Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wilbus on November 17, 2005, 03:29:28 PM
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Rarely do this but as I haven't had much time to fly lately, just got back after a month AH leave (it was needed!), I'd like to know peoples opinions on the G14 vs K4 issue.
Actually, throw in the G6 aswell for comparison.
I have only flown a single sorite in the G14 so far but can't say I liked it, it felt heavier then other 109's and while faster then the G6 still not fast enough to surive the MA environment.
The K4 I love just as much as I loved the G10 and consider it to be the same plane.
After flying it more I don't think there is any difference at all, possibly more maneuverable but it may be an illusion (or wishfull thinking). I think it has lost a few MPH at the deck aswell and the DT rack now also affects performance by a few MPH.
So, why would anyone chose a G14 over the K4 in the MA? Or why do you (if you do) do it?
It's not for speed, that's for sure. Or climbrate, the G6 (no wep) outclimbs the G14 if I remember correct.
EDIT: I understand some people chose the G14 thanks to either 20mm hub cannon option, or more likely, gondolas.
As I never use either, nor did on the old G10, this is no reason for me to chose a G14 but please tell me if you use it :)
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Fighter vs Fighter, K4. Faster, better climb. 30mm, but no gondies.
Buff hunting, G14. Good climb and speed, but has option to carry gondolas.
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G-14 seems more manuverable to me, but it could be wishful thinking.
Shouldn't it have the same engine as the G-6, but with much more power for only very slight weight gain from the MW50 installation?
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Correct, Karnak.
Weight diffo between the G-6, G-14 and K-4 was not considerable. G-6 weighted between 3150-3200, the G-14 ca3250-3120kg, the K-4 3362 kg... the biggest diffo being from the MK 108.
Why no gondies option on the 109K? It was standard kit.... like on Gustavs.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Why no gondies option on the 109K? It was standard kit.... like on Gustavs.
didnt all combat ready 109Ks removed gondolas option?
(off topic but) Galland was right, 109s should've beeen halted on the assembly lines years ago!
:)
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If you flew the G-6 (like I did during my last AH tour / subscription):
My Kill Numbers (http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?sortby=killsin_sort&player=Batz) (offered only as evidence that I flew it)
then you will enjoy the G-14. In AH1 though the low speed handling was much better on all the 109s. I flew the AH2 betas and the first tour after AH2 went gold. I have only few hours flying in the main since the latest release and enjoy the G-14 a lot but the G-6 is still my favorite 109. Hopefully, in the next few weeks I will get some time to actually play with all of them.
So far the K-4 is just like the old G-10 and I have no reason not to like. Its just that I am an 'anti-wonderwaffe' and chose to fly 'representative planes'. There were G-6 12000 were produced and 5000 or so G-14s.
The G-14 has a few issues which Pyro said he would take a look out. See this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164744)
Once that get addressed and the Max ammo capacity for the center MG151/2cm gets upped to 200 rounds they will be close to perfect. They just miss the historic cockpits.
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AHHHH.......... thank you Wilbus!!!
Someone else has noticed the loss in speed on the K4 vs the G10!!!
I noticed that in a G10 I could catch a OTD running pony even packing gonds when we both started out about co-E, but the K4 doesn't seem to be able to do this. Is the pony just a tad faster after the last patch? Or is the K4 a tad slower then the G10? Perhaps a little of both?
Also seems like the high speed stuff that used to be ok on the 109s above 5k is not quite the same. Used to be able to just barely exceed 500mph above 5k and didn't seem to stiffin up much, handled pretty good in fact, but now????
Hate that 30mm!!! any tips on aimming that thar tatter gun Wilbus ???
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I have previously tested G-10 deck speed (500ft, 100%fuel, clean), and i did the same for the K-4 the day it was introduced. Speed is exactly the same, 369mph. DT rack should have some effect though.
Placebo effect is strong here ;)
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i thought the k4 felt "heavy" and i can't hit crap with the spuds.
g14... hmmm, i dunno... i prefer the 20mm, but the speed seems slower and heavier...
and whyyyyy did they take away my 109f4 gondies!! :furious
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Originally posted by 1K3
didnt all combat ready 109Ks removed gondolas option?
:)
No, the opposite, all 109Ks had the option of adding gondolas. If they are modelled without the possibility to mount gondolas, it's incorrect. Pyro should fix it.
PS : If you read JG 26 War Diary of Caldwell, he notes that JG 26's 109K did came to the unit with gondola weapons.
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Originally posted by TimRas
I have previously tested G-10 deck speed (500ft, 100%fuel, clean), and i did the same for the K-4 the day it was introduced. Speed is exactly the same, 369mph. DT rack should have some effect though.
Placebo effect is strong here ;)
This seems to be correct for the lower powered 1.8ata version. At 1.98ata, operationally tested in Jan-February 1945, cleared in February 1945 and introduced to at least 4 Wings of 109K units, max speed at SL was 377mph.
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"So, why would anyone chose a G14 over the K4 in the MA? Or why do you (if you do) do it?"
BECAUSE, it puts more hair on me chest -and in the process removes some of it from me head...
But who cares? Me wifey tells me I'm beautiful anyway.
:D
-C+
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K4, but it doesn't matter a whole lot cause I suck in LW planes anyway.
Its just that I'm SO tired of spits everywhere. I have to fly LW a bit just to even the score so to speak.
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Well TimRas it may very well be an illusion (just like the imagined better turnradius) but I can't escape from or run down enemy planes the way I could before. The Spit XVI is very very close when it comes to speed in combat. Not sure how fast it is on the deck yet but it seems very very close, when I fly it or when I fight it I can usually keep up on 109's for a long time.
The G14 seems l alot heavier to me too Shane.
Good Ghosth! Finally you have crossed over to the Dark side! :D
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If you guys are taking the DTs and/or Gondolas (G-14) drag is modeled differently on external stores and hard points on the new models. I haven't done any speed tests on any of the 109s with a DT or DT rack / gondolas etc... I tested them all clean 100% fuel and a single center hub cannon. I will post the speeds later, the only real issue I found (or at least was concerned enough to post about) was with the G-14 and Pyro said he would look at that.
I am not sure I feel the same heaviness as you all, but prior to the latest release I haven't flown AH much in years.
FYI:
I never flew the 109s with Gondolas so the issue with the K-4 not having that option (or F-4 for that matter) doesn't concern me much. However, Kurfürst is correct in the K-4 definitely had the option and JG26 for example received their K-4s with the gondolas. However, most removed them...
The F-4 is different and the F-4/R1 had a different wing then the 'standard' F-4s. Very few of these were produced.
The G-6 is still fun to fly and once the G-14 gets straightened out it should be as well.
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Yeah I know about the DT rack slowing them down about 6mph at the deck. Don't use DT unless needed now. On the old 109 modells I always brought them + 100% fuel.
Just interested in a nice conversation about what makes people fly the G14 over the K4 or other way around. Not suposed to be another whine thread about LW rides.
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Not suposed to be another whine thread about LW rides.
Who is whining?
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I choose the K4 over Spit XVI. To be honest, I flew the Spit only about 5 flights, and I would pick the K4 over the Spit regardless of performance.
Still, my impression is that climb and acceleration are better in the K4.
The new G-14 does seem heavier in handling to me, but it might be because I use a lower pitched throatier sounding engine wav for it, whereas I use the G-10 sounds for the K4. I may be wrong due to "placebo" effect. :)
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G14 flies more like a slow "G10" (what we used to have as G10), and K4 flops around. I tried flying the K4 like I used to fly G10s, and it didn't work at all. I was flopping nonstop. I pull gentle (I mean GENTLE) moves at moderate speeds and my slats pop in and out NONSTOP. I think there's a bug in the modeling at the moment, but can't exactly figure out how to describe said bug. It's sort of like the spits that had the G-force problems, but different.
Anyways, the K4 got gimped big time. I can't turn at all in it, it's unstable, flops, slats constantly going even under minor moves, can't run from chit, all it can do is climb and dive, and forget taking on a spit anymore!
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Yeah I know about the DT rack slowing them down about 6mph at the deck. Don't use DT unless needed now. On the old 109 modells I always brought them + 100% fuel.
6mph? That's Something like 10 kph.
Can someone confirm that the DT's rack slows down 109 by about 6 mph on the deck? Just cause the real value was like... 1/3 of that ! ~2.5mph at SL.
German data for speed loss at SL with droptank rack under the fuselage. Click to enlarge.
(http://img13.potato.com/loc207/th_11d_DTrack_drag_109G.jpg) (http://img13.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc207&image=11d_DTrack_drag_109G.jpg)
First columns on the right : extra weigh from installation
2nd " " : flat plate area increase (m2)
3rd : speed loss at sea level, in kph
6mph drag penelty from the DT is ahistoric, it should be noted to pyro, too.
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Noone is Bruno. Yet :)
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Got in a tight dogfight with a Tempest today while flying a K4 - did some turning, some scissors ... I put a few rounds into him but just couldn't manage to land a tater - eventually he extended out and then came back and won the HO. The K4 can do quite well dogfighting IMO. Obviously you aren't going to be outturning Spits, but against stuff like P-51s, La-7s, Typhoons etc I think it's competetive (i.e. pilot skill winning out over airplane type) - and against the other stuff you can just run away or climb above them if necessary. And the 10 minutes of WEP vs. the 5 on most of the allied planes makes a big difference.
The G14 is ok, but it's performance is a step below the top of the food chain so you can't really control a lot of fights with it. But in terms of it's historical opponents (P-47Ds, P-38J/L, Spit 8/16, Typhoon, P-51B/D) it's really pretty good - obviously the Spits are a big threat in a dogfight, but the G14 is faster on the deck. The P-51 is probably the biggest danger as it is both faster (at all altitudes no less) and can turn about the same.
For the MA I think the K4 is the clear choice - the extra performance makes a big difference between controling the fight, or getting run down by something fast and then forced to turnfight with the Spits and Japanese stuff.
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Took some runs in the G14 the other day.
While not the aircraft to stay in a low furball with unless there is lots of E available, I found it delightful! Long WEP, nice speed, and modest handling.
Will keep flying it.
BTW, what skin is on it?
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2./Jagdgeschwader 4
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As quoted from Franz Stigler:
The G6 basically had a heavier motor and could fly higher…not more speed, but that’s it…it starts getting heavier every time they put something new in.
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The last one you flew was a G?
Yeah…actually it was a K model, but uh…we used it as a G model
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The armament, you used on the Messerschmitt…you used the Mk108 cannon…
Yeah we had it in the middle…we had two centimetre…or later a three centimetre Cannon…and then a thirty millimetre on top…two of them.
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I personally like the G-14 and the K model both dive at better speeds than they use too and the K pretty much fly's itself.
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i like g-14 better
btw 109s seem to have pretty sturdy airframe in AH. Is that true in r/l too? In 109 i can do high G-load turns that will make spit, p-51, and FW-190's wing break.
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Are you sure about that 1K3?
Most of the time that is just because the 109 is incapable of pulling those high G's due to bad elevator authority.
The 190 and Pony doesn't have that problem. All those planes can easily pull more G's then the pilot can take before blacking out.
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"btw 109s seem to have pretty sturdy airframe in AH. Is that true in r/l too? In 109 i can do high G-load turns that will make spit, p-51, and FW-190's wing break."
The smaller the wing the more it can endure forces. Eg. The bombers have huge wings but they should be very very heavy to achieve the same endurance as the wings on fighters. Of course in the question on fighters the wing spar design is significant, too.
-C+
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I prefer the K-4, even if hitting with the 30mm and deflection is difficult if not impossible now.
The G-14 is a sitting duck, compared to the G-10 and obviously K-4. It is too similar to the G-6 and too far from the K-4. I hope there is something still to fix in his FM.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
I'd like to know peoples opinions on the G14 vs K4 issue.
Maybe you should ask JBs,BKs,Ditch, Dutchie, Yaws, and many more players that i noticed flying well the Me109s before this sad patch,
Me109G10, was my favoritte ride before Me163s came in service for bombers interception on HQ mostly. Since AH2 and B24s came out, i started to like it more, cuz were more B24s than fighters in MA, and G10 was the best bomber buster.
I'm not a skilled fighter and i ussed it moslty against bombers with gondies, but after a while a could use it succseful sometimes against fighters.
I tried K-4, doesn't seems to have same FM, i feel it "heavy", slower and those 65 rounds makes it uneficient against bombers: imop is worst than G10
G14 seems to be slow, worst climb rate, but better firepower, turn rate ; imop worst than G10
G14 vs K-4 ? both sux
Let's forget it, and join SpitArena !:)
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Well Ghi I flew the G10 almost exclusivly before this patch aswell.
I haven't been in my 190's for quite some time because I consider them totally FUBAR.
Just wanted to know different opinions before I could make my own (just had another 1 month AH brake).
I have my own now nad I too think the K4 feels different, heavier, more unstable, could be an illusion of course.
The G14 I don't care for much at all, felt as heavy but much slower and it climbs worse then the G6 when not on WEP.
As for the 65x30mm shells that is the same as I flew the G10 with, no gondolas, so that doesn't bother me much.
Oh and I am trying my hardest to stay away from the spit/La7 temptation but it is hard sometimes when I get pissed off.