Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on January 10, 2001, 08:00:00 AM
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Vermont State Rep. Fred Maslack has read the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as well as Vermont's own Constitution very carefully, and his strict interpretation of these documents is popping some eyeballs in New England and elsewhere.
Maslack recently proposed a bill to register non-gunowners and require them to pay a $500 fee to the state. Thus Vermont would become the first state to require a permit for the luxury of going about unarmed and assess a fee of $500 for the privilege of not owning a gun.
Maslack read the "militia" phrase of the Second Amendment as not only affirming the right of the individual citizen to bear arms, but as a clear mandate to do so. He believes that universal gun ownership was advocated by the Framers of the Constitution as an antidote to a "monopoly of force" by the government as well as criminals.
Vermont's constitution states explicitly that "the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State" and those persons who "conscientiously scrupulous of bearing arms" shall be required to "pay such equivalent." Clearly, says Maslack, Vermonters have a constitutional obligation to arm themselves so that they are capable of responding to "any situation that may arise".
Under the bill, adults who choose not to own a firearm would be required to register their name, address, Social Security Number, and driver's license number with the state. "There is a legitimate government interest in knowing who is prepared to defend the state should they be asked to do so," Maslack says.
Vermont already boasts a high rate of gun ownership along with the least restrictive laws of any state - it's currently the only state that allows a citizen to carry a concealed firearm without a permit. This combination of plenty of guns and few laws regulating them has resulted in a crime rate that is the third lowest in the nation.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Snot.
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I agree with the Vermont guy!! I also say everyone should buy a carton of Cigs a week. Those that don't should be arrested for child abuse. You see, a poor child health care government program is funded by a tax on tobacco!! It's time you started to pay your fair share!!!
If ya don't smoke just give your carton to a friend that smokes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) You will appear as a generous person (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Helping your friend and America's under privileged children. "It takes a village" ya know!!!
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All I know is this would make Tinky Winky very sad!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Bye bye! Bye bye!
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Please not another gun-control thread, im sick of reading opinons from brits and wherever who dont even live here pissing all over our right to bear arms. I dont mind people from the USA saying it stupid, because they actually live here and think that way from some valid experences that they have had, not some idgit screaming its wrong because some nanny and his professor at the finishing school said that guns are bad and that the barbaric americans have them because they are dumb violent people, this coming from people with hot tea, crazy cows, and bad teeth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I would assume that once this kind of bill is established everywhere - we can disband army and all the other armed forces - since we will be unbeatable ?
This is about as retarded as it gets....
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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LOL,
All able bodied citizens, Men and Women, should be required to muster for two years service in the military, then upon completion of such service be required to keep and maintain a well regulated fully automatic weapon with 2000 rounds ammuntion.
Leonid, you whimp (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!
LOL!
Yeager
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FDSKI- would you tell that to the Russians please? A friend of mine in the Navy had a sort of "Open House' with a Russain naval vessel in NYC back in 1990, during the dissolve of the Cold War. He had a chance to speak with a high ranking member of the Soviet Navy, and asked him one simple question: "Would have the Soviet Union ever thought it may be successful in attacking the U.S. without nuclear weapons, but in a convention weapons style war?"
His answer was "No, because your citizens are armed and it would be very difficult for us to elminate the privately-owned firearms your citizens carry."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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WOW!
Wouldn't that piss off the libs!
Oh Well, they can always move to Massachussetts.
After a generation growing up on Sesame Street and Barney it is refreshing to see someone actually has the balls to bring the issue up.
Any non smokers who decide to support the efforts against child abuse can send their cigarettes to me.
Hey The Wobble, ya got a choice ya know.
If you are sick of reading opinions on a particular subject....Don't.
Ain't Tinky Winky a Brit?
{Oh my, is it PC to call an English wimpy, huggy imaginary T.V. character a Brit?
Will I be roasted for my obviously right wing tendencies?}
[Probably, not, as soon as they figure out you actually type stuff to yourself they will probably write you off as the nut case you are.]
{But, what if TW gets upset, whatever will I do?}
[Do not concern yourself 'Chaser, in a couple days this thread will be buried with the other 7 zillion and somthing new will surface to irk the right or left leaners and the medication should kick in any minute now.]
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Oh the possibilities. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Here's the plan! We all win Powerball. We all go out and buy our favorite WWII fighter and a Township of land. Then we buy out every junk yard in the state. Then, Then! We arm all of these planes with there original arms. Then! We fly around strafing the hell out of all these old cars! It's way better than having an engine hanging in the tree and an old car with the hood up in the front yard! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The state of Oregon is fairly liberal on there gun ownership also.
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Also, for anti-gun rights folks, read this and read it carefully, think you'll be surprised that the states with the LEAST gun control laws actually have been shown to have less violent crimes, again, you take away gun rights from private citizens, you make them more vulnerable to criminals.
http://www.enterstageright.com/0101wakefield.htm (http://www.enterstageright.com/0101wakefield.htm)
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Just so you know my 1st replay is tongue in cheek. I own several guns. If I won Powerball I'd run out and buy a P-47 (because I hear the cockpit will handle taller people) and find a state that would let me arm the dang thing so I could blow the snot outta junk cars on my property. So there! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) Fun for the whole family. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-10-2001).]
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so, if you have a M16, AK47 and a M60 in your house, you get a $ surplus from the state?
(oh, my (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-10-2001).]
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One word: REDNECKS
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LOL! Tac, noo this goes beyone redneck, we are talking milita-neck, folks that convert their bedroom into a gun safe, You know you are dealing with one of these folks when he asks you "goin deer huntin, should I use JHP,AP, or HE? (evil grin after HE). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
LOL! Tac, noo this goes beyone redneck, we are talking milita-neck, folks that convert their bedroom into a gun safe, You know you are dealing with one of these folks when he asks you "goin deer huntin, should I use JHP,AP, or HE? (evil grin after HE). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well now ya towk'in my lingo boy! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) In these here parts we like a good clean kill when shoot'in at some food. Ya gonna need that hide fer a winter jacket boy. You save them there HE rounds for cousin Billy Bob who's always try'in to climb in to your daughters winder. Don't they learn you all noth'in in the big city boy! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
"People let me tell ya story about a man named Jed. Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed. Then one day he was shoot'in at some food, up from the ground came a bubble'in crude. Oil that is. Black gold. Texas tea..." WEEEEEEELL DOGGIES!
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-10-2001).]
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I believe there are things in life worth dying for!
Do you?
Yeager
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Originally posted by Yeager:
I believe there are things in life worth dying for!
Do you?
Yeager
Yep and I'll list them.
My Family
My Country
My Faith
My Constitutional rights as a U.S. Citizen.
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Originally posted by Tac:
One word: REDNECKS
yep !
Rip for me you are comparing apples and oranges (city or country it that case)... but this time I won't discuss or I will do but in French so I'll have no difficulty to express my point of view withtout being misunderstood (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Define 'Redneck'.
I live close to the city.
I've bartended in one of the busiest restaurants in DownTown Seattle.(Some of my clients were footbal stars, Lawyers, even the Mayor of the city at the time.)
Before I was married, I used to go downtown Seattle all the time.
I also happen to like to shoot handguns.
I like to hunt.
I admire those who fought and died for this country.
SO, if that makes me a redneck in your eye's, so be it.
Again, if you catagorize everyone that believes in his or her freedoms to be a redneck, then you're looking at a population of 300 million rednecks in the U.S.
Straffo, were there not Frenchmen that died during WW2 for what they believed in? Are they too rednecks?
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by Yeager:
I believe there are things in life worth dying for!
Do you?
Yeager
Yes, Yeager. Why'd you ask that?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Rip,
Your words seem a little tense (redneck reference aside). Is there another reason for starting this thread? Did something happen?
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Hehe,no Leonid...just been reading alot of anti-gun articles lately in regards to the mass shooting in Mass...which ironically has the toughest gun control laws in the U.S., which just goes to prove my point once again, you can take guns away from law-abiding citizens, but the criminals and wacko's will ALWAYS have them.
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Originally posted by Yeager:
I believe there are things in life worth dying for!
Do you?
Yeager
Your quote was after my reply. If it was directed at me you might want to read the page a little more thoroughly before you ask. I think you will see in an earlier reply what I think if you read between the line just a little. If it isn't directed at me I think things are getting a little to serious for me and I'm not going to comment further on a some bulletin board on a web page. I generally reserve these conversations to friends and family that I find worth spending the time defining my beliefs with. I'm in here to have fun and make friends not argue over realign and politics. I think if those kind of things began to creep into the game we will see Gas on there everyday (if any of you remembers that little incident the other day). I look at these bulletin boards as a direct extension of the game. They are offered as part of AH. I'm sure a lot of you don't think that and that is your business. But I will keep things on the common courtesy side myself. I will not go into any depth on here about religion and politics. And when your asking about things to die for that's what your basically talking about.
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I believe there are things in life worth dying for!
Do you?
Yeager
There is a difference between being willing to die for what you believe in and being eager to die for it.
Also, being willing to die for what you believe in does not make your belief right.
AKDejaVu
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Sorry Rip was responding to an mix upper message in the thread I should have quoted you to make my point clear and I clearly fumbled (if it's the right term).
Please,accept my apologies.
The redneck for me was for comparing what can happen in a city with 20 000 000 citizen and a town of 20 000 it's obvious (I hope) that there is and will be more criminality in big city than in smaller.
I live in a town of 37 000 citizen surrounded by cow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Again, if you catagorize everyone that believes in his or her freedoms to be a redneck, then you're looking at a population of 300 million rednecks in the U.S.
Was no what I intented to say (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I admire those who fought and died for this country.
As I've said in another thread I live in Normandie and I know the blood price payed by young men there's 56 years.I've not to make a long trip to visit des cimetiaires
I also happen to like to shoot handguns.
I like to hunt.
I do also (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) but I'm against the weapon at home ! especially for self-defense but it's more due to the fact that here it's pretty rare to be attacked with a gun.
And in case of an attack my gun is useless with 2 parts 20 meter from each other and no ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (you know child can do stupid thinks!)
Straffo, were there not Frenchmen that died during WW2 for what they believed in? Are they too rednecks?
Don't think so
downtown Seattle
I know that in US the city have not the same structure than in Europe but I don't know if DownTown is the red part or not can you explain further please ?
note to self : when tired don't try to write in foreign language at all ,an try to thing a minimun.
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Reminds me a Quote from a Movie (something to do with underground monsters Part II, with Kevin Bacon...)
"If ya need it and don't have it, you're an ar*e !" (Talking about a very BIG gun he had in his cellar, hehehe...)
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Tremors II
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"Yep and I'll list them.
My Family
My Country
My Faith
My Constitutional rights as a U.S. Citizen."
Mine stops on the first one... and i'll add 'my species' as my second. The rest is just crap we humans make up so we can fight each other. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
A redneck is the kind of person that finds joy in owning things that will give him/her power over others. Aka, guns, big trucks (when they live in the middle of a city and work in an office), etc.
"you can take guns away from law-abiding citizens, but the criminals and wacko's will ALWAYS have them"
Problem is Rip, that those wacko's were once law-abiding citizens. Look at the shooting at those high schools, they had easy access to weapons, they got ticked off and went hormone ballistic (as most teenagers that are bullied get). That is the real problem.
If a criminal WANTS a gun he will get it anyway and will use it. A ban on guns will not change that nor the fact that the criminal will use them or acquire them... but it will prevent kids from shooting in schools, shooting themselves at home when they played with "daddys cool gun", rednecks pulling a gun to show they have power over you (happened to me once), proto-rednecks deciding they have a chance of gunning down the before stated criminal in the middle of the supermarket and thus creating a situation where dozens of people, including kids, get killed or wounded right by the comic book section.
... need I go on?
Dont need gun control. Need a total gun ban. If you like guns and want to protect what you stated above using a weapon, go to the military or become a police officer.
If not get a bow and arrow, learn martial arts, use your wits. If a criminal comes to threaten your home with a gun you sure as hell are at a disadvantage to begin with.
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"Dont need gun control. Need a total gun ban. If you like guns and want to protect what "you stated above using a weapon, go to the military or become a police officer.
If not get a bow and arrow, learn martial arts, use your wits. If a criminal comes to threaten your home with a gun you sure as hell are at a disadvantage to begin with. "
1. Police themselves have stated that they cannot protect anyone, and that 90% of the time all they will be able to do is fill out a police report after the crime has been commited.
2.i havent seen myny solders on the streets to protect us either.
3.Criminals will always have guns, banning them will just let the criminals rest assured that they can break in, tie you up and rap yer daughter without being shot.
4. Even if guns were banned in the US, who would turn them in??...I lost all mine, they fell in a lake while i was fishing...nope no guns here have a nice day officer, good luck getting all them guns from them crazy people who for some reason feel they are responsible for protecting their famlies.
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The nut case in Mass. that shot his co-workers, why haven't the ppl for gun control been all over the TV demanding new laws to limit guns. Heck, they were all over TV in the Denver Highschool shooting thingie,why not the Mass. thingie? Haven't heard a thing about this guy since his hearing for bail!!
What's different about Mass. then Co.? This guy had bomb stuff and everything!!
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Paintball gun in full CO2 power loaded with marbles... and a TAZER. Please, come into my house uninvited *grin*.
You got some kind of valid point there wobble, but the thing is, if someone is in your home already you are in serious toejam no matter what. Putting resistance with a firearm only increases the danger to the occupants. Most households would have to a) get the gun, b) load it with ammo (hmm.. 1 or 2 minutes go by) and c) get the bad guy without shooting the other occupants of the house by mistake or get them killed in any shootout that may occur. In any case, you are just putting yourself and your family in MUCH more danger.
A gun in the house will only give you a false sense of security, thats all. A dog is much, much better (plus you get it to bring you the paper..something the darn wife and kids wont do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
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"Paintball gun in full CO2 power loaded with marbles... and a TAZER. Please, come into my house uninvited *grin*."
Tac, there is no better way to ensure that you will be killed than that. I woulden even bother with a 22 (unless I had some CCI Stingers in it)
Also
1. If you have a gun in your house it should only be locked up during the day when you are away, at night when it may be needed it it should be loaded and easy for YOU to get to, if you have kids, then by all means lock it up during the day and unload.
2. "Putting resistance with a firearm only increases the danger to the occupants"
Well the only person I see it dangering is the amazinhunk trying to get ya, im not a criminal but if I was breaking in to a house and I heard someone say "IVE GOT A GUN!" I would probably leave, even if I had a gun thats still only a 50/50 chance of walking out of there, and I dont know many people crazy or not who would go with them odds. However if i did not have a gun what is my choice??..nothing, I just have to hope and pray that this phycho is only gonna steel all my toejam and maby only beat the toejam outta me...thats yer best option, the others get worse and of course there is death...
2.telling yourself that the police or someone else will take care of you if someone is gonna try to break in is "a false sense of security" not being prepared and ready to defend your home and family.
3. Guns dont give a false sense of security, they give you a real chance of having a real waco coming into your house and still living through it.
"get the bad guy without shooting the other occupants of the house by mistake"
There is a bullet designed ESPECALLY to prevent this, it called the Bule Tip Safty Slug, it is specally designed so that whenever it hits anything remotly solid it practically vaporizes, you cannot oven shoot through a thin sheetrock wall with one, however on soft tissue it acts as a normal round,
BTW. I have a tazer and the only use i give it is to fire my giant potato gun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BUT the main point is the fact that no matter what opinions anyone has, and even if guns were banned in the US (which they will never be) there is no way in hell that the gov could enforce it, I have several guns, two of which are VERY expensive Heckler and Koch weapons, (SL8 and UBS 40) and the goverment will NEVER take them. I dont care if they were to come to my door, they would never get anything, not even my old musket that wont even shoot. Thas the one thing the media is good for in America, right now it seems against guns, but if someone were to get killed or even roughed up for not turning over guns and fighting the cope he/she would INSTANTLY be raised to god like statud by the media as this poor guy who just want to protect his family.
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Tac said in quotes:
A redneck is the kind of person that finds joy in owning things that will give him/her power over others. Aka, guns, big trucks (when they live in the middle of a city and work in an office), etc.
Funny, all my friends (all NRA registered)who are gun owners are the last people on earth who would want 'power' over anyone! They use their guns for pleasure and sport. Big trucks? I drive to the city in a big truck, but guess what, I use that truck for everything from hauling dirt to pulling a trailer, to picking up large objects that won't fit on a Geo-metro...and my truck gets better gas milege than half the CARS being driven on the road! (21 mpg)
Problem is Rip, that those wacko's were once law-abiding citizens. Look at the shooting at those high schools, they had easy access to weapons, they got ticked off and went hormone ballistic (as most teenagers that are bullied get). That is the real problem.
Don't you think this is a problem that begins with the parents? First, there are little tell-tale signs of your child going alittle haywire (look at the kids websites that killed in columbine)..second, a prudent gun owner has his guns either disassembled or locked up where a kid cannot have access to them (this day and age, when I grew up, we had 20 guns leaning against the wall in the closet, but my father spent many hours with me discussing firearms and their proper usage) It starts with the family...after all, the gun didn't jump up off the table and kill those kids, a human being did.
... rednecks pulling a gun to show they have power over you (happened to me once),
Sounds like what you encountered was a criminal in my book, sure, he may have a so-called 'redneck background', but again, where do YOU define the difference between a redneck and a criminal? You can have both, but the majority of my friends could be labeled a 'redneck' by you, however the last thing you'd ever see them doing is pointing a gun at another human being.
Dont need gun control. Need a total gun ban. If you like guns and want to protect what you stated above using a weapon, go to the military or become a police officer.
Interesting, Stalin, Hitler, even Hussain feel this way too.
If not get a bow and arrow, learn martial arts, use your wits. If a criminal comes to threaten your home with a gun you sure as hell are at a disadvantage to begin with.
I know martial arts, but I practice it not for self-defense, but for the ART of th excercise itself. Same applies for a gun, I use guns for pleasure and sport, to use one in self defense is a by-product of the societal level of an individual that *may* threaten my life, or a family members life.
If it ain't a gun doing the killing, it would be poisonous gas in a subway, or a meat clever, or car to run another human down with...in other words, its the social upbringing of an individual, not the means by which they commit a crime.
And I quote:
"Is your life worth protecting? If so, whose responsibility is it to protect it? If you believe that it is the police's, not
only are you wrong -- since the courts universally rule that they have no legal obligation to do so -- but you face some difficult moral quandaries. How can you rightfully ask another human being to risk his life to protect yours, when you will assume no responsibility yourself? Because that is his job and we pay him to do it? Because your life is of incalculable value, but his is only worth the $30,000 salary we pay him? If you believe it reprehensible to possess the means and will to use lethal force to repel a criminal assault, how can you call upon another to do so for you?
Do you believe that you are forbidden to protect yourself because the police are better qualified to protect you, because they know what they are doing but you're a rank amateur? Put aside that this is equivalent to believing that only concert pianists may play the piano and only professional athletes may play sports. What exactly are these special qualities possessed only by the police and beyond the rest of us mere mortals?
One who values his life and takes seriously his responsibilities to his family and community will possess and cultivate the means of fighting back, and will retaliate when threatened with death or grievous injury to himself or a loved one. He will never be content to rely solely on others for his safety, or to think he has done all that is possible by being aware of his surroundings and taking measures of avoidance. Let's not mince words: He will be armed, will be trained in the use of his weapon, and will defend himself when faced with lethal violence.
Fortunately, there is a weapon for preserving life and liberty that can be wielded effectively by almost anyone --the handgun. Small and light enough to be carried habitually, lethal, but unlike the knife or sword, not demanding great skill or strength, it truly is the "great equalizer." Requiring only hand-eye coordination and a modicum of ability to remain cool under pressure, it can be used effectively by the old and the weak against the young and the strong, by the one against the many.
The handgun is the only weapon that would give a lone female jogger a chance of prevailing against a gang of thugs intent on rape, a teacher a chance of protecting children at recess from a madman intent on massacring them,a family of tourists waiting at a mid-town subway station the means to protect themselves from a gang of teens armed with razors and knives.
But since we live in a society that by and large outlaws the carrying of arms, we are brought into the fray of the Great American Gun War. Gun control is one of the most prominent battlegrounds in our current culture wars. Yet it is unique in the half-heartedness with which our conservative leaders and pundits -- our "conservative elite" --do battle, and have conceded the moral high ground to liberal gun control proponents. It is not a topic often written
about, or written about with any great fervor, by William F. Buckley or Patrick Buchanan. As drug czar, William Bennett advised President Bush to ban "assault weapons." George Will is on record as recommending the repeal of the Second Amendment, and Jack Kemp is on record as favoring a ban on the possession of semiautomatic "assault weapons." The battle for gun rights is one fought predominantly by the common man. The beliefs of both our liberal and conservative elites are in fact abetting the criminal rampage through our society.
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[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-12-2001).]
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Same sh*t, different day.
One side wants you to give up your personal responsibility and accountability to the all-knowing, all-perfect state.
The collective "state" is deemed the only entity wise enough and rational enough to conduct itself in a responsible and accountable manner and it will tell you what your proper actions are in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
The other side feels an individual should be allowed to do what he likes in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness as long as it doesn't interfere with another person's pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. In other words, it's the "your freedom to swing your fist around at the end of your arm ends just short of my nose" concept.
Coupled with this is the "innocent until proven guilty" concept that is so integral to our form of government.
Yeah, I have a gun. Until I misuse it, what business is it of yours? None, brother, absolutely none.
Everyone of you anti-gunners that drives a car has the *potential* to get drunk and drive. This is blatant misuse of a car. What business is it of mine until you do that? None, brother, absolutely none.
Yet the likelyhood of me being injured by a drunk driver is statistically much higher than me being injured by a person mis-using a firearm.
The never ending argument continues.
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Plus TOad,
When is the last time some idiot killed someone by running them over and the car company was blamed?
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I just hope it doesn't get to the point where most states eventually allow concealed weapons w/o permits. There is nothing civilized about a bunch of people walking in public, packing. If you feel the need to keep a firearm on your person while in public (or at home), then something's either seriously wrong with your brain, or the society you live in. That was the whole point to civilization, creating a society that raised the level of safety and security among its members.
Keep that in mind when you talk about bearing arms. If you honestly feel the need to have a firearm, then the society you live in is not very secure, is it? Which raises more important questions, like why isn't our society secure anymore? What does that say about our current level of social development in the USA? Is the United States now less civilized than countries like the UK, or Canada, or Germany, just to name a few?
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Leonid, the the most un-secure socity there could be is one where the criminals know that the populace has no means to defend it self. I have a conceled handgun permit and I carry almost all the tiem, not really my person so much but always in my car, it has for sure saved my life once so far, and 1 time is plenty enough to justify carrying one everywhere IMO.
"Is the United States now less civilized than countries like the UK, or Canada, or Germany, just to name a few"
I think it takes a pretty civilized country to trust its citizens enough to trust them with guns, unlike the ones who fear that their populace cant handle the right to protect themselves.
But i do concur that allowing EVERYONE to carry without a permit and testing and school for it and such would be a major mistake. Criminals should never EVER be able to own ANY kinda of gun, or a knife with over a 3 inch blade. As for the normal law abiding populace they havent done anything wrong so dont screw with them.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-13-2001).]
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I think you're missing my point, Wobble. The fact that many Americans demand ownership of firearms for reasons of security, indicates either paranoia, or a real social breakdown in this country. It's one thing to own firearms like rifles/shotguns for purposes of hunting, target-shooting, but quite another when there's a demand for handguns and assault rifles for reasons of security. The rise in ownership of such firearms is an indication of some flaw or degradation in our social system.
It doesn't bother me that so many people own firearms in the USA so much as why they own them, and I believe the overriding reason is security and safety. An industrialzed nation with the amount of wealth we possess should not possess a citizenry that feels so insecure as to be compelled to protect itself by their own means.
And you have only to look at other countries of similar stature to see that the level of internal insecurity among US citizens is unusual.
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Well leonid I think Your on to something and to tell ya the truith your right to a degree..i know many folks who say they want a gun for personal protection for their family and such as sort of an excuse to buy the child within a really cool toy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think the reason many people such as myself are so adamnet about keeping our guns for personal protection and such is the deep rooted fear that one day we will lose them, and as the saying goes "you will never really know the value of a possesion until you part with it" that holds true with almost anything. But with guns there is a further relm of protection to contend with, If guns were for fun and sport only taking them away would seem less evil, however the fact that the gun you own may one day save your life as well as your families greatly complicates things, the goverment wont and NEVER SHOULD consider taking away firearms simply because they would be sending criminals a written invitation that says "hey nobody can hurt You now"
But the bottom of the bottom lines is the simple fact that the criminal element will ALWAYS have firearms no matter what the gov does to outlaw them, so by taking them away, the goverment is doing 2 thing simutainously.
1. Rewarding the already armed criminal element with easyer prey.
2. Punishing the law abiding citizens by telling them it is no longer their right to protect their own lives.
In no twisted mind can that seem logical and just, yet gun rights activists try to twist it to look like all the hand gun killings are done by john Q public who bought his pistol at a gun store and who would have never kill that poor nun had he not had a gun.
gun rights folks like to dredge up colenbine (sp) as their major anti-gun weapon...well look at colenbine (sp) those kids had bombs ya know, so lets say that the gov had outlawed ALL guns and that these kids would not have been able to get ANY firearm of any kind, well then they would have just made more bombs and more powerful bombs and probably killed just as many or more people.. so there.
Another one they like to use is the so called "accidental household shooting" where the kid finds the gun and kills his friend on accident, well folks accidents happen, people die for stupid reasons every day by the thousands, every day hundreds ond hundreds of people are killed by cars accidentally...so why are we not all riding bicycles? cars are obviously dangerous and citizens should not have them because CARS KILL PEOPLE.
Guns in America are here to stay, no matter what the goverment says or anyone else, even if a law was passed that said "give up all personal firearms to the gov" it would never happen. why?
A. the media would immediatly defend the people who own guns and proclaim them just good people who want to protect themselves from criminals.
B. The media would turn the Goverment into Satan and would make the entire nation hate these horrid wretchid overbearing monsters who are stealing peoples right to protect themselves.
C. the gov knows that A and B will for sure happen if they try to take away peoples guns so they will NEVER attempt it.
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Originally posted by leonid:
It's one thing to own firearms like rifles/shotguns for purposes of hunting, target-shooting, but quite another when there's a demand for handguns and assault rifles for reasons of security. The rise in ownership of such firearms is an indication of some flaw or degradation in our social system.
I agree that it is a very strange paradox that people in the US feel the need to have a gun. I'm not saying that nothing will ever happen to me that will cause me to need to use my guns in self defense. I am saying that in all of the years I've owned guns (I got my first BB gun at 8 and my first .22 the next year) I've never felt the need to defend myself with one. I will say I feel I have the right to own them. I think it all comes back to a deep need in this country to "feel" like we can take control if things get outta hand. The ability to rise up against the government if it abuses power or to defend your family because you know the police can't be there 24hrs a day. It's the delicate balance of freedom vs police state that keeps this country free. We have an over all well balance system of checks and balances. There is the feeling of insecurity that come with knowing you have great latitude in this country to live as you please. That's what it's all about here. There are risks involved with being able to control your destiny. It's a great responsibility to make the big decisions. But that's what America is all about. The ability to live your life your way with out being able to step all over your neighbor. That also means being able to have control over your personal protection.
I would also like to say that I'm not sure which I'd rather be shot with. The .223cal or 9mm assault rifle that we're allowed to have or the .300 Winchester Magnum "deer rife" we may only be able to have. I put quotes around the deer rife because the dang thing will work just as well on a person.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-13-2001).]
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Please not another gun-control thread, im sick of reading opinons from brits and wherever who dont even live here pissing all over our right to bear arms. I dont mind people from the USA saying it stupid, because they actually live here and think that way from some valid experences that they have had, not some idgit screaming its wrong because some nanny and his professor at the finishing school said that guns are bad and that the barbaric americans have them because they are dumb violent people, this coming from people with hot tea, crazy cows, and bad teeth.
I'm just glad I'm an ocean away from your zenophobic, right-wing, gun-toting racist attitudes, Wobble.
But of course, according to your view-point, anybody who doesn't happen to be American shouldn't really be posting here.
Keep your tools shiny Wobble, those gooks are coming to get ya!
"...its real nice when an american gets kicked out of an american made game on an american service by squeaky gooks."
TheWobble, 11-28-2000
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 01-13-2001).]
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I no longer respond to Dowdings crap, all venting will be done on my web page so that You all dont have to suffer him cut and pasting everything I type over and over again.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-14-2001).]
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Sure guys, let's get an army of idiots in Vermont to all own guns. I'm sure that will help the problem with crime in this country drastically. What a bunch of hugahunks.
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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My .02 worth.
I carry a concealed weapon 100% of the time outside my home. I have a permit for it, I'm trained with it and completely confident in its use. At home, its locked up in a lifejacket with a quick release right next to my bed. There's a self-defense flashlight right next to it. I've taught my children about guns to preclude any problems there.
That said, my beliefs are obvious. What is not so obvious is that I wish I didn't need to carry a weapon. I am not paranoid but I do live in a high-crime area of a high-crime city and I have a responsiblity, nay, a duty to protect myself and my family. The police are not there to protect me, that is my job. You can take my money, take my car, take my house but try, just try to take my child and you will find out what a 40 cal 180 grain hydra shok feels like, just before fade to black.
The fact is that we live in a society where going armed makes sense. We live in a country where our rights to bear arms are guaranteed at the lowest level. We live in times where some moron will kill you over your tennis shoes. Just remember, Hitler was a proponent of gun control too. You brits, etc ought to be able to relate to that.
I don't like that I have to carry a weapon. BUT being prepared is far better than being a victim. Hopefully, I will NEVER have to use my weapon. Most of my training has involved how to avoid using the weapon so if I paid attention I should be able to spot and avoid trouble.
Having armed citizens makes the predators think twice about attacking. The uncertainty of the matter is often enough to prevent the crime.
My Glock won't help me against the Government, thats what the vote is for. But it will stop the madman. Pray that when the madman comes into your office that there is someone like me there too. I'll shoot to save your life too.
hatman, out
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I sure am getting getting sick of you hanging on a little phrase that you take out of context...
lol
How could you take that comment 'out of context'? How could that comment be taken any other way than a racial slur?
Your prolly the most ignorant person i have ever seen here and, your also just a little pot stirring idiot who's knowledge restricits him to being able to do nothing more than cut and paste threads from other people and call them names.
I'm so ignorant that I don't actually utilize racial slurs. Come on Wobble, you ain't kidding anyone.
BTW, I'm a graduate with a MSc, so I must be fairly knowledgeable in some field.
You moron...
Interesting. A moron is a mentally retarded person who has a potential mental age of between 8 and 12 years and is incapable of doing routine work without supervision.
Hehehe, if only you could see the job I have.
...you little manipulative studmuffin...
You crack me up. I'm 6 foot three and used to row and play football for my college - I ain't little. As for the 'studmuffin' bit - can't apply the racial slur, so revert to a sexual one? Tranparent in every way.
You are your pretty much restricted to trying to make other people hate people You dont like because You lack the intelegence to put up much a fight...
Unlike yourself, I can string a sentence together (with punctuation); I must therefore have some 'intelegence' [sic]. I don't understand the part about inciting hate.
If you'd been around the AH BB for a little longer, you'd know that the issue of gun control has been exhaustively debated/fought over for months. I've said all I have to say on it, and there is no reason why anyone should want to hear it again.
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I no longer respond to Dowdings crap, all venting will be done on my web page so that You all dont have to suffer him cut and pasting everything I type over and over again.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-14-2001).]
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TheWaffle add me to your page please so you will avoid respond to my messages too.
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lol Straffo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)