Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: EagleEyes on November 16, 2005, 12:21:38 AM
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I dont know if its just me and my squaddies, but ive noticed that the P-51D's .50 cals seems not to be doing the damage it should be. Today i flew with a squaddie (Fish31st) and we both would hammer planes at very close range (300 or less) and get multiple hits and they planes just kept on flying. Then they would take 1 shot at us and we'd be dead. I know some of you smartazz's will say we need to aim better and all but thats not it. Ive damaged a plane more with a spitfires .303s then i have with the P-51D's .50 cals. Has anyone else noticed this or are we (31st bomber barons) just imagining it?
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Egle31
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Keyword...
Concentrated shots
more bullets should land on the same spot to inflict heavy damage. You need to hold at least 3 seconds on the trigger for the *shredder* to take in effect:)
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Well, I don't know you sir
:)
But I do know that Fish is a deadly shot, and a great pilot to fly with. It sounds like some kind of server problem...
Although, in my VERY humble opinion, the 50s are a bit undermodeled on the fighters. That may be because with 30 of them on a buff box set, they are uber weapons. It may be a game play balance thingie that reduces the fighters 50 cal damage???
I think I would fly the F4U-1 a lot more if the 50s were more effective than just being assist makers.
The game play does favor cannons, and I am not sure there is really a cure for that though. I sure don't have one :(
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Originally posted by 1K3
Keyword...
Concentrated shots
more bullets should land on the same spot to inflict heavy damage. You need to hold at least 3 seconds on the trigger for the *shredder* to take in effect:)
Not sure how more concentrated you can get when your 200 behind a 109 and see hits all over the plane. Like i said, i dont know if the modeling is off or what, but it sucks. Seemed to get worse after this last update. Hope HTC fixes it soon! The P-51D is my baby! And i dnt think it has anythign to do with the server because a lot of members of the 31st have noticed this as well. Even some of the other bish, so agian not sure whats going on but i hope its fixed soon!
Egle31
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Originally posted by 1K3
more bullets should land on the same spot to inflict heavy damage. You need to hold at least 3 seconds on the trigger for the *shredder* to take in effect:)
3 seconds? :eek: 3 seconds concentrated burst from 6x12 guns will rip b-24 in pieces. 1 sec enough for any fighter usually.
imho 0.5 cal is not undermodelled, it just work in a different way than real.
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Originally posted by Oleg
3 seconds? :eek: 3 seconds concentrated burst from 6x12 guns will rip b-24 in pieces. 1 sec enough for any fighter usually.
50 cals will only set the B24s on fire ;)
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You need to hold at least 3 seconds on the trigger for the *shredder* to take in effect
An exaggeration little too big, I'm afraid. IIRC the AH M2 .50 is modelled at 800 r/pm, which would equate to 13.3 rounds per second. A three second shot at perfect aim would land 240 rounds on a target plane - which is way over what it is now. Offline tests can easily show that on average 20~30 rounds of concentrated fire is enough to set the plane ablaze, or rip a wing off, or explode the plane - depending on where the rounds are landed.
In other words, indeed a "3-second shot" may be required sometimes - but that's assuming about 90% of fired rounds miss and only about 10% of them connect.
Not sure how more concentrated you can get when your 200 behind a 109 and see hits all over the plane. Like i said, i dont know if the modeling is off or what, but it sucks. Seemed to get worse after this last update. Hope HTC fixes it soon! The P-51D is my baby! And i dnt think it has anythign to do with the server because a lot of members of the 31st have noticed this as well. Even some of the other bish, so agian not sure whats going on but i hope its fixed soon!
Convergence distance is a huge issue with planes that have wing-mounted guns. Achieving a "perfectly aimed, perfectly concentrated" shot is always a difficult thing. Add in the fact that the target is usually actively trying to dodge the bullets, and the end result is usually hits spread all over the plane. Being at "200 distance" doesn't mean anything by itself, and it certainly does not mean that the shots are concentrated, just because the range is close.
Not to be blunt, but if anything "sucks", there is a serious chance that it might be your aim, and not the game. It's not very surprising, as through the years I've been at this forum, I haven't seen a single case where someone would come up with a complaint/inquiry which lay fault to themselves before they fault the system. Unless you are suffering a "rubber bullet" syndrome(which is only feasible with certain graphic settings), or severe internet problems(which the problem will manifest universally over all planes and all guns), the .50 "problem" is at best, a misconception.
I suggest you go offline and test what the .50s can do.
Record the material and count the shots landed to kill. And then, compare it with your actual/typical MA recording and count the shots there. 9 times out of 10, people land A LOT LESS SHOTS than they are claiming to be, and that's a fact.
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Ive damaged a plane more with a spitfires .303s then i have with the P-51D's .50 cals. Has anyone else noticed this or are we (31st bomber barons) just imagining it?
When in the room controls the lethality of the 50 cals. is the same control as the .303's
It's called the soft lethality setting.
We hear talk of Nudered 109's,and now P-51-D's Hmmmmmm
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Think your imagining it.
Was down to only 50 cals on a XVI, took a good concentrated burst to bring down an F4U.
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and no one mentioned to check convergence settings.
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I fly the F4U series of aircraft regularly. I love to buff hunt in an F4U-1 and do fairly well againts the buffs with 6 .50cals; I don't do too badly against fighters, either, with .50 cals.
Convergence issues are a key factor in landing good solid hits with .50 cals, unless you fly the nose mounted .50 cal aircraft.
If you " spray and pray " with .50's, you'll likely get " lucky " a time, or, two, but you'll not become proficient with them. Like the .303, the .50s are deadlier up close than they are at distance.
So, perhaps, to best use the .50s to advantage, one may want to get close, very close....perhaps a range of 250, or less, before releasing the devastating firepower of 6 .50 calibers, and that means you must first outfly your opponent (by getting on his six).
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I think they are testing the TOD "luck" setting in this patch
sometimes the 109f explodes them and other tmes, when I have "bad luck", I can barely land a hit or the hits that do land have hardly any effect
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I know all about convergence and everything. Im a full blooded turnfighter and wont shoot anything unless its within 300. My Convergence is set at 250 for the P-51D. Im not trying to complain or anything like that, i was just woundering if anybody else was having the same problem. Thanks for your help guys and i guess its obviouse that its just something i am dealing with.
<<>> To all who helped
Egle31
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the thing to understand about 50cal programming in AH is all 50 cals on every fighter use the same 50 cal coding and there is no difference between a spitfire 50 cal, a p47 50 cal, a p51 50 cal. a p38 50 cal. it all comes from the same source file. the only real difference is the number of 50 cals and their placement on the plane.
try setting convergence to 200 thats where I found most of my shots at and set my convergence acordingly.
dispersion and convergence are the big gest factor in what you are seeing. the 4 little 50 cal on the 38 are deadly because they cluster and fire without convergence at all ranges.
if you arent firing at convergence your not going to be doing nearly as much damage.
there may be a bug but if there was a 50 cal bug it would affect all 50 cal armed planes.
I think across the board the 50 cal is set to a lower damage setting than it was many versions ago but it seems pretty realistic to me though it can be frustrating.
concentrated precise fire on a single area is the only real solution to your problem baring anything wacky happening.
btw hows "AMERICAN BEAUTY" working out? :)
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Fester, WE LOVE IT!! Its the only skin we fly with our Pony's! Thank you so much sir!! Its the best skin there is!
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Egle31
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I fly the P-51D fairly often, and anytime I take a good stabilized shot (i.e. bouncing a target that is flying straight and level) a two second burst from 400-200 yards (my convergence is set to 325 for all 3 pairs) as I close on them will completely destroy any fighter. I see the same results even in the 4 gun P-51B. Occasionally in a situation like this I won't get the kill on the first pass, and it's always because I didn't hold the pipper steady on the target.
One thing that I noticed was causing me a lot of problems was that I use a twisty stick and would often find myself skidding or slipping with the rudder while shooting - I increased the dead band on the rudder axis and made the rudder progression much more gradual (so I could still get full rudder throw, but would only get a little for the first part of the travel). This seems to have helped a lot - besides this, I just try and make a concious effort to stablize the airplane and get off the rudder before I shoot when I have the chance (of course this applies more to bouncing airplanes then deflection shots on a target you are turning after).
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It's a given that the 50 cals have been dialed back since AH2 rolled out. I once swore that the 50's on the AH1 FM2 were far deadlier than any other 50 cal plane loadout.
Shane raised the issue of convergence (or lack of mentioning the topic) and in that respect I have a question I've never put forth. Here goes:
If a P51D is configured with 6 50's, all set to d650, a burst of ammo will all converge 650 yards out...assuming straight and level flight...right? The same scenerio using d325 will have all ammo converging at 325 yards...and at 650 they will pattern out to the opposite location of the gun mount positions...right?
It seems logical to assume that using the d650 convergence would result in the greatest concentration of firepower at any target between you and 650 yards out. Guys like Levi who NEVER miss anything can afford to set convergence to the mainstream setting of 250 - 350, whereas dweebs like me who land maybe 10% of their shots would be better off with the d650 convergence...no? If not, why?
DmdMax
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Originally posted by Sable
I increased the dead band on the rudder axis and made the rudder progression much more gradual (so I could still get full rudder throw, but would only get a little for the first part of the travel).
Sable can you describe the rudder axis scaling from left to right on the slider window? How much deadband do you use...on a level of 1 to 10
DmdMax
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Originally posted by EagleEyes
Not sure how more concentrated you can get when your 200 behind a 109 and see hits all over the plane.
All over the plane? That's not concentrated, then. Our of convergence, maybe wavering aim. Most of the bullets are missing the target, as you was shooting them in a large cloud around the target. You need to land the bullets _concentrated_ into a single location to make them really count, instead spraying all over the target and not making critical failure into a single component.
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Think of the path of rounds from each of your guns as a cone, rather then a beam (this is due to the random dispersion caused by imperfections in the gun, the bullet, and the mount). By the time the cones converge at 650 yards, their diameter is bigger then the target airplane, and a lot of the rounds are missing. And if you shoot at a target at 200 yards, now your cones are much narrower and they are passing to the sides of the targets fueselage (assuming your aim is right on) and only a few of the wilder rounds are striking the fueselage and a few are hitting the wings. In this case you aren't getting a lethal concentration of hits at any range. Now if you use a shorter convergence like 200-300yards or so when you fire at your convergence you are getting a much higher concentration of strikes on the target - but as you move past your convergence you rapidly lose that concentration due to the double effect of the diverging paths of your rounds, and the increasing dispersion. I find that 325 yards seems to work best for me in the US planes - I open fire at 400 yards normally, and 600 for short bursst on a target I'm pursuing and trying to get to turn.
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Originally posted by DMax
Sable can you describe the rudder axis scaling from left to right on the slider window? How much deadband do you use...on a level of 1 to 10
DmdMax
I'll look up my settings when I get home tonight.
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DMax, another point on convergence. MGs are strictly a kinetic energy weapon. The longer the time-of-flight the lower the kinetic energy the projectile has. Therefor hitting a target at d600 will produce less damage per projectile then hitting a target at d300.
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Good point Clifra. Let me restate my original question another way ---
Two P51D's...1st one has convergence set to d300, 2nd one has convergence set to d640. Each one opens fire on a target at 400 yrds in the same situation...which convergence setting does more damage to the target?
DmdMax
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The Fifties are at the damage level they should be.
However, the damage models aren't. Currently, all the control lines INSIDE of the aircraft are not modeled.
I.E. A good shot on a wing has a good possibility of severing control lines to the ailerion, not counting any structural damage.
So if you get a good shot on a wing, there's a good chance that the plane would lose maneuverability.
Or if you hit the tail section. There's good possibilities that you could take out Rudder AND Elevator controls.
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Now wait, .50s themselves are not undermodeled. However I do think that there is something wrong with the ponies .50s tho. Now I know "all .50s are the same", but I'm callin' BS. I by no means have problems getting kills in a pony, but the guns definitely seem weaker than an F6 and F4. Hell they seem weaker than an FM2. I'm not the only one who has noticed this either. But When I brought this topic up before, I got an answer, that I don't know if it's true or not. Supposedly it has to do with the way the guns are mounted on the plane? Anyone have any knowledge of this? K, you might know.
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Originally posted by EagleEyes
I dont know if its just me and my squaddies, but ive noticed that the P-51D's .50 cals seems not to be doing the damage it should be. Today i flew with a squaddie (Fish31st) and we both would hammer planes at very close range (300 or less) and get multiple hits and they planes just kept on flying. Then they would take 1 shot at us and we'd be dead. I know some of you smartazz's will say we need to aim better and all but thats not it. Ive damaged a plane more with a spitfires .303s then i have with the P-51D's .50 cals. Has anyone else noticed this or are we (31st bomber barons) just imagining it?
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Egle31
1 word - P-47. And aim better.
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IMO the .50 cals and all MG's are undermoddled, well maybe not .303's, those are ok... But if anyone has ever shot a .50 cal or seen 1 in action they would know that a 1/2 second burst placed right is plenty to take out anything, I generally set my wing mounted MG's 300-350 depending on plane. I have emptied my entire load of .50 cals into bombers and not have them do anything but make an engine smoke, somethings up there. About 2 years ago we were playing a minor league football game in against an Army team that was put together in Ft. Hood, TX. After the game we got to watch some cool demos. ( we won the game too :) ) I got to see a Barret .50 cal sniper rifle shoot at a 5' thick bricked wall that was about 10' high, the bullet go's right through the wall, leaving a good 1-2' exit hole, and the shooter was a good 2,000 yards away... I have also seen an automatic .50 cal ontop of a tank open up on that same wall, and in about 10-20 seconds there was no wall... On the same note the 20mm needs to be upped as well, a 20mm has an explosive in it, almost equal to a hand grenade, its funny when I hit a plane with 10 ea 20mm's and its still flyin... I know modern day 20mm's and .50cals will be better and more accurate, but a 20mm will make about a 3-5' exit hole on a Bradly tank, I know a Bradly tank doesnt have allot of armour, but it definately has more than the AC in AH2.
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Iceman, were those 20mm's anti air; he, or anti armor? I'm no gun guy, but there are huge differences between rounds with nominally the same "caliber".
Eagel, be aware of the "hit box" concept too. Imagine the target is made up of interconnected discrete boxes, rather than beign just "a plane". I understand that AH models damage by tracking injury to aircraft box by box; the damage shows up when the total for a given "hit box" crosses a threshold. Above that, pieces fly off; below it, no damage is seen. (I'm unclear bout whether partail damage affects G-load tolerance, etc, but I dont think it does.)
So again, the important thing is to concentrate the fire. If you fill every hit box up to its brim with damage but never cross teh threshold, the plane looks untouched -- so theoretically you could pour A LOT of 50s into a buff and see nothing.
To answer your question, I have seen no change or problem with the 50s in ponies or any other ride. Youre comment about getting hits "all over" the target pretty clearly suggests where the problem came from in that encounter.
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Originally posted by 1K3
50 cals will only set the B24s on fire ;)
4x .50 cals will easily remove any part on a bomber.
ack-ack
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Iceman, were those 20mm's anti air; he, or anti armor? I'm no gun guy, but there are huge differences between rounds with nominally the same "caliber".
I have no clue, they were shooting it off of some type of troop transport, I can't remember what they called it but they were firing at an older Bradly tank / vehicle and a 5' thick wall. Maybe there was something "special" to them, I'm not sure, but can tell u this, those 20mm's they were shooting were awesome, its a real deep throaty sound when fired and when it hit that tank at the end of the range... ohh man, all u see is bright sparks fly out from any opening in the tank from 1 shot, anything inside would be toast for sure... for all I know they could have been depleted uranium rounds but they were awesome...
Just seems to me that there is a HUGE gap in damage between a 20mm and a 30mm, a 20mm in AH2 seems a underpowered whereas a 30mm will blow anything up
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A .50bmg is going to punch .5" holes in metal structures that it can penetrate. If one of those passes through the aluminum skin of the wing without striking a fuel tank, or a gun etc. it is really nothing more then a pinsalamander to the airplane. In real life, in order to destroy airplanes, guns like the .50 cal relied on striking critical structures within the airplane - fuel tanks, oil lines, radiators and coolant lines, engines, pilots, control cables etc. Of course, airplane designers did their best to protect these things. They put armor on the back of the pilots seat, installed self sealing fuel tanks etc.
I have a copy of an RAF test of vulnerability of the Bf109. They shot .303, .50, and 20mm rounds at it from a variety of angles. They found that from dead 6, the .50 couldn't penetrate the pilots armor at 100 yards because it was passing through the fueselage structures and the gas tank before it got there. Since the fuel tanks were self sealing they could withstand a few individual hits without causing major leaks. The engine was almost impossible to damage from this angle, because any strikes to it were at such a low angle of incidence they would just ricochet off. The radiators were very vulnerable however, and any strikes to them resulted in leaks which would cause the engine to overheat in a matter of minutes. So in order to shoot one down from that angle, you had to either score a hit on the radiator, or enough fueselage strikes that either the gas tank started leaking and caught fire, or the pilot's armor failed from being battered by enough hits - this meant getting close and hitting them with a LOT of bullets.
Interestingly, the 20mm cannons weren't much different - the HE rounds were better against the fuel tank but still not a 1 hit guarantee of fire, and the AP rounds were better at penetrating the pilots armor. The causes of the airplane going down were the same - it just required fewer rounds to do it.
Of course from different angles the story changed - at higher deflection angles the pilot and engine were now more vulnerable, and a larger cross-section of the radiator was visible as well, now you had to make a much more difficult deflection shot to hit the target to begin with.
Now in AH we have more of a "hit point" oriented system where planes primarily get shot down by having big pieces sawed off (wings, tails etc). But the end result seems to be about the same - if you get in close and score a solid 1-2 second burst, it's usually a kill. The cannons generally kill more quickly.
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I had a pony blow apart all 3 of my bombers in 3 passes last night, granted I suck at gunning in bombers cause it kills my FR but dang. Concentrated hits.
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Originally posted by Iceman24
On the same note the 20mm needs to be upped as well, a 20mm has an explosive in it, almost equal to a hand grenade, its funny when I hit a plane with 10 ea 20mm's and its still flyin... I know modern day 20mm's and .50cals will be better and more accurate, but a 20mm will make about a 3-5' exit hole on a Bradly tank, I know a Bradly tank doesnt have allot of armour, but it definately has more than the AC in AH2.
Keep in mind there are several different 20 mm cannon represented in AH2. A 20mm Hispano packs a helluva alot more punch than a Type 99 20 mm. I would like to know how the Hispano round compares to the round used in the present day 20mm Vulcan cannon.
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I can admit when i am wrong, and i was wrong guys! This morning i flew my P-51D and attacked a flight of B-24s came in going almost 500 mph and closed to within 400 yrds and opened fire. Bomber blew up like a mother trucker! Came around and did the same thing on the sec pass. Have my convergence set to 300. Guess the P-51D isnt a much of a turn fighter, zoom and boom!
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Guys thanks for your help!
Egle31
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P51D is not a turn n' Burn Plane, although their are some that can and will show you differently, it is more suited for Energy Fighting or the Bored N Zoomed type of fighting.
as for different Platform pertaining to 50 cal guns. I have much better success using the 50s in the F4U-1 and F4U-1d or F6f over the P51D , I find the F4U or F6f has a much more stable gun platform and am able to land hits easier.
My new found love for the P40E has also show to have a very stable gun platform. If I am flying a P51D I have to be sure to unload my G's ( let go of stick / stable out my flight ) before I shoot. If I am in a turn and try to fire I miss most of the time. Unloading before shooting is key for me in the P51 planes.
Everyone has their prefered shot, I prefer to use crossing and/or deflection shots since I fly mostly 50 cal mounted planes, dead 6 shots are somewhat a waste of time for me when flying planes with 50 cal. YMMV
as for convergence that is a preference for each individual, you hear some say 200, 225, 250 300 or 400 etc......I have always prefered 350 for all 50 cal mounted weapons, flying the 38 I prefer 350 for the 50s and 400 for the Cannon.
I do not find the hitting power of the 50s differ from 1 plane to the next though, it is all in the way the guns are mounted and how stable the platform is........
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Well, I don't know you sir :)
But I do know that Fish is a deadly shot, and a great pilot to fly with. It sounds like some kind of server problem...
Although, in my VERY humble opinion, the 50s are a bit undermodeled on the fighters. That may be because with 30 of them on a buff box set, they are uber weapons. It may be a game play balance thingie that reduces the fighters 50 cal damage???
I think I would fly the F4U-1 a lot more if the 50s were more effective than just being assist makers.
The game play does favor cannons, and I am not sure there is really a cure for that though. I sure don't have one :(
I fly the f4u1 and routinely get 4-6 kills per run, sometimes 2-3 of which are bombers.
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450 to 525 range is best for all situations.
At 600-800 your bullets will still hit a target's wing tips "if aimed at hull"
under 400 and everything hits dead on.
also try seting 4 of the guns to one range "say 450", and another set to a longer range "600".
use the x2 .50's to get a range of your target,then close in and hammer down with the other x4 .50's
This will always resault in some type of combat damage.
Always bust fire at your target unless you have him in a solid target bead, otherwise your wasteing ammo.
I find three quick gun busts will do more to a target than 3 seconds of full fire.
I dunno why, its just the way it is.
Also, didnt the p51 "or other planes too" have a option of fireing each gun diffrently?
like all three on the left wing, then all three on the right?
then all six at the same time, then a sucession of 1 gun bullet per gun, per wing. "1,2,3,4,5,6" Or "1-3,4-6" "full left wing salvo, then right wing salvo" or all "6" "normal"
I recall some gun cams where you could clearly see "just the left wing guns" fireing then a few seconds later just the right wing guns fireing,then the pilot would hammer down and all guns would shoot.
maby it was a switch on the dash changeing gun fireing syncs, or weapon group's "Shrugs"
Intell much apreciated.