Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Badboy on November 13, 2005, 03:47:17 PM
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Guys,
I’ve been comparing the new Spitfire variants, and because I spend a fair amount of time in the DA, my first interest was in finding out how they stacked up to the Mk V since that has been the firm favourite for duelling.
After doing some quick checks, I knew the VIII was a strong contender, so I produced an EM diagram for it, then confirmed it in the DA, the Spitfire VIII is now the ultimate dogfight variant.
First the EM diagrams:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/AH2-SpitV-v-SpitVIII.jpg)
Here you can see that the new SpitV still has a slight edge in instantaneous turn rate, which means that in a one circle fight (which is how all duels begin) the Mk V has a very small edge, but the Mk VIII has a sustained turn rate advantage that is decisive…
Here is how the one circle fight stacks up:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/SpitV-v-SpitVIII-two-circle.jpg)
Notice that the Spit V can still get the first shot on the second merge, because it has a slightly smaller turn radius, but if you stay out of the bandits plane of motion slightly, and spoil the shot, the Ps advantage will win the fight eventually.
Here is the two circle fight:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/SpitV-v-SpitVIII-one-circle.jpg)
You can see the very small turn radius advantage, but the sustained turn rate advantage should dominate, and I’ve been able to confirm that fairly consistently in the DA.
Last but not least, the VIII has a 1500ft/min climb rate advantage, and a 33mph top speed advantage, dropping to 21mph without war emergency power. Not to mention the reduction in the SpitV’s ammo load… Basically, the SpitV is dead, long live the SpitVIII.
At least nobody can say that our teaching isn’t being informed by the latest research :)
Badboy
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Thanks for the info BadBoy. Very interesting.
I still dont like the MkVIII much. I guess im biased. I just *love* the MkV. :)
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Didn't you love the Hurricane? :D
Thanks for the info, Badboy, nice work as always! :)
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Didn't you love the Hurricane? :D
That thing between me and the Hurri1 is more than mere Love, Gian..... :)
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The Spit VIII is great. It wobbles around a little bit more than the old Spit V did when slow, but it honestly feels very familiar. I'd be curious to see how it stacks up against the Spit IX as well.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Schatzi
That thing between me and the Hurri1 is more than mere Love, Gian..... :)
Is it lust? Because I'm pretty sure it's lust.
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Ah, it surely must be! :D
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Stop it guys ;).
Take it to the FM forum... this is Help & Training!
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Ooops! You're right! You know, old habits die hard! :D
So, let's go back on topic... Badboy, can we have EM diagrams for all the other Spits? :)
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I'd like to see spit9 vs spit8... Folks are saying the 8 is the new killer, it's the best, turns best, etc etc, but from memory it's basically a LFIX with more gas.
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Spit XVI baby! But then again I've got this thing for clipped wing Spits :)
Spit VIII should be the ultimate Merlin Spit.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'd like to see spit9 vs spit8... Folks are saying the 8 is the new killer, it's the best, turns best, etc etc, but from memory it's basically a LFIX with more gas.
not our IX and VIII. The IX is the early model with weaker engine. Our VIII out climb, out run and out accelerate it. The roll rate seem to be a little better on the IX though. Perhaps it's due to the redesigned ailerons, Guppy/Dan should probably know.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'd like to see spit9 vs spit8... Folks are saying the 8 is the new killer, it's the best, turns best, etc etc, but from memory it's basically a LFIX with more gas.
spit8 is a different plane. the 9 was basically a mk5 airframe with a merlin 61, while the spit 8, (which was released after the 9, due to the fact that the 9 was the name given to adapted spit5's) has a completely redesigned airframe, longer body, poited tail, and many refinments like retractable tail wheel. it was the ultimate in merlin spitfire design. fitted with very powerful merlin 66.
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You have that diagram for the 16 too?
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Originally posted by Pooface
spit8 is a different plane. the 9 was basically a mk5 airframe with a merlin 61, while the spit 8, (which was released after the 9, due to the fact that the 9 was the name given to adapted spit5's) has a completely redesigned airframe, longer body, poited tail, and many refinments like retractable tail wheel. it was the ultimate in merlin spitfire design. fitted with very powerful merlin 66.
Just to clarify, the early Spit IX was basically a lash up between the Spitfire Vc and the Merlin 61. As Spit IX production went on, many of the refinements of the VIII were included so a 44-45 Spit IX would be much more complete then the 42 Spit IX that was hurried into production.
Take a 1945 Spitfire LFIX and a 1945 Spitfire VIII and the main differences would be the retractable tail of the VIII and the short span ailerons that basically just added some stiffness to the aileron. I haven't seen anything to suggest they improved performance much if at all. And there wouild be the extra fuel in th wings which gave it greater range.
The VIII was destined for overseas use from the start, which was why it was tropicalized, had the extra fuel in the leading edge wing tanks etc.
Ultimately it came down to production and in some ways it was easier and faster to get the Spit IX out there.
Dimensions for a standard LFIX and LFVIII would be the same. The VIII did not have a longer body or redesigned fuselage. The tail section incorperated the retractable wheel, but that's seperate from the fuselage section.
Being a Spit XII fanatic I've had to deal with the first 50 XIIs in the EN serial range that were built on Spitfire Vc contracts and the last 50 in the MB range that were built on Spitfire VIII contracts. Only diff between the first and last is the retractable tail wheel and even that doesn't work as if the tail was replaced it might be a non retractable version as was done with MB794 that has the fixed tail.
Image of a flight of 41 Squadron XIIs with MB794 being the only fixed tail wheel showing and the others also MB serialed with the retractable tail. All built on VIII contracts.
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/41SpitXIIFlight.jpg)
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Is that a trick of the light or are those 3-tone camo paint jobs?
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Trick of the light, I'd say... :confused:
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I would say a trick of the light. If you look at the light blotches on the empenage around the base of the vertical stab, it's the same shade as the middle blotch.
Damned color film being so uncommon back then.
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Typical RAF camo, not three tone. Gray/green on top, sky underneath.
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/EN224.jpg)
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I ask because EBB and EBH seem to have a darker "dark" area, as compared to EBD in between them. EBD almost looks as if it has 1 color by the nose and a different color on the tail/stab. I couldn' t be sure, had to ask.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I ask because EBB and EBH seem to have a darker "dark" area, as compared to EBD in between them. EBD almost looks as if it has 1 color by the nose and a different color on the tail/stab. I couldn' t be sure, had to ask.
EB-B was issued to 41 Squadron in very late December 43 after all the heavy action of the Fall. EB-D had been with them since early September 43 and had been a part of it. It's really just a good visual guide to wear and tear on a Spitfire :)
BTW EB-B was the Flight Commander's aircraft too so it clearly got better care.
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The new cockpits seem WAY too fat & wide to me.
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Wow, I love that camo, thanks for sharing Guppy, I wonder if any modders could do it for the Spitfires.
P.S Nice diagram Badboy, looks like you put A lot of effort into to it, well done.
Kazaa
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'd be curious to see how it stacks up against the Spit IX as well.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Me too, I'm going to do that comparison over the weekend, I'll post it as soon as its done.
Badboy
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Originally posted by Kazaa
P.S Nice diagram Badboy, looks like you put A lot of effort into to it, well done.
Did it sound familiar to you from training?
Badboy
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Here is the Spitfire comparison including the Mk IX:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/AH2-Spits.jpg)
It is clear to see that the VIII is superior to the IX at sea level in every respect. The Mk VIII has a better sustained and instantaneous turn, it is faster, and has a better climb rate. The difference between the two is only slight, but the Spit VIII is clearly the new ultimate low level dogfighter :)
Badboy
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I disagree. Spit XVI wins over spit VIII, you cannot simply discount the XVI's ability to roll much quicker.
For the current tour (Nov. 05)
Spit VIII has 890 kills of Spit VXI
Spit XVI has 960 kills of Spit VIII
Personally I'm 20-12 vs Spit VIII's and only 4 of those deaths were in a Spit XVI. I'm sure a smattering of the kills on the VIII came from a rid elike the La-7 or P-47.
I know the stat itself contains variables, but... the pilot is the ultimate variable.
just my opinion.
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I think Shane's right, the 16 will trounce the 8, but we'll have to wait and see Badboy's chart!
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Originally posted by Shane
I disagree. Spit XVI wins over spit VIII, you cannot simply discount the XVI's ability to roll much quicker.
I haven't discounted that, I simply haven't considered it. Anyone who is familiar with Boyd's OODA loop will understand the significance of fast transients in air combat, and know that the Spit XVI's roll is important. But that’s another topic, and not the point I was making.
For the current tour (Nov. 05)
Spit VIII has 890 kills of Spit VXI
Spit XVI has 960 kills of Spit VIII
Of course, that is exactly what you would expect of the two faster Spitfires in the MA, but if you check the start of the thread, you will see I was discussing the Spitfire for use in the DA and purely for duelling.
Personally I'm 20-12 vs Spit VIII's and only 4 of those deaths were in a Spit XVI.
To kill Spit VIII’s in the MA and get a big score with no deaths would say something about the aircraft you were flying, but it would say a great deal more about the way it was flown.
I'm sure a smattering of the kills on the VIII came from a rid elike the La-7 or P-47.
Doesn’t really matter what you fly, you could rack up big scores flying almost any early war variant against any of the Spits if you flew it smart enough.
the pilot is the ultimate variable.
Exactly, and given equal pilots, for low level duelling in the DA, the Spitfire MkV has been superseded as the plane of choice, which was the point of my original message. In the MA the situation is very different, as you know.
Badboy
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Maybe a dumb question ;) How in the world do you read these charts?? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Maybe a dumb question ;) How in the world do you read these charts?? :rolleyes:
hehe didn't u complete school? :D
Look at them for awhile u will understand.
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Originally posted by SkyChimp
hehe didn't u complete school? :D
Look at them for awhile u will understand.
;)
Ok I think I have most of it...
upper right is the radius of the turn....also find your speed and g's then you can find your deg/sec of that turn....but what is the lower horizontal line coming off the move verticle line?
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oh, i'm not contesting your diagrams (can't even understand 'em anyway, so I'll take your word for it :aok ) - i'm contesting this statement:
"the Spitfire VIII is now the ultimate dogfight variant."
I still say equal pilots, spitXVI will win the majority of the duels.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
How in the world do you read these charts??
zorstorer, check this link EM: pick up the right plane for the job (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html), you'll find what you're looking for. Btw, there's a .pdf version of it @ http://www.netaces.org
Badboy, I've heard of OODA in Andy's articles, he gave a basic description of it, any good reading on the Net to deepen my knowledge of this subject? Thank you, even for this new chart! :aok
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
zorstorer, check this link EM: pick up the right plane for the job (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html), you'll find what you're looking for. Btw, there's a .pdf version of it @ http://www.netaces.org
Badboy, I've heard of OODA in Andy's articles, he gave a basic description of it, any good reading on the Net to deepen my knowledge of this subject? Thank you, even for this new chart! :aok
Thank you very much :) I was on the right track but that site brought it all together, thanks again!!
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You're welcome sir! And thanks Badboy, he's the man! ;)
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Badboy, I've heard of OODA in Andy's articles, he gave a basic description of it, any good reading on the Net to deepen my knowledge of this subject? Thank you, even for this new chart! :aok
Ok, here is an extract from part one of my series of lectures on the OODA loop.
The OODA loop was originated a number of years ago by a USAF fighter pilot and highly thought of tactician Colonel John Boyd. His OODA loop stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act...this being the decision process that a pilot goes through in solving any given BFM problem during an engagement. For example, if you see you opponent change his flight path with an aileron roll, you are in the “Observe” phase of the loop. You then need to comprehend what effect your opponents changes will have on the situation, so now you are in the “Orient” phase. Now you need to make a decision from the many options available, and while doing that you are in the “Decide” phase. Finally, you need to execute that decision with a manoeuvre of your own, so you are in the “Act” phase of the loop, and so it continues.
When I teach this to flight sim’ pilots I prefer to call it the "Boyd Cycle" (when I call it the Boyd loop, some folk expect it to involve a loop manoeuvre) and I explain that the pilot who consistently completes the cycle faster gains an advantage that increases with each cycle. Because the gains are additive the slower pilot becomes increasingly slower by comparison and therefore less effective until, finally, he is overcome by events.
So how does this theory apply to tactics in air combat? I've worked out some examples, but firstly, although gains in the loop can be made in any of the phases, I’m just going to consider just the "Action" phase. For example there is a large variation in roll rate for WWII aircraft and so those that have higher roll rates allow the pilot to complete the "action" phase more quickly, thereby allowing him to stay inside his opponent’s Boyd loop. This can be very powerful. For example, it is possible to defeat an aircraft with superior level turn performance, from a neutral position and ending with a guns solution, by using just a roll rate advantage. When inexperienced pilots see this, they are amazed that they have an aircraft that can out turn their opponent, yet they can't kill it. The reason is that the pilot of the aircraft with the superior roll rate can use manoeuvres that take advantage of the roll rate and increase their advantage incrementally every time they use it. Here is a concrete example.
Suppose we have Aircraft A and Aircraft B and suppose that the Aircraft A can turn at 18dps and has a 2dps turn rate advantage over Aircraft B that turns at 16dps. Normally, 2dps would be considered a decisive advantage in Air Combat, so Pilot A would be expected to win. However, suppose pilot B had a 120dps roll rate and that Pilot A has a 60dps role rate. Now consider what happens in a turn…
A and B are turning hard for 10 seconds say, and so pilot A gains 20 degrees on pilot B and thinks he’s winning the fight. But now B rolls 120 degrees and then continues turning. To follow him pilot A will need to roll for 2 seconds, but pilot B actually completed his 120 degrees roll in one second, so he was able to continue his turn for a full second while pilot A was still completing his roll, at 16dps that means pilot B just gained back 16 of the 20 degrees. Ok, I hear you thinking, Pilot A is still 4 degrees ahead, all he now needs to do is keep turning for the kill. Not so fast… The moment pilot B sees pilot A complete his roll and begin to turn into him again, pilot B repeats his previous 120 degree roll in another direction and now gains another 16 degrees. At the end of that pair of manoeuvres, pilot B with the inferior turning aircraft will be 12 degrees farther around than his opponent, and he will gain another 16 degrees every time he does it. Of course, I only picked those numbers because they were easy to work with, they aren’t important, it is the principle that counts. As Boyd said "Time becomes the critical determinant of combat advantage".
After all that, we have still only been discussing the “Act” part of the cycle. When you consider the other parts of the cycle, there are other factors that have an effect on the outcome. For simulation pilots the “Observe” phase is influenced by the viewing system used, the icons, radar, and even the game resolution all provide different visual cues. Their interpretation can lead to different perceptions and estimates of the combat situation. So “Orient” is about understanding what you see, and different levels of comprehension will compel pilots to make different decisions. Inexperienced pilots are more likely to use pure "G for brains", and pull directly into the bandit, while pilots better versed in the subtleties of air combat are likely to have a more complete three dimensional perspective, and thus be able to find more efficient solutions to BFM problems. So the “Orient” phase is about understanding the situation you are in, the implications of the bandits actions, and what you need to do about it, and there may well be several options. That of course leads to the “Decide” phase, and has other influences, for example how many solutions there are, how much fuel or ammo you have remaining, the proximity of other aircraft… and so on. Each phase takes some time and Boyd’s proposition was that the successful pilot will be able to process his OODA loop more rapidly than his opponent. In his own words the successful pilot would "get inside his adversary's loop", thereby forcing the opponent to always react defensively. Boyd once said while describing what it was like to operate inside his opponent’s OODA loop: “It’s like they’re moving in slow motion.” And there are many who can confirm, that is exactly what it is like to fight new pilots online…
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Thanks Badboy, interesting reading. You said it's part of a series of lectures you did on OODA, have you "published" them anywhere? I think it is a good reading for most of us, here. And did Boyd enunciate his theory in a single writing, or those quotes are taken from various of his works?
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Never mind my second question, Badboy, I found Boyd's writings: here's the link, in case anyone is interested.
A discourse on winning and losing (http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/boyd_military.htm#discourse)
I think it's all he wrote, isn't it?
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Interesting. Can I make what I hope will be seen a constructive suggestion? The three charts in the original post use red or blue lines to represent each aircraft. However, the Mk VIII is marked as red in the first chart and blue in the third, meaning you have to work out which is which for yourself in the second, as there is no reference in that particular chart, though the text helps clarify this. For the sake of clarity, sticking with one colour for each aircraft and puting a key on each chart makes them a easier to follow. This is not meant as a criticism and I may have missed something, maybe it was intentional? Red denoting superiority?
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Originally posted by Shane
I still say equal pilots, spitXVI will win the majority of the duels.
My apologies, I didn’t even test the Mk XVI because I assumed it would compare more closely to the XIV, but now I have tested it, I see it is much closer to the VIII than I expected. The diagram below shows the comparison.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/AH2-SpitXVI-v-SpitVIII.jpg)
The performance is very similar, the XVI being slightly faster, slighter better Ps performance and climb rate. The difference is very small as you can see, but combined with more than a 50% improvement in roll rate means I agree, given equal pilots, it should win the majority of duels.
Well spotted Shane!
Badboy
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Originally posted by KD303
Interesting. Can I make what I hope will be seen a constructive suggestion?
Yep, just sloppy work on my part... I'll try to be more careful.
Badboy
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Badboy,
Good work on the Spit 16 chart.
Over the years I have collected as many of your charts as I could find. They've been a great reference and I'm really glad to see your making them again.
Two questions:
Could we get a chart or comparison chart with the ki-84 and the spit 8?
Secondly, is there a way to combine charts of the same plane but no flaps, 1 notch flaps, 2 notch flaps....ect. Assuming the flaps are dropped at the first available speed. For instance the Ki-84 has a remarkably different turn capability at 150mph depending on whether you have flaps out. I am imagining that such a chart would show the far left stall line not as a smooth curve but as a series of notches as the flaps come out.
I ask this because I'm sure if we compare a Ki-84 standard chart with a Spit 8, the Ki-84 loses. But if we include the Ki-84 pilot using his flaps, the Ki-84 will win the sustained turn fight, even if the Spit uses his flaps too.
Of course the Ki-84 pilot has to survive the initial turn rate advantage the Spit enjoys before the Ki-84 is able to get his flaps out. Against a good Spit pilot that is unlikley since HTC has modeled the Ki-84's flaps to deploy at an [editorial comment] unrealistically low speed.
Thanks again for your performance chart additions to the AH2 community.
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MOSQ,
Just for your info, I also thought that the ki 84's combat flaps speed limit was unrealisticaly low. So I researched it, even got a copy of the actual pilots notes ( in japanese) and had them translated. Im sad to say that as far as I can tell Hitech are on the money. Though I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
I'd also like to see the EM charts for the ki.
Regards
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FTJR,
My gut feeling is that the steps described in the notes are the landing stages, not the combat stage. I have no evidence of that other than with a limit of 167mph for a combat stage makes said combat stage mostly useless.
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Originally posted by Mosq
Could we get a chart or comparison chart with the ki-84 and the spit 8?
Secondly, is there a way to combine charts of the same plane but no flaps, 1 notch flaps, 2 notch flaps....ect.
I'd like to have a Hayate chart, too, but, most of all, Badboy, I'd like you to tell us what is the way you gather the data to draw the chart... so we can make the work for various settings without bothering you... I'd like to make some charts by myself (well, I'd like to try! :p)
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FTJR and Karnak,
I've found info on the internet about pilot praise for the Ki-43's manouvering flaps, which I believe were carried over to the Ki-84. But again, they never mention the speeds they would deploy them at.
There has to be some pilot memoires of Ki-84 pilots discussing the use of their flaps, just wish we could find them
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Originally posted by Badboy
The performance is very similar, the XVI being slightly faster, slighter better Ps performance and climb rate. The difference is very small as you can see, but combined with more than a 50% improvement in roll rate means I agree, given equal pilots, it should win the majority of duels.
Badboy
Thnx Badboy!
Anyone know the wieght and H.P. of the spit8 and 16? I assumed the 16 would have a worse sustained turn due to the modified wing.
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Originally posted by Virage
Anyone know the wieght and H.P. of the spit8 and 16? I assumed the 16 would have a worse sustained turn due to the modified wing.
They have pretty much the same engine, so the power should be the same.
The Merlin 266 in the Spit XVI is just an American built version of the Merlin 66 in the MK VIII.
It seems to me that the Spit XVI may be climbing a bit too well or the Mk VIII not well enough and that the Mk VIII is not rolling as well as it should. It rolls 10 degrees/sec slower than any othe rmetal aileroned Spitfire in AH, even the Mk XIV which has the same ailerons. The clipped wings on the MK XVI widened the turning circle by abiut 40ft at sea level, getting worse the higher it goes and reduced the climb rate by about 200ft/min.
Weights:
Spitfire F.Mk VIII (with Merlin 61):
Tare: 5861lbs
Normal Load: 7831lbs
Spitfire Mk XVI:
Tare: 5607lbs
All up weight: 7549lbs
The increased weight of the Mk VIII should be due to the lead edge fuel tanks, full span wings and retractable tail wheel. There may have been some strengthening of the structure as well, I'm not sure of that. I also don't know what the weight difference between the Merlin 61 and Merlin 66/266 were.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Badboy,
Good work on the Spit 16 chart.
Over the years I have collected as many of your charts as I could find. They've been a great reference and I'm really glad to see your making them again.
Two questions:
Could we get a chart or comparison chart with the ki-84 and the spit 8?
Secondly, is there a way to combine charts of the same plane but no flaps, 1 notch flaps, 2 notch flaps....ect. Assuming the flaps are dropped at the first available speed. For instance the Ki-84 has a remarkably different turn capability at 150mph depending on whether you have flaps out. I am imagining that such a chart would show the far left stall line not as a smooth curve but as a series of notches as the flaps come out.
I ask this because I'm sure if we compare a Ki-84 standard chart with a Spit 8, the Ki-84 loses. But if we include the Ki-84 pilot using his flaps, the Ki-84 will win the sustained turn fight, even if the Spit uses his flaps too.
Of course the Ki-84 pilot has to survive the initial turn rate advantage the Spit enjoys before the Ki-84 is able to get his flaps out. Against a good Spit pilot that is unlikley since HTC has modeled the Ki-84's flaps to deploy at an [editorial comment] unrealistically low speed.
Thanks again for your performance chart additions to the AH2 community.
My experience with Ki-84 vs Spit 5 is several months and probably a couple versions out of date, but in my experience that is accurate. The Spit 5 has a marked advantage off the merge, but the Ki-84 can eat away at that advantage unless it dies on the 1st/2nd merge. Against a decent shot, it will die on the 1st/2nd merge 100% of the time though, because even if you pull as hard as the plane will go, you still leave the Spit with an incredibly easy planform shot.
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Originally posted by MajWoody
The new cockpits seem WAY too fat & wide to me.
Woody that will make you look slimmer and the chicks dig slim spit pilots...
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Just a Huge salute to the mention of Boyd--his OODA loop--and the depth of research here. The man was a hero in the strictest sense of the word. he fought (and won) many battles in the Pentagon for a fighter pilots plane--not the one-size fits all most military contractors and some high brass wanted (ie F-14--variable geometry wings will NOT work--for a fighter plane--ever) his opinion of the F-111: paint em yellow and use them for line taxis. Needless to say--we can thank him for the F-16, F-15 and many other victories that have saved lives and won fights.
Bravo Zulu--Badboy <<>>:aok
Kudzu31
P.S. The book, his unofficial bio is a great read. A real eye-opener on how aircraft procurment and systems testing is really done--usually to the the tune of the contractor with the biggest knee pads and fattest wallet!
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Hey Lew,
I never thought of that:aok
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Kudos Badboy!
Thanks for compiling the info!!!
Just how do you come up with the charts?
Regards,
Mike:)
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Are charts available anywhere for all the popular fighters?
Had a few fights with Badboy last night. I was in the VIII and XVI and BB in XVI. It quickly became apparent in the VIII that the 'small margin' on the chart can seem much bigger in combat!
pitzz
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Originally posted by pitzz
Are charts available anywhere for all the popular fighters?
Unfortunately, I haven’t done most of them. I have done quite a lot of the aircraft, and I zipped up a lot of the diagrams and posted them in a thread here once, but the diagrams were all pre AHII. I’ve done a few AHII aircraft but I haven’t been very active over the last year because I’ve been very busy at work. I think that busy period is behind me now, so I’m hoping to do more.
Fun fights by the way!
Badboy
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Never mind my second question, Badboy, I found Boyd's writings: here's the link, in case anyone is interested.
A discourse on winning and losing (http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/boyd_military.htm#discourse)
I think it's all he wrote, isn't it?
Gian,
The guy actually wrote a great deal. He was a teacher at the AF dogfighting school, and was a gifted natural who thought like an engineer. He put together what seems to be the first manual of air combat, the Air Combat Study. Although not classified, it is VERY hard to track down -- fortunately, because he wrote out the move, countermove, and counter-countermove for almost every situation adn its permutations.
He also invented the concept of EM diagrams, as a tool for explaining flight envelopes to Air Force brass that seemed pretty clueless to the pilots' reality.
He then spent a great deal of time and thought to the nature of combat, and the philosophy of conflict. This is the portion of his career that produced the OOAD loop -- which he explored in extensive detail and subdetail, so the actual briefing took hours and involved complex subroutines.
Towards the end of his career as a theorist, he thought abotu the nature of knowledge and reality... not bad for a fighter jock.
Unfortunately, the guy was a Class A jerk. Despite (or because of?) his brilliance, he was shunted around in the bureacracy and was generally a pain to everyone around him -- including his friends and acolytes. He loved to bait incompetents, even if they were his superiors, adn woudl brag about having "hosed" (as in sprayed with tracers) big wigs in an argument.
He was a pain to his family as well, with damaged relationships and bad behavior in general. For example, when watching the The Blue Max in its original theater release, he got so worked up during the ACM portions that he talked louder and louder -- until he finally stood up and shouted "Hose the F***er!! Never seemed to get the idea of how he looked to other people...
Consequently, he's not well known in the Air Force.... but he's a hero to the Marine Corps, where his OOAD loop became the foundation of the USMC philosophy of battle. He is, to my understanding, the only Air Force officer to have a "globe and anchor" placed on his coffin as an official act of respect from the Corps.
Boyd: the fighter pilot who changed the art of war is a good biography and history.
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Just a little tid-bit.
Badboy's measurements on the Spit8 turn radius is 533ft with 25% fuel. My figures are 560ft with 75%.
His figures for the Spit5 with 25% fuel is 516.0ft, mine is 515.1ft at 75% fuel.
...
I'm just glad my own figures aren't totally off. :)
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Thanks Simaril, nice write-up. A pity I couldn't find much more of his writings... guess I have to dig deeper on the net. ;)
Btw, talking about A2A tactics, I recently found at Simhq (I don't browse it often, now that Mr Bush and Badboy don't write new articles :p)this PDF file (http://www.simhq.com/_air/PDF/NGNG.pdf) (8 Mb) of a book written by another USAF pilot, Frederick C. Blesse, after the Korean war. I didn't read it yet, but you may want to take a look at it.
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I have often wondered about the usefullness of trying to do things 'by numbers' by which I mean if the target does 'a' then you do 'b or c or d' or whatever. Ever tried using this method for sex?
Way back in my second youth when I was flying aerobatics I read books with diagrams and associated spiel but when I was up there I forgot it all and found that looking out the window, keeping your eye on a spot or line and flying the aircraft accordingly worked better. I've read loads of stuff about ACM but, thinking about it, I can't remember a word of it except for 'lose sight, lose the fight' and relative performance data. I suspect that 95% of flight sim fights between equal opponents that know their aircraft and can use them are lost due to losing sight or taking on a superior plane under the wrong conditions rather than an in depth knowledge of ACM.
One of the best 'one on one' sim pilots I knew was 'lem' from Warbirds JG3. In an 'inferior' plane he somehow managed to stay just outside your envelope while gaining energy with no fancy manoevres. He knew exactly where you were, knew exactly what you were capable of and knew exactly what his aircraft was capable of.
Which is why I consider BB's charts more important than anything else except trying to eliminate blind spots from your view system. Of course, as in real life, there are those aces who have studied advanced ACM's and are able to perform them instinctively but they are a rarity I suspect.
After 20 years of sim flying, I've long since lost the competitive urge but flying around in AH is a pleasure this old boy would be very reluctant to give up.
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By the way Badboy, what happened to the data plate info I thought you were going to include in future?
Thanks
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Originally posted by kudzu
(ie F-14--variable geometry wings will NOT work--for a fighter plane--ever)
I know some F-14 drivers that would dissagree with that statement. Ever seen an F-16 or F-15 fire a Phoenix missle?