325 and climb of about 3200 fpm climb
f4f-4 is about 320mph and 2500 fpm climb..
The later f4f-4 wildcat would be a better substitute for the brewster.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
The later f4f-4 wildcat would be a better substitute for the brewster.
lazs
As I have said many times, even with the extra firepower of the 6x .50 cal the F4F-4 is a far more accurate sub for the Brewster than is the FM2.
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are those B239 numbers or are they the overweight F2A? :aok
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Please do not believe anything you hear over the global channel. 95% of the muttonheads yappin on there have NO idea what they are talkin about.
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I about fell outa my chair when I logged on last night to find 19 !! ppl in CT!!
I have been doing my best to get more people into the CT,to bring it back to what it use to be.A lot of players don't even know what the CT is so i try to show them the way.
Is the squad night still Thursday at 10?If so i will try too bring some more people in with me.
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Originally posted by storch
are those B239 numbers or are they the overweight F2A? :aok
Those numbers ARE for the overwheight F2A-3 which had a 1200 HP engine. The F2A-1's that the Fins got only had the export rated 950 HP engine and its actual top speed was only 298 MPH. So we have a plane that is nearly 30 MPH faster and climbs almost 1000 FPS better subing for the B-239.
The FM2 is by far the WORST[/b] sub used in the CT. The F4F-4 is still too good to sub for the B-239, but its a hell of a lot closer than the FM2.
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TC,
I didn’t “blatantly accuse” you of vulching - I witnessed it and asked you why. You responded first with denial, second with “bite me”, third with “mind your own business”. Then you come in the forum whining about how nobody fights you right and misrepresenting my communication with you.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen much poorer behavior on many occasions and never said a word. Thing is…I was surprised and taken aback. You see, I know you’re a good stick, a trainer, a long time player, and have left your teenage years behind. I had attributed you with a greater level of maturity and character than I was witnessing.
Sorry, my mistake, won’t happen again.
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Originally posted by Swager
Please do not believe anything you hear over the global channel. 95% of the muttonheads yappin on there have NO idea what they are talkin about.
LOL, believe me I know. I'm pretty much one of the CT plank owners back when it was a fun place to be. I never meant to create a monster with my post, I was just curious as to why someone would consider the Hurri as having no place in the planeset.
Then again, JG knows me well enough to know I'd much prefer a Yak 9U. :D
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Originally posted by Grits
Those numbers ARE for the overwheight F2A-3 which had a 1200 HP engine. The F2A-1's that the Fins got only had the export rated 950 HP engine and its actual top speed was only 298 MPH. So we have a plane that is nearly 30 MPH faster and climbs almost 1000 FPS better subing for the B-239.
The FM2 is by far the WORST sub used in the CT. The F4F-4 is still too good to sub for the B-239, but its a hell of a lot closer than the FM2. [/B]
does anyone actually fly the FM2? also, If I may politely ask, are you currently menstruating? you sure do come off as grouchy lately.
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Originally posted by KONG1
TC,
I didn’t “blatantly accuse” you of vulching - I witnessed it and asked you why. You responded first with denial, second with “bite me”, third with “mind your own business”. Then you come in the forum whining about how nobody fights you right and misrepresenting my communication with you.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen much poorer behavior on many occasions and never said a word. Thing is…I was surprised and taken aback. You see, I know you’re a good stick, a trainer, a long time player, and have left your teenage years behind. I had attributed you with a greater level of maturity and character than I was witnessing.
Sorry, my mistake, won’t happen again.
aghhh, cough, cough, cough, psst KONG, some of us age but refuse to mature, be kind to a young at heart old geezer
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Originally posted by storch
does anyone actually fly the FM2?
I do, its a monster. The real question should be, is it the best sub for the B-239? Even the Hurricane I is a better sub, but the Finn's already have that one. Actually, the best sub performance wise to the Brewster would be the P-40b, but I understand why the FM2/F4F is used since they are radial engined Navy planes.
also, If I may politely ask, are you currently menstruating? you sure do come off as grouchy lately.
LOL...no, I have always hated the FM2 sub for the Brewster, it just happened to come up in the same thread that I .squelch'd you. No hard feelings eh? ;)
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Originally posted by storch
are those B239 numbers or are they the overweight F2A? :aok
Do you have any stats you can post on the B239? Im at work and dont have access to my books. At one time I was going to stop using the FM-2 as the sub and switch to the F4F-4. But then I ran across some numbers on the B239 that seemed close enough to the Fm-2 to justify using it. I was kind of surprised.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Do you have any stats you can post on the B239? Im at work and dont have access to my books. At one time I was going to stop using the FM-2 as the sub and switch to the F4F-4. But then I ran across some numbers on the B239 that seemed close enough to the Fm-2 to justify using it. I was kind of surprised.
I have, however I'll need to look them up. from memory the climb rates were about equal and the FM2 was 12-15 mph faster. the big difference was in the guns the B239 has two .30cals and two .50cals. excluding top speed the best sub might actually be the 202, but who's asking (wishful thinking on my part I suppose). any how the FM2 is really an F4F-3 which was arguably the quintessential wildcat variant.
remember that the Brewster model was also exported to the english and the dutch for use in the far east as the model B339 which was also heavier than the original B239. the important info pertains to the B239. perhaps our Finnish friends can provide some useful numbers on this obscure yet important little fighter.
and as final note the Finns also received several of the Arsenal VG-33 from france. this capable aircraft attained decent speed and climb for it's day as well as being well armed with 4 M.G.s and a single 20mm. cannon.
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Originally posted by storch
any how the FM2 is really an F4F-3 which was arguably the quintessential wildcat variant
I was under the impression the FM-2 Wildcat was its own beast built by General Motors. 200 or so more HP than the F4F-4 and a larger vertical stabilizer.
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Originally posted by Slash27
I was under the impression the FM-2 Wildcat was its own beast built by General Motors. 200 or so more HP than the F4F-4 and a larger vertical stabilizer.
The F4F-3 and F4F-4 both used the 1200HP Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp two row 14 cylinder engine. GM built F4F-4's were called FM-1s'. The FM-2 had the lighter 1350HP Wright Cyclone R-1820 single row 9 cylinder engine, and a larger/taller verticle stablizer to counter the added torque of the more powerful engine.
The B-239 used a 950HP Wright Cyclone, which was an export version that did not feature WEP like the US F2A-1 that was rated the same at MIL and 1000HP at WEP.
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Originally posted by Grits
The F4F-3 and F4F-4 both used the 1200HP Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp two row 14 cylinder engine. GM built F4F-4's were called FM-1s'. The FM-2 had the lighter 1350HP Wright Cyclone R-1820 single row 9 cylinder engine, and a larger/taller verticle stablizer to counter the added torque of the more powerful engine.
The B-239 used a 950HP Wright Cyclone, which was an export version that did not feature WEP like the US F2A-1 that was rated the same at MIL and 1000HP at WEP.
yup utilizing the F4F-3 wing and fuslage adding the zero length 5" rockets hard points. what I didn't know was that the wright cyclone engine was used. however the F4F-3 enjoyed much better performance than the F4F-4 did. just read that the FM-2 was the Grumman XF4F-8 and was pretty much a lighter redesign of the wildcat. http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/ac-usn22/f-types/fm2.htm
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Originally posted by KONG1
TC,
I didn�t �blatantly accuse� you of vulching - I witnessed it and asked you why. You responded first with denial, second with �bite me�, third with �mind your own business�. Then you come in the forum whining about how nobody fights you right and misrepresenting my communication with you.
Don�t get me wrong, I�ve seen much poorer behavior on many occasions and never said a word. Thing is�I was surprised and taken aback. You see, I know you�re a good stick, a trainer, a long time player, and have left your teenage years behind. I had attributed you with a greater level of maturity and character than I was witnessing.
Sorry, my mistake, won�t happen again.
no worries, kong.
edited: and yes I did deny vulching a plane, I done explained why I thought it wasn't a vulch, I even apologized afterward for it. yes I did tell you to bite me and I told you, you shouldn't be sticking your nose in where it didn't belong.
films say/show a whole lot, even what actually happens verses what I might say or what you might say happened.
ask Tbarone how things went after you logged. I do not feel I misrepresented you in anyway shape or form in how I posted you acted verses what I witnessed this last visit to the CT.
it's all good, sometimes your the windshield, sometimes your the fly.........
until next time
TC
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Originally posted by storch
y just read that the FM-2 was the Grumman XF4F-8 and was pretty much a lighter redesign of the wildcat. http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/ac-usn22/f-types/fm2.htm
Yes, the FM-2 was the F4F-8, but Grumman did not want to take any production capacity away from the F6F so they did not build any, General Motors built them all as FM-2's. 4777 FM-2's were built, making it by far the most numerous Wildcat variant. The Wright Cyclone was chosen because it was a bit more powerful, a bit lighter, but more importantly it was tuned for low alt performance. Since the FM-2 was going to be on CVE's doing anti-submarine duty for the most part, they did not want the P&W R-1830, which even though rated at 1200HP, it was much better performing at high alt.
Here are some specs on the B-239
Brewster B-239 specifications
Wingspan: 10.67 m
Length: 8.03 m
Height: 3.66 m
Wing area: 19.4 m2
Empty weight: 2020 kg
Typical takeoff weight: 2415 kg (with 300kg fuel)
Engine: 950 HP Wright Cyclone R-1820-G5.
1000 HP with War Emergency Power (for 5 mins max).
Armament: 3 x 0.50 cal + 1 x 0.30 cal.
Later 4 x 0.50 cal (12.7 mm) machine guns.
Max speed: 480 kmph at 4750 meters. 428 kmph at sea level.
Service ceiling: 9900 meters. Climb to 3000 meters 4 minutes 12 seconds, 5000 meters 7 minutes 10 seconds.
Range: 1350 km with 390 kmph cruise speed (full 600 liter fuel load), flight time 3 hours 30 minutes. Max flight time over 4 hours with lower speeds.
480kph is 298mph top speed, 428kph is 266mph on the deck. Climb 3000m is 4:12 which averages to 2160 fpm but I would guess initial climb rate is close to 2500fpm. Most if not all specs you can find on the Brewster are not for the Finn plane, but for the US version, the FA2-1 which had a more powerful engine, but had not yet had all the pilot armor and junk added to it. The Finns actually added pilot armor to thier planes. The F2A-1's top speed was 311mph with deck speed being 271mph. Initial climb rate was 3060 fpm, but remember that the original Navy F2A-1 was more powerful than the B-239 and was not heavier.
Actually, the best match to the performance numbers and firepower of the B-239 is the P-40b. The Brewster no doubt turned and rolled far better than the P-40b, but in every other respect they are very close. Since the P-40b is an inline engine and looks nothing like the Brewster, and even though the F4F-4 has too much firepower and does not perform quite as well as the Brewster, the F4F-4 is still the best match to the performance of the plane the Finn's actually flew.