Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: blur on August 10, 2000, 07:39:00 AM
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"The U.S. Supreme Court voted 7-2 Wednesday
morning to allow the execution of Roberson. The justices also voted 6-3 to deny Cruz's request for a reprieve and to deny a separate appeal."
-CNN
Since we've been on the topic of citizens' rights recently. I was wondering if anyone finds the above statement disturbing. Should we as citizens give the government the power of life or death over us?
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Of course not.
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Since we've been on the topic of citizens' rights recently. I was wondering if anyone finds the above statement disturbing. Should we as citizens give the government the power of life or death over us?
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"We the People"
Think real hard about this one.............
Yeager
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Hm, at the risk of sounding like a beelding heart pinko, I must say that I find the death penalty a cruel and obsolete way of punishment. But some will argue that it's the only way of securing that say a mass muderer does not kill again.
The death penalty in this sense is the perfect...what's the word, not punishment, because you ain't feeling nothing when you're dead....the perfect solution? And as such, it requires a perfect judicial system. And I do not believe such a one exists anywhere in the world; different religions believe that ultimately, there is one.
So if this is taken into account, we really cannot allow ourselves the risk of killing an innocent.
I believe the dictionary defines murder as "unlawful killing". In the case of the execution of an innocent, it falls in my book into that category. So what should we do? Execute the jury, for convicting the man/woman? Nah, that has to do with guilt, not punishment. Execute the judge for sentecing the person to death? Nah, his duty is do administer punishment according to the law *on people found guilty by the jury*, as I understand it.
So also here there's a little flaw (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Another question is resocialization vs punishment - and here a cynic would say - what serves society best? In some cases the former, in others the latter. Some people (and some democrats will probably not agree) *cannot* be resocialized - they are too far out. My father works as a shrink, and that's his professional opinion. He's explained the reasoning behind it and (maybe because my lack of knowledge in the area) I've found it to be rather compelling.
So, in these cases, we're left with two further options; punishment, an eye for an eye in a certain sense, or removal from society so as to present no further threat. The death penalty, to me, is not really more than a very short term punishment. Lots of fear in a very short time, but then that's that. Incarceration with guys like Bubba who have sayings like "tight butts drive me nutts" would be more severe; here, the criminal (or innocent) would have the time to get punished, and would know about it..
But I am a firm believer in the principle that a society should not stoop to the lowest common denominator of human behaviour. Punishment is, in a way, an emotional reaction. Mr Spock would settle for having the problem solved. Unfortunately, for these hard cases, the ony way to have the problem solved is by removing them from society, either by putting them to death, or by putting them in jail. I vote for the latter.
Now, some penalties in the US I find a bit extreme. Like when a man is sentenced to 245 years in prison. Why stop there - it's the rest of the individual's natural life, so why not just say so. Or raise it to 245 million year, for good measure.
On the other hand, I find the punishments in this country far too weak. A gang of refugees had a gang rape on a young 15 year old Danish woman, and the hardest punishment was I believe three years in jail. Aggravated assault, well, out in a few. Murder, see ya in 8 to 12.
But side issues (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Man, another can of worms.
This is another problem that goes deep into the fabric of the society we have allowed ourselves to become.
In this country, guys who kite a check are in the same cell as a guy who killed somebody in an argument over an ounce of weed. It's probably even odds on who will get out first, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One thing you can say is that the death penalty cuts recidivism to zero. They never commit another crime. OTOH, you can also say that if Society makes a mistake <which is certainly possible> you can never, ever correct it.
Clearly, we need to review what we are attempting to do with the present criminal justice system. Capital punishment may <and IMHO, does> have its place. (There are captial crimes in which the defendant is clearly guilty. For example, suppose Hinckley had succeeded in killing Reagan, <hold the witty commentary a second (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) >. The Secret Service had him caught with the smoking gun in hand. There would be NO DOUBT. Here I have no problem with Capital Punishment.)
Mainly, we MUST begin to deal with the underlying problems. The English, at one time, would HANG you for stealing a loaf of bread. Bread still got stolen; a starving man has no choice.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by blur:
Should we as citizens give the government the power of life or death over us?
You already do that by voting. You give them the power of the military, in which they hold all the buttons of the nuclear arsenal, and, as in the the case of Los Alomos, the power to place those secret weapons in the hands of a country that could determine our future in short time.
If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call.
THIS POST is in memory of 10 year Cary Ann Medlin, who said:
"Jesus loves you,
Jesus loves you."
over and over to her rapist just before he murdered her.
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/CarySmiling.JPG)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-10-2000).]
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Blur,
First of all, I totally respect your opinion and think it is valid.
Laws concerning the Death Penalty can be over turned by our elected officials. If the majority of a state's voters do not condone the death penalty, they have the power to vote otherwise. The U.S. Supreme Court, though not elected officials, do uphold the law of the land. Whether it is politically correct at the time or not. I do believe there are crimes that are so brutal and heinous that they should be punishable by death. My opinion.
<S>
Ash
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Let me say this:
There are human beings who need to be killed.
Not locked up, not reformed, simply put down.
Everything after that gets kind of messy.
Yeager
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</H
Originally posted by Yeager:
<snip>
"We the People"
Think real hard about this one.............
Yeager
Actually I think it's becoming more like "We the Corporation" but okay, let me rephrase, should "We the People" have the power of life and death over its citizens?
To me murder is a basic violation of life itself, which goes beyond any of man's petty laws, and to murder the murderer is to commit two crimes.
A government that institutes capital punishment is only sending the message that life is cheap.
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Quote:
"A government that institutes capital punishment is only sending the message that life is cheap."
Well, the executed murderer's life sure is cheap.
Listen. The Government of the United States is the People. "Corporations" are people too. If the People lose control of their destiny, it's because they don't exercise their Right To Vote. It's each US citizen's responsibility to vote. No excuse.
The Government, acting on the People's wish, can execute murderers. The US Courts have numerous checks-and-balances and appeals designed to keep innocent people from being put to death. I would be willing to bet that the ratio of innocent victims murdered by worthless human garbage to the number of executions of innocent convicts would run in the tens-of-thousands to one.
I reserve the right to kill any person who threatens my life, my wife's life, my children's life, and my neighbor's life. I also reserve the right to kill any invader that would attempt to destroy my Country and my Freedom as part of a military action. I call it "Real-Time Capital Punishment".
Anyone who would not defend their own , their family's, or their Nation's life/lives is a worthless coward/and or a weakling not worthy to be called a Man.
It's "Thou Shalt Not Murder" not "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Killing is real, it will always be a part of life. Deal with it.
Cabby
Marion Carl. WWII Marine Fighter Ace and decent, law-abiding citizen. Murdered in his home by a piece of human excrement that still lives today. Why??
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Gotta agree with blur here.
There have been, and will be, cases where a man or woman has been proven not guilty after having been executed. This risk, combined with blur's comments about man's petty laws, alone are enough for me not to want to have the death penalty when there are alternative options.
As far as I can tell, a lot of people are still being murdered in the US; many more than here. The deterrant effect of death penalty is questionable to me, especially as criminals comitting crimes that can result in death penalty overall do not think long term.
A side effect; I murder a man. Having done this, I know that when I am caught, I shall be put to death. This gives me an incentive to do whatever I have to do to stay alive. Furthermore, since I am already practically dead if caught, some more crimes sure cannot hurt me. So, at least in some cases, it has the opposite effect.
It's not really much of a punishment. You die. Big deal; you were going to anyhow. With the exception of the electric chair, it will even be without any considerable pain. And you get to know the time and method.
Now, incarceration for life. Eeek. To me, it sounds worse. I am not sure I would be able to cope with it without suffering a nervous breakdown; personally, I need a lot of "alone" time, where I am alone and can do whatever I wish at whatever point in time.
If "removal from society" is the goal, there are two options; death and incarceration. The former is very definite and cannot be undone. The latter has a very small chance of the inmate escaping, and can be reversed.
While I prefer the latter, there are still worrysome issues; what if an inmate escapes, and kills again?
The solution is to make the chances of this as small as possible by investing the necessary amount of money. Still not fool proof, but it is my belief the chances can be reduced below the chances of an innocent man being executed.
And, I must say, I feel that the electric chair is a horrible way of executing people. Cooking their blood with high voltage? Eek.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Hi all,
You were one of the last countries in the world which abandoned slavary. I hope you would not stay in the history as the last country which banned executions. Country which position itself in the current world as the "keeper of democrasy and humanity" should be a bit more mature in such vitualy important issues.
All the above is IMO.
Fariz
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Quote:
"You were one of the last countries in the world which abandoned slavary."
I assume you are referring to the USA. If you are, you are full of Bulls***. Slavery still exists in the world today. The USA has made more people FREE in more PLACES than any other country that has ever existed. Dunno where you live, but it's more than likely you would be somebody's slave right now if it weren't for the USA. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died ending Slavery in our own country, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who died(and the trillions of $ spent) ending/preventing Slavery the world over. Comments like yours are enough to make US Isolationism sound sensible.
Quote:
" The deterrant effect of death penalty is questionable to me..."
It deters the hell outta the criminal who gets executed. He never commits another crime. Ever.
Cabby
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Only a little comment here...
there is a Spanish guy that just avoided being executed in Florida State AFTER his father expended all his money and pertenences paying lawyers to demonstrate that his son was innocent of a double murder in 1995. The trial was a joke, most proofs were porked and/or contaminated...you get the idea.
Had this father not be able to pay lawyers to save his son's lifes he would be going to death for a crime he never commited.
There is a re-trial on this subject pending. In the meantime the guy (dont remember his name) has been translated to Tampa Bay prison and will surely be awarded conditional freedom next week or so.
Now think about a family ruined because US "great" laws. I hope that when the retrial goes ahead and the guy wins his freedom (he will), he starts a demans with the US Florida State ,and he bleeds some millions dollars from US government. Money that all the people who supports death penalty is paying as tax payers...but people who doesnt support it,is too paying for it.
Death penalty belongs to other era. You can send the worse scum in this world to a mining factory to do the worse work for the rest of his sorry life, but you CANT kill him.
Not to mention the cases like the one I just described. People innocent killed after joke trials, never given a true chance to demonstrate they are innocent.
The father of this guy had to pay more than 100 million pesetas (some 800.000$) to the lawyers only to Demonstrate that the trial was a Joke. The guy has lived for 4 years with a death sentence pending over his neck, when he had done nothing.
If this father wouldnt be able to afford it (of course there was money given by people on an open account on a bank here in spain so some of the money is given by people) then his son would be dying in 6 months.
I hate death penalty for many reason but this is one of the better examples of why.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-10-2000).]
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It deters the hell outta the criminal who gets executed. He never commits another crime. Ever.
Hm, I see your point, but this is a strawman.
Detterance, according to an online dictionary I use, is:
deter
v 1: try to prevent; show opposition to: "We should discourage this practice among our youth" [syn: discourage]
I.e something done to prevent a murder.
Did it prevent the murderer in the first place?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Genlemen,
Many good points here! Who decided capitol punishment is supposed to be a deterent to murder? The key word here is "punishment". Our legal system try's to fit the punishment to the crime, right or wrong. You can never deter criminals by threats of punishment. I find it hard to believe any person considering or participating in a crimal act, thinks they will be caught. And then considers the penal codes and punishments before doing the crime.
These laws are imposed by the will of the people, and in this country you have the right to try and change ANY law that you disagree with. Get out and Vote!
StSanta; the majority of executions are done by injection now. Very few if any, use gas or the electric chair.
Our laws are what keep us great. And our ability to change them, make us even greater.
OTR,
Ash
< whew gets off the soap box...:-)>
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Gotta agree with blur here.
There have been, and will be, cases where a man or woman has been proven not guilty after having been executed.
Show me one case in the last 50 years where this is true..(Clue, there isn't one!)
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An inmate on death row was scheduled to be put to death by firing squad the following morning.
One of the prison guards asked the inmate if he wanted something special for his last meal. The
inmate declined the offer. Later, the prison guard asked the inmate if there was something special
he wanted to do on his final day. Again, the inmate declined the offer. The following morning, as he
inmate was being put before the firing squad, the guard asked him if he wanted a cigarette and a
blindfold. "No," the inmate said, "just get it over with."
"Well, is there anything that I can do for you before you go?" asked the guard. The inmate thought
for a moment, then replied, "Actually, music is my life. One thing I would really like would be to sing
my favourite song, from beginning to end, without any interruptions." The guard nodded and
agreed. "Go ahead," said the guard. The inmate started, "One billion bottles of beer on the wall..."
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Blur,
I agree with you. Murder is murder. Whether a rapist kills a 10 year old, or society kills a criminal. To decide if capital punishment is legal, or not, is up to the society in question. But, morally, there is absolutely no difference. Capital punishment is simply government-sanctioned murder. One can justify such a thing, based on a number of religious, political, or legal arguments, but taking a life that does not immediately threaten yours is murder.
My opinion, of course.
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Rip, i dont remember the name but in the last 6 months in Texas a man was executed, and the people and the judges and the governor themselves knew was'nt him the murder well before the execution, they executed him just because the procedure was respected.
This is just one example.
Another think, the photo and the story you put in your earlier post was hurting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif), but was emotional too, and if you want to discuss rational you have to avoid the emotions, talking with big numbers need to be cold and rational (and maybe cynic a little (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)).
StSanta, as Ash noticed, the big difference between the two legal systems (the US and the European one), is the aim they have, the correction and the punishment, in the case of death sentence you have the full application of a punishment, someway near to revenge, in fact the victim's parents (is this the word?) are allowed to enjoy the show (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif).
In other cases the punishment is less... definitive and (i heard this, dunno if true) the US "correctional" system try to recover the subject to a social beeing, before the end of punishment.
On the other side, the Euro concept aim to isolate the subject from society and try to recover him in long terms, based to the concept that NOBODY, even the state, have the right to kill.
But we all have to understand there are two problems here we have to not undervaluate (it's even english this? sorry guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)).
First, the justice is administrated by mens, by definition fallable, and, worst, they usually dont know how exactly the facts where, so they have to guess (or bet).
Second, both systems act AFTER the crime has done, and none of the two society try to prevent and avoid more crimes, to deter is not a solution, education is the best solution.
As RAM pointed, one of the big problems of the US justice system is the weight the money have, if you are rich you have good hope to be found inocent, if you are poor you are almost sure to be found guilty, and this is somethink you know.
Finally, Cabby, your attitude in the last post,
I assume you are referring to the USA. If you are, you are full of Bulls***. Slavery still exists in the world today. The USA has made more people FREE in more PLACES than any other country that has ever existed. Dunno where you live, but it's more than likely you would be somebody's slave right now if it weren't for the USA. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died ending Slavery in our own country, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who died(and the trillions of $ spent) ending/preventing Slavery the world over. Comments like yours are enough to make US Isolationism sound sensible.
is more indicated in another thread: "the ugly american", where you can represent yourself as a good example of the subject. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
p.s.
After "the ugly..." and the Handgun threads i was asking myself when the death penalty argument arise to our attention. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now we can stop with the UScentric arguments and hopefully start to open our minds to different worlds and cultures. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cosmic peace, brothers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lol Ripsnort, i've just readed the joke, very funny.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Okay, now I see the light. I vote for a congressman. This is easy because,
since there's only two parties, there's not a lot of choice to begin with.
My man's elected! He goes to Washington and as soon as he puts his feet up
on his desk he's approached by a representative of the electric chair
industry. At first he eschews the man but after a two-week trip to Tahiti, a
set of steak knives and 50,000 shares of stock in the up and coming
Trashzapper Corporation his viewpoint on capitol punishment does a 180.
So now, not only is he voting for capitol punishment he also extols the
virtues of the new Trashzapper Model 2000 to his colleagues. Explaining
nuances like the non-skid surfaces, vomit bag attachments and optional solar
powered battery pack.
With the government contract my congressman gets filthy rich.
One year later I see him in a local grocery store. Being a proper
God-fearin' Second Amendment supportin' Ammurrican I pull a 45-magnum
handgun on him and blow him into the frozen food section.
I'm arrested and being poor white trash I can't mount a proper legal
defense. So now I sit on death row for fifteen years playing swap the salami
and praying for a cloudy day when they roll out the Trashzapper Model 2000
with the optional solar powered battery pack.
Thanks for clearing this up fellas.
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Originally posted by Naso:
Rip, i dont remember the name but in the last 6 months in Texas a man was executed, and the people and the judges and the governor themselves knew was'nt him the murder well before the execution, they executed him just because the procedure was respected.
This is just one example.
Give me facts and data. I garantee you there is not one case in the last 50 years that didn't have substantial evidence against the defendant. Other than his plee that "I didn't do it" doesn't cut the mustard when they have their own blood on the weapon.
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Originally posted by blur:
Okay, now I see the light. I vote for a congressman. This is easy because,
since there's only two parties, there's not a lot of choice to begin with.
My man's elected! He goes to Washington and as soon as he puts his feet up
on his desk he's approached by a representative of the electric chair
industry. At first he eschews the man but after a two-week trip to Tahiti, a
set of steak knives and 50,000 shares of stock in the up and coming
Trashzapper Corporation his viewpoint on capitol punishment does a 180.
So now, not only is he voting for capitol punishment he also extols the
virtues of the new Trashzapper Model 2000 to his colleagues. Explaining
nuances like the non-skid surfaces, vomit bag attachments and optional solar
powered battery pack.
With the government contract my congressman gets filthy rich.
One year later I see him in a local grocery store. Being a proper
God-fearin' Second Amendment supportin' Ammurrican I pull a 45-magnum
handgun on him and blow him into the frozen food section.
I'm arrested and being poor white trash I can't mount a proper legal
defense. So now I sit on death row for fifteen years playing swap the salami
and praying for a cloudy day when they roll out the Trashzapper Model 2000
with the optional solar powered battery pack.
Thanks for clearing this up fellas.
What other option did you have in mind for politics? How about China! How about Marxism!
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His views are the same as mine:
A review of Capital
Punishment
Is the death penalty a deterrent against crime?
by Nicholas Fabian
Capital punishment is the administration of death penalty by
the state to an individual who committed a crime which,
based on its laws, mandates the death penalty. It is capital,
because the offence is extremely serious, and it is
punishment because it is given in response to some heinous
crime committed by the perpetrator.
The objective of capital punishment.
The objective of capital punishment is to punish individuals
who committed murder or other heinous crimes against
innocent people. Opponents of the death penalty claim that
"Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime." There are
absolutely no legal requirements mandating that an
execution has to function as a deterrent to crime. The
argument, that "it is not a deterrent to crime", is only a red
herring, a feeble attempt to confuse the issue. The only
principal question is: Does it accomplish the mandated
punishment? And the answer to that question is an
unconditional, yes. If, in fact, capital punishment also helps
to prevent some crime in the future, that is only an added
benefit gained from the capital punishment process. Each
execution of a criminal is a positive proof of the state's
moral and legal authority to carry out the punishment; and a
validation that the process works. The conviction in itself
may not deter the criminal, but the execution always does.
Although neither mandated by law nor required on moral
grounds, capital punishment is a 100% effective deterrent
against crimes of the criminal who's death-sentence is
being carried out. In all of human history, not one single
executed murderer ever committed another crime.
Crime deterrent certainty.
With unfailing regularity, the opponents of capital
punishment will quote recent statistical data which indicates
that there is no decline in the murder rate after the
introduction of capital punishment. Misleading assertions
based on the fraudulent statistical data are the everyday
tools of social saboteurs. So, let's isolate the problem.
Assume, that there are two people living on an island.
Number One murders Number Two, and for that crime,
Number One, the murderer, is executed. The application of
capital punishment guarantees, with 100% certainty, that all
crime on the island will be deterred. As the population of
the island increases, the certainty factor of deterred crime,
decreases. With a population of 1,000 the certainty value is
one in 1,000, and with ten million, it is one in ten million. In
this case, eliminating one member of a large sample is not,
and can not be, statistically significant. For the general
population, the deterrent difference between 1/10,000,000
and 1/10,000,000 minus one, is meaningless.
Introducing fraudulent statistical comparisons.
Applying statical analysis comparisons of one specific
murder to the rate of a city or to an entire country and
expecting to see significant changes in overall rates, is not
rational. Eliminating ONE additional murder from a yearly
total of twenty thousand murders in a country will only
change the rate by 1/20,000s. Those are the facts.
Eliminating that same single murderer from the crime
statistic of the household, street, or neighborhood where
the murder occurred, will dramatically reduce the crime
rate for those effected areas.
Another problem with the collected data is that, even in
countries where capital punishment is available, such as the
United States, capital punishment sentences are seldom
carried out. With the various legal maneuvers available to
death-row inmates, the average delay of an execution is well
over ten years. In 98% of the cases, death sentences given
for murder and rape will never be carried out. Therefore, it
is not surprising that the minute value it represents in the
total murder rate, is not readily highlighted by intentionally
misleading statistical methods. The "justice system", if one
can call it that, has been so terribly subverted by legal
saboteurs that it is almost totally paralysed by its own
asinine, absurd, and contradictory laws. The well know,
"revolving-door" justice, is a classical example of judicial
mis-management and criminal stupidity. If all murderers and
rapists were executed tomorrow, it most certainly would
sent a strong message to all other potential social deviates.
As long as the legal system is permitted to be manipulated
by legal saboteurs, vocal minority gangs, and left-wing
"social engineers" — the future of real justice and the
possibility of equal protection for the victims' rights is,
rather bleak. "Justice is the punishment of the guilty and
the acquittal and fair compensation of the innocent, every
time. That is justice."
Punishment yes, vengeance no.
Opponents of the death penalty also claim that capital
punishment is immoral because it is, in their view, nothing
but vengeance. The assertion is a categorical lie; any
attempt to blame the victim is a despicable act of social
barbarism. Capital punishment is not vengeance, but a
consequence of a heinous crime committed by the criminal.
Consequence, yes, vengeance no. The execution of the
criminal for his crimes could be called vengeance, if the
courts permitted the victim's relatives and friends to carry
out the death sentence using instruments of torture,
identical or similar to the ones which were favoured by
Jesuit priests during the Inquisition. Now, that would be
vengeance. In fact, current methods of execution are very
humane.
Who initiated the force.
The execution of murderers, rapists, and other criminals
who committed capital offences is the result of their own
action which was initiated by them, against innocent
people. People who initiate physical force against other
individuals are criminals, people who respond to that force
with force, are not. They are acting in self defence, and self
defence is always justified under natural law. It is absolutely
critical to be able to distinguish between the acts of the two
different individuals; one is a murderer, the other one is an
innocent victim; or a legally constituted organization of the
state, acting on behalf of the victim. People who can not
perceive the difference, are either unable to reason or
morally bankrupt. If in doubt who the criminal is, just ask
the question: "Who initiated the force?"
Methods of execution.
The Justice System's approach to implement capital
punishment was, and still is, utterly absurd. The
introduction and use of hanging, electric chair, gas
chamber, guillotine, and fatal injection, certainly provides
ample proof of an eclectic assortment of equipment,
mechanical inaptitude, and judicial stupidity. What would a
reasonable person do to learn about efficient ways to
destroy human life? Well, examining the history of warfare
might be a good start. What is the most efficient and
reliable selective killing tool devised by men, up to the
present day? Firearms, of course! Guns were proven to be
successful by the documented destruction of millions of
lives in many wars, therefore, the logical choice of
execution should be a bullet to the back of the head. The
method is simple, reliable, fast, practical, and humane. It is
absolutely certain that opponents to the death penalty
would, vehemently, object to it. Not because of the
certainty or quickness of death, but because the
propaganda value of an efficient and humane execution is
significantly less than an unpredictable theatrical execution
of a murderer by electric chair.
Anyone who objects to capital punishment should create a
Will & Last Testament and deposit it at their lawyer's
office. The Will should specify that in case they are
murdered, raped, or tortured—their murderer, rapist, or
torturer—should not be executed. Members of the Jury
considering the case should be given access to the written
wishes of the (dismembered) deceased. On the other hand,
people who want to impose their belief system on others
are social terrorists; and they should be treated as such.
Conclusions:
1.Capital punishment is a punitive action imposed by
the state on individuals for committing capital crimes.
2.Although neither mandated by law nor required on
moral grounds, capital punishment is a 100%
effective deterrent against the crimes of the criminal
who's death-sentence is being carried out.
3.Capital punishment is not vengeance, but a
consequence of a heinous crime committed by the
criminal. The execution of the criminal for his crimes
could be called vengeance, if the courts permitted the
victim's relatives and friends to carry out the death
sentence using instruments of torture, identical or
similar to the ones which were favoured by Jesuit
priests during the Inquisition. Now, that would be
vengeance. In contrast to the atrocities of the crimes,
current methods of execution are extremely humane.
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Naso, you are thinking of Gary Graham, who had previously been in jail for rape, armed robbery, and countless other crimes, all by the age of 22. The only eye witness heard in the murder/armed robbery case was the only eye witness who said it was him who did it. 6 others said it was not him. And that alone started the debate. But what all the protester don't tell you, is that This eye witness is the only one who got a close and clear view of the suspect. Gary Graham was guily as charged. And a lot of bleeding heart americans wasted alot of time and money defending this career criminal......
I'm sorry, but I have very strong views in favor of the death penalty. I actually knew one of the last guys executed in Texas. Jessy San Miguel. He sat next to me in English class. I use to skateboard with him when I was younger. One night me and some friends where coming home late, and wanted some food, Taco Bell was voted out. Little did we know, that choice saved our lives. Because at that time, Jessy and his friend was in the process of robbing the Taco Bell we were going to go to. He then took all the employees in to the walk-in freezer, and shot them in the back of the head, one girl was pregnant, he shot her in the stomach. he kept shooting till the gun was empty. The first police officer on the sceen, fainted at the horriffic site. they had to squeegee out the blood to find all the shell casings. I get sick every time I think about it.......
It's ironic, the anti death penalty activists didn't really say much when Jessy got executed.... It seems like they actually agreed with this one. Makes ya wonder, doesn't it.
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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "
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Now, I'm not trying to lob a grenade into the crowd but sometimes I get to thinking and that's always dangerous.
I see there is a large difference in opinion on Captial Punishment between the Europeans and the Americans.
There's probably no denying that everyday USA is a more violent place than everyday Europe. We could argue the reasons till the cows come home and not agree.
There is also absolutely denying that if you want to kill on grand scale, Europe's the place. "World Wars Are Us!"
Internally, the US has only had one major and really bloody conflict, the Civil War. After that we went back to knocking each other off one by one on a random basis. And kill your neighbors over religion? Not here.
Fighting our next-door international neighbors? Well, a little bit, but no major wars on the scale anywhere close to what happened in Europe. Now, it would be unthinkable, beyond comprehension to invade Canada or Mexico.
So, I wonder to myself...are the US citizens the famous "type A" personalities? We get mad, act quickly on an individual basis and then just as quickly have remorse/seek forgiveness?
And are the Europeans the type that save up all that anger and then really cut loose every 40 years or so, quickly catching and surpassing any paltry US attempt to alter the world's population?
Like I said, thinking is dangerous. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Sometimes I wonder about me.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-11-2000).]
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Capital Punishment as a deterrence... it aint working. So why is it still up? The only thing it has accomplished is the killing of 30 something innocents.
If it ain't broke, dont fix it. If it aint working, replace it.
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A rebuke of A review of Capital punishment...
Capital punishment is the administration of death penalty by the state to an individual who committed a crime which, based on its laws, mandates the death penalty. It is capital, because the offence is extremely serious, and it is punishment because it is given in response to some heinous crime committed by the perpetrator.
This part is not up to debate or what we're debating, so will leave it alone.
The objective of capital punishment.
The objective of capital punishment is to punish individuals who committed murder or other heinous crimes against innocent people.
Again, I'd like to question just how punishing being put to death humanely really is. A few seconds, and gone are any chances of actually punishing the criminal; death is, at least to the physical body, the final destination. Without the biological faculties to facilitate thinking, it is impossible to punish someone or something; the brief minutes where the punishment is actively working is, ironically enough, when the person is alive and aware of the death sentence hanging over his or her head.
It is also interesting to note that the author has defined the death penalty as a *punishment* - taking the an eye for an eye approach in a sense. Nowhere does he mention that the primary mission is for society to remove unwanted elements in order to secure that no further harm can be done by them. This assertion made by the author alone is highly debatable and enough to shoot big enough holes in his argument for it to be too weak for a "perfect" way such as the death penalty.
Opponents of the death penalty claim that "Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime." There are absolutely no legal requirements mandating that an execution has to function as a deterrent to crime.
At which point the author forgets that it is the pro death penalty people who bring up the detterent argument, only to be countered by the anti death penalty folks.
The argument, that "it is not a deterrent to crime", is only a red herring, a feeble attempt to confuse the issue. The only principal question is: Does it accomplish the mandated punishment? And the answer to that question is an unconditional, yes.
Well, circular argument, a logical fallacy. What this argument is about is the death penalty. The author is using the premise to prove his conclusion, and the other way around. In essence, he is saying "it's in the law that people shhould be put to death when convicted of certain crimes. And people are put to death. Therefore, the law is fair.
Of course it it does. Just like when I am sentenced to pay a fee for a crime where the punishment is a fee does. The author is himself using a red herring.
If, in fact, capital punishment also helps to prevent some crime in the future, that is only an added benefit gained from the capital punishment process. Each execution of a criminal is a positive proof of the state's
d legal authority to carry out the punishment; and a validation that the process works.
Crime deterrent certainty.
Arguing just like before, the author commits another logical fallacy; begging the question. Essentially, this fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the conclusion reached. What we are *debating* here is the very legal authority to carry out the death penalty.
The conviction in itself may not deter the criminal, but the execution always does.
[/quote}
Red herring even according to the author himself, but let us pursue it. Did it deter the criminal from the crime? No; if it did, there wouldn't have been a crime in the first place. Does it prevent the criminal from commiting another crime? It does, but the US legal system has, at large as far as I know, not the power to punish you for something you have not done. In the case of preparation to commit say bank robbery, that is what you're being punished for; not the robbery itself.
Once again, I must disagree with the author, based on his flawed logic on some issues and inaccurate use of the word detterent.
Although neither mandated by law nor required on moral grounds, capital punishment is a 100% effective deterrent against crimes of the criminal who's death-sentence is being carried out. In all of human history, not one single executed murderer ever committed another crime.
Well, this rounds out to 0/0; which according to my Java book is NaN, not a number. Fallacious use of mathematics. Allow me to explain yourself; once you're dead and deceased, and your body has begun to rot, decay or has been burned, you are no more. To satisfy those of you who believe in an afterlife, I should add "in this world". So, 0 crimes being committed by 0 people would give us a percentage of either infinity or NaN. Infinitely many people committed infinitely many crimes, or, on the other side, no person committed any crime. Which is indisputable, since there was no person around to commit one. Alas, I must disagree with the author once again.
With unfailing regularity, the opponents of capital punishment will quote recent statistical data which indicates that there is no decline in the murder rate after the
introduction of capital punishment. Misleading assertions based on the fraudulent statistical data are the everyday tools of social saboteurs. So, let's isolate the problem.
The author concludes that this is a red herring; i.e irrelevant information brought into a debate to obfuscate it, he certainly spends a lot of time and energy on it. Red herrings are to be shown as such, and dismissed. The author has failed to do either.
Assume, that there are two people living on an island. Number One murders Number Two, and for that crime, Number One, the murderer, is executed. The application of capital punishment guarantees, with 100% certainty, that all crime on the island will be deterred. As the population of the island increases, the certainty factor of deterred crime, decreases. With a population of 1,000 the certainty value is one in 1,000, and with ten million, it is one in ten million. In
this case, eliminating one member of a large sample is not, and can not be, statistically significant. For the general population, the deterrent difference between 1/10,000,000 and 1/10,000,000 minus one, is meaningless.
Total agreement about the statistics bit; what the author forgets is that with an increase in crime, follows (and, as the author, I assume a "perfect" world for this example) a proportional number of convictions and carrying out of penalties. Our world ain't no two man island, and murder per person statistics are easy to find, in places having the death penalty, and in places not having them. The authors claim that the statistics used by death penalty opponents are inaccurate and useless is unfounded.
Introducing fraudulent statistical comparisons.
Applying statical analysis comparisons of one specific murder to the rate of a city or to an entire country and expecting to see significant changes in overall rates, is not
rational. Eliminating ONE additional murder from a yearly total of twenty thousand murders in a country will only change the rate by 1/20,000s. Those are the facts.
Eliminating that same single murderer from the crime statistic of the household, street, or neighborhood where the murder occurred, will dramatically reduce the crime rate for those effected areas.
I agree completely with the author. However, this is not what is being discussed; elimination from that household, street or neighborhood can have many forms; "resocialization", incarceration, or death. We are debating which form is the overall better one. Furthermore, in his opening statement, the author argues that the primary objective of the death penalty is the penalty bit. In effect, he is himself creating the very same red herring he accuses the death penalty of using.
Another problem with the collected data is that, even in countries where capital punishment is available, such as the United States, capital punishment sentences are seldom carried out. With the various legal maneuvers available to death-row inmates, the average delay of an execution is well over ten years.
Aye, and such safe guards *must* be there to *ensure* that no innocents are executed. In other words, you'd need a reorganisation of the legal structure, and with it, increased funding by the magnitude to ensure the expedient carrying out of penalties. It could be argued that if this happens, crime rate will drop. This is, however, speculation and until we have some numbers it is for all purposes useless. And to reiterate, this is still a red herring. Is a country willing to spend additional funds in a social experiment? Don't know; in the case of the USA, we have to ask them and their leaders.
In 98% of the cases, death sentences given for murder and rape will never be carried out.
Would like to know the author's source for this number. Also would like to know if he means murder AND rape, or murder and rape; i.e murder separately and rape separately, or rape followed by a murder (or the other way around).
Therefore, it is not surprising that the minute value it represents in the total murder rate, is not readily highlighted by intentionally misleading statistical methods.
Here, the author is arguing that the current system which employs the death penalty doesn't work effectively as a detterent. He is also making use of another fallacy, argumentum ad hominem, or an attack on the person(s), not the argument. Really, there is little use for these in a serious debate.
The "justice system", if one can call it that, has been so terribly subverted by legal saboteurs that it is almost totally paralysed by its own asinine, absurd, and contradictory laws. The well know, "revolving-door" justice, is a classical example of judicial mis-management and criminal stupidity. If all murderers and rapists were executed tomorrow, it most certainly would sent a strong message to all other potential social deviates.
It would indeed. But, it is not feasible, since there are numerous safeguards inserted in order to ensure no innocent man or woman is executed. There is a saying "the wheels or justice roll slowly", and it is universal, and not only applicable to the US.
As long as the legal system is permitted to be manipulated by legal saboteurs, vocal minority gangs, and left-wing "social engineers" — the future of real justice and the possibility of equal protection for the victims' rights is, rather bleak.
A case of pot calling kettle black. Both sides have saboteurs, and all "manipulation" is not sabotage, but honest attempts at justice seen from either points perspective. The author appears to be right wing or centrist, since those two conveniently are left out of the list of saboteurs.
"Justice is the punishment of the guilty and the acquittal and fair compensation of the innocent, every time. That is justice."
Justice in its simplest form, aye. Justice as a medium to ensure peace and control in a society as a whole has more to it. Since it is a red herring I will not argue this further unless asked to.
Punishment yes, vengeance no.
That, I think, would differ depending on whether you are personally involved in a case.
Opponents of the death penalty also claim that capital punishment is immoral because it is, in their view, nothing but vengeance. The assertion is a categorical lie; any attempt to blame the victim is a despicable act of social barbarism. Capital punishment is not vengeance, but a consequence of a heinous crime committed by the criminal.
And yet another logical fallacy; converse accident/hasty generalization. It occurs when one forms a general rule based on very few examples. All opponents do not claim it is vengeance. Some opponents will agree on leaving vengeance totally out of the argument, as I will. And, while it is a lie to the author, it is not to others; this is to a large extent a question of opinion. Which I won't bother to discuss here, since they are just that.
Consequence, yes, vengeance no. The execution of the criminal for his crimes could be called vengeance, if the courts permitted the victim's relatives and friends to carry out the death sentence using instruments of torture, identical or similar to the ones which were favoured by Jesuit priests during the Inquisition. Now, that would be vengeance.
Vengeance is a great different things to a great different number of people. Same logical flaw as before; not everyone needs an eye for an eye for vengeance. Still, this argument is a red herring, according to the assertions stated by the author about the purpose of the death penalty.
In fact, current methods of execution are very humane.
Indeed, agreed, with at least one exception.
Who initiated the force.
The execution of murderers, rapists, and other criminals who committed capital offences is the result of their own action which was initiated by them, against innocent people.
This is not being disputed. What is being discussed is what punishment is appropriate.
People who initiate physical force against other individuals are criminals, people who respond to that force force, are not.
In general, yes. There are times when a preemptive strike is needed to ensure security, such as the case may be with burglars. And there are cases when a person might misunderstand anothers intent and see it as physical force, and react with the very same. And react first.
They are acting in self defence, and self defence is always justified under natural law.
It seems we are going through the book of logical fallacies from A to Z. This one is called The Natural Law fallacy / Appeal to Nature. For more info on this and other fallacies, see http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html)
It is not a complete list, but lists the more common ones.
It is absolutely critical to be able to distinguish between the acts of the two different individuals; one is a murderer, the other one is an innocent victim; or a legally constituted organization of the
state, acting on behalf of the victim.
Here, the author equals killing a criminal that has been neutralized (i.e is in custody, has been taken away from his potential victim and so forth) to self defense. To use an analogy to show the error in this line of argument, I provide this:
I've just been attacked by a murderous gun toting right wing fascist who supports the death penalty. Due to my extreme skills, I manage to subdue him, tie him up, knock him unconscious and place him inside a protective cage of the size of 1*1*1 meters. Now, I wait for the police to arrive, and then kill him, claiming self defense.
I hope this clarifies the matter.
People who can not perceive the difference, are either unable to reason or morally bankrupt. If in doubt who the criminal is, just ask the question: "Who initiated the force?"
Again, this is not what we are debating. Another red herring; soon we have enough to feed North Korea. We are debating how the individual is to be punished. Si my way of "self defense" appropriate, or is an alternative better?
Methods of execution.
The Justice System's approach to implement capital punishment was, and still is, utterly absurd. The introduction and use of hanging, electric chair, gas chamber, guillotine, and fatal injection, certainly provides ample proof of an eclectic assortment of equipment, mechanical inaptitude, and judicial stupidity.
Well, they all work, sort of. Three of the four are pretty effective, if not humane.
What would a reasonable person do to learn about efficient ways to destroy human life? Well, examining the history of warfare
might be a good start. What is the most efficient and reliable selective killing tool devised by men, up to the present day?
Standing at ground zero as a nuclear device goes off. No one has ever survived that.
Firearms, of course! Guns were proven to be
successful by the documented destruction of millions of lives in many wars, therefore, the logical choice of execution should be a bullet to the back of the head. The method is simple, reliable, fast, practical, and humane.
While tere are documented cases of people surviving a shot to the head, there aren't that many. But there are even fewer of people surviving the guillotine (one springs to mind, an aristocrat who was so fat that th bladew cut into his shoulder, and a man had to stand on the blade to drive it through).
Even so, the most effective way would be using a very large calbre weapon, such as both barrels of a shotgun. A bit messy and primitive, but since it is effectiveness we are discussing, it is pretty much the king.
It is absolutely certain that opponents to the death penalty would, vehemently, object to it. Not because of the certainty or quickness of death, but because the propaganda value of an efficient and humane execution is significantly less than an unpredictable theatrical execution of a murderer by electric chair.
Hm, the author's use of unpredictable is rather suspect; unpredictable would, to me, imply that a relatively large number of attempts fail. From what I've read, most executions run smoothly. The theatrical bit can also be debated since very few witness the actual executions, and the filmed ones I've seen on documentaries (lethal injection) consisted of strapping the man in, letting him say some final words, and then executing him. I've also been told that the elexctric chair is used only in a few places and few cases, but my source might be wrong.
It may vary, but is certainly not relevant to this discussion.
Anyone who objects to capital punishment should create a Will & Last Testament and deposit it at their lawyer's office. The Will should specify that in case they are murdered, raped, or tortured—their murderer, rapist, or torturer—should not be executed.
Won't give 'um any certainty for one. And it won't do much to stop the dp in all but the fewest cases, where you are personally involved. Bad solution.
Members of the Jury considering the case should be given access to the written
wishes of the (dismembered) deceased.
The "(dismembered)" comment brings us to another logical fallacy; appeal to emotion. And, as far as I know; the job of the jury is to determine guilt, not give punishment. For that, the US court system AFAIK rely on a judge. I might be wrong.
On the other hand, people who want to impose their belief system on others are social terrorists; and they should be treated as such.
Which is exactly what death penalty proponents are doing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
This latest comment deserves a whole page for itself; if I disagree with the belief system of the majority, are they terrorists? Or am I? Or are we given the right to hold different opinions? And do we not all have instances where our personal belief system is contradicted by the law?
But, red herring, to be sure. here Chinese children, have some; the North Koreans are full.
Conclusions:
1.Capital punishment is a punitive action imposed by the state on individuals for committing capital crimes.
Well, this comclusion was also the premise and an established fact not being disputed.
2.Although neither mandated by law nor required on moral grounds, capital punishment is a 100% effective deterrent against the crimes of the criminal who's death-sentence is being carried out.
See above for discussion about it.
3.Capital punishment is not vengeance, but a
consequence of a heinous crime committed by the criminal. The execution of the criminal for his crimes could be called vengeance, if the courts permitted the victim's relatives and friends to carry out the death sentence using instruments of torture, identical or
similar to the ones which were favoured by Jesuit priests during the Inquisition. Now, that would be vengeance.
This has also been dealt with above.
In contrast to the atrocities of the crimes,
current methods of execution are extremely humane.
And, according to the author in the case of the electric chair, unreliable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heh, that was my brain exercise for this day; this is how I try to keep it going and open. I could (and probably should) write a similar rebuke of the death penalty opponents arguments (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Ripsnort, I understand what you're saying through this man. It's just that the arguments *as he puts them*, aren't too compelling due to the large number of logical errors and inconsistencies. I am quite sure that others can put them more eloquently and without the logical errors, and that'd give me a much harder time.
Woohoo, length record; this has got to be one of the longest post on this board.
Eat THAT allied opportunist schweinhunde!
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Well, when some dirtbag rapes and kills a 10 year old girl here in Texas, I at least have the satisfaction of knowing that the scumbag will die.
You Europeans can feed and pamper dirtbags like that all you want.
It may not deter the murderer, but it gives me great satisfaction to know that scum like that is removed from the gene pool.
BTW I am opposed to lethal injections, I think we should hang them in the town square, and sell tickets.
Someday that slimeball that blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma will pay, and I will smile when I hear that.
You Europeans turn your IRA and other bombers back loose on the streets. Do you smile when you here that?
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-11-2000).]
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The problem that I have with the death penalty is not that it kills people, but rather that if you are poor or a member of a minority it is much more likely to be inflicted on you. The single biggest determining factor in whether the death penalty is asked for is the race of the victim. It should not be. If you are poor, you are far less likely to be offered a plea bargain.
In many states the public defender receives less than one days worth of investigation costs. The public defender may have no experience with criminal law, let alone capital law. In some cases the public defender has been known to sleep through most of the trial (George W. Bush said the defendant received a fair trial) or work on their normal cases.
For me to be comfortable with the process it would have to become much more egalitarian.
PS. On a side note, many pro-death penalty people talk about how we either put them to death or they are paroled in 15 years. If somebody can have the death penalty applied then the only other option is life in prison without the possiblity of parole (at least that is what we have in California). If somebody is sentenced to life in prison without the possiblity of parole they can NEVER be paroled. Life in prison is distinctly different than life in prison without the possiblity of parole.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Show me one case in the last 50 years where this is true..(Clue, there isn't one!)
As I said only 6 months and 100 million Pesetas won the life of an innocent that has lived 4 years with a death penalty on him.
If there is no money you cant proof your innocence, and so you'll never know if an executed guy was REALLY innocent or not.
I am quite sure there have been many executed people who were innocent in last 150 years...
that they could proof their innocence...that is another thing.
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hi all:
to start with i did not read all of these. this reply is for leonid.
you are right, if some low down piece of gutter slugde rapes and kills a 10 year old girl, the courts should not decide this poor slugs fate, he must have had a bad childhood and should be forgiven, and then let the 10 year old's father beat the piece of toejam to death with a lead pipe or baseball bat. then justice will have been served.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+:
You Europeans turn your IRA and other bombers back loose on the streets. Do you smile when you here that?
Okay, Mister, you earned a loooong post from me...so go and grab a cold beer and start reading...
I am Basque. I live in Basque country, Northern Spain. I feel myself as Basque. I feel mysef as Spanish.
But there is some people who doesnt feel spanish, and that is quite a number of people (maybe rounding 40-45%). Basque country has a long past independent...it is said that the basque people was here even before the arrival of the Celts and the Iberics...and that is a long long time.
I'll make this part of the story a short one...historically this feeling of independence, or authonomy, has leaded to a lot of problems for the people here. But more or less things went OK until XIX century, when succesion problems leaded to Carlist wars...the Basque people always was alligned with the wrong side (the aspirant to the throne Charles)...and so we payed the bill of the losers. We lost all authonomy. But still our culture, our language (Euzkera, a millenary language of still unknown procedence), our way of life was respected.
In XX century, 1931 in Spain was declared the II republic. In that time Catalonia and the Basque country (the 2 zones with more independentism within them) won a level of autodetermination never reached before...so when the Civil war started in 1936 with a spanish nationalist alliance of generals like Franco and Mola at the head of it, there was no doubt of the side both zones would allign with...Republican.
Republicans lost Civil War. And with it, Basque country and Catalonia lost their last remnants of authonomy. So here in Basque country (and in Catalonia too) our language was forbidden, our culture restricted, anything that resembled the Basque country as something different of Spain was banned...and was seriously dangerous to be owner of something that had any significance in that way.
Republican soldiers payed a high price...some went to concentration camps, some were to forced work (if you visit the "valle de los caidos" near Madrid you'll see a Pharaonic work...pharaonic on the side that it meant the blood of thousands of ex-republican soldiers to build that)...
And some had no way to find a decent work...my grandparent, by example. And if someone dared to raise the head and shout that it was a shame for everyone what was happenning there, the unlucky one who did it was shot, hit until death...or simply dissapeared...like my grandpa.
So much oppresion lead to some secret organizations here in Basque country...there were some of them but the most important one was called E.T.A. wich stands for Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna...literally Euskadi and Freedom (Euskadi is the name of our land in Euzkera).
At first it was only an idealistic formation,like many others...but then it started to do radical things...kidnapping was first (kidnapping is here a much lesser crime in US, BTW), then they started with some assasinations...
Until 1973. Franco was on his last breaths (he lasted until 1975, but he was a mummy)...he had made his succesor to the then Prince of Asturias, Juan Carlos, the current king of spain...but he had designed too the man who would make sure that the dictatorship way of government would go ahead...the Admirald Carrero Blanco.
ETA killed him (making Democracy a BIG Favour) in a very spectacular way. A bomb under the car that when blew up, make the 1800kg armoured car where he was go up to more than 25meters in vertical.
That made ETA the most famous independentist terrorist group in Spain (there were others ,but ETA was the most famous). in 1975, few days before the death of franco the last death penalties were made in Burgos. 5 members of ETA were killed.
After Franco, King Juan Carlos I with no Carrero Blanco behind him, started the transition to the democracy. Many parties were raised in this time, from the Communist Party to HB (Herri Batasuna----->people together) HB is what Jerry Adams' party is for the IRA, the politic branch of a terrorist group.
Still this terrorist group was doing quite restricted things, assasinations,and so. In Europe HB was seen as a "romantic" independence party...until 1987 and Hipercor.
In 1987 ETA put a bomb car in the parking of the Hipercor Market, in Catalonia. more than 30 people died there, women, kids and men. All parties condemned the action...
HB lamented it. Never condemned.
Then a race of terror started. Bombs on particular cars of people involved in projects that ETA didnt like...
bombs on the center of cities aimed to policemen, Military men...ever schools...
Coward attacks with guns firing to the head of people taking their breakfast, people whose only "crime" was to say that ETA was bad...or people who rejected to pay the "revolutionary tax", chantage to working people to pay 50% or more of their income to ETA so they could finance their actions...if they didnt pay they died...
you know wich are the grounds of ETA to do all this things?...
"the Spanish State oppreses Basque people...remember Burgos...remember Lasa and Zabala (two ETA members who were horrendously tortured before being assasinated by a police group)...remember..."
That was their grounds to make all this...people here in Basque country were all frightened by those assasins, here if you go on a street and say bad things about ETA you may be heard...and the next thing you find are 5 young ETA followers who are hitting you so bad that you go direct to the hospital...
if they dont kill you before...
if they dont throw a Molotov Coctel to you...
If they dont...
They even put a bomb car on the way of the then leader of the opposition in Spain, Jose Maria Aznar (our current president)...starting the next "offensive"
it started 3 years ago, when in San Sebastian they killed a PP member, Gregorio Ordoñez...for the reason that he was of a "spanish politic Party"...
but the worse was to come...
in summer 2 years ago , Miguel Angel Blanco, a PP member of Ermua council was kidnapped. An ultimatum followed saying that if in 48 hours the government (yet of PP) didnt make all of their points they would shot the guy...a 27 year old man who was part of the council of a little town...
The reaction was inmense. In Bilbao more than half a million people (in a city with an estimated 350.000 people on it and surroundings...the hole Basque country has one 1.200.000 people) lead by the President of the nation, and all the leaders of the important parties, went out to the street asking for the freedom and the life of an innocent man...thing that never happened in a frightened place as our land used to be...
In Madrid happened the same...
And so in Barcelona...
Valencia, Santander, Sevilla...all citiessaw literally millions of people on the street asking for his life.
After the 48 hours passed, they carried the guy to a forest and, immobilized ,they shot him twice on the head.
The rage here was inmense, and in my land changed all...now we arent frightened anymore...well at least not that much as we had before...for a while seemed that we all would stay together and make ETA stop...
Seemed it even more when past year they declared a unilateral temporal peace...but they used it not to start talks of peace...but to reorganize themselves...
From november until now this has been a nightmare...starting with politicians of PP and PSOE (both major parties in spain) ded by bombs on their cars or shot on the neck in the middle of the streets by coward people with masks to hidden their faces...
When the press said that ETA is a cancer they started shooting the periodists, too...so far 2 have died last months because they told the truth...
Last week when 4 ETA members were driving a bomb car to a place where they were going to blew it up killing still more pleople, the car blew with them inside...
as result next 3 days they put 2 bomb cars and killed another innocent man by a shot on the head...
They launch Molotov Cocktels to the business of council people of all councils in Basque country, they kill people, they are the worse cowardest scum in Europe...they are a n(true) Nazi group between us...
and they base their actions on the "opression" of the Spanish government...
You want to KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF HERE WAS A DEATH PENALTY,DAMNIT, SIR?!
That they'd have a point. They'd have martirs, they'd have ICONS TO ADORE...DAMNIT THE FOUR ASSASINS KILLED WHEN THEY DROVE A BOMB CAR THAT BLEWED UP BEFORE REACHING THEIR TARGET ARE SAID TO BE "LOYAL PATRIOTS" "HEROES AGAINST THE REPRESSION", "MARTIRS OF THE BASQUE CAUSE"
All this has been said by the leader of the current HB, Arnaldo Otegi...can you IMAGINE what would he SAY if there were people killed by DEATH PENALTIES, SIR!?
AKFokerfoder, take this advice from a unexperienced 22 year old guy...never NEVER mess in such complicated things as terrorist groups in Europe...NEVER, because you have NO IDEA of what are you talking about, SIR!
In USA ETA is known as an "independist group"...that says it all about your "knowledge" on the matter, SIR! to call an independist group a FU****G TERRORIST GROUP is quite a signal of ALL you know.
AND BTW IF I DONT RECALL BAD 80% OF THE INCOME OF THE IRA CAME FROM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, SIR!
So clean YOUR HOUSE before entering the others' SIR!
[/rant off]
Sorry the rant. We are all really raged with the current situation here and now I have to listen to crap as this:
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+:
You Europeans turn your IRA and other bombers back loose on the streets. Do you smile when you here that?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-11-2000).]
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Hopefully some Americans will read what you wrote RAM. Read it and realize that the Basque situation and Northern Ireland situation is not nearly so simple as portrayed in the US. There is no simple solution to any problem that is centuries deep in hatred and fear. Playing hardball merely exacerbates a bad situation and causes more violence. The British and Irish are doing the best they can to try for a new beginning and to reduce the hatred and mistrust.
Hopefully something happens to help turn the situation around where you are RAM.
Sisu
-Karnak
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That is totally strange, I am not cristian, and I do not believe in any gods and I shall remind them about mercy. How ironic! I am more than sure than lot of those people who want to hang other people in the squires are good cristians and attent the church every Sunday.
"History teaches us that it does teach us nothing".
Hate can not be beaten with hate. That is like snake which bites its own tail -- you can not break this circle so easily.
Death penalties may reduce number of crimes (slightly), but harshness of crimes INCREASE very high. It is a proven fact, you can go to the nearest shop, buy the book on criminalistic and you will find it there. When people knows that they risk high penalties they tend to kill witnesses. When in the Soviet Union it was the death penalty for a rapists number of killed victims TRIPLED. Every time you vote for death penalties you in fact take blame in those extra kills.
I saw 2 wars, I saw when people killed each other only because they were of different nationalities and believed in different gods. I saw pogroms and tanks in the streets of my city firering on defencless civilians. I saw more atrocities in my short live than 99% of you will ever see, and I know that hate lead only to hate.
Fariz
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Fariz,
Wise words (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Fariz,
Make the death penalty apply when someone is killed and your argument doesn't hold water. Make it apply to lesser crimes and it does.
I'm not a big fan of the death penalty. I believe we need it, but in a highly modified format. As it stands right now, the District Attourny is prone to use a death-penalty conviction as a stepping stone in his carrear. I believe that if any person executed after being convicted of murder is later to be found innocent... the DA should be tried for murder. Make the conviction count as a conviction.. not as a career builder.
AKDejaVu
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AKDejaVu,
And tried for Attempted Murder if the individual is found to be innocent before being put to death (this would be different than having the case overturned on appeal, which is just a reasonable doubt). If law enforcement officers gave false information to the DA that s/he then based the case on, they should be tried instead.
In other words, the DA had better be D**M sure the guy did it before he asks for the death penalty.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Let's see, since the death penalty was brought back in Illinois, we have had 12 people executed... and 12 people freed from death row who were falsely convicted. Nice batting average. Sorry, that's one power our screwed up government should not be trusted with.
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funked:
Interesting way of seeing it. It would seem, at least to the untrained casual obsrver, that the same people who distrust the government in terms of their intentions with guns ought to distust the government in terms of administering punishment.
I.e the logical conclusion would be for right wing people that the dp might be good, but not with the government as it has been all these years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
B
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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"It would seem, at least to the untrained casual obsrver, that the same people who distrust the government in terms of their intentions with guns ought to distust the government in terms of administering punishment."
That's me. There's also that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" thing...
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-12-2000).]
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I just watched "the hurricane", if everything in tha movie is true, what if he had been executed? That would suck. People are sometimes wrong. BUT i have a cool idea.
OK with all the reality shows on TV:
we make the show PRISONER
We put protected cameras all over a island in the pacific full of sharks and stuff around it. Then we throw all the rapists and murderes etcera on the island and let them have at it, and televise it. Itll be like survivor but for real. With ad revenue we could cut taxes too! We could keep some people in boats around the island with the money gained through ads to makesure noone got ingenious and made a raft or something.
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Zigrat, sort of "Truman show"??
You must be joking. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Why not somethink my ancestors use to do??
A big arena, a Stadium, give them blades and other weapons, then let the strong survive, "Ave caesar, morituri te salutant".
That one will have the life imprisonment.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Heheheheh
You guys are crude, violent and sadistic.
How can I *not* like you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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"AKFokerfoder, take this advice from a unexperienced 22 year old guy...never NEVER mess in such complicated things as terrorist groups in Europe...NEVER, because you have NO IDEA of what are you talking about, SIR!"
[irony]
OTOH, everyone worldwide should feel free to contribute their expertise to solving US problems. Our difficulties here are extremely simple and straightforward with no complicating aspects. It's just that we are not sophisticated enough to realize that.
[/irony]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Zig,
"I just watched "the hurricane", if everything in tha movie is true, what if he had been executed? "
We're dealing with HOLLYWOOD here! When have they ever let truth get in the way of a "good boxoffice"? I'm not saying Carter wasn't innocent, just that I'd take most of that movie with a grain of salt.
Long ago, when the Dylan album came out <had just bought my first "high zoot" stereo and was playing it in the Q on Okinawa> I did a little research into the case due to interest from the song. Details then were probably fewer than now and I don't remember them all. I do remember that I felt the case could go either way.
But I like your "Survior" idea. Which book by Robert Heinlein used "Coventry" in the same way? I got CRS now, the precursor to Alzheimer's. I like that book and that idea then!
Hollywood. Jeez, those guys give the impression that everyone in the US is a gun-toting cowboy avenger. Right, Naso? Sort of like how they give the impression that every Italian is a Mafia operative. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If only life were so simple, eh?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-12-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Every Italian IS a mafia operative!
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Funked:
I guess you "trust" the Government enuff to man the Nukes, provide medical care for everyone, and provide you with a Social Security check as well???
BTW, it's "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Killing is justifiable in many instances. If you don't think there's a difference, well......
Cabby
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Killing is justifiable in many instances.
- cabby
I disagree with your personal belief, cabby. Unless, those many instances have to do with a threat by another living being upon ones immediate survival.
Okay, that's it for me here. These political threads are getting old. Discussion is fine if there's a thread of mutual understanding and consideration, but these recurring political themes serve little purpose except to provide a soapbox for us all to stand on. It's like we're two cliques, facing off one another, giving tit for tat. These threads aren't discussions, they're virtual shouting matches. And that's a shame. I said a while back that it would be nice if we could defer from the religious/politically motivated posts, but here I am as deep in the stink as the next person. What a hypocrite I am. What a fine bunch of people we are. Out.
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
[irony]
OTOH, everyone worldwide should feel free to contribute their expertise to solving US problems. Our difficulties here are extremely simple and straightforward with no complicating aspects. It's just that we are not sophisticated enough to realize that.
[/irony]
Well Toad, ironic or not this is a not valid point IMO...and I'll tell you why.
In Europe there is usually a high knowledge of your country toad...we see it all day long in TV, in press ,by CNN (I do see CNN but I dont understand a lot anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), in short we have lots of information about USA.
In USA your knowledge about Europe is, as best, low. I have found people asking me how was life in SOUTH AMERICA (yes, man some US people thinks that Spain is there!!), so go figure...
What makes a guy able to give opinions about something is only when he knows about the matter...and many US people doesnt know a Sh**t about Europe. So, while we more or less have information about your problems, your country, your laws...you have much less information about us.
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RAM:
If all you know about the USA is what you see on TV and the Movies, well, you don't know much.
BTW, i know helluva lot about Europe. From books, TV and Movies. Not having lived there though, i guess i don't know much about it all.
Cabby
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...and don't forget Holll-EEE-wood!
another excellent source of information about how things REALLY are in the ol' USA!
No, I'm certain you folks get a perfect, clear understanding of our issues from CNN.
After all, Ted Turner would never allow a slant to a news broadcast.
".....jeez, sometimes I crack myself up!"
From "Top Gun" a totally accurate Hollywood portrayal of the life and times of a USN fighter pilot.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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When I say TV I say SERIOUS TV...so informatives, and some documentals about USA.
I have been in USA too. So well I am sure I have way more knowledge about US than you about Europe.
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No doubt.
I'm sure you could clean up this town in two weeks, sheriff!
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Every Italian IS a mafia operative!
NOT TRUE, StSanta!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
I am a Mafia Administrative (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Hollywood. Jeez, those guys give the impression that everyone in the US is a gun-toting cowboy avenger. Right, Naso? Sort of like how they give the impression that every Italian is a Mafia operative. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If only life were so simple, eh?
Right said Toad !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We exported Mafia, You exported Hollywood...
Dunno what's worse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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ROFL Naso!
Well, the worst is Hollywood films about Italian mafia featuring gun toting avenging American movie stars (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Holllllll-EEEEEEEEEE-wooood
....is okay for fantasyland entertainment but my thought is that MAYBE 1 out of 20 releases is worth paying to see. Mostly we get warmed over themes and plot lines with better pyrotechnics and special effects.
...and my wife wants to know why I prefer playing AH to watching TV!
If I'm not goofing off on the computer, I'd rather read a good book.
Hollywood comes in last every time.
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In Europe there is usually a high knowledge of your country toad...we see it all day long in TV, in press ,by CNN (I do see CNN but I dont understand a lot anyway ), in short we have lots of information about USA.
Erm.. what everyone else said. There is no such thing as "serious TV". Someone you criticized in a previous post has a quote that applies quite well here: "Q:how do you know a reporter is lying? A:His lips are moving". The press tells people anything to get ratings. They have the ability to twist/deform/misconstrue any story into what they want. They have the ability to provide a story with a limited number of facts from a biased source and its called news.
As for how informed US citizens are in regards to the Basque community... you truly are mistaken. I guess you have no idea just how many Basque people are living in the united states. I guess you have no idea about how willing to hear their stories we "dumb Americans" can be.
All the Basque and Irish people I know that have told stories of their homes speak about the rebel factions with equal levels of disgust.
Look at what FokkerFodder said again. If a member of the ETA had planted a bomb in a supermarket parking lot and been caught... should he have been released from prison? After killing 30 people? Or should he have received the "life in prison" sentance... a 50 year death penalty?
Assuming that everyone is ignorant about everything and you are so informed because you watch the news is... well... ignorant. Your age is apparent.
AKDejaVu
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By the way RAM.. just so you don't think I saw you post your age and responded about it... I'll show you something I said a week ago:
You seem awfully smug. You also seem young and naive. Don't know how old you are.. and don't really care. Its just the impression I get when I read your posts.
I have to say the same still aplies.
AKDejaVu
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To RAM:
We execute terrorists in the USA. I don't care how "noble" the cause. Good riddence to rubbish.
I was in Croatia and Bosina in 1993 as a civilian with the UN Protection Forces. I saw how civilized you Europeans are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I remember watching the Serbs seal off Serajevo (around the 7 or so of July 93) We could see them fighting on Mount Igman. I saw the Bihac pocket, Visoko, Kakanj, Buscovaca, (my spelling may not be 100%) Vitez and a buncha other places.
I say hang terrorists of any persuasion, in the US. If you want to make heros of them that is you choice. Twice last century Americans had to go into Europe to clean up your mess. And we have troops in Kosovo as I write this. Lets see you have Nazis elected in Austria.
Yep, bet we stupid, ignorant, gun toten red necks are gonna have to go into Europe soon to clean up your kee rap again.
We have lots of fights with the Canadians, but those are on the Hockey Ice. The Mexicans aren't a threat, we just try to slow down the illegal immigrants.
You make your bombers heros, we hang ours. Hmmm and we have fewer terrorists than you do. May be a corelation?
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-13-2000).]
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+:
You make your bombers heros, we hang ours. Hmmm and we have fewer terrorists than you do. May be a corelation?
Maybe I have expressed myself bad, but I think it is not the case here,and that you have read bad my message, or refused at all to read it complete...go and read it again and then come back here, please.
I DONT MAKE A BOMBER AN HERO!. But there are people in HB (the political branch of ETA) who does. The only chance of survival of HB/ETA is to make some people here think that they are opressed by the spanish government, so making "legal" the terrorism ETA does. This is utterly crap, pure toejam...but unfortunately there are people who believes them. And as long as there are people voting HB and supporting ETA there will be terrorism in this country.
IF you start hanging ETA terrorist they will idolize them and make them icons to adore. They will affirm then that Spanish government assasins Basque heros and they will be stronger on their points of view,as people who believe in them will do it stronger.
90% of the people here doesnt believe that kind toejam. But some 10% does and that is enough to make ETA keep on killing bombing and terrorizing.And dont tell me that it is a difficult thing to believe. In 1935 in Germany, much more percentage of people thought that Germans were a superior race. In year 1950 in US people thought that communist people were devils...
And in year 2000 some people still thinks that death penalty is a good way to stop historical-origined terrorism.
All those things are IMO much more difficult to believe than ETA's lies. And those lies also succeeded.
As a last word I'll tell you that I think you believe that I support those bunch of SOBs.That is a direct and personal insult, for you are calling me terrorist (he who support terrorists is IMO a terrorist too). I will regard it as a misread of my post, and forget about it. I hope you read my original post ENTIRE and then post your thoughts. And maybe you change your point of view about me.
I hate that scum so much as noone can. I live in the land they say they "defend" and "Fight for". It is crap. It is toejam. It is senseless...but it happens. I am ashamed of my land having such crap people here. But I am proud that the major part of the basque people are actively fighting against them, and always with pacific ways and peace in front.
Ah BTW if your measurement of Europe "civilization" is Ex-yugoslavia then you have a lot to learn about us, sir.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-13-2000).]
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Where was it World War I started again?
<G,D,R>
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Well, you see,e very nation has to go through its own years of raping and pillaging. In the case of Denmark, we did it 1000 years ago; and we were actually doing the world a favour, as we bugged the French and Brits.
They got their turn a bit later on, and now it's the turn of the US. Only they've not manage to quite keep it outside their own borders. Either that, or they think it's so amusing they want something near home too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Gee, nobody answered!
It was Sarajevo!
Of course, since then things have really calmed down in that region. Nothing but peace, love and brotherhood in that area now, right?
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That area has been a hotspot through history, and will remain so for a very long time.
Not sure what you're saying; you're saying that the Balkans are part of Europe, therefore Europe is a violent place (cut out in black and white)?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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This has gone on for a long time of posting. There has been everything from reasoned argument to disection of the argument with quotes out of context to nationalistic ferver. Not to mention a fair amount of gratuitous U.S. bashing.
HHHMM where to start.
Well, lets try this.
I have had my life threatened and my family as well. Not because I did something wrong, but because I had the temerity to wear a badge and work as a Police Officer. One of those who threatened me tried to do the deed. He tried to repeatedly (3 times) stick a knife in me. The only reason I am here is that it was a broad blade (dull too) knife that was able to be stopped by my bullet proof vest. On search AFTER I finally got him cuffed I covered the trunk lid of a patrol car with edged and pointed weapons that were on this person. Yep he was a "street person" and it was winter so he had on plenty of clothing with pockets.
This individual was released 3 weeks later without ever having gone to trial. Why?? He was able to convince a Psychologist that he was looney. The shrink recomended release as the person really couldn't be guilty since he was crazy and after all, he wasn't a danger to himself or others.
This same individual was later found sleeping in a vacant house. When the Police Officer tried to wake him up the transient came up swinging a 2" by 4" board about 4 feet long and knocked the flashlight out of the Officers hand. Since the Officer was backlit from the doorway the transient could see him but the transint was in deep shadow. The Officer tried to defend himself but had to back out of the house. A police dog was sent in to te house and the transient almost killed the dog. The dog required some serious treatment and was unable to return to duty. It took a large dose of tear gas and pepper spray to get this person out of the house and under arrest. Thgere were additional minor injuries to the Officers.
For two attempted murders of police officers and injury to a police dog this individual was taken to the hospital for psychiatric evaluation. He was released about 2 months later and left the area.
Had I shot this scumbag the second assault would never have happened. I didn't shoot him as we were in the middle of a park and I felt the bullet would have gone through this guy and hit someone else. I still wonder if I did the right thing.
Another case. We had an individual who had killed a few people in the course of some robberies. He was convicted and sentenced to life since he didn't get heinious enough in the commission of the murders. Later he was visited by his two sones. They were able to smuggle a weapon into the prison and "broke him out". During the escape the felons carjacked a family on the highway. They killed a family of 4 after raping the wife. The man hunt did turn them up. The "father" who started this died of exposure in the desert. One of the sons was wounded and captured the other died in a gun battle with Police.
If "daddy" had been executed to begin with that family of four would still be alive.
Do I believe in capital punishment. You bet! Unlike the vast majority of those posting here, I have met some of those "innocents" on death row. I do not want them out, EVER. I want them where there is an iron clad guarantee they will not hurt others again. There is only one way to do that.
The people in prison are by far very un nice folks. Yes I am sure one or two would be real nice people if they didn't rape, or rob. or kill. Yes there are some there on drug charges. If they were selling that crap to others then they deserve to be there. In this state (Arizona) you do not go to PRISON for minor possession of pot. You go to prison for dealing in pot when you sell a significant amount. Personally I want those who sell drugs to youngsters and kids in jail.
I saw some news about justice in Europe. Britain to be exact. It seems there was this
young lady who came to the U.S. as an AU Pair (not sure of spelling). She was trusted with the care of an infant. She killed the child. It didn't die of neglect, it was murdered. As she was going through the criminal justice system there was a tremendous outpouring of protest from the "civilized" European community that we would DARE prosecute a "child" (18 I believe) for such an offense. the British Government got into it and for some reason the U.S. agreed to send this "child" back to her home. Is she in a British prison? Nope. The British justice system has no jurisdiction over the crime so they CAN'T punish her. She got away with murdering a helpless infant. She wasn't rich, she wasn't victimized, she was a damn killer of a baby. Nice example of "civilized" European justice. I understand now that her poor old daddy was arrested for robbery recently. I suppose he'll get spanked and sent home without his supper.
The final thing I want to say on this same subject is the release of the killers from British prisons. I understand that some people in Ireland feel that they have had a "war" going on with Britain over who is governing that part of the empire. It seems to me that bombing markets in a civilian area where there are no "enemy" troops are is hardly civilized. Car bombs in civilain areas the same. I guess they aren't totally stupid because if they did attack the British Army directly they would get their tulips handed to them. It's far better to blow up civilians, they can't shoot back. Oh and lets not forget throwing grenades and shooting unarmed mourners in a cemetary, yeah that's real civilized too. And what is the stated reason for killing them? They were Catholic, or they were Protestant. Yeah man you can't go wrong killing in God's name can you. After all those other folks are just heathen Christians aren't they. Later they can make an "agreement" that you won't do it again so the British will just let you out of jail. I'm glad I don't live there.
Yep, Europe has had a long and glorious history killing each other. It's so nice to know that they have stopped doing that type of thing now and are civilized. Of course the Basque situation that RAM posted and the minor disagreement in the former Yugoslavia don't count. After all Europe is so civilized now. That means they can criticize the U.S. and feel all smug about it. After all the U.S. has had only 200 years or so of growing into the country it is now. Why, we just don't have all the experiance that the Europeans do in the 1500+ years of killing each other for varied reasons. We can't possibly as civilized as they are.
A note on intollerance.
If you don't like the U.S., fine. Why don't you start your own game and or BBS and vacate this American one if Americans are so "ugly". I have found numerous posts from Europeans with a very negative slant. I found no unprovoked posts discrediting the current European governments. Methinks there are plenty of "ugly europeans" posting here.
I have never posted any negative comment on any of these threads against a modern European government or society but I have seen plenty from Europeans dumping on America. I am tired of the trash talk. Kindly keep your trash home please.
Mav
Long post but I got more than a little ticked over the innuendo and outright garbage being posted. People, if you have never been on the "front lines" of dealing with the criminal element of ANY society, you have no right to speak as an expert.
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Maverick,
calm down, take it easy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
About your note on intollerance, i feel the need to answer:
I have many american friends, and i use to have the same discussions, without any bashing, simply trying to analize problems and differences, and this go both ways.
I never said i dont like US people, i dont like some aspect of US culture, in the same manner i dont like many aspects of Italian culture, and when and where you want, i am open to discuss about our problems, the same manner we just discussed about yours, without the need to defend my country just because "wrong or right, is my country".
Talking about tollerance, you stated:
Why don't you start your own game and or BBS and vacate this American one if Americans are so "ugly".
I understud this was an Internet game and bbs, and for my believings, internet (thank God) is overnational, free, and worldwide.
I dont knew to play this game and to post in this BBS i had to be an US citizen (world is your property, uh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) ).
If i am wrong, and if HTC dont want external-US customers, let them say this, and i will go, no problem.
As you stated, there are Ugly Americans and Ugly Europeans, nothink new in this, we already knew it, we never said the opposite.
Let's try to discuss as nice people, with rational argumentations and, why not?, little bit of irony here and there.
Peace and love brother, we are on the same rolling ball travelling in a vacuum space, and the modern technology permit people so far (but in reality so near), to speak with each other and to exchange points of wiew, this is a great occasion to evolve, all of us, over the little jails the borders are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Last, about the "front line", been there done that, and (ushh, wispering) both sides (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Naso
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To keep the thread alive; I'll add this. It's a standard piece of discussion between an Ugly American and a Poor Innocent Foreigner.
UA: "Uh, yeah, and thank God that we saved them that time too. If it wasn't for us, the whole WORLD would be a cesspool of tyranny and opression"
PIF: "Well, I don't believe that is entirely your doing. And it seems to me that the US has some major problems that most other western industrialized countries do not."
UA: "What the HELL are you talking about?!? We SAVED your butt during WWI and II, so you shut the hell up. We ain't got no problem. Am I talking TRASH about YOUR country?"
PIF: "Err, I am not talking trash. I am just pointing out that all is not perfect in that country of yours and that your nationalism might have clouded your judgement. In fact, some things are worse than in places of comparative wealth and technology. Go ahead and trash talk my nation, if you will; I do not have the same nationalistic feelings as you do. I could explain why."
UA: "What the HELL! <gets out gun> Well, you pinkie little Euro liberal, love it or LEAVE it. We all know you Euros are nothing but conformist. At least HERE we have REAL freedom! Now go away and come crying when WWIII starts. BTW; isn't the Balkans Europe? It IS, so shut the foohicky up"
PIF: "Uh. As I said, places of comparative wealth and technology. And don't you mean "diddly"?
UA: "Why you nasty little dirty bugger! That sorta talk will RUIN our kids. Shut your ears young man <slaps son over the head with backside of hand>. Go watch some violence on TV instead, it's better than all that openness towards sex those pinkies are trying to promote"
<enters an Italian and a French>
Italian: "Wella, my deare friendes. Dere ees no need far deesa harda words, eh?"
<enters a Million March Mum>
MMM: "Yeah, let's all be friends"
French guy: "Aaah mon ami <throws hands in air>, I cannot be frriends wid zat morron! He is AMERRICAN!"
UA: <gunshots> Weeell, better dead than red, Frenchie boy.
Italian: "Buta Mr Ugly American! You shot MMM!"
PIF: "Uh, that was my cue. I hear there are commies on the east coast, Mr UA.
"Well, I'll be damned! Once again we save the world. Now SHUTTHEHELLUP while we export our culture to the rest of the world along with the idea that we're the greatest nation in all respects ever."
PIF: "I see we shall be having more talks"
<Frenchman, from under a table>: "Wat, you haveen't capitulated YET? Here, borrow my white flag."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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ROTFL !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Very interesting scene, i am amazed how you manage to fit the entire summa of the "Ugly American Style" in a short comedy, you are an artist !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yawn
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wtg Santa, Give 'em hell ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I left lots of dirty words out of this text because someone could take them as a insult and yell to his family.
At least nobody can't blame me now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
btw:
I heard a story about a Finnish guy who bought a house from Florida. He was talking with his neighbour who asked did this guy have a insurance for his lawn. Guy asked why the hell should he have that ?
Neighbour told that if some tresspasser fall down on the lawn and got some "pain in the neck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)" that trespasser could sue the owner and claim some money (uhh.. Million?)
Maybe another "urban story" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by JimBear (edited 08-18-2000).]
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Wow st. santa. Keep this up and you'll prove that Europeans hate the US almost as much as they hate each other.
AKDejaVu
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Well first of all it is so transparent what you think of us, no big deal.
Most of your European countries are smaller than out states. It blew my mind when I found out that Paris to Berlin was only 500 miles (800 km). I've taken my kids to skating competition that far on a weekend, and didn't think much of it (the distance). I mean that would be like me being raised in North Dakota (I was), speaking a different language than those in South Dakota, and going to war with them every 30 or 40 years. It's mind boggling, it really is. A little speck on the map, but Northern Ireland, they slaughter people on the streets. (don't give me all that kee rap about all their money coming from the US, very few Americans support the IRA) The Basques go nutso every now and then, the Serbs and Croats are at each others throats. Chechnya is a blood bath, Albania is a powder keg waiting for a spark… this list goes on
The American people have spent untold fortunes, and over a half a million American lives, trying to keep you Europeans from each others throats. We still have troops in Europe, some in Bosnia, some in Kosovo, Spain, Italy, Germany… Costs us a lot of bucks. I mean why aren't there Danish troops in Kosovo??? I'll tell you why, because you won't spend the money, let the Americans do it.
What are you doing about Nazis being elected in Austria? Nothing, that's what. I really wonder if you guys really do hate Jews and would like to burn some more. Your actions speak louder than your putrid words.
You don't have to spend a big chunk of your tax dollars keeping America peaceful. Yet you think you have the right to get on a BBS and tell us how to run things. You can't clean your own backyard up, but you can sure get on a BBS and call us Ugly Americans. Tell us how to run our country. So we can be like Europe? Have standing Armies at our borders??? Let me tell you that not one rational Canadian or Mexican will go to sleep tonight worried about a military invasion of their country from the US. Now cultural Empiricism, and trade dominance are another story.
You guys better clean up your act before you pontificate…
You may have noticed that not once have I told you how to run Denmark. You wanna confiscate guns?. Go for it. You want to elect Nazis? Go for it? You wanna burn books,give you freedoms to the government, go for it. You want to make heros out of guys who bomb children, go for it. You want to turn your rapists and murders back on the streets, have at it. You run it your way we'll run things ours.
I just concerns me that we Americans have to spend a fortune to keep the lid on Europe.
Ugly American and proud of it.
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-18-2000).]
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WOW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) !!!!
Really ugly, indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sooooo..... back to the original subject ->
capital punishment.
I get a kick out of all these folks that are vehemently against capital punishment yet play wargames where the goal is to kill each other. It's like the anti-gunners letting there kids play with guns or play quake games. The excuse that it is just a game doesn't hold water. Stand up for your position in the real and virtual worlds.
My issue with capital punishment is that it is not always applied fairly. It is usually applied when the press whips everyone into a frenzy about the horrors of a particular crime. And of course, it is imperative that there is no doubt of guilt.
Sour
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+:
The Basques go nutso every now and then
You have no F**** idea of what do we,basques, do or not do. So why dont you go and learn SOMETHING before saying one more single word about this matters?...
There are innocent people dying here ,people who is menaced because they want freedom here, people who sees his home and business burnt by terrorists because they are part of a Spanish national party. I have had my own ration of problems with people supporting ETA,too.All because I want peace in my land.
This is a fight,and we fight day after day. One side,a vast minority with bombs, guns, molotov cocktels, sticks and use of the violence as deterrant.
Other side, a vast majority, only with peace, silent manifestations...who we try to bring peace to our land.
Still you have to spread your ignorance about the problems of my land and put BS on those people ded,wounded, or frightened by a terrorist group...
So learn something about us or shut the hell up at once,Sir.
Note I am trying to not to explode...keep saying stupidities about Basque country and I wont keep my mouth shut any more.
What are you doing about Nazis being elected in Austria? Nothing, that's what. I really wonder if you guys really do hate Jews and would like to burn some more. Your actions speak louder than your putrid words.
Again you show no F*** knowledge about the situation in a place, still you have to use your deficient knowledge to argue something.
Listen, Austria did NOT Elect a nazi regime. A party was in minority and Haider's party had the numbers to make them have the power. So they did a pact with a nazi.
I am quite sure that next elections this party will have way less votes.
But Haider had VERY LOW nomber of votes by himself.
You have NO idea of what are you talking about.
You don't have to spend a big chunk of your tax dollars keeping America peaceful.. Yet you think you have the right to get on a BBS and tell us how to run things.
For sure I do think it. Its called "freedom of speech" Maybe too much difficult thing for you to understand?
You are nothing but an ignorant, sir. You dont know a toejam about many things, still you have to argue about them.
Stop doing it(Specially with my land's problems), or, finally you will get a proper response from my side. And it wont be a soft one.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-18-2000).]
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Heh, am reeling 'em in.
Think this one is big enough for a Texas BBQ, ripsnort? Oh; I forgot. Texans only eat red meat. Dead red meat, unless they're very hungry.
Well first of all it is so transparent what you think of us, no big deal.
Naw, I like Americans in general. They're straightforward, easy to talk to and pretty direct. In the USA, I see this rare combination of extreme raw power, naeivity(sp?), cynicism and innocence.
I'm having a good time here. Maybe it isn't so clear when I'm joking and when I'm not, something I was recently told by a close friend of mine, and it puts people off. For this I must apologize, but I don't think I will change. When I am not joking and poking/being poked at, I am most likely either depressed, angry, bored or engaged in a pointless discussion about how many atheists you can put on top of a very large beer can. I prefer the first and last, so I do what I can to stay happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
But, since I am drawn into discussions like an American Opportunist to a low target, here I go.
Most of your European countries are smaller than out states. It blew my mind when I found out that Paris to Berlin was only 500 miles (800 km). I've taken my kids to skating competition that far on a weekend, and didn't think much of it (the distance). I mean that would be like me being raised in North Dakota (I was), speaking a different language than those in South Dakota, and going to war with them every 30 or 40 years. It's mind boggling, it really is. A little speck on the map, but Northern Ireland, they slaughter people on the streets. (don't give me all that kee rap about all their money coming from the US, very few Americans support the IRA) The Basques go nutso every now and then, the Serbs and Croats are at each others throats. Chechnya is a blood bath, Albania is a powder keg waiting for a spark… this list goes on
Well, it is important to recognize that what matters is not physical distance, but cultural differences. Here in Europe, we've happily slaughtered each other in the name of power for literally thousands of years. While the USA is a very heterogenous place, I believe Europe is even more so, especially if you include places like Chechnya into "Europe". And only 90 miles away from the US, you have Cuba. Huge cultural differences. Sort of illuminates what is important.
The American people have spent untold fortunes, and over a half a million American lives, trying to keep you Europeans from each others throats. We still have troops in Europe, some in Bosnia, some in Kosovo, Spain, Italy, Germany… Costs us a lot of bucks.
And if you think that this is because the Americans are great altruists, you are either a patriot or very gullible. The US have interests, and it will do what is necessary to expand or keep up its influence. As will Denmark, except it doesn't have much military influence, so it does less.
I mean why aren't there Danish troops in Kosovo??? I'll tell you why, because you won't spend the money, let the Americans do it.
There are Danish troops in Kosovo. There were Danish troops during the Balkan wars. Some came home in body bags. All were volunteers. I believe the US do not have conscription, so one could argue that US soldiers knowingly accept the risks and rewards of their jobs.
We even sent a tenth of our air force to do some bombing (a whooping eight or ten F-16's, woohoo, power to the Vikings!)
What are you doing about Nazis being elected in Austria? Nothing, that's what. I really wonder if you guys really do hate Jews and would like to burn some more. Your actions speak louder than your putrid words.
Uhm, you haven't been following the European political scene. The EU have taken some pretty drastic measures, even interfering with the internal affairs of a sovregein nation. And, despicable as those idiots are, they were democratically elected, and they are a legal party. And if you knew what the German government has been doing since WWII, I don't think you'd say that. It and Scandinavia has taken more refugees/immigrants than other nations in Europe.
You don't have to spend a big chunk of your tax dollars keeping America peaceful. Yet you think you have the right to get on a BBS and tell us how to run things. You can't clean your own backyard up, but you can sure get on a BBS and call us Ugly Americans. Tell us how to run our country. So we can be like Europe?
I would if I could. But then I would be meddling in your internal affairs, and you'd be upset about that, too. And I do have the right to tell you how I think the US should be run. However, in this thread I haven't. Others have pointed to things they think are screwed up, and you've pointed to things you think suck. This is the very freedom you value as highly as I do.
I'll defend with my life your right to disagree with me. Judging from the content of your post, it seems you're not willing to do so for me, since I in your eyes do not have the right to critizise matters that take place within a certain geographical area.
Have standing Armies at our borders??? Let me tell you that not one rational Canadian or Mexican will go to sleep tonight worried about a military invasion of their country from the US.
Well, we've feared the East Block more than each other, and have had peace (developed countries) since WWII. With a few disputes, such as the Falklands Islands being the exception. Why do we have armies? To handle threats that might arise in a very quickly developing society. Now I wonder why NATO (the US) were opposed to a standing European army that were to deal with internal security? They key word is influence; the US has it, and wants to keep it. But, influence costs. Lives, and money. Then again, ya can't both have the cake and eat it. And this is true for every nation, not just the US.
Now cultural Empiricism, and trade dominance are another story.
I like Coca Cola. Hollywood generally sucks, and most American mainstream bands are bad. On the other hand, European dogma films are exceedingly boring in most cases.
You guys better clean up your act before you pontificate…
My country is clean. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You may have noticed that not once have I told you how to run Denmark. You wanna confiscate guns?. Go for it. You want to elect Nazis? Go for it? You wanna burn books,give you freedoms to the government, go for it. You want to make heros out of guys who bomb children, go for it. You want to turn your rapists and murders back on the streets, have at it. You run it your way we'll run things ours.
Heh, and if you notice, I've several times stated in other threads that you do what you want; you guys live with the consequences. This does not hinder me from having and expressing an opinion on the matter, one you can either address, ignore or discard as trash.
I just concerns me that we Americans have to spend a fortune to keep the lid on Europe.
You don't have to. Stop doing it, and you'll lose some influence. All your call; Europe cannot force you. Maybe it is a good idea to ask yourself why you're doing it. And have the same cynical attitude towards your government in this matter as you have in the question of gun control.
Ugly American and proud of it.
Great looking Dane and thinks little about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So, did I manage to push some buttons? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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ROTFALMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hehehehehe, man my sides hurt! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TOOO Funny!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You crack me up you really do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Can't wait til your next post!!
Keep 'em comming, I haven't had such a good laugh in a long time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hehehehhe Woooo (wipes tear from eyes)
Tooooo much! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-18-2000).]
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Still you thing is funny...
wont lose my time anymore with you.
Get lost, man.
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RAM, sorta gets one upset when they make blanket assumptions about difficult situtations in your country? Guess you get a leetle idea of how some of the state side folks feel when they get a "StSanta" hook. Ya know it should come out easy with a pair of pliers, but it sometimes gets stuck in your craw.
JimBear
"Its a small world after all...." argggghhhh
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Great post RAM! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ROTFLMAO! Keep it up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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So learn something about us or shut the hell up at once,Sir
LOL! didn't I say the same thing to you in another thread? If you are going to plagerize.. at least you can give me credit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Maybe now I could say something like "Everything FF needed to know about you he learned from TV" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As for you St. Santa... I understand the antagonistic aproach you take. It is pretty funny. I don't think RAM gets it tho. Antagonizing people is easy... making yourself sound educated without provoking someone isn't. I think its time you moved to the next level. I'm still working on 3 levels behind you BTW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW.. I've spent some time in Denmark. I visited the beaches during holiday. You might remember me... I was the only American that didn't have a camera (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-18-2000).]
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LOL!
Well, it might fog up due to heavy breathing.
Been there, done that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I don't have a home yet, nor a solid internet connection. You won't see me around AH for at least another week. But somebody had to say it:
Cultural Empiricism? America's the best place for Cultural Empiricists. You gotta love the range of experiences you get here. Maybe if more Amurricans were Cultural Empiricists, we wouldn't be such bastards overseas.
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Maybe now I could say something like everything FF needed to know about you he learned from TV"
LOL, maybe everything I needed to know about the Europeans I learned in Sarjevo in 93. Want me to post some personally taken pictures of bombed out houses, land mines,the shot to hell Sarajevo airport,???? Me on top of the PTT building in Sarajevo trying to keep communications going as the Serbs hit the town with about 1500 rounds of artillery a day???
I left because I got tired of Europeans shooting at my white UN vehicle.
I learned a lot that wasn't on TV. Those dudes are fricken nutso ... Hell give me a Branch Davidian or a KKK member over a Serb, Muslim or Croat anyday.
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AKfokerfoder:
I know you probably know this and I do not have to point it out, but the Balkans while part of Europe isn't precisely the Europe us elite rich well developed people live in.
Better to compare with, if you must, would be countries like te Scandinavian ones, Germany, Holland etc. That way ya have a place of equal stability, wealth, technolgical advance and so forth. Will avoid comparing beer to pizza. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As far as I am concerned, I do think that in some areas of the US (namely the slums, or whatever you call it), you have a low intensity conflict, with people killing each other at an alarming rate. Maybe their lack of wealth and ethnicity plays a role in why it is not taken more seriously.
Europeans want to make the US sound all dangerous and full of crime. The truth of the matter is that it's a relatively safe place where the nutters are just more nuts and have an easier time getting a gun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Now, it has been my experience that Americans are a bit more violent than Europeans of equal status (wealth etc). Ie they have a conflict where French people would yell a lot and throw arms in the air, whereas the Americans end up shooting at each other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"Hell, boy, you're infringing on my rights!"
*POWPOWPOWPOW*
"Uh, guess you ain't anymore"
;D
<continues fishing>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Quote from Akfokerfolder+
(ehhm can i use an abbreviation next time?, please?)
LOL, maybe everything I needed to know about the Europeans I learned in Sarjevo in 93.
This explain a lot about your knowledge, you can be called an expert in european cultures. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
You're so naive, i like you a lot, smack!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Will avoid comparing beer to pizza. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Offcourse you will avoid, Pizza is the food of gods, and wine is the beverage of gods, there is no comparation possible with anythink (except some anatomical part of woman). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And dont forget the sacred food of gods, the Mozzarella. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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What the HECK?! and Paella? where is MY PAELLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LOL!
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime