Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on November 16, 2005, 10:20:20 AM
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Hi All,
The following link is to a children's cartoon shown on Iranian (state run) TV on October 28th. It shows the story of how a young Palestinian boy decided to become a Martyr in order to avenge the death of his family, who are graphically slaughtered by laughing Israeli thugs, and to drive the "illegitimate atheists" from their holy land.
Some of the stirring dialogue from the movie:
Teen Martyr: "We must not allow these Bloodthirsty Zionists to take even one inch of our holy land. If necessary, we will die this way."
Resistance Leader: "Well said! I applaud your deep faith."
Mother of one of the boys: "Farewell my dear ones. God willing you'll be successful"
Teen Martyr: "I trust in God! Allahu Akbar!"
Iranian Cartoon (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=87439&ak=null)
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I wonder how "Red Dawn" went over in Cuba?
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And I wonder how many are outraged at "South Park" dialogs too.
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I don't think Red Dawn targeted toddlers, and kids to age 10, and I'm quite sure South Park is written for adults.
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I could be totally wrong about this... but I don't think Matt or Trey have ever advocated children with semtex belts... or jihad at all for that matter.
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Sesame Street taught kids how to become junkies.
Snuffalustudmuffinus and Cookie Monster weren't examples of people living a clean life.
And Bert and Ernie... shortly thereafter coming out of the closet became popular.
-SW
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This wouldn't be by Memri by any chance, would it?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Sesame Street taught kids how to become junkies.
Snuffalustudmuffinus and Cookie Monster weren't examples of people living a clean life.
And Bert and Ernie... shortly thereafter coming out of the closet became popular.
-SW
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Yeah it was, what's Memri?
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Yeah it was, what's Memri?
Google is your friend.
http://www.memri.org/
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Memri is the largest clearing house of translated versions of Middle Eastern media.
Here is their profile:
About Us
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic and Farsi media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.
Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization. MEMRI's headquarters is located in Washington, DC with branch offices in Berlin, London, Jerusalem, and Baghdad, and has a project active in Sweden. MEMRI research is translated to English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish, and occasionally Turkish and Russian.
MEMRI TV Monitor Project
MEMRI's TV monitoring center operates 16 hours per day, overseeing every major Arab channel. The center has the in-house capability to translate, subtitle and distribute the segments from Arab TV in real time to Western news channels across the world, effectively "Bridging the Language Gap Between the Middle East and the West."
MEMRI's TV monitoring center focuses on political, cultural, religious, and other developments and debates in the Arab and Muslim world and in Iran.
The project archive currently includes clips from the following sources and TV guests:
Sources:
Al-Arabiya TV (Dubai), Dubai TV (Dubai), Dream2 TV (Egypt), Channel 1 TV (Egypt), Palestinian Authority TV (Gaza), Al-'Alam TV (Iran), Sahar TV (Iran), Jaam-E-Jam TV (Iran), IRINN (Iran), New TV (Lebanon), Al-Manar TV (Lebanon), MBC TV (London), Al-Jazeera TV (Qatar), Qatar TV (Qatar), Iqra TV (Saudi Arabia), Channel 1 TV (Saudi Arabia), Syrian TV (Syria), Al-Majd TV (United Arab Emirates).
TV Guests:
Islamic clerics and leaders, Arab and Iranian journalists and editors (working in the Middle East and the West), academics and researchers, public opinion and policy makers, politicians (parliamentarians and government officials), military experts, intellectuals, and authors.
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Man, those kids have blown up so fast!
(http://maggiek.web.aplus.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/childsuicidebomber.jpg)
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Is that seriously shown to kids? Pretty ****ed up if it is. Hell, the cartoon itself is very ****ed up.
-SW
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Memri is an orginisation set up by a group of right wing Israelis to diseminate their own translations of carefully selected Islamic media.
The two founders were Meyrav Wurmser and Yigal Carmon
Carmon was a colonel in Israeli intelligence, he served as the acting head of the Israeli occupation civil administration in the West Bank and Gaza, then went on to serve as Yitzhak Shamir's advisor on terrorism (as if Shamir needed an advisor ;) ).
Meyrav Wurmser is an Israeli neo-con, married to David Wurmser, who is one of John Bolton's advisers. Together with Richard Pearle they heldped co-author a report on securing the future of Israel, which you can read here: http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm
Memri no longer says who it's staff members are, but of the inital 6, 3 were ex members of Israeli intelligence, another served in the Israeli army.
In short, Memri has a very clear agenda, and they chose their translations to fit that agenda. (It was Memri, and only Memri, who interpreted Bin Laden's speech as meaning he would launch terrorist attacks against those US states which voted for Bush in the 2004 election)
Memri used to claim it also provided translations of Hebrew media, but it did so very rarely, if ever. I've never seen a translation of one of Ovadia Yosef's speeches put out by Memri, for example. (His blaming of Bush for bringing down God's wrath on New Orleans would be a good example)
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Thanks for supplying a little context to Seagoon's post.
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Hi all,
Sometimes its difficult to know where to begin in responding to posts that view every worldview as equally valid and coherent, so that an 80s Hollywood fantasy about American Partisans fighting against a Soviet takeover of the USA or a raunchy post-modern cartoon series designed to offend every imaginable group (other than College Students) are cited as justification for a cartoon designed to encourage Muslim children to become suicide bombers.
This program is just one of many broadcast every week on Iranian TV specifically intended to recruit young Muslim men and women, boys and girls for the Jihad. Most of these programs are aimed at Israel specifically, but many target America and Europe. They are produced with the ok not only of Iran's government, but the seal of approval of her Mullahs.
If the American government produced a cartoon series ok'd by religious leaders encouraging American teens to join terrorist organizations and participate in suicide attacks based on faith, the entire world would go balistic and the US Government would topple in a matter of days. However, when the Iranians (and other ME governments) broadcast them on a daily basis, we all shrug our shoulders and yawn. "It's all relative" we say, or worse "Well, [insert America or Israel here] deserves it for what they've done/are doing/will do."
It reminds me of an article in the late Steve Vincent's Redzone blog (the author, a journalist, was shot by Shi'ites in Basra) about how one Iraqi female translator for the US military became disgusted that Americans could no longer appreciate that some worldviews were actually better than others, here is part of the interaction the translator "Layla" had with an Air Force Captain:
"Collecting himself, "But should we really get involved in choosing one political group over another?" the Captain countered. "I mean, I've always believed that we shouldn't project American values onto other cultures--that we should let them be. Who is to say we are right and they are wrong?"
And there it was, the familiar Cultural-Values-Are-Relative argument, surprising though it was to hear it from a military man. But that, too, I realized, was part of American Naiveté: the belief, evidently filtering down from ivy-league academia to Main Street, U.S.A., that our values are no better (and usually worse) than those of foreign nations; that we have no right to judge "the Other;" and that imposing our way of life on the world is the sure path to the bleak morality of Empire (cue the Darth Vader theme).
But Layla would have none of it. "No, believe me!" she exclaimed, sitting forward on her stool. "These religious parties are wrong! Look at them, their corruption, their incompetence, their stupidity! Look at the way they treat women! How can you say you cannot judge them? Why shouldn't your apply your own cultural values?"
It was a moment I wish every muddle-headed college kid and Western-civilization-hating leftist could have witnessed: an Air Force Captain quoting chapter and verse from the new American Gospel of Multiculturalism, only to have a flesh and blood representative of "the Other" declare that he was incorrect, that discriminations and judgment between cultures are possible--necessary--especially when it comes to the absolutely unacceptable way Middle Eastern Arabs treat women. And though Layla would not have pushed the point this far, I couldn't resist. "You know, Captain," I said, "sometimes American values are just--better."
Steve Vincent and his translator got it, but apparently the idea that teaching young children to blow up Jews and Christians is simply evil is too much for the jaded palates of self-loathing westerners.
- SEAGOON
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Nashwan,
Perhaps you can watch the cartoon and explain how that cartoon shown on Iranian TV was not actually encouraging children to engage in suicide operations or depicting the Israelis as bloodthirsty murderers. And how it was good and wholesome fare for kiddies. I await your reinterpretation of the material.
While we're at it. My word, wasn't that "Triumph of the Will" stuff in the 30's inspiring? Yessiree solid German family values programming there. Too bad it was all taken out of context by Frank Capra and his vicious propagandists in that awful "Why we Fight" series.
Color me disgusted.
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So Seagoon; are you saying that flick isn't produced (or "selectively" translated) by ex-members of Israeli intelligence service and neo-cons and is most likely made and "altered" for propaganda use?
Or short: Do you trust the translation was accurate?
Because if you do I have few bridges I could sell to you :)
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Hi Staga,
Originally posted by Staga
So Seagoon; are you saying that flick isn't produced (or "selectively" translated) by ex-members of Israeli intelligence service and neo-cons and is most likely made and "altered" for propaganda use?
Or short: Do you trust the translation was accurate?
Because if you do I have few bridges I could sell to you :)
Respectfully, try to reign in the left-wing conspiracy theory thing for a moment.
Memri has been accused of "tweaking" translations of Arab Media, to date they have never been accused - even in Arab papers - of PRODUCING material and claiming it was made by Arabs. That would be discovered and exposed in a heartbeat and that would be the end of MEMRI. Western media and governments would no longer be allowed to carry any of their materials. Even the NPOV dispute on MEMRI at Wiki ( Click here for the Wiki Article on MEMRI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMRI) ) doesn't advance that claim.
The cartoon in question was produced in Iran, carries the Iranian TV logo, and is similar to other production I've seen on Arabic websites. In fact, its not even as bad as some of the music videos I've seen. If you want, go ahead and put a strip of tape over the translations and watch it again. The message is essentially the same even without the translations.
Engaging in a kill the messenger argument over MEMRI doesn't change the substance of the Iranian cartoon. It does however indicate why the West is rapidly losing this particular war.
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Funny. IRIB sattelite TV broadcasts in Farsi and English as well. Why subtitles then?
Can anyone tell is it in Farsi or Arabian language?
I think we should kindly ask Babek to comment on this film.
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What was the guys name that George C Scott played in Dr Strangelove?
"I say we skip parts three and four and just launch the danged missles now".
The result will be the same and everyone will feel good.
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Ok Sorry guys, my mistake.
Here is what I should have posted:
"Hateful organizations like MEMRI continue to make it seem like the peace-loving non-religious Iranian government is bent on destroying Israel and encouraging middle eastern youths to take part in martyrdom operations. Nothing could be further from the truth, for as the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said in widely reported remarks at the recent World Without Zionism conference:
"The creation of the occupying regime in Jerusalem is a strong action by the ruling arrogant world order against the world of Islam. ... The Islamic nation will not allow its historic enemy to exist in its heartland" Ahmadinejad then went on to inspire the conference attendees to visions of peace by pointing out that the current wave martyrdom attacks would certainly wipe Israel off the map.
Which in the authoritative New Living Left Retranslated Interpretation meant, "We are a peaceful nation that respects the right of all people to live in peace and does not desire to advance a religious agenda by means of violence. We certainly aren't the kind of people who would produce cartoons, music videos, and TV programs calling on youths to commit murder in the name of Islam. Islam, not that we are pushing Islam mind you, probably means Peace, after all. As the prophet AlRodni Abu King has said "Can't we all just get along?" "
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Originally posted by Boroda
Funny. IRIB sattelite TV broadcasts in Farsi and English as well. Why subtitles then?
I speak very good English! Why the condescending subtitles?
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WoW...
So you Euros who find excuses for this crap, does sticking your head in the sand ever get old?
You can watch that without reading the subtitles and tell exactly what it is about.
Even if this Memri org does mess with the translation, I really doubt they would need to for **** like this.
Comparing this to Red dawm and south park is just silly.
I could just see some of you jokers in the 30s...
"Oh that Hitler, he is just misunderstood, and those evil jews, they really overcharge in their stores so those yellow stars of david are just to let the poor germans know they could get ripped off! You see any loose dirt around here for my head?"
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I speak very good English! Why the condescending subtitles?
I don't see any reason for adding artificial subtitles to a clip from a channel that broadcasts in plain English, as well as in Farsi. I mean - with English soundtrack.
Again - can anyone find Babek and ask him for comments? He knows it better then anyone of us.
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like you'd need any subtitles to understand what this clip is all about... i'm probably a bad "euro" for thinking that this thing is just disgusting
oh well
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Sesame Street taught kids how to become junkies.
Snuffalustudmuffinus and Cookie Monster weren't examples of people living a clean life.
And Bert and Ernie... shortly thereafter coming out of the closet became popular.
-SW
:rofl
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
WoW...
So you Euros who find excuses for this crap, does sticking your head in the sand ever get old?:rolleyes:
What "euros" does what now?
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I think it is only fair to ask what we know for sure.
1. It is a disgusting cartoon.
2. It is translated by a known apologist
Anything else? Does anyone here watch Iranian TV? Could this come from an independent source? Could this be something Iranians hate yet allow as their version of free speech? Could it be a parody? Could it be something that is showing how stupid suicide can be?
I bet No One here can answer those questions, but you go right ahead and be disgusted... that is your right.
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Did anyone read the transcripts of the tv shows on family matters. :O
Makes me shudder to think what this world would be like if they ran things.
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Hi Midnight,
Originally posted by midnight Target
I think it is only fair to ask what we know for sure.
1. It is a disgusting cartoon.
2. It is translated by a known apologist
Anything else? Does anyone here watch Iranian TV? Could this come from an independent source? Could this be something Iranians hate yet allow as their version of free speech? Could it be a parody? Could it be something that is showing how stupid suicide can be?
I bet No One here can answer those questions, but you go right ahead and be disgusted... that is your right.
Let's be reasonable.
There is not, nor will there ever be an Iranian parody of martyr operations on the Irib channels. We are talking about a state were it is illegal to show a woman's ankles on the Television and where blasphemy against Allah or Muhammad is a death penalty offence. Showing a young martyr jumping and saying "Allahu Akbar" and intending it to be a parody, would never have been allowed.
The Islamic world takes this kind of thing very, very, seriously. I know we have great difficulty understanding that because we live in a society where nothing is revered or sacred any longer, but Iran is a society where an action like burning pages from the Quran could get you executed and where Adulterers are stoned to death and homosexuals are hanged. Irreverence simply isn't a legal option and there is NO such thing as "free speech" as you understand it in the Islamic Republic of Iran. This is the reality of life under Sharia law.
The IRIB channels are state run, there is no such thing as an "Independent Production" that doesn't tow the party line there. Matt and Trey would have been hung long ago.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I think it is only fair to ask what we know for sure.
1. It is a disgusting cartoon.
2. It is translated by a known apologist
Anything else? Does anyone here watch Iranian TV? Could this come from an independent source? Could this be something Iranians hate yet allow as their version of free speech? Could it be a parody? Could it be something that is showing how stupid suicide can be?
I bet No One here can answer those questions, but you go right ahead and be disgusted... that is your right.
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/119009527.jpg)
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Does anyone have any substantiation that the translations are not correct?
Can anyone provide independently derived confirmation that Memri (or whoever) falsified the "cartoon or translation"?
Do we have independent analysis that memri is not objective (or at least no more than the people who put the cartoon together)?
So far in reading the thread I see alegations of falsification of translations, out right fabrication of the cartoon but nothing to substantiate the allegation. An allegation is not proof or evidence of anything. If you have something to substantiate it please provide it, and that goes for either side of this argument. FWIW the "translation" certainly seems to follow the graphical plot line. I'm not sure what esle could be added to it to change it to a different meaning
As to the Red Dawn comparison. IIRC there were some rather successful ambushes shown in that film. This cartoon shows how some one with a perfect situation for an ambush can screw it up and end up losing it. I'd rate it as a pretty lame "training" film. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I speak very good English! Why the condescending subtitles?
She sells sea shells by the sea shore!
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Originally posted by Boroda
I don't see any reason for adding artificial subtitles to a clip from a channel that broadcasts in plain English, as well as in Farsi. I mean - with English soundtrack.
Again - can anyone find Babek and ask him for comments? He knows it better then anyone of us.
It was from a funny video of an interview of a bunch of insurgents. 1 guy had subtitles and the other guy did not, but both of them had the same accent. Anyway, back to the flame war. ****ed up video.
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Anyone seen any good Rambo movies lately?
Same **** but different package. "We are good and they are bad; kill them and glory will be ours".
Only idiots wouldn't understand that.
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Does anyone have any substantiation that the translations are not correct?
No. The translations probably are pretty accurate.
Can anyone provide independently derived confirmation that Memri (or whoever) falsified the "cartoon or translation"?
Falsified, I doubt it.
Do we have independent analysis that memri is not objective (or at least no more than the people who put the cartoon together)?
I think it's fair to say Memri are about as objective as Iranian state TV ;)
So far in reading the thread I see alegations of falsification of translations, out right fabrication of the cartoon but nothing to substantiate the allegation. An allegation is not proof or evidence of anything. If you have something to substantiate it please provide it, and that goes for either side of this argument. FWIW the "translation" certainly seems to follow the graphical plot line. I'm not sure what esle could be added to it to change it to a different meaning
Well, the plot of the cartoon is Israeli soldier kills family, boy swears vengance, boy participates in attack on Israeli military convoy, boy carries out a suicide attack on convoy.
The ending shows all the attackers and Israeli soldiers dead, with one surviving boy who walks off into the sunset. With no celebration or victory signs, it's actually close to a traditional anti-war film. Especially as the main target, the evil Israeli officer, isn't seen being killed, and his body isn't one of those shown after the battle (as far as I can see)
What we don't get with Memri is context, and we don't see any scenes they might have edited out.
What I'd really like to see for comparison is an Arab version of Memri, where they paint the West and Israel as evil based on translations of Pat Robertson, Ovaida Yosef, Jean Marie le Pen, etc. Throw in bits of Hollywood films (Black Hawk Down would be a good place to start) and you'd end up with a convincing portrayal of a west that hates anyone who isn't a white Christian,or Jew and hell bent on killing as many Muslims as possible.
It wouldn't be accurate, of course, but you can achieve a lot by presenting only one side of a story (when the other side isn't around to present their side)
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^^I find it hilarious (and scarey at the same time) at the lengths people will go to justify their obtuse views on fundamentalist muslim religions.:confused:
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Originally posted by Yeager
What was the guys name that George C Scott played in Dr Strangelove?
Buck Turgidson
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I find it hilarious (and scarey at the same time) at the lengths people will go to justify their obtuse views on fundamentalist muslim religions
Have you seen any of the propaganda videos showing suicide bombing? You know the sort, where they video the fool from a safe distance, and keep chanting Allahu Akbar when the explosion goes off?
They glorify violence.
Watch this again. The suicide bomber shouts "Allahu Akbar", then he dies, then everyone else is shown dead. There's no Allahu Akbar narration, no final Allahu Akbar message, no victory (it focuses mainly on all the terrorists being dead, and the villain of the piece is not shown dead). There's no scences of the "martyr" going to heaven, just a shot of his body, with blood coming from the mouth.
The tone of this wasn't the same as a propaganda piece. And I'm willing to bet if any of the missing scenes showed more of a propaganda style, Memri wouldn't have edited them out.
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The amount of deep reflection and searching for justification in this video by ty the leftists is amazing.
Yes it was all just a joke, its the irianian version of Saturday Night Live and the producers rights to irreverant free speech about allah are guarnteed in the 1st amendemt of Irans consititution - Iran is really just like a western liberal democracy like the ones i europe, canada and the usa so this type of programming is common and popular. In fact the free and creativeIranian state media has other great regular saturday morning cartoons where Mohammed is portrayed as a homosexual chinese jew in order to demostrate the futility of islam to all young childeren so they experience a diverse view of religion.
You guys are hillarious.
Holy crap, Nashwan even compared this to a hollywood anti war film... That's as an amazing amout of stupidy as I have ever seen on these boards...
I hope that you ride the london subway a lot Nashwan and get a chance to witness one of your heroic islamic anti war activists in action first person....
WOW!
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OK I watched it.. couldn't from work.
It is obviously not a parody. However is is also pretty different than the "suicide bomber" cartoon I was expecting.
1. The "suicide" was a personal decision
2. The attack was obviously against soldiers.
3. No one encouraged the suicide.
The level of hatred and propaganda aimed at the Jews was outrageous. The heros in the cartoon were Palistinian I assume?
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The video itself encourages suicide bombing attacks - thats the whole point, MT.
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Let me just be the first to declare that this video is bad. Also, I hate serial killers and I don't have anything at all to say to brain cancer.
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Originally posted by SOB
Let me just be the first to declare that this video is bad.
Don't flatter yourself.
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Hi MT,
Originally posted by midnight Target
OK I watched it.. couldn't from work.
It is obviously not a parody. However is is also pretty different than the "suicide bomber" cartoon I was expecting.
1. The "suicide" was a personal decision
2. The attack was obviously against soldiers.
3. No one encouraged the suicide.
The level of hatred and propaganda aimed at the Jews was outrageous. The heros in the cartoon were Palistinian I assume?
Actually, regarding your points 1 & 3 a female teacher on another board made the following observations which I thought were quite insightful:
"One of the things that I found so repulsive about the cartoon was that the leaders of the resistance didn't ask the boy to be a suicide bomber. They, in fact, tried to discourage the boys from fighting. The boy then decided to be a suicide bomber on his own. This is important in children's books. The solutions to the problems are to come from children, not adults. The reason is that the readers can relate to the child character and believe the story when the child finds his own solution. If the adults had made the boy be a suicide bomber then the children might have felt sorry for the boy. Instead the boy did what he did of his own free will and he died a glorious death."
In the end as the teacher went on to observe, we have the powerful image of the youngest boy taking up the mantle, the message: the next generation will carry on the fight, and the next, and the next, and the next, until some day the enemy are all dead or sick of resisting. We are stronger, Allah is with us, and none of us are cowards young or old.
Now, one of the things you may have missed was that this is the classic Shia martyrdom message, not Sunni and that makes a big difference. You see Ali, the prophet's cousin and husband of his daughter Fatima, was himself murdered in the succession struggles following the death of Muhammed, and his followers were almost wiped out. The Shia (short for Shiat Ali or "party of Ali") have been permanent underdogs in Islam since then and collectively they glory in the idea of continuing on faithfully fighting and resisting in spite of defeat. This message also resonates with the Palestinians. In Iraq amongst the Sunnis, the message is one of, "they may be ahead now, but we'll be victorious soon, you'll see. Just one more martyrdom attack and their back will be broken...." In a sense, historically the Shia fight to continue a struggle that can never end, while the Sunnis fight to regain their hegemony. In fact, until the 20th century, suicide attacks were far more common amongst the Shia than the Sunnis.
- SEAGOON
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Repeating over and over again...gets old fast.
Wish this thread was(http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/images/threadclosed.gif).
Mac
Isn't there enough Hate in the World that we have to bring it all into a BBS like ours?
Pffft...
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Originally posted by Seagoon
"One of the things that I found so repulsive about the cartoon was that the leaders of the resistance didn't ask the boy to be a suicide bomber. They, in fact, tried to discourage the boys from fighting. The boy then decided to be a suicide bomber on his own. This is important in children's books. The solutions to the problems are to come from children, not adults. The reason is that the readers can relate to the child character and believe the story when the child finds his own solution. If the adults had made the boy be a suicide bomber then the children might have felt sorry for the boy. Instead the boy did what he did of his own free will and he died a glorious death."
I found that very insightful.
The Shia (short for Shiat Ali or "party of Ali") have been permanent underdogs in Islam since then and collectively they glory in the idea of continuing on faithfully fighting and resisting in spite of defeat.
Underdogs compared to the Sunnis? Maybe in the past, but they got Iran, Saudi, have of Iraq what else?
In Iraq amongst the Sunnis, the message is one of, "they may be ahead now, but we'll be victorious soon, you'll see. Just one more martyrdom attack and their back will be broken...."
I'm not sure if Iraqi Sunnis would believe that. Remember, during the Iran/Iraq war the Iraqis got to see tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of Iranian Shia kill themselves in almost fruitless human wave attacks.
In fact, until the 20th century, suicide attacks were far more common amongst the Shia than the Sunnis.
And that has changed? Isn't Al-Quaeda made up of Shia?
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The Shia (short for Shiat Ali or "party of Ali") have been permanent underdogs in Islam since then and collectively they glory in the idea of continuing on faithfully fighting and resisting in spite of defeat.
[/b]
Didn't Boston win a World Series?
Then Chicago?
Scary Shia....
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Thrawn,
Saudi Arabia is Sunni, very very very Sunni. The vast majority of muslims are sunni. Shia are rather few. And Nashwan is a true idiot.
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I cant open the link to the video - so I cant tell you if it is in Farsi or not.
But about this "ShiŽites and underdogs" - thing some infos:
When the arabs conquered the Middle East they assimilated the conquered people. These people gave up their history before, their language, religion and so on and became arabs by adopting the culture of the invaders.
People from Egypt or Syria had their own culture and were willing to become arabs.
Not so the iranians. The Iranian Empire which was conquered by the arab hordes was the of the Sassanid Dynasty which existed since the year 250, a rival of the roman Empire and quite succesful in many battles against the romans. They had their own religion - an intolerant version of Zorastrism with a mighty priest caste.
But when the arabs invaded the Sassanid Empire had become corrupt and weak.
After being conquered by the arabs the arabs offered the iranians to become arabs - but they refused. Instead they started a bloody fighting against loosing the iranian heritage. The iranian language was forbidden but there was also resistance against this plan of the invaders to destroy the iranian culture.
Thats one reason why you find in Iran so many statues of poets, because people like Firdausi who wrote the Shahname were succesful to avoid that the iranian language was lost. They are admired as those who saved important parts of our culture.
The iranians also build their own version of Islam by mixing elements of their old religion and the new Islam. The result is the today shiŽite islam and it is no coincidence that the iranian mullahs wear the same style of cloths like the old sassanid priests.
So since these times there is the hate between iranians and arabs - 1st by the racial point of view (arian iranians and semite arabs) and 2nd by religion (Sunnites and ShiŽites, who consider each other as heretics).
For many years the dominating arabs who were occuping the region of Sassanid Empire were fighting brutally against the shiŽite heretics. And the shiŽite tactic was to fight also by sacrifing their fighters in suicide operations.
This martyrism is highly respected and worshipped in the shiŽite culture. It has also a great potential when the creation of fanatic troops are needed.
When Saddam and his arab hordes were trying to invade Iran Ayatollah Khomeini could rely on this fanatism. He declared that whoever dies in fighting the arab heretics will become a martyr and join paradise after death. And so he got hundredthousands of fanatic troops who were used for the human-wave-attacks against the iraqis. The losses in these attacks were huge but they kicked out the arabs from iranian territory and only the massive help from countries like France or the USA saved Saddam in these days.
Its also no coincidence where the most shiŽite people live: In Iran and the southeastern part of Iraq: These was the main area of the Sassanid Empire. South from Bagdad - today Iraq - are the ruins of the old sassanid capital. And in Iraq there are the most holy shrines of the shiŽite culture.
After the Safawid dynasty liberated Iran the shiŽites were ruling Iran - which was surrounded by (what they see) heretics. And the sunnites considered the Iranians as heretics.
This thinking remains until today where the Talibans also defined the Iranians as heretics. So it was always ridiculous for an iranian to read these propaganda-nonsense-news that Iran is supporting today Taliban fighters in Afghanistan.
Ironicly it was the policy of Bush which brought the mullahs what they mostly wanted: Control of the holy sites in Iraq.
The iraqi shiŽites are under control of the iranian great-ayatollah Sistani and the iranian influence in this region is now greater than ever in the last 100 years. And all without wasting the life of a single iranian soldier.
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Hi Thrawn,
Originally posted by Thrawn
And that has changed? Isn't Al-Quaeda made up of Shia?
No, AQ is a Wahhabi Sunni organization and one of many Sunni terror groups that are affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood and embrace the philosophy of Hasan Al-Bana.
Wahhabism is the most "pure" form of Sunni Islam, and is growing quickly due to the fact that it is officially supported and exported by the Saudi Government. They are spending literally billions of their petrochemicals to found Wahabi mosques, train Wahabi Imams, and diseminate Wahabi literature. The Taliban, for instance, are a Wahabi organization, hence their close ties with Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden.
The Shia are only a majority in Iran and Iraq, in most middle-eastern Shia countries they are viewed as schismatics and are actively persecuted. They have their own terrorist organizations like Hezbollah.
I haven't read any of the Wikki articles on them, but I imagine a Wiki search on topics like Hezbollah, Wahhabism, Taliban, and Muslim Brotherhood should give you a basic background in the differences and origins.
Well I'm off to bed, extraordinarily pooped.
- SEAGOON
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wow. that cartoon was great! i loved it! well written diolouge. good character development, exelent symbolism. a tour de force.:aok
the only place this movie dissapoints in is that there is no "death to america" reference:cry very dissapointin. but i still give it a very enthusistic 3 out of 5.
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Thanks for the info goon, I was just reading about the brotherhood earlier today Egypt: Muslim Brotherhood scoring high (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1132053866956)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
^^I find it hilarious (and scarey at the same time) at the lengths people will go to justify their obtuse views on fundamentalist muslim religions.:confused:
LMAO! And you of all pple is the expert in that matter, yeah?
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Originally posted by Saintaw
LMAO! And you of all pple is the expert in that matter, yeah?
Yes, I am an expert in my opinion.:huh
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Im sure that the leaders are so concerned with the youth who do this. And seeing that pic Rip posted with the little fella with the canisters around his tiny body is heartbreaking. He should be bouncing on someones knee, not involved with all that crap.
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I work with an Iranian I'll ask him to veiw it check the translation.
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deep thoughts..................
I wonder does a gay arab man have a lisp.. like a majority of the gay american males?
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He probably doesnt have a tongue.
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"Sometimes its difficult to know where to begin in responding to posts that view every worldview as equally valid and coherent"
Seagoon--
If you ever need to shoot down that particular viewpoint, bring up the Aztec religion. It always works. No sane person can actually support that disgusting, bloodthirsty religion.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Sometimes its difficult to know where to begin in responding to posts that view every worldview as equally valid and coherent"
Seagoon--
If you ever need to shoot down that particular viewpoint, bring up the Aztec religion. It always works. No sane person can actually support that disgusting, bloodthirsty religion.
J_A_B
Oh come on, cutting out a heart while it is still beating is hardly that bad! The IRA blows people up man! Abortion clinics too!!! DAMN those prolife IRA clowns!
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Originally posted by Saintaw
And I wonder how many are outraged at "South Park" dialogs too.
dammm in our serials we have girls behading guys.... some 6 months ago we had briliant one.
little Katrine beheaded some 11 guys within one episode.
:D
pitty that original link is some POS for windows only. any link on DivX version around ???
it might be fun to see some "proper" guid how to blow yourself... specialy for children
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Originally posted by boxboy28
deep thoughts..................
I wonder does a gay arab man have a lisp.. like a majority of the gay american males?
Tunisian and Persian do.
well.... i dont know why.. but they simply love me when they see me.
pitty that we have diferent orientation.
:cry
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Thrawn,
No, AQ is a Wahhabi Sunni organization and one of many Sunni terror groups that are affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood and embrace the philosophy of Hasan Al-Bana.
Wahhabism is the most "pure" form of Sunni Islam, and is growing quickly due to the fact that it is officially supported and exported by the Saudi Government. They are spending literally billions of their petrochemicals to found Wahabi mosques, train Wahabi Imams, and diseminate Wahabi literature. The Taliban, for instance, are a Wahabi organization, hence their close ties with Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden.
- SEAGOON
allah akbar... then you finaly discovered wheres is the devil.
That make sense... lets bomb Syria, Iran and all other "non pro US" countries around the world..... and SA will be fixed...:lol