Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Morpheus on November 15, 2005, 12:49:01 PM
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Level bombers should only be allowed to drop bombs from F6 mode/when in bombs sight. The new sight is as idiot proof as you can get, yet we still have countless droves of players, including older players diving bombing FH's and CV's , you name it in formations of level bombers. You old players are teaching them that this is the "norm". That its the way its saposed to be done. What's the mater with you? I spent the morning flying around at 15k in 1 flight of b17s porking troops at 5 sectors worth of bases droping 1 salvo of 3 250lb bombs on only the barracks with 100% hit accuracy. I hardly ever get into bombers. If I can do it, so can the rest of you.
There should also be a time delay on bomb damage. If you die within seconds after droping your bombs, there is no damage done from those bombs. I think Hitech was working on this or even tried it a while back. IMO its a great idea and should be implemented in the MA.
The current game play needs to be looked at dealt with, not just *****ed about. I think that if these few things were changed it might help to fix a peice of it.
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I know the this will inevatably be a "BK whine" but I've felt this way since I started playing AH. Like Morph stated bombings simple. My 1st few months I was in the =Ghost= bomber wing. It took me all of 2 weeks to get near 100% accuracy. I really wish HTC would consider implementing the F6 rule. I've seen film of lanc diving from 10k, hitting 350mph+ to dive bomb. It doesn't "cheat" anybody or handycap anyone. It just makes them use an already easy system, correctly.
PS: To the guys of Ghost squad, we always did it the right way and it was a blast:D
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Cant hit squat with Buffs. Level or dive bombing, even though to be honest, i never tried dive bombing in heavies. Maybe i should. Just once. To know what im talking about.
But i have fun flying bombers. Had an exceptionally good night taking Lancs up to 25K. Dropped all my ordenance on 4 or 5 different fields. Proudly report a barrack, a soft gun and an ammo bunker destroyed. Proceeded to land my main bomber (drones somehow didnt make the dive back down) on home airfield. 2.5 hours of the very best entertainment on Squad channel.......
If i see dive bombing heavies in MA, i try to ping tham all as fast as possible. Thx for the ammo conserving kills. :D
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Schatzi, the thing is I could explain it to you and it would take you 5 mins to get a feel for it. MOST are just to lazy to take the time to learn. IMO, it's the simplest thing in the game to do. Well, besides dive bombing them lol.
I will add I'm not saying bombing overall is easy. It can be challanging getting into a heavily defended target. But the bomb scope aspect is simple.
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I am deadly accurate using the bomb site....can't hit squat dive bombing in a jabo so I assume it would be no different in a buff. Just don't know...never even bothered to try it.
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Originally posted by Curval
I am deadly accurate using the bomb site....can't hit squat dive bombing in a jabo so I assume it would be no different in a buff. Just don't know...never even bothered to try it.
its true, it far easier in the sight. come to think of it i've actually never seen any dive bombing lancs or any heavies at all. low level sure, but never dive bomb:huh . anyway tho, i do agree with morph, it would be cool to make every plane that has it, use the bombsite. exceptions for this would be the a20 and ju88, both used as attack planes (ju88's were designed to withstand dive bombing)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Cant hit squat with Buffs. ...snip
Schatzi, the "trick" is so simple its almost embarassing -- and i cant miss what will likely be my ONLY opportunity to teach you something!
The easiest mistake to make is to not watch flight speed after calibration. For simplicity's sake, its nice to be at steady speed, stablilized for a given throttle setting. Even if that's not possible, if you watch E6B after calibration you can jockey the throttle to keep the buff speed right at the calibration speed. Remember that moving the sight means rudder input, whcih can slow you a shade -- and will deviate to the bombsight view laterally DURING the turn (as the fuselage rotates). If you calibrate early enough, you wont have to worry much about that, or the associated problem of drones sliding out of triangle formation with extreme maneuvers right before drop.
If you cant get the E6B speed perfectly matched to calibration speed at drop , do a rough estimate adjustment by dropping a little early or late, as appropriate.
Like Morph said, its the easiest thing in the game.
PS. I vote for F6 only drops from level bombers. The game is compulsively careful and accurate with fighter performance, aircraft loadouts, and ordinance physics. Theres just no reason it should be so very far from reality in the way level bombers can be used. I mean, can ANYONE find documentation of level bombers dropping form pilot positions and ignoring bombadier/'bombsight positions?
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Fond memories of manual calibration, wind, no drones etc .... there used to be an art to it.
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My biggest problem with suicide buffs is how they'll fly feet above the water evading most or all of the puffy ack and wait until they're within range then pulling up and releasing all bombs while getting torn to shreds and being sent back to the tower while their bombs are left flying through the air still live and active, and most times will do damage to or sink a CV. That is not game play.
What these players dont understand is how easy it is to sink a CV from 10-15k. Or how easy it is to bomb strat, be it hangers, ord, barracks or fuel from 15k and more. Its also far more effective mind you. There are far less fighters willing to climb to 15+k now a days to intercept bombers. There deffencive capabilities are that good. Heck, you dont even have to climb to 10k if you're concerned about t/t/t.
And darkish is right. It used to take a certain level of skill to bomb from high alt, more so when bombing above the wind layer. Now, with the way the new sight is designed there is absolutely no reason for buffs to be suiciding strat, or CV's, and dive bombing on fields. Just calibrate for speed, keep an eye on your E6B making sure both your air speed and calibration speed coincide with one another and you're guaranteed near 100% accuracy.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
My biggest problem with suicide buffs is how they'll fly feet above the water evading most or all of the puffy ack and wait until they're within range then pulling up and releasing all bombs while getting torn to shreds and being sent back to the tower while their bombs are left flying through the air still live and active, and most times will do damage to or sink a CV. That is not game play.
Uhm, I hate to be the one to point this out, but that is GAME PLAY. Realistic ? - no, definitely not. Gamey? Definitely yes. But then, after all, and it's been stated here nan kai mo, this is a game. . . .
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Originally posted by SKJohn
Uhm, I hate to be the one to point this out, but that is GAME PLAY. Realistic ? - no, definitely not. Gamey? Definitely yes. But then, after all, and it's been stated here nan kai mo, this is a game. . . .
Yeah but this GAME PLAY hurts the game. And as Simaril stated, they put so much focus on realistic handling, ordinace, etc that it would only make since to make the bombing aspect realistic also. After all, many of the "war winners" are also the same ones who hound for more realism and fly the bombers. It's just making it more realistic and fair.
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Morph,
we have posted about diving level-bombers many times. HTC cannot be unaware of this issue. This is indeed one of the most game-ish features of AH, togheter with the way level bombers can sink CVs form 5K while fighters are shot down by CV miles and miles away.
Those issues are probably not priorities for HTC. There is no other explanation.
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Originally posted by Simaril
The easiest mistake to make is to not watch flight speed after calibration. For simplicity's sake, its nice to be at steady speed, stablilized for a given throttle setting. Even if that's not possible, if you watch E6B after calibration you can jockey the throttle to keep the buff speed right at the calibration speed. Remember that moving the sight means rudder input, whcih can slow you a shade -- and will deviate to the bombsight view laterally DURING the turn (as the fuselage rotates). If you calibrate early enough, you wont have to worry much about that, or the associated problem of drones sliding out of triangle formation with extreme maneuvers right before drop.
If you cant get the E6B speed perfectly matched to calibration speed at drop , do a rough estimate adjustment by dropping a little early or late, as appropriate.
Like Morph said, its the easiest thing in the game.
What he said.
Generally I will take off and once airborne reduce to Manifold Pressure 40. Then, I level off at about 15k...sometimes more, sometimes less. Try to level off at least a half sector from target...this will enable your air speed to equal drop speed without "needing" to check the E6B.
Also...when holding down the "Y" key on your drop point...hold it for at least 10 seconds.
....and don't open your doors until you are a split second from your first bomb being released. The opening of the doors can slow you down enough to make pin-point accuracy impossible if done too soon.
I learned to bomb from MRPLUTO...he's darn good at it.
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Originally posted by gatt
Morph,
we have posted about diving level-bombers many times. HTC cannot be unaware of this issue. This is indeed one of the most game-ish features of AH, togheter with the way level bombers can sink CVs form 5K while fighters are shot down by CV miles and miles away.
Those issues are probably not priorities for HTC. There is no other explanation.
Im fully aware of how many times its been posted. Yet nothing's been done. Why?
As for you, Skjohn, what that is is not game play. Its foolish, unrealistic garbage. I am all for having fun, and a strict, 100% realistic game is not always fun. When thing's become too realistic they aren't fun anymore. After all this is a game, and games are meant to be played for the enjoyment. There is a point when gamey features such as diving bombing CV's, FH's ect in external view with B17's or what have you just doesnt cut it. That's not fun and its not fair to the rest of the players who are doing it the right way. Im so sick of hearing "well why dont you deffend your CV's and FH's." Bull. You all know as well as I do how difficult and virtually impossible it becomes when you have lines of buffs' stacked one on top of another diving in to kill a CV just to say they killed a CV. Or pony's dropping from 18k compressed and pointed at a Fighter hanger only to drop bombs seconds before they auger. You simply cannot deffend against crap like this.
The thing of it is, new players have no clue. They have no clue how idiot proof the bomb sights are. They have no idea what a jabo mission is. What its not is climbing to 18-20k going full throtle straight down releasing bombs before you die and reup to do it all over again.
Its simple, you die seconds after you release bombs. Those bombs do not do any damage.
And if you're going to level bomb, the only way you can drop bombs is to do so via the bomb sight.
Before you come back with a response, ask yourself, is this going to help game play or hurt it?
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Originally posted by SKJohn
Uhm, I hate to be the one to point this out, but that is GAME PLAY. Realistic ? - no, definitely not. Gamey? Definitely yes. But then, after all, and it's been stated here nan kai mo, this is a game. . . .
You're missing the question -- glowing powerups for healing are part of gameplay in some environments, but AH isnt that kind of game. Its a simulation, not an arcade smashfest or real time "strategy" game.
Realism -- whether its the maximum speed of a coconut laden Swalbe (european, not african)*, or the way bombs' descent is affected by the plane's horizontal speed vector -- is the CORE of AH modelling. Just look at the arcane discussions of muzzle velocity and aircraft subvariant production runs in the Aircraft and Vehicle forums. AH2 rightly uses gamey stuff for its STRATEGY components, like field captures, but generally the game and its players prefer realism in flight issues.
Dive bombing lancs are not realistic, and are quintisentially gamey. Level buffs were not structurally designed for diving, and in AH structural failure from G forces seem undermodelled. "LancStukas" detract from game play. They shouldnt be accepted, because the game would be just as playable and more fun without them.
*Note: this is both a Monty Python Holy Grail reference, AND a cool pun. It should be worth triple geek points. I'll be watching my email.
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I agree with you 100% Morph, but I will play devil's advocate for a bit!
The first argument would be that if you don't want low flying buffs sinking cv's in the manner you stated, then be sure to send aircraft out ahead of carrier fleet and destroy ord at enemy bases close enough to attack the fleet in this manner. On the other hand, I think you will still have a guy that flies NOE across 3 sectors to do exactly what you are talking about, just to sink a CV!
The second argument would be that as far as historical accuracy goes, there were instances where "suicide" low level bombing raids were attempted by both sides during the war. (Ball bering plants in Romania-Allies, ship runners-axis JU-88's, and of course the Japanese) Some of these raids proved to be as stupid as they are in AH2 and some were effective!
I don't see as big a problem with the low-level suicide buff dweebs, but the diving buff dweebs are pathetic. No RL vet buff pilot would have agreed to dive bombing as it would have surely meant the loss of his aircraft and the unavilability for safe departure from the craft for his crew due to high G-forces! It is just simply Stupid tactics. Hell, there is even a player who got his cpid from this AH bug.... Lancdive! lol
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Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing. I don't understand how people who fly buffs all the time can't figgure it out. More EZ mode than flying a lala.
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Go ahead and play whatever roll you want. With the one you're playing under now, you're arguing against better game play.
I think you will still have a guy that flies NOE across 3 sectors to do exactly what you are talking about, just to sink a CV!
Anyone going from 3 sectors back, is most likely going to grab to atleast 10k. If they do so and sink a CV im flying from, more power to them. They did it the right way.
And yes, killing ord does work. But not on maps like we have up now such as FesterMA. Where you have bases so close together that to go from one base back would mean an extra two minutes added on to time to target.
That is a very shallow argument my friend. Because now you're saying that because I didnt kill ord at the base I'm at, and all the surrounding bases, they should be allowed to slam a formation of B17's into the side of my carrier, or into the ground at my base just after they drop their bombs on an FH. I call that nothing more than BS.
axis JU-88's,
Which were used extensively as a dive bomber. As part of its design.
B17's where not designed as a dive bomber. Nor were lancs, or B24's ect ect ect. They need to be restricted to dropping bombs only in the manner they were designed. Which is flying level, and from the bomb sight.
This is a game, what you have now is a large amount of players exploiting features of the game to simply ruin it for others. They know when they die, they get to reup. They know that once they release their bombs doing almost 600mph straight down that those bombs are going to explode, and that they're going to die and do it all over again. So, they keep doing it.
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Its about the only thing in this game I don't like,,,, the low level LANCWARRIOR inb to a base at 2k to "level it dude"
Leave the JU88 alone though, its the best dive bomber in the game.
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First, I'm entirely in agreement with morph on this. Back in the day, when I was but a lowly toolshedder ( kidding), we'd up our single bombers, form up, determine targets, salvoes, follow up drops, secondary targets, etc, then go in, simultaneously at alt, and pickle off our bombs, usually with good accuracy despite wind, no EZ mode bombsight, and only single bomber payloads. We were still able to flatten entire sectors, make artificial reefs, hunt tanks from 15k, etc. If anything, the more complex system made wingman tactics and communication between multiple bombers en route not just a cool stragety, but a necessity if a base were to be captured, or an offensive ground to a halt.
Nowadays, a vast majority of bombers are under 5K, upped from the absolute closest field, with the max payload, and 25% gas. I do see some bombers at alt, but I can't tell you who they are, as I tend to leave them alone. (if they're going to actually work at bombing, I'm not going to spoil their fun, unless there's a lot of them) However, the norm is a low flight of 26s/17s/lancs roaring in WFO, drop the whole load, BAMBAMBAM dead from either ack, osties, dirtnapping, or in the bombblast. This gameplay feature remains a festering sore in the MA.
Surely HT could fix this without having to completely redo the level bombing system. Perhaps when that tactic finds its way into ToD (and I'm sure it will), he'll find the time to fix it.
I'd like to see the planes that historically divebomb (no, not skip bombing, actual divebombing) allowed to retain this ability, but not in formations- single planes only. I'd dump formations altogether, but that's another story.
BTW Sim, there's no way a 5 ounce bird could carry a 1 pound coconut.
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Originally posted by Stang
Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.
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That's why they used carpet bombing in WW2.
But i read about B24s,Ju88s, A234s,B26,B25 were ussed for low alt strikes, I think Lancs were also used for low alt, dam buster, skibombing.
Since B24s and new accurate bombing were introduced in game , i start loving 109G10, cuz were more bombers than fighters around, now they cool down a bit,
But like many other dweebs, i do low alt and dive bombing in formations, and i don't feel guilty as long as, is a feature of the game and has historic backgrounds.
:)
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Go ahead and play whatever roll you want. With the one you're playing under now, you're arguing against better game play.
Anyone going from 3 sectors back, is most likely going to grab to atleast 10k. If they do so and sink a CV im flying from, more power to them. They did it the right way.
And yes, killing ord does work. But not on maps like we have up now such as FesterMA. Where you have bases so close together that to go from one base back would mean an extra two minutes added on to time to target.
That is a very shallow argument my friend. Because now you're saying that because I didnt kill ord at the base I'm at, and all the surrounding bases, they should be allowed to slam a formation of B17's into the side of my carrier, or into the ground at my base just after they drop their bombs on an FH. I call that nothing more than BS.
Which were used extensively as a dive bomber. As part of its design.
B17's where not designed as a dive bomber. Nor were lancs, or B24's ect ect ect. They need to be restricted to dropping bombs only in the manner they were designed. Which is flying level, and from the bomb sight.
This is a game, what you have now is a large amount of players exploiting features of the game to simply ruin it for others. They know when they die, they get to reup. They know that once they release their bombs doing almost 600mph straight down that those bombs are going to explode, and that they're going to die and do it all over again. So, they keep doing it.
As I said to start out with, I agree with you 100%! :aok
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Originally posted by Stang
Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.
No, no it is not. I was here when it WAS laser guided bombing. Where I could take a Ju-88 with internal bombs only, flying a snake-pattern over an airfield at 20k picking off every strat individually with single bombs.
It is not as easy at it used to be, trust me on that.
I think the switch to full manual in the MA was a mistake, though. It encouraged people to come up with a way to be effective in bombers without dealing with it. Thus, the NOE buff dweebs and the dive bombing dweebs. Unfortunately they have learned that, even with the bombsight toned down a bit, NOE raiding and dive bombing is still faster and more effective than getting up to alt.
But, the advantage is, those that do go up at alt will rarely find enemy fighters waiting.
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Dive bombing has lost it's thrill. That Lancdive character (hmmm...) can move lancs up and down like they were a lala and then dive them though. I guess it's how you play. I only dive bomb CV's and that's only with medium bomber B26's and if they have started turning a lot.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
to sink a CV ..... , .
Imop, is a lot of fun fight, maybe one of the best around CVs,but are too soft, they go down like in AH1, with 8000lbs, but bombing is many times more accurate.
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Ya Know, I do not realy disagree with "some" of what this thread has said. But I find it interesting that the thread starter and most avid supporters of this issue, is a group who do not fly bombers....ever!!!! They complain about bomber issues, say it is the easiest thing in the game to do but....they never do it ;)
They make fun of and taunt people who know how to bomb and enjoy capturing bases but they never partake in dropping hangers or buff flying??
They only claim to be interested in "one" aspect of the game, but claim to be educated on "all" aspects. Seems silly realy.
MMM very interesting. Last I heard you guys wanted nothing to do with those toolshedders, so if that IS the case, stop worrying about how they use their tools of destruction. :aok
That being said.......I agree that bombers should not be able do divebomb, however low level drops without using the sights should remain possible.
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Originally posted by ghi
Originally posted by Stang
Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.
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But like many other dweebs, i do low alt and dive bombing in formations, and i don't feel guilty as long as, is a feature of the game and has historic backgrounds.
:)
Other then the low alt runs. exactly what historic backgrounds do the B17's, Lancasters, B25's have in dive bombing?
I dont think once or twice in the thousands and thousands and thousands missions flown during entire war qualifies as "Historic backgrounds"
B26's I can buy into, A20s I can buy into.
but not the bigboys by a longshot.
BTW typically what I see int he Diving formations is a group of 3 diving in then the driver pulls out so hard he ends up loosing 2 of the 3 of his formation on pullout.
Tell me. What "Historic background" is ther for formations of bombers diving in on a target and willingly and voluntarily sacrificing 2/3s of their formations on dive bombing runs?
The only explination Ive seen from the powers that be I personally view as being unacceptable and that being "because they could"
Well for that matter any plane crashing into a target even without bombs should be able to cause damage to that target,Building Ship, etc etc.
Why dont we have tht then. They most certainly "could" and was far far far far less rare of an occurance then dive bombing heavies.
Yet here you can crash directly into a feild ack and it receives not so much as a scratch.
Now Im not argueing that such RL and far more frequent Kamakazi tactics be allowed. But rather that the far far less frequent tactics of dive bombing heavies be dissallowed.
Just because something "could be done" Does not mean it should.
Particularly if it was a very rare occurance.
Now I have a question that some of the guros may be able to answer.
On the heavies. Did they really have the option of only releasing as few as 1 bomb at a time? Or did they only let go of salvos of several or all at once?
But rather that
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Other then the low alt runs. exactly what historic backgrounds do the B17's, Lancasters, B25's have in dive bombing?
I dont think once or twice in the thousands and thousands and thousands missions flown during entire war qualifies as "Historic backgrounds"
B26's I can buy into, A20s I can buy into.
but not the bigboys by a longshot.
BTW typically what I see int he Diving formations is a group of 3 diving in then the driver pulls out so hard he ends up loosing 2 of the 3 of his formation on pullout.
Tell me. What "Historic background" is ther for formations of bombers diving in on a target and willingly and voluntarily sacrificing 2/3s of their formations on dive bombing runs?
The only explination Ive seen from the powers that be I personally view as being unacceptable and that being "because they could"
Well for that matter any plane crashing into a target even without bombs should be able to cause damage to that target,Building Ship, etc etc.
Why dont we have tht then. They most certainly "could" and was far far far far less rare of an occurance then dive bombing heavies.
Yet here you can crash directly into a feild ack and it receives not so much as a scratch.
Now Im not argueing that such RL and far more frequent Kamakazi tactics be allowed. But rather that the far far less frequent tactics of dive bombing heavies be dissallowed.
Just because something "could be done" Does not mean it should.
Particularly if it was a very rare occurance.
Now I have a question that some of the guros may be able to answer.
On the heavies. Did they really have the option of only releasing as few as 1 bomb at a time? Or did they only let go of salvos of several or all at once?
But rather that
couldn't have said it better myself. I really couldn't have because i would have ran out of patience. I was just going to put "what an idiot" but your was better... :aok
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Originally posted by Darkish
Fond memories of manual calibration, wind, no drones etc .... there used to be an art to it.
Used to bomb back then sometimes. It was a challenge to get some cover and fly high in a single bomber, actually hit your target and rtb with a couple kills, shot up and out of tailgun ammo. :)
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
Ya Know, I do not realy disagree with "some" of what this thread has said. But I find it interesting that the thread starter and most avid supporters of this issue, is a group who do not fly bombers....ever!!!! They complain about bomber issues, say it is the easiest thing in the game to do but....they never do it ;)
They make fun of and taunt people who know how to bomb and enjoy capturing bases but they never partake in dropping hangers or buff flying??
They only claim to be interested in "one" aspect of the game, but claim to be educated on "all" aspects. Seems silly realy.
MMM very interesting. Last I heard you guys wanted nothing to do with those toolshedders, so if that IS the case, stop worrying about how they use their tools of destruction. :aok
That being said.......I agree that bombers should not be able do divebomb, however low level drops without using the sights should remain possible.
How do you know we never do it? How do you know we've never done this in the past? I use to bomb all the time. I use to do base capture. But it quickly lost it's magic and became easy and unchallenging so I moved onto fighters. Many in my squad have been playing for many years. You don't think they know how to bomb? When you've been playing for as long as most of them, you are experienced in all aspects of the game. Just because we don't do it doesn't mean we can't. It's a preference, heck I know a few use to be MAWs :eek:. And I have nothing but respect for the guys that do it right such as Plumbit, 999, tater(I could name more), I just can't stand the guys to lazy to even learn to do it properly.
And it concerns us when the "toolshedding"(you said it, not me) P51s come screaming in and release their bombs right before they bite it taking out the FH's. It also concerns us when the lancstuka comes in for it's suicide dive on the CV. I'm not really trying to start a purse fight with you Rap, but you assume a lot by thinking my squad knows nothing about bombing and base capture.
Oh and Raptor, thx for not disappointing me. I knew when I typed this earlier someone would make it true....
Originally posted by SuperDud
I know the this will inevatably be a "BK whine" but I've felt this way since I started playing AH....
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See above. ^
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
Ya Know, I do not realy disagree with "some" of what this thread has said. But I find it interesting that the thread starter and most avid supporters of this issue, is a group who do not fly bombers....ever!!!! They complain about bomber issues, say it is the easiest thing in the game to do but....they never do it ;)
They make fun of and taunt people who know how to bomb and enjoy capturing bases but they never partake in dropping hangers or buff flying??
They only claim to be interested in "one" aspect of the game, but claim to be educated on "all" aspects. Seems silly realy.
MMM very interesting. Last I heard you guys wanted nothing to do with those toolshedders, so if that IS the case, stop worrying about how they use their tools of destruction. :aok
That being said.......I agree that bombers should not be able do divebomb, however low level drops without using the sights should remain possible.
Ah, I was waiting for this.
We actually do fly buffs sometimes. And it will kill you to hear this, but Morph flies them more than anyone else in our squad.
It isn't that we hate them... well, other than lazs hehe. It's just that we live for the fight mostly, as others live for strat, goon driving, hording or whatever floats your boat. That usually keeps us out of bombers. But like Morph said before, there are times some of us do, and we have fun with it.
Just because you have a problem with us doesn't mean that Morph and others are wrong. He's right.
Now go back to your buff and have fun.
:D
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
Ya Know, I do not realy disagree with "some" of what this thread has said. But I find it interesting that the thread starter and most avid supporters of this issue, is a group who do not fly bombers....ever!!!! They complain about bomber issues, say it is the easiest thing in the game to do but....they never do it ;)
They make fun of and taunt people who know how to bomb and enjoy capturing bases but they never partake in dropping hangers or buff flying??
They only claim to be interested in "one" aspect of the game, but claim to be educated on "all" aspects. Seems silly realy.
MMM very interesting. Last I heard you guys wanted nothing to do with those toolshedders, so if that IS the case, stop worrying about how they use their tools of destruction. :aok
Want to make a bet? Before I ever got as involved with fighters as I am now,years ago all I did was fly bombers. I started off probably the same way many players do. They find a plane that they know about and loved to read about and get in it and start flying it. For me it was the B17. I had family members who flew in B17's durring WW2 so they have always, always been one of my most favorite a/c of the war, or a/c period. Time only permits me to get in a few flights on line now so I stick to short, fun, furballs. Which are getting harder and harder to find.
I have nothing, nothing against taking bases. I am completely against flying in hordes numbering over 50 just to take one single base. There is nothing tactical about that. There is no skill involved there. But then again, this thread isn't about taking bases is it now? So go hijack a thread that pertains to such things.
Back on the topic of bombers and Jabo.
What I see now, is many players just bombing the living hell out of anything they see just for the sake of bombing it. If they can't dive bomb it to death with a fully loaded P51 they'll dive bomb it with a fully loaded set of B17's. What these players dont understand is that it can be somewhat fun to actually HIT what you're aiming at when you drop from higher alt's. Sure the climb to the targets can be boring, but that's the way its saposed to be.
I constantly hear people getting upset because they are being yelled at on country channel for diving bombing, and how lame they are to do it. They'll come back with..." Well do you know how many fighters I flew through to get to that base??!?" Big fluff'n deal. Does it mater how many fighters they had to fend off otw to the target if they imediately die after they let their bombs go?
Dam right Im going to make fun of these people. They're helping wreck the game and further transform it to Quake High rather than Aces High.
Or should I compliment them on how wonderfly they augered into the gound with no wings on their B17's after they ripped off in the dive to kill the fighter hangers?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Other then the low alt runs. exactly what historic backgrounds do the B17's, Lancasters, B25's have in dive bombing?
Yes, sorry, I suposed to say "low alt", bombing, not dive bombing, But what diference would it make in game,?! fly over tgt on outside view and Bang! i never mentioned B17s,
mission "Tidal Wave" in B24s, Doolittle in B25s .
About lancs i'm not sure if was done , i remember reading about a Lancs operation, low alt to destroy the dams in Germany.
I read about Ju88s, doing same low alt bombing, i remember the "88s, could get 800km/h in dive. A234s were used dive bombing for bridges on west front,
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u rip the bks raptor than totally agree with morph in last sentence:confused:
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Originally posted by ghi
Yes, sorry, I suposed to say "low alt", bombing, not dive bombing, But what diference would it make in game,?! fly over tgt on outside view and Bang! i never mentioned B17s,
mission "Tidal Wave" in B24s, Doolittle in B25s .
About lancs i'm not sure if was done , i remember reading about a Lancs operation, low alt to destroy the dams in Germany.
I read about Ju88s, doing same low alt bombing, i remember the "88s, could get 800km/h in dive. A234s were used dive bombing for bridges on west front,
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with low alt bombing runs using heavy bombers.
the only problem I have is with dive bombing heavies
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The Constitution of Aces High :
Chapter 1. "Furballer vs. Toolshedders "
Chapter 2. " Level bomber and dive bomber "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 3. Vulch, Ho, bomb FHs CVs, dive bomb in formation,spawn camp. Do whatever offer you the highest orguzmatic sensation for your 15$
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Originally posted by ghi
The Constitution of Aces High :
Chapter 1. "Furballer vs. Toolshedders "
Chapter 2. " Level bomber and dive bomber "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 3. Vulch, Ho, bomb FHs CVs, dive bomb in formation,spawn camp. Do whatever offer you the highest orguzmatic sensation for your 15$
And sadly, it's this attitude that hurts the game. I don't think it's so unreasonable or earth shaking to ask for the bombers to be used properly.
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Originally posted by ghi
The Constitution of Aces High :
Chapter 1. "Furballer vs. Toolshedders "
Chapter 2. " Level bomber and dive bomber "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 3. Vulch, Ho, bomb FHs CVs, dive bomb in formation,spawn camp. Do whatever offer you the highest orguzmatic sensation for your 15$
Not at all ghi. I dont understand why you're trying to pull this out of topic the way you are. Well I do, it's because this is how you make your living for the most part when in a Buff. I've seen it, and filmed it, and fought against you doing it. And its usually when I'm killing one NOE buff formation, that another formation will slip by and pork/auger.
Its got nothing to do with being against anyone rather it has everything to do with being against an exploitable... a heavily exploited feature of the game. Its a loop hole really. And a cop out way of getting the "job" done.
If you want to make it a furballer vs Toolshedders than you're going to miss the bigger picture. Which doesnt surprise me in the least. Because most who are using bombers the way you do, the last thing they'll want is for this gamey little exploitable loop hole to be removed. And they'll want to dodge the subject and change it at all costs.
The bigger picture, the one you fail to see is that this most likely could improve game play, a small part, but still improve it none the less. And if it's changed, and I'm wrong, and it doesnt do squat to help game play, then I'll admit I was wrong.
So far, not one of you who are against removing the ability bomb while in external view have given me one good reason why it should stay as such, and why it is a good feature to have.
Im all for if it aint broke dont fix it. Well, this is pretty darn broke, and IMO needs fixing.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
u rip the bks raptor than totally agree with morph in last sentence:confused:
As you guys should know I am not known for bbs ripping, trolling, arguing, hijacking, etc. I did not intend to rip the BK's, I have no beef with them and may enjoy a few sorties with them someday when we are both on the same side of the game. I know I have enjoyed many from the other side against them.
I absolutely agree that the guys dive bombing in big bombers are dweebs who can't do it the right (harder) way :aok It ticks me off to see it done on cv's.
My first point was only of my surprise that a group who makes it crystal clear they do not destroy targets on the ground, would care so much about...... well........people destroying targets on the ground.... and how they do it. :D
Hope I cleared that up, now, please carry on, don't let me slow yas down.
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P.S. :)
I do not think that making it impossible to drop in f3 mode is what should happen. There are times, when I have lost the time to calibrate, maybe my engine is out and im gliding down, or for other reasons I may want to make a drop using the old "eyeball" technique.
I think if something is to be done, make it so that you cannot drop eggs from a large bomber unless you are LEVEL. Or at least no more than 10% off level. This will stop the biggest problem which is the divebombing big bomber dweebs.
Wow!!! three posts in the same thread!!!!! Make me stop please!!!! :rolleyes:
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you know i cannot understand why this is always a issue its simple if we can spawn gvs then spawn buffs to a alt lets say 10k i personaly do not have the time or do not want to take the time to fly for xamount of time to get to alt you would like me to bomb from.I fly low buffs and as far as im concerned that is no different then when you guys go to the middle of a sector and furball all night you think the Germans and BRITS said ok today we meet over london and lets get it on geezez. if you dont like it then pork all the ords for 100 miles and be done with it. or like Morph said maybe some of my perks could be spent on some fuses so my eggs get delayed lol whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The discussion isn't about low alt buffs. It's about dive bombing heavies and the augering jabos. Low alt buffs are fine by me, what gets lame is the dive bombing sort that blow themselfs up along with the hangers.
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Originally posted by tatertot
you know i cannot understand why this is always a issue its simple if we can spawn gvs then spawn buffs to a alt lets say 10k i personaly do not have the time or do not want to take the time to fly for xamount of time to get to alt you would like me to bomb from.I fly low buffs and as far as im concerned that is no different then when you guys go to the middle of a sector and furball all night you think the Germans and BRITS said ok today we meet over london and lets get it on geezez. if you dont like it then pork all the ords for 100 miles and be done with it. or like Morph said maybe some of my perks could be spent on some fuses so my eggs get delayed lol whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Few The Proud The TATER:aok
where ya been man
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I vote for the 'bombsight only' drop for the heavys. The GV fights on FesterMA have been ruined due to the treetop lancnotalents.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Not at all ghi. I dont understand why you're trying to pull this out of topic the way you are. Well I do, it's because this is how you make your living for the most part when in a Buff. I've seen it, and filmed it, and fought against you doing .
I make my living working, not in buffs, There i need to have the "job done" , following rules and restrictions , no need some in game, as long as this is a feature of the game
I'm here to relax and have fun,:)
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Originally posted by tatertot
you know i cannot understand why this is always a issue its simple if we can spawn gvs then spawn buffs to a alt lets say 10k i personaly do not have the time or do not want to take the time to fly for xamount of time to get to alt you would like me to bomb from.I fly low buffs and as far as im concerned that is no different then when you guys go to the middle of a sector and furball all night you think the Germans and BRITS said ok today we meet over london and lets get it on geezez. if you dont like it then pork all the ords for 100 miles and be done with it. or like Morph said maybe some of my perks could be spent on some fuses so my eggs get delayed lol whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First off I never said anything about "fuzes" for eggs. So get your facts straight before you start quoting me.
you think the Germans and BRITS said ok today we meet over london and lets get it on geezez
Actually that's not too far off.
Im dam sure the allieds didnt take their fleet of bombers and run them into the sides of carriers. They sure as hell didnt do it with B17's while standing outside the plane out on top of the fulesalage, while piloting the plane, and operating the bomb doors, and bomb drop.
Those who fly in fighters cannot shoot while in external view, hell we can't even get in external view. We dont say, "oh **** wait I lost you on the merge, let me check my external view mode". As someone said "I missed the callibration let me get in F3 mode and suicide/dive bomb it now instead".
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first off i never quoted you and second why do you care so much about buffs anyway >??? i wouldnt have a issue spawing 2sec out at lets say 10 k or eggs dont arm under 10k but can i still noe to gun:D
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Originally posted by tatertot
first off i never quoted you and second why do you care so much about buffs anyway >???
If you really need an answer to that question then you have no clue what this thread is even about.
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nope no need to answer i know whats its about
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
On the heavies. Did they really have the option of only releasing as few as 1 bomb at a time? Or did they only let go of salvos of several or all at once?
DREDIOCK,
I had the personal honor of knowing 2 WWII bomber pilots.
Carl. M Clark, Major, USAAC, (Ret.) who flew out of both Ridgewell, England with the 381st BG, and as a pathfinder pilot out of Bassingbourn, England with the 91st BG in B-17s, mostly, the "Oakie Flak Sack".
Walter F. Hughes, Captain, USAAC, (Ret.) who flew B-24's out of England with the 93rd BG 330th BS.
Both of these gentlemen upon being asked this very question said that although there was a bit of a time delay to the racks to keep everything from falling out of the bomb bay at once, they always dropped everything each time, and never NEVER circled the target for a second run.
Go to the following, scroll down to G-L under John Howland, there are two stories about Mr. Clark.
http://www.381st.org/stories.html
Snoopy Bell
HB555
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Morpheus,
it took HTC long time to fix parked ack-stars and parked kamikazes. There is probably something we dont know about priorities in fixing game-ish features :huh
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Originally posted by gatt
Morpheus,
it took HTC long time to fix parked ack-stars and parked kamikazes. There is probably something we dont know about priorities in fixing game-ish features :huh
I didnt know it was fixed.
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Well, I'll pitch in;
FWIW...I agree that dive-bombing Lancastukas are completely bogus. Level bombing, at any altitude, in a heavy, seems perfectly reasonable to me. Low-level was a common tactic, with the concomitant increase in risk associated. If you want to brave the fighters and flak in an NOE mission, why not? Tough run to survive.
I think that what maybe what we want is to look at dive-bombing heavies, augering jabo runs, etc...as we look at suicide missions, i.e...no workee. If you plow into a carrier with your AC (no bombs), no damage, right? So the above 'tactics' seem to amount to the same thing, at least to me.
I like the idea of preventing bomb release based on angle...leaves altitude and no-bombsight drops alone, while inherently eliminating "The Lancastuka Effect".
I also think I agree with a short time exclusion after bomb release...that is, die too soon after release, and no boom. Maybe a second or two? But how would we address the high-alt fighter-bomber dropping from 10K at full compression who drops early enough to bypass a timer, but is already doomed to face-plant due to compression? I'm not sure about that scenario. A little tricky to prevent that tactic, while not affecting legitimate jabo.
Me...I like bombers plenty, but level. And I agree it's pretty damned easy to get the hang of hitting a chosen target via bombsight, with a bit 'o practice. I also really like GV'ing. What I hate is watching a Lanc fly like a 110, bombing the bejeezuz out of a field full of tanks because he doesn't like getting shot up on the ground, and doesn't understand the concepts of evasion and cover. Come on...seven tank kills in one pass of a Lanc at 500 feet? Please... Could the airframes really have survived the stresses that must occur when pulling these maneuvers? Maybe so, I'm no expert, but seems counter-intuitive to me.
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A possible solution is here
http://www.tilt.clara.net/attack/Ahattack.html
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That's a pretty good idea Tilt.
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why not just remove the F3 / F4 external view option... As Morph stated earlier, I don't recall any pilots standing outside and ontop of there fuselage. I think this would get rid of allot of problems and make these low alt kamikazees either use F6 or eyeball it from the pilot seat. I fly buffs about as much as fighters and I know if I had the option to use the F3 view in a fighter, it would be very very hard for someone to shoot me down... When flying goons I can make allot of ppl miss just because of that view, if I didn't have it, I would be dead meat for sure. I have always stated that the damage model on buffs, particularly Lancs, B24's and B17's needs to be lowered. Not just damage from guns / cannons, but structually as well. I wasn't in WWII nor have I flown a Lanc in real life, but I seriously doubt the aircraft would be able to go into a 350+mph dive from 8-10k and then pull up at the last second without seriously damaging the plane. With the exception of JU88's which were used as a very effective dive bomber, all heavies need there structure intregrity lowered... Sometimes when I have allot of time I'll take b24's or lancs up to 20k or so and flatten a field or 2 and rtb, while rtbing, I'll dive the whole time with speeds in excess of 350mph, there is no way the wings on a plane like that would hold together, just isn't possible. Structuraly speaking anyways... But back to my main point, get rid of the stupid F3/F4 views, this game is supposed to be a WWII air combat SIMULATOR, not an XBOX/Playstaion 2 arcade game... From a fighter aspect the game is good IMO, but from a bomber apsect, its all messed up, for instance, if im in a fighter and I shoot a guy down player X, player X is falling to the ground, hasn't ejected or anything, and his wingmate, player Z shoots me and I blow up, before player X hits the ground... I lose my kill... Now lets take this and apply it to buffs. I'm in B26's and dive on a cv from 8k, drop all my ord and die before my bombs hit, while im in the tower (dead) my bombs continue to fall and I get the message ship sunk, gun destroyed, etc, etc... Same thing for torpedos, up some JU88's or a PT boat and launch your torps and die, 3-5 min later u get the ship destroyed, gun hit, etc message. Most of the time when I kill a cv with torps, I've already launched my torps, died, and re-upped in a fighter to furball, then I get my message... I understand the whole kamikazee thing, but its starting to pizz me off too..... What we have going on is 1/2 the ppl playing this game want to play it as if it were real life, up a plane get, hopefully get some kills or bomb your target and actually make it back to LAND there plane or ditch or bail, they actually try and play as if it were real life... Then you have the other 1/2 that play it like an arcade game where kills and deaths mean nothing to them, There's allot of good players in both these groups, but the problem is these 2 groups are constantly in conflict with eachother.... We need to figure out what type of game we want and stick to it. Do we want an arcade or a simulation is the main question... Hopefully when TOD is ready it will help with the simulation crowd, but the more and more I play this, I feel it getting cheasier and more like an Xbox Halo 1st person shoot em up game. And the influx of all the 2 week wonders and 12 year olds that saw the commercial on tv are not helping at all, its getting to the point that good players are having to HO all the time because of all the newbs and dweebs. Last night I got upset at Pacerr for hoing me when I was trying to roll away from him at the merge and I apologize for that, I now realize that this is what the game has come to, u see someone and u shoot, doesn;t matter about angle or speed or anything, just another version of Doom but in airplanes, and if you really want a good fight you have to go to the DA, maybe we need 2 MA's, 1 where all the vets, people that have played for over a year can play and another for 1 year and under because its getting to the point I don't want to fly in MA anymore because of all the dweebs... Sorry for turning this into a long ranting post but my favorite game is going downhill in a major hurry and I don't like it.
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Typical lanc or halifax pilot had but a few hours actual experience in the type and but a few minutes experience in any form of actual violent manouvresin the type.
Even the so called cork screw evasive was mild compared to the suicidal jaunts practiced in the MA
It was not a matter of what the ac could do it was a matter of whether the pilot would ever do it.
Dambusters were atypical.
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Originally posted by USHilDvl
Please... Could the airframes really have survived the stresses that must occur when pulling these maneuvers? Maybe so, I'm no expert, but seems counter-intuitive to me.
Maybe so. You can hit one 4 or 5 times with 37mm rounds and have them fly off. And there is no way you can hit the whole flight that many times. Thats if I can hit them at all. :cry
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and that 37mm should punch an exit hole about 5' round lol
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I know what you mean, Lye-el. But I wonder if that isn't a game-specific damage-model issue, rather than evidence of the ability to go aerobatic in a multi-ton 4-engine bomber.
On the other hand, we all know that Libs, and Forts, often RTB'd with unbelievable damage...and lived to tell the tale and take pictures.
Also, remember that in RL, there were pretty substantial portions of these airframes where a shell could (and did) pass through without doing serious structural or functional damage. As much a function of luck as anything else, but certainly plausible within the context of the game.
The whole low-alt, suicide bomber-acrobat thing is just to 'gamey' for me.
BTW...try focussing on getting an engine burning, then break off. They'll blow eventually as the damage spreads. Wingtips are good for wrecking the pilots control...and top-down slashing attacks at the 'shoulders' of the wing/fuse junction = BOOM Buff hunting is a barrel-o-fun!
Luck!
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Originally posted by Tilt
A possible solution is here
http://www.tilt.clara.net/attack/Ahattack.html
That, IMO, is a damned good idea, Tilt.
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FBRaptor is dead on!.....regarding the BK's.... I share his perspective. ...if anyone has any doubt about the valitity of Fbraptor's premise regarding the BK's it is validated on the first page of the BK's own home page ..that states "WE DON'T FLY MISSIONS, WE DON'T DROP BOMBS, WE DON'T TAKE BASES, WE FIGHT, WERE GOOD AT IT."
Maybe some of the Bk's are not familiar with their own homepage...can anyone say "integrity"?
I wish the Bk's would add to their doctrine..WE ARE MODEST, AND RESPECTFULL.
999000
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Originally posted by 999000
FBRaptor is dead on!.....regarding the BK's.... I share his perspective. ...if anyone has any doubt about the valitity of Fbraptor's premise regarding the BK's it is validated on the first page of the BK's own home page ..that states "WE DON'T FLY MISSIONS, WE DON'T DROP BOMBS, WE DON'T TAKE BASES, WE FIGHT, WERE GOOD AT IT."
Maybe some of the Bk's are not familiar with their own homepage...can anyone say "integrity"?
I wish the Bk's would add to their doctrine..WE ARE MODEST, AND RESPECTFULL.
999000
Oh please...
:noid
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What's disrespectful about this thread 999? I've yet to see 1 BK bad mouth anyone. It's a simple request for heavy bombers to be used as they should be. Just b/c we aren't a buff squad, we can't have an opinion on it? And as I said to Raptor, many of us have done the bomber thing and moved on so it's not like we're clueless when we talk about it. And there are many folks besides BKs participating. I'd actually like to get your veiw 999 as one of the premeir buffers in the game? I know I respect you b/c you do it right and even though my squad and yourself might get in the occasional furballer vs buffer fight, I think most of the guys in the gang respect you for the fact that you bomb properly. This post has nothing to do with being a "bomber dweeb" or any other creative name. Myself and many others in this thread would sincerly like to see the heavies used in the proper fashion. I can't think of how this could really affect anyone other than the guys who don't want to take the short time it takes to learn the proper way of doing things. I feel that if 1 guy(the bomber) has the ability to ruin/change the fight for so many people, it should at least have to be done correctly and he should at least have to put minimal effort into doing so, not just a climb to 5k, get the base in sight, and take your 350MPH+ bombers screaming in.
Oh and 1 more think. This isn't about eliminating NOE runs either. Those are fine.
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I consider myself more a bomber pilot than a fighter pilot. I dont bomb to awful much anymore because I'm trying to get better at my weaker points. I will say this though. I have to agree with those that want to have bombs released from heavies in F6 mode only. Using F3 to drop because you didnt have time or for whatever reason is bogus.
Altitude of drop. It doesnt matter to me. I do on occasion fly low level runs, but mostly I try to fly at an altitude that plane was intended to be flown. Regardless of what alt flown, I drop with F6.
I get rather irked at the guys that divebomb heavies. Makes the level bomber guys look bad.
From what I can gather from most of this though, correct me if I'm wrong, is that if your gonna bomb something, do it right. The fighter guys are more or less saying to me that if your gonna come bomb in our playground, go right ahead and work for it and dont exploit a lame loophole in game balancing. Either way you may go down, but have a little respect for yourself and the others you play with.
Granted I'm not always following the line either but I do try to keep some things in perspective while I'm out cruisin around having fun.
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i think the current setup as bombers are, divingbomb in formation and porking fighter hangers easily is entirely detrimental to the gameplay. why is it so easy to kill fighter hangers in this game? Germany couldnt stop the RAF that easily during the war. It was not that easy to "knock out" planes on the ground... The game has become less of a fighter vs fighter game and more of a bomber and vehicle and fighter horde against one field. There is really no balance in the current setup and IMO the game was much more fun before the current stage.
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Originally posted by 999000
FBRaptor is dead on!.....regarding the BK's.... I share his perspective. ...if anyone has any doubt about the valitity of Fbraptor's premise regarding the BK's it is validated on the first page of the BK's own home page ..that states "WE DON'T FLY MISSIONS, WE DON'T DROP BOMBS, WE DON'T TAKE BASES, WE FIGHT, WERE GOOD AT IT."
Maybe some of the Bk's are not familiar with their own homepage...can anyone say "integrity"?
I wish the Bk's would add to their doctrine..WE ARE MODEST, AND RESPECTFULL.
999000
Wait you fly bombers? Oh yeah that's right, I guess flying death star formations but NEVER going above 15k qualifies you as a "true bomber" pilot in todays' Aces High.
You my little number guy, have no clue what the BK's are about. You have no clue what this game was like when the MA wasnt filled with 3xB17's that flew around on the deck clobbering CV's, slamming into fighter hanngers and blowing them selves up with their own bombs. I was going to be nice, but then again I knew you and you're cry baby attitude would come running in screaming holly hell when he found out people were talking about doing away with your suicide B17's.
You've done nothing but add to this Air Quake atmosphere and whats more, absolutely nothing to help show people how a bomber is saposed to be used. I flew buffs long before you ever set foot in this game. And we did it right.
BK's are not limited to what they can and cannot fly. You fail to see that the BK's are only on line to have fun, doing what THEY want to do as an individual. I knew you'd turn this into a BK thing... You have nothing else to go off of. Even at that you lack even the smalled bit of credibility due to the simple fact that you are King Suicide when it comes to flying bombers.
You want respect from me try climbing above 15k for once, and stop gloating about how you make it through to a base on the deck with your lazer guns through a swarm of enemy fighters then bombed the fighter hangers from 50 feet off the deck. Talk about lack of skill. Ray Charles could hit them at that alt.
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It all sounds reasonable to me. Tilt seems to have a pretty good plan there.
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Eagl a while back had a really good suggestion that would pretty much stop the diving bombing heavy bombers in their tracks. Make it so they can't drop their bombs beyond a certain angle and if they do then the bombs will kill the bomber.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Mime
The game has become less of a fighter vs fighter game and more of a bomber and vehicle and fighter horde against one field.
you hit the nail on the head! amen hallelujah praise JC WHO DEY! QUAH!
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Originally posted by Tails
No, no it is not. I was here when it WAS laser guided bombing. Where I could take a Ju-88 with internal bombs only, flying a snake-pattern over an airfield at 20k picking off every strat individually with single bombs.
It is not as easy at it used to be, trust me on that.
Don't have to trust you on that. You're absolutely correct.
If the bases are going to be this close together, you might as well expect low level bombers.
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***Edited for Being a Tard and not Reading the Thread Title***
:noid :huh
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For anyone having trouble with reading comprehension, the main issue here isn't about low level bombing. While that is also abused, as much as it's possible, the main issue is DIVEBOMBING. Note the thread's title- that should clarify things a bit.
While we're well aware that purpose-built divebombers did exist, their numbers do not include the B-24, B17, or the Lancaster.
I think Tilt's got a great idea, and there have been others, with the limiting factor being drop only from the bombardier's seat, dive angle, G forces, etc.
I'm not trying to remove bombers from the game, I simply wish to see their overwhelming effect on gameplay overall toned down some.
Regarding the BKs don't bomb crap; dig through the last few years of stats. Hub7, DowHub, Hubs, hubs7, UShub, name, hub, gunfoddr. All ID's I've used, starting back in AH1 (well before formations ever entered the picture). I've always flown bombers. Not so much these days, but I still fly them.
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Morphues sir,
You have had alot to say 6677 post to my 87....you must know alot more than I.....I appologize for my ignorance....
I understand you were here first....I played only AW from the 90's till its demise as 9900 a few years ago.....I enjoyed AW..the game ..but more importantly the community respectful and positive......I appologize for playing aces high for only about 8 years now and being so clueless as you say. Being a father of four, having coached on the division 3 athletics, being a City councilman, and having a masters degree in education and teaching for some 15 plus years I have really learn nothing ...I'm sorry sir.
I also appologize for telling people what is on your own squad web sight..that was really wrong of me.
You suggest I gloat.........funny but I try to be most respectful of everyone regardless if they a gv'er fighter pilot or bomber pilot....But I guess I got it wrong again.
Morphues for me its not about fighter pilots, tanks, pt boats, goons, or bombers scores etc I'm not going to remember the scores .....I'm going to remember the people sir!
I no doubt have this wrong also Morphues.... Aces High is NOT YOUR AND THE BK"S GAME. but you guys act like it is ..and that is what I find particulairly offensive.
999000
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999, are you gonna add anything constructive. Or just bash us and try to take the thread off topic?
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I know how long you've played for. And you are a nice guy. But that doesnt mean for a second I'm going to agree with you and the way you fly bombers. I think its a joke, a complete joke. You want to know why bombers arent taken more seriously in the game? Its because they are so arcadish, people never take them up to where they can do the things they're good at. If they are like this in ToD I can garrantee you it will be a joke too.
I've seen you come in 100 feet off the deck STRAIGHT at a CV. Ack blazing tearing you to shreads. You'll do this over and over and over and over and over until you or tatertot or any 1 of your dozen bomber cronnies in NOE buffs get's through enough times with eggs on the CV and its dead. Or the hangers are dead.
I dont agree with how you fly buffs, sorry, I'm never going to. I dont care how many kids you have, how long you've flown or havent flown. When you stop flying via the Air Quake Way maybe my sentiments towards how you fly em will change. Until then, you're doing all the wrong things in them. And that is of course in my opinion.
Guess what number guy, it is my game. Just like its yours, and anyone elses who pays their money to play. When I see some Quake High flyers like you wrecking the fun for everyone else Im going to say it.
Its an option in the game that's there, so you use it. That's fine, if I saw a bank vault open with millions of dollars inside and no one gaurding it, i'd be running off with those millions. Point is, they need to close down this way of bombing and bring back some of the things that have been lost to the Air Quakers. They need to limit the way a bomber is used, but limit only so far as to not allow people to make a dive at 350mph FULLY Loaded with bombs into a CV, make it so you can only bomb from the bomb sight. That's the way the dam things were used in real life, and its the way they should be used in the game. That's not too much to ask, and its not too little to play with and have fun with. Fighters do not have external view when firing guns, hell they dont have external view period. And I'm not asking to ditch external views, im asking to make it imposible to drop bombs from anywhere else BUT the bomb sight.
And who the said anything about this being the BK's game? Or thread? Its my thread, and my opinion. I fly bombers, I like them, I enjoy them and I use them how they were intended to be used. When I see you making your dives into a base with lancs and B17's I cant help but laugh. Because it is such a joke.
I will say that it is not just you either 999, its a great many players using the bombers in the gamiest way posible. They need to be changed to be fixed. I understand you to not have or may not have 2 hours for one single bomber sortie, but you guys cant take 5-10 minutes and grab some alt rather than roll into a base and dive bomb things?
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Morpheus sir,
Lets walk this dog all the way down the street.......So am I to beleive that what you find revolting about bombers is the lack of authenticy... am I to beleive your a purists? That you simply care how the bombers are flown .
No.... I beleive your interest is a much more selfish one...exposed when you state "when I see Quake high flyers like you wrecking the fun for everyone else I'm going to say it"
I'll be happy to stand by my reputation and my gamemanship. And I will state it again that what people find offensive about the Bk's is that they think they can and do tell everyone else how to play the game..and I'm hoping that you will stand by your reputaion also sir!
999000
Superdud... this is what I would add.... the game is not broken.....I don't beleive I have the right to tell anyone else they are wrong! I can only offer my perspective.
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.......So am I to beleive that what you find revolting about bombers is the lack of authenticy... ?
Um, have you bothered to read a single thing in this thread?
You haven't if you're expecting an answer to that.
No.... I beleive your interest is a much more selfish one...exposed when you state "when I see Quake high flyers like you wrecking the fun for everyone else I'm going to say it"
Selfish? No.
I disagree with how bombers are allowed to be flown. Allowed to be flown. Why walk ten miles when you can get to the same place in three.
All you're saying here is "dont tell me how to play my game". Well guess what... I'm not. I didnt when I started this thread, and I'm not now either.
And I will state it again that what people find offensive about the Bk's is that they think they can and do tell everyone else how to play the game..
Guess what genious, I havent done any such thing. The fact you said that at all proves to me you know nothing of what this thread is about, or my disagreement with HTC and how they have their bombers modeled in the MA. This has nothing to do with you. Got it? I dont care about you, I care about how the bombers are allowed to be used.
And have you noticed that more than just BK's are here replying in favor of this idea? More Non-Bk's have responded than have the BK's. So what's your excuse now?
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Would the bomb-racks used in WW2 function properly if the plane were at a steep angle? They don't look like they were built for it, seems like you could pretty easily blow your plane up.
And what's up with the no compression in heavies? When I see movies where they take a bomber into a steep dive for whatever reason it seems that pulling back on the wheel hard enough to get the plane to level out is near impossible.
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Originally posted by pellik
And what's up with the no compression in heavies? When I see movies where they take a bomber into a steep dive for whatever reason it seems that pulling back on the stick hard enough to get the plane to level out is near impossible.
What if we have Otto?
(http://www.bgu.ac.il/noar/students/interhug967/gil/tv-movie/airplane/otto.jpg)
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Originally posted by Sandman
What if we have Otto?
(http://www.bgu.ac.il/noar/students/interhug967/gil/tv-movie/airplane/otto.jpg)
Two things would really work against Otto in the aforementioned situation.
1) During a rapid dive the air pressure would be quicly increasing outside of Otto.
2) No female flight attendents in WW2 bombers to blow Otto back up to par.
These two things leave Otto rather flaccid and limp wristed.
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Sounds like you've given this a lot of thought. I defer to your expertise. ;)
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Otto rocks!
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I picked the wrong week to quit drinking coffee...
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Morpheus sir,
First you say....."I've seen you come in 100 feet off the deck STRAIGHT at a CV. Ack blazing tearing you to shreads. You'll do this over and over and over and over and over until you or tatertot or any 1 of your dozen bomber cronnies in NOE buffs get's through enough times with eggs on the CV and its dead. Or the hangers are dead ".... "I dont agree with how you fly buffs, sorry, I'm never going to. I dont care how many kids you have, how long you've flown or havent flown. When you stop flying via the Air Quake Way maybe my sentiments towards how you fly em will change. Until then, you're doing all the wrong things in them. And that is of course in my opinion. "
Then you say...."Guess what genious, I havent done any such thing. The fact you said that at all proves to me you know nothing of what this thread is about, or my disagreement with HTC and how they have their bombers modeled in the MA. This has nothing to do with you. Got it? I dont care about you, I care about how the bombers are allowed to be used. "
Morpheus sir, you seem to be a bit inconsistant here sir.... it is important to demonstrate integrity in life........
If your issue is with HT I can respect that sir. But what is important is that you check your baggage at the MA door..and don't take your frustration "kicking the dog" out on others.
999000
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Originally posted by pellik
Would the bomb-racks used in WW2 function properly if the plane were at a steep angle? They don't look like they were built for it, seems like you could pretty easily blow your plane up.
Bombs have to fall a certain distance before they arm themselves.
The usually have a little propeller type thingie that has to turn some many times before the bomb will arm.
Modern high explosives (like used in WW2) just don't go off by hitting them or by them hitting something from the fall. They require a detonator that must be armed and must go off first. The actual explosives of the bomb are a secondary explosion set off by the small detonator.
Which on second thought makes me wonder.
How far did a buffs bombs have to fall before they armed themselves? And would our divebombing Lancs have only dropped duds?