Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Swager on November 17, 2005, 07:01:39 PM
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Presently he is working of a movie called "Red Tails" about the 332nd all black squadron.
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linky?
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http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/657/657069p1.html
man i wanna see this guy put some magic touch on WWII air armada slugfest, Star Wars style :)
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I just hope he doesnt direct anything, ever again....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I just hope he doesnt direct anything, ever again....
LOL yeah..
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Actually, the 357th would have been a better unit to portray.
I just hope this is better than the last Red Tails movie.
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When is the Tom Cruze saves england from the krautburgerlers, in a spitfire using a Samari sword movie come out?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
When is the Tom Cruze saves england from the krautburgerlers, in a spitfire using a Samari sword movie come out?
2 weeks
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Originally posted by Swager
Presently he is working of a movie called "Red Tails" about the 332nd all black squadron.
Wasnt this one done already?
something about those guys from Tuskegee?
all kinds of people.Squadrons and aircraft flew in that war.
wish hollywood wasnt so target fixated one one or two specific small segments
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I just hope he doesnt direct anything, ever again....
You and me both.
That goes for writing as well.
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I'd like to see Spielberg direct one on the low level attack on Ploesti, or on Guadalcanal's Cactus Air Force against the Japanese, or one following one of the 8th AF's FGs - ala Band of Brothers.
So many compelling stories that could be told. Hollywood just seems stuck on remakes.
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hes gonna jar jar binks it.
he will have that kid from the everyone hates chris show. Singlehandedly defeat Germany.
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I have a can't miss script for a squel to Citizen Kane, but can't get the million$ I need to make it
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Oh God...theres gonna be a lotta bling-bling in this movie......
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Originally posted by ATA
Oh God...theres gonna be a lotta bling-bling in this movie......
yup
(http://www.rustedsunfilms.com/images/CLS%20production%20stills/bling-bling%20forrest.jpg)
oops, wrong era:p
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Haven't we had enough "group of black guys overcome The Man and prove themselves" movies in the last 10 years? I find it highly improbable that this film will be superior to "Glory" despite being a more recent war--and it has no chance if Lucas directs.
J_A_B
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Oh now!I guess the Evil white man still trying to hold the black man down.
Right next to my work thers a balck bar every sunday night thers special night called "Brother to brother" night.
I wonder how long it's gonna take before police arive after
"White man to white man" sign"is hung up.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You and me both.
That goes for writing as well.
Yep, not sure which is worse.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
hes gonna jar jar binks it.
Here's a preproduction photo of one of the main characters:
(http://a52.g.akamaitech.net/f/52/827/1d/www.space.com/images/v_howard_duck_01,1.jpg)
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0485985/
By George Lucas...This could have a lot of promise to it!
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BTW...pass me one of your wine coolers or light beer.
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Originally posted by oboe
I'd like to see Spielberg direct one on the low level attack on Ploesti, or on Guadalcanal's Cactus Air Force against the Japanese, or one following one of the 8th AF's FGs - ala Band of Brothers.
So many compelling stories that could be told. Hollywood just seems stuck on remakes.
I always wanted a Flying Tigers movie done by Spielberg. Or a PT boat movie with Borat.
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cav is borat
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Originally posted by Sandman
You and me both.
That goes for writing as well.
look at what the cat dragged in
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Haven't we had enough "group of black guys overcome The Man and prove themselves" movies in the last 10 years? I find it highly improbable that this film will be superior to "Glory" despite being a more recent war--and it has no chance if Lucas directs.
J_A_B
I may just have to watch "I'm gonna git u sucka" in honor of this post.
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Ohh goody. Another film about the same group they made a film about already.
That went against largley 3rd and 4th string opposition
I'll wait for the DVD
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Originally posted by storch
I may just have to watch "I'm gonna git u sucka" in honor of this post.
:rofl
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Well, the HBO movie "Tuskegee Airmen" really, really stunk. I guess there's only so much you can do, acting from a "cockpit," but they really did a poor job with it.
Hopefully, this will actually be a real movie.
I don't see what the big deal about them choosing this topic is, anyway... If they make it well, maybe more black kids in school will take an interest in history... This certainly is one of their moments in US history they can really be proud of, and one that so far has gotten a C-List movie status... I think it's a good one to remake.
Even if you have a problem with it, for whatever reason, think of it this way: Mustangs :cool:
(Also, if it makes enough money it could spur more aircraft movies, so I feel we all have to go and at least pay for it, even if we don't all sit through it).
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like to see a movie about BOB from the LW pilot view
or any ETO air combat movie from the german pov
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theres a couple of Len Deighton books that would probably make pretty good movies "Goodbye Mickey Mouse" and "Bomber".
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Originally posted by Eagler
like to see a movie about BOB from the LW pilot view
or any ETO air combat movie from the german pov
It would be interesting to follow JG26 from the Battle of Britain to the Circuses to D-Day and beyond.
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Originally posted by 1K3
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/657/657069p1.html
man i wanna see this guy put some magic touch on WWII air armada slugfest, Star Wars style :)
How the hell is Darth gonna fit inside a C.202 with headgear like that?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Actually, the 357th would have been a better unit to portray.
I just hope this is better than the last Red Tails movie.
Agreed. That last movie was painful to watch, so many inaccuracies it almost did the Tuskgee Airmen a disservice. Still, it was barely better than nothing. I do find it odd, however, that you're quick to attack men who did exactly the same thing every other war veteran did in defense of their country.
ATA, Groin, Storch, Other than them being black, what has any of those vets done to justify your response? If you ever met any one of them, and I'm pretty sure you haven't, you'd learn a bit more about history, too. to their credit, not one of them mentioned the BS they went through in training, but the same type of comraderie and kinship that every other armed forces unit had during the war.
I'm not sure if you lack the intelligence to comprehend the similarity, or too pained to acknowledge them.
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the fantasy of flight museum in Polk City, Florida has a very nice commemorative display for the tuskeegee airmen and also a finely restored P51C in redtail livery. http://www.fantasyofflight.com
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Yea he's making another movie, but insider reports hint that to prevent piracy, Lucas has sworn that the film will never actually be SHOWN to anyone. Rumor has it that the film will be not-shown for one year, and then digitally remastered to match his original vision, and released on DVD. To fight piracy, the released DVDs will not actually contain the movie but will instead contain 2 hours of watermarks and corrupted datastreams that can only be seen if you buy a new dvd player, cable, and television. The televisions however will not actually display anything to prevent camcorder copying, the cable will not contain any data lines so it cannot be spliced, and the dvd player is actually a cd shredder.
Lucas predicts this will finally result in one of his movies making a profit for the very first time, and industry officials led by the MPAA and Film Actors Guild have released statements supporting Lucas' anti-piracy efforts.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
2 weeks
ROFL !!!!!! :D :aok
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Germans vs. the Ruskies would be good.
Like Requiem, but a film ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVlFfG0n3Oo
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Is Jar-Jar gonna fly a P-51?
:eek:
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Naw, it will be Steve Erkel in a scarf and goggles.
http://www.kellie.de/fm1/fm_urkel.jpg
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Yea he's making another movie, but insider reports hint that to prevent piracy, Lucas has sworn that the film will never actually be SHOWN to anyone. Rumor has it that the film will be not-shown for one year, and then digitally remastered to match his original vision, and released on DVD. To fight piracy, the released DVDs will not actually contain the movie but will instead contain 2 hours of watermarks and corrupted datastreams that can only be seen if you buy a new dvd player, cable, and television. The televisions however will not actually display anything to prevent camcorder copying, the cable will not contain any data lines so it cannot be spliced, and the dvd player is actually a cd shredder.
Lucas predicts this will finally result in one of his movies making a profit for the very first time, and industry officials led by the MPAA and Film Actors Guild have released statements supporting Lucas' anti-piracy efforts.
Due to the poor audience reaction to the water mark version, studio execs forced Lucas to release the actual movie. Several years later came the first of some 20 tweaked, remastered, reedited, adjusted, colorized and monochromed "special" editions that allowed virtually the same content to be resold repeatedly at great profit to his increasingly fanatical fan base.
There was some outcry among purist fans of the original, due to his "creative prerogative" at changing the original World War 2 aerial combat scenes to bunny rabbit pillow fights. Apparently the original vision was an "Incomplete Vision," though critics note the new footage increases the merchandising opportunities in the 8-12 year old demographic that had been underserved previously. "It's my dammed move, and I reserve the right to screw with it a hundred more times if I see fit -- fans be dammed," said Lucas.
Charon
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ohh goody. Another film about the same group they made a film about already.
That went against largley 3rd and 4th string opposition
I'll wait for the DVD
And you base this comment on what? I'd like to see you make that stick with a bunch of 12th and 15th AF guys along with the RAF pilots who flew in that theater.
Guessing the LW pilots would question that comment too :)
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Haven't we had enough "group of black guys overcome The Man and prove themselves" movies in the last 10 years?
I have met 7 of those pilots and i have the utmost respect for all of them and every other veteran.They are the only Fighter Squadron to never lose a bomber they were protecting.Read that again---" They never lost 1 single bomber they were protecting !"
I personally think Ted Turner did a crappy job on the last film even though it was packed with outstanding actors and they deserve better than that.
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Lucas doesn't know that any fighter other than the P-51 played an important role in the outcome of the war.
A better movie could be made about the struggle for control of the skies in and around Rabaul and Lae....told from the standpoint of both the Japanese AND American pilots that took part.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
And you base this comment on what? I'd like to see you make that stick with a bunch of 12th and 15th AF guys along with the RAF pilots who flew in that theater.
Guessing the LW pilots would question that comment too :)
Based on the point when they were activly allowed to fully participate in the war.
After 4-5 years of fighting Most of the very best or at least the most experianced german pilots had already been lost.
" The qualitative superiority manifested itself both regarding the technical field and pilot training. The Allied fighters generally were superior to the German Bf 109 G and Fw 190 A in service in 1944. Moreover, at this stage, the quality of the Luftwaffe pilot standard was being worn down to a mere shadow of what it had once been, and this was the result of a terrible attrition in a long fight against numerically superior US formations over Germany" http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/normandy.htm
Not saying these guys from tuskeegee werent any good.
In fact they were.
And they can actually owe how good they were to the prejudices they faced.
Because they werent treated the same as their white conterparts this gave them added time to train which their allied white counterparts in didnt get to have. And the german pilots to that point were trained even less
In the end that added training paid off.
thus they inadvertently benifited from the very prejudices they were subjected to.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
I have met 7 of those pilots and i have the utmost respect for all of them and every other veteran.They are the only Fighter Squadron to never lose a bomber they were protecting.Read that again---" They never lost 1 single bomber they were protecting !"
I personally think Ted Turner did a crappy job on the last film even though it was packed with outstanding actors and they deserve better than that.
We heard that umteen times in the FIRST movie, which, horrible as it might be, has been shown a hundred frikkin times. Now they have to go back and trash the 'greatest generation' as a bunch of racists--which is most certainly what the new film will focus on. (A film about minorities overcoming obscatles is a GREAT way to get nominated for an academy award)
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LOL didnt see any complaints about Flags of Our Fathers...how many times has that been done? You guys are too funny sometimes.
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Originally posted by bj229r
We heard that umteen times in the FIRST movie, which, horrible as it might be, has been shown a hundred frikkin times. Now they have to go back and trash the 'greatest generation' as a bunch of racists--which is most certainly what the new film will focus on. (A film about minorities overcoming obscatles is a GREAT way to get nominated for an academy award)
Well, every now and then it is worth remembering that "the good ol' days" weren't all that good for everybody...
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Originally posted by Regular
cav is borat
WTF?? LMAO!!!!!!!!! haha
I LIIIIIIIIIKE!
And in Kazakhistan we say......If a man is hungry, it is like, a horse, is hungry.....
...And if a man is tired, it is like, a horse is tired....And if a man is running, it is like, a horse is running, and if a man is happy, it is like, a horse is happy, and if a man is cold, it is like, a horse is cold, and if a man go # 2, it is like a horse go # 2, and if a man is thirsty, it is like, a horse is thirsty, and if a man in cooking food, it is like, a horse is cooking food, and if a man is smelly, it is like, a horse is smelly, and if a man is working, it is like, a horse is working, and if a man is horny, it is like, a horse is horny..........and so and and so on and so on....
funniest borat clip!
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Personally, I think the great overlooked WW2 battle that needs to be made into a movie is Wake Island.
Essentially a small unit with compelling characters win an incredible victory against overwhelming odds, civilians even help out in the defense, and then finally go down to a tragic and moving defeat and are horribly mistreated by their cruel enemies. You even have air combat with some unbelievable victories (a Wildcat SINKS a destroyer with its 100lb firecrackers even!) "Braveheart" for the 20th century. With the right director it could be a box office smash.
- SEAGOON
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(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/6300185192.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056620623_.jpg)
made in 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/Wake-Island-Movie-John-Farrow/dp/6300185192). All the old movies should be redone with today's cinema technology
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william bendix as the tough but dependable brooklyn malcontent
there must have been someone like that in every theatre of war, cause he was that character in just about every war movie made in the 1940s
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"All the old movies should be redone with today's cinema technology"
Then you end up with worthless wastes of celluloid like 'Pearl Harbor'. No thank you.
Despite this thread being almost a year old, I maintain that any movie with Lucas in charge is going to be junk. I don't think he has a firm grip on reality anymore. But then, when you're as rich as he is, who needs reality?
The recent Iwo Jima movie is probably mediocre as well, unless you haven't seen REAL movies and don't know any better. I can't imagine it possibly being better than 'The Sands of Iwo Jima'. There's just no way that's even remotely possible. Hollywood doesn't make good movies anymore, and the mediocre ones seem good only because everything else is horrible.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Based on the point when they were activly allowed to fully participate in the war.
After 4-5 years of fighting Most of the very best or at least the most experianced german pilots had already been lost.
So...how many allied bombers were lost from the time the Tuskgee Airmen were reassigned from ground support to bomber escort? It would seem then, that no allied planes should have been lost by the time they were allowed to fly bomber escort.
Note: The Tuskegee Airmen were eventually requested to fly escort, not assigned.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
So...how many allied bombers were lost from the time the Tuskgee Airmen were reassigned from ground support to bomber escort? It would seem then, that no allied planes should have been lost by the time they were allowed to fly bomber escort.
Note: The Tuskegee Airmen were eventually requested to fly escort, not assigned.
they were clamorred for, it went beyond merely requesting.
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I agree that Wake Island, One of Our Aircraft is Missing, and most of the wartime movies have an atmosphere and charm all their own, but really only old movie buffs and WW2 geeks like us watch them. We have an entire generation growing up that probably couldn't find Wake Island given a map of the world and two weeks to work with it. How many modern Americans know the story of the Marines who fought and died there? I'd say fewer and fewer every day. Unfortunately, unless it comes out in a movie or a video game or a TV series, very few people know anything about it. I was a little appalled, for instance, at how few Americans recognized "Omaha Beach" prior to SPR being released.
Once in a while Americans need to be reminded that their ability to complain to their hearts discontent about the government was won for them, often by men who didn't survive to get their own chance to complain, and the only way that can be done in most cases is by making movies about those sacrifices. You never know, it might actually help to instill character qualities other than slackerism.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
So...how many allied bombers were lost from the time the Tuskgee Airmen were reassigned from ground support to bomber escort? It would seem then, that no allied planes should have been lost by the time they were allowed to fly bomber escort.
Note: The Tuskegee Airmen were eventually requested to fly escort, not assigned.
Again.
they were bettter pilots by virtue of the additional training they were able to have.
I never once claimed they werent good pilots.
Reread my post
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I agree that Wake Island, One of Our Aircraft is Missing, and most of the wartime movies have an atmosphere and charm all their own, but really only old movie buffs and WW2 geeks like us watch them. We have an entire generation growing up that probably couldn't find Wake Island given a map of the world and two weeks to work with it. How many modern Americans know the story of the Marines who fought and died there? I'd say fewer and fewer every day. Unfortunately, unless it comes out in a movie or a video game or a TV series, very few people know anything about it. I was a little appalled, for instance, at how few Americans recognized "Omaha Beach" prior to SPR being released.
Once in a while Americans need to be reminded that their ability to complain to their hearts discontent about the government was won for them, often by men who didn't survive to get their own chance to complain, and the only way that can be done in most cases is by making movies about those sacrifices. You never know, it might actually help to instill character qualities other than slackerism.
Good post
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so how many fighters did the red tails shoot down?
lazs
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Quote from acepilots website
The combat record of the Tuskegee Airmen speaks for itself:
over 15,000 combat sorties (including 6000+ for the 99th prior to July '44)
111 German airplanes destroyed in the air, another 150 on the ground
950 railcars, trucks, and other motor vehicles destroyed
1 destroyer sunk by P-47 machine gun fire (Lt. Pierson's flight)
sixty-six pilots killed in action or accidents
thirty-two pilots downed and captured, POWs
NO bombers lost while being escorted by the 332nd, a unique achievement
150 Distinguished Flying Crosses earned
744 Air Medals
8 Purple Hearts
14 Bronze Stars
Coincidentally I just happened to have watched the earlier film about the Tuskegee airmen on the National Geographic channel. Not great but interesting in it's own way.
While I wouldn't object to any movie featuring WW2 fighters. I am a little disappointed at the subject matter. I would have preferred a movie featuring the Eight Air Force or even the Ninth. But you know what? This isn't going to be a movie about the USAAF.
It's going to be about a group of men who overcame great adversity and triumphed in a unique way. Thus it's great movie fodder. The kind of film the great unwashed public will go to watch, not the kind of film we sad anoraks would like to see.
We should be grateful that they are even considering a movie which features our favourite warbirds. Although I am sorry to say I am sure it will be heavy with CGI. I don't care what anyone says CGI just isn't the same and they still haven't got a handle on making it realistic.
One other thing, downplaying the achievements of those guys is a little bit racist. Their efforts speak for themselves and like the black riflemen in the infantry they felt they had something to prove and so fought harder than many an equivalent white unit.
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ITs not racist.
Its a fact. by the time the Tuskegee guy made it to combat.
the quality of the german pilots wasnt near what it once was.
Most of the more experienced and best pilots were already lost
And the training time for the german pilots was way down
Where as the tuskegee guys the training was above the norm.
That in turn made them better pilots then those they were going up against
In reality. the reason why they were so successful isnt because they were black. which Im some there is at least someone who would try to make that claim.
But by the combination of the additional training they were able to receive.
As well as the superioour aircraft
And the drop in quality opponents.
If you want to point a finger at why they did better then their white conterparts agains the same calibre foes.
Point a finger at the training. Not the color
As I said before. they inadvertently benifited from the very same prejeduces they had faced
How this is considered recist is beyond me
Unless someone wants to claim that th ereason they were so successful was because they were black.
That to me is far more a racist statement
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Originally posted by lazs2
so how many fighters did the red tails shoot down?
lazs
Fighter Escort's prime directive is to protect the bombers, which means running off or shooting down the interceptors if necessary. Given that not one allied bomber was lost under their watch, the number of kills (which by all accounts, every squadron embellished their numbers) is irrelevant.
It takes an inordinate amount of dicsipline to fly escort and not get wrapped up in getting kills, even in AH it takes diligence.
In bomber escort, kills are secondary.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
ITs not racist.
Who called you a racist? As far as I recall, the first comment someone made about race, was some idiot talking about bling. You made mention of the axis pilots not being as good as they were eariler in the war.
Agreed. You're getting awfully defensive. maybe I missed it, but I don;t believe anyone called you a racist.:noid
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Who called you a racist? As far as I recall, the first comment someone made about race, was some idiot talking about bling. You made mention of the axis pilots not being as good as they were eariler in the war.
Agreed. You're getting awfully defensive. maybe I missed it, but I don;t believe anyone called you a racist.:noid
this is why I responded
Originally posted by cpxxx
One other thing, downplaying the achievements of those guys is a little bit racist. Their efforts speak for themselves and like the black riflemen in the infantry they felt they had something to prove and so fought harder than many an equivalent white unit.
On another matter.
Studies have been done that showed Black riflement didnt perform any better. or any worse then their white counterparts.
the idea that because they were black, they had more to prove and thus did better. Is bunk.
There are indeed accounts of Black soldeirs being pretty damn brave.
and distingushed themselves greatly
there are also accounts of black soldiers who didnt do so well.
Just like the white and every other race of soldier in the war.
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My only concern is that whole overcoming racism aspect will leave less time for dogfight footage.
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During one of the recent airings of the movie "The Tuskegee Airmen" on the history channel, the host asked a couple of the former pilots to be his guests and offer commentary on the film.
When asked about their remarkable record of never losing a bomber to enemy fighters one of the airmen stated that it was a result of the tactics used. Their unit was committed to close escort, as opposed to the "search and destroy" free ranging tactics used by other USAAF fighter units operating in Europe. The "search and destroy" tactics had been adopted in an attempt to hunt down German fighters wherever they might me found and annihilate them. This often necessitated operating at greater distances from the bombers, which consequently suffered more losses.
There is little to be gained by touting the supposed superiority of either type of tactic over the other. Merit can be found in either. Nevertheless, the free-ranging tactics undoubtedly helped to eliminate the German fighter force as an effective weapon, which was, ultimately, the goal of the American figher force. The Luftwaffe was a broken reed by the summer of 1944 and could do little to hinder the Normandy landings or the subsequent drive by the Allies to the German border. A strict adherence to close escort might not have yielded the same results.
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Here is the movie ,coming soon all this UFO models !
www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/IL-2/IL-2_1946_x.zip (http://www.simhq.com/_downloads/air/IL-2/IL-2_1946_x.zip)
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so how many did they shoot down? cpxx says 111... so they must have had a lot of aces then?
lazs
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Originally posted by Thrawn
My only concern is that whole overcoming racism aspect will leave less time for dogfight footage.
It will be just about the racism aspect, what have you expected?
Watching this thread shows its still about "i'm better then you" or
"You are not better then me"
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seems like there is a new Red Baron movie OTW too
http://imdb.com/title/tt0365675/
kewl:) :) :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :cool: :cool:
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Look bluntly, I am a little bit racist. We all are, to be honest. Drediock is correct. The 'red tails' were in truth that little bit better than the average pilot of WW2. It is quite arguable that the very prejudice that kept them out of the war for so long prepared them better when the time came. If that means anything, it means they were not better or worse than anyone else. Colour is irelevant. That doesn't mean what they did to get themselves into the cockpit of a P51 is any less impressive than it is. Given the times they lived in and the difficultly in getting into a fighter cockpit, white or black. They had to be good. They were good. It wasn't acknowledged much at the time. Finally now it is.
But this I don't believe. the idea that because they were black, they had more to prove and thus did better. Is bunk.
From my own personal experience. I know you will try harder to make a point. I don't expect you to understand. But sometimes, it is not necessary to prove it to others, but simply yourself. Sometimes racism or prejudice works both ways. You try harder or fight harder to make the point. 'I am better than you think I am' I am better than I think I am .
Shuckins may be correct, indeed probably is correct. But the 'red tails' had a point to make. Their job was to protect bombers. To do otherwise was to invite criticism. They didn't have the flexibility of other groups. They would be judged by a special standard and they knew it.
Since then I hope we have moved on. Colour is irrelevant in the context of combat.
Training, motivation and all the rest is what's important. Anyone who has served in a military unit knows that.
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anyone ever read Red Tail Captured, Red Tail Free?
i saw it at teh b00x store, but flinched at the $20 price
was i wrong?
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I'd love to see a well done movie about several of the landmark battles of WW2.
The slaughter of Hoth's panzers outside Kursk .. the attempted releif of Stalingrad .. 'Black Thursday' - the raid on Schweinfurt ..or Regensburg ..or one of the big night raids the Brits and their Lancasters pulled off.
There were so many great battles, and we are just now into the technology (aka CGI) to be able to show a bit of what it was like if done correctly.
As for scope .. can be a battle, one man's career, a unit's roughest days, ..there are so many choices and formats to tell a decent story of what happened.
-GE
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And the training time for the german pilots was way down
Adolf Galland was known for training the pilots below him whilst in the air and in combat.And was known as one of the best " in the field " trainers in the Lufftwaffe.
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/6300185192.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056620623_.jpg)
made in 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/Wake-Island-Movie-John-Farrow/dp/6300185192). All the old movies should be redone with today's cinema technology
Agreed - shouldn't be that hard these days
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/6300185192.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056620623_.jpg)
made in 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/Wake-Island-Movie-John-Farrow/dp/6300185192). All the old movies should be redone with today's cinema technology
Agreed - shouldn't be that hard these days
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/6300185192.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056620623_.jpg)
made in 1942 (http://www.amazon.com/Wake-Island-Movie-John-Farrow/dp/6300185192).
Did they loose that battle? 5 guys manning a single .30cal MG, 3 of which are just watching the sky.
There's a lot of old WWII movies that could be remade, but if the only reason we want to see it done is for modern CGI and better looking dogfights, then we're really not paying tribute to the veterens.
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so how many aces did the red tails have?
lazs
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it would seem they had no aces
99th Fighter Sqn
Edward L. Toppins, 4
Charles B. Hall, 3
Leonard M. Jackson, 3
Clarence W. Allen, 0.5
Willie Ashley, Jr., 1
Charles P. Bailey, 1
Howard L. Baugh, 1
Thomas P. Braswell, 1
William A. Campbell, 1
John W. Davis, 1
Lemuel L. Curtis, 1
Robert W. Dier, 2
Elwood T. Driver, 1
Wilson V. Eagleson, 2
James L. Hall, 1
Clinton B. Mills, 1
Daniel L. Rich, 1
Leon C. Roberts, 1
Lewis C. Smith, 1
Hugh J. White, 1
100th Fighter Sqn
Raul W. Bell, 1
Charles V. Brantley, 1
John F. Briggs, 1
Roscoe C. Browne, 2
Richard W. Hall, 1
Jack D. Hosclaw, 2
Carl E. Johnson, 1
Langdon E. Johnson, 1
Earl R. Lane, 2
Clarence D. Lester, 2
John H. Lyle, 1
Walter J.A. Palmer, 1
George M. Rhodes, Jr., 1
Robert W. Williams, 2
Bertram W. Wilson, Jr. 1
301st Fighter Sqn
Joseph D. Elsberry, 3
Carl E. Corey, 2
John E. Edwards, 2
James H. Fischer, 1
Frederick D. Funderburg, 2
Alfred M. Gorham, 2
Claude Govan, 1
Thomas W. Jefferson, 2
Jimmy Lanham, 2
Armour G. McDaniel, 1
Walter P. Manning, 1
Harold M. Morris, 1
William S. Price, III, 1
Harold E. Sawyer, 1
Harry T. Stewart, 2
Charles L. White, 2
302nd Fighter Sqn
Lee A. Archer, 4.5
Wendell O. Pruitt, 3
Roger Romaine, 3
Milton P. Brooks, 1
Charles W. Bussey, 1
Edward C. Gleed, 2
William W. Green, Jr., 2
Weldon K. Groves, 1
William L. Hill, 1
Freddie F. Hutchins, 1
Melvin T. Jackson, 1
Felix J. Kirkpatrick, 1
Charles E. McGee, 1
Luther H. Smith, Jr., 2
Robert H. Smith, 2
William H. Thomas, 1
Hugh S. Warner, 1
Luke J. Weather, Jr., 2
Laurence D. Wilkins, 1
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http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_tusk.html
A week later the 332nd escorted bombers on a mission against railyards, and Capt. Joseph Elsberry shot down three Fw-190s, the first black pilot to achieve this feat. The next day, July 13, the Group flew its first mission to Ploesti. On the 16th, they met some Italian Macchis (from Mussolini's short-lived, rump state in the North, the Italian Social Republic), and downed two of them. Two days later, July 18, Lt. Clarence 'Lucky' Lester destroyed three German airplanes, and earned a DFC for himself in recognition. This was a big day for the Group, as they claimed 11 e/a destroyed. Lee Archer scored his first that day; a credit which would later be officially changed to a shared kill. (Thus Archer left combat with an official 4.5 kills. It has been speculated that the AAF brass didn't want a Negro ace and the attendant publicity.)
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Shuckins may be correct, indeed probably is correct. But the 'red tails' had a point to make. Their job was to protect bombers. To do otherwise was to invite criticism. They didn't have the flexibility of other groups. They would be judged by a special standard and they knew it.
Despite their achievements and accomplishments, the 99th found continued resistance and prejudice here in the Mediterranean. The CO of the 33rd Fighter Group, Col. William Momyer, complained about the performance of the 99th FS, compared their combat record to White squadrons, alluded to lack of air discipline, and hinted at a lack of aggressiveness. His comparisons overlooked the fact that the 99th did not operate at the front, but was stationed hundreds of miles to the rear. Nor did he mention his exclusion of 99th FS pilots from briefing sessions. But in those days, Blacks were easy targets, and in September of 1943, TIME magazine ran an article that repeated Momyer's accusations. About all the pilots could do was perform their jobs perfectly, and answer their critics with deeds, not words.
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http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/tuskegee/AP26.htm
The Airmen continued to cover the Allied invasion of Italy. But they did not have another confirmed kill until the following January, a statistic that upset Colonel Momyer, who reported in September that the 99th lacked discipline, teamwork, and "the aggressiveness and daring for combat that are necessary to be a first class fighting organization." U.S. Army Air Force (USAAF) Chief General Henry "Hap" Arnold investigated the criticisms and found that the 99th had been assigned far from the invasion front, well away from enemy aircraft. It was also a new and inexperienced unit, led by equally inexperienced commanders, unlike novice white flyers who could rely on the experience of veteran leaders. Debate over Momyer’s criticism ended in March 1944 when the USAAF Statistical Control Division reported that from August 1943 to January 1944, the Airmen performed as well as the other P-40 squadrons in the area. Arnold allowed the matter to drop.
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Now. The fact that they didnt have any "officially" recorded aces Does NOT take away from their accomplishments of never having lost a bomber.
The spread out numbers of kills among he pilots, as well as their escort accomplishments in my mind points to and makes my point.
They were well diciplined andworked well together as a team.
To be that well diciplined and work that well together as a team was a direct result of the added training
Now this idea that "because they had something to prove" makes for great propoganda. And maybe the commanding officers used this as a motivational tool during training just like any good coach will try to use something for his team to rally around.
The old "us against the world" method immediately comes to mind
But in combat when the watermelon hits the fan. Accomplishing the mission is where the training and dicipline kicks in.
But all those ideals about proving something to those outside of your immediate area surrounding you go out the window.
Your main thought is of keeping yourself and your those around you alive.
And the only ones your even remotely interested in proving anything to is the people on your side in the immediate area.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Now. The fact that they didnt have any "officially" recorded aces Does NOT take away from their accomplishments of never having lost a bomber.
I agree
The spread out numbers of kills among he pilots, as well as their escort accomplishments in my mind points to and makes my point.
They were well diciplined andworked well together as a team.
I also agree
Now this idea that "because they had something to prove" makes for great propoganda. And maybe the commanding officers used this as a motivational tool during training just like any good coach will try to use something for his team to rally around.
The old "us against the world" method immediately comes to mind
on this part I disagree
Because they were black, because they werent accepted, because as noted in the material I posted
compared their combat record to White squadrons, alluded to lack of air discipline, and hinted at a lack of aggressiveness.
they had to do it better than anybody else, anything else would have given ammunition for those that were against the formation of their group. There were people just looking for them to screw it up.
I surmize they never received any better training than white pilots. It wasnt until they were assigned to the 79th FG they got the training they needed to be sucessful
In October 1943, the 99th was assigned to Colonel Earl Bates’ 79th Fighter Group that was supporting the invasion of Italy. Bates considered his new unit part of his team, a fact supported by an observer from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), who reported "total obliteration of consciousness of differences of skin color among both white and Negro fliers of the 79th Group." Squadrons were mixed for combat and training missions. The 99th gained experience and confidence. And on January 27, 1944, the unit had its second kill in support of the Army’s amphibious landings at Anzio, the first landing in Italy. It boasted eight kills that day and soon the victories began to mount.
I think a part of their sucess was their leadership
It established a reputation for protecting its bombers. The pilots always followed Col. Davis’ orders: "Your job is to protect the bombers and not chase enemy aircraft for personal glory." The Germans called the 332nd Schwartze Vogrl Menshen (black birdmen) and began to fear seeing a plane with its distinctive red tail—the mark of the Airmen.
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Actually, I think what would make a great movie, is a luftwaffe based story, done ala Das Boot style. now that would kick butt. How the Germans over came all the internal and external challenges and crushed the western theater for so many years.:aok
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Lt. Col Charles McGee told me about the Fw180 he shot down, rolling and weaving in a valley somewhere, fired a lead shot to the left of the Fw, who rolled into the bullet stream. He guessed he hit the pilot or a control feeature becasue the plane immediately rolled into the hills. Over our 3+ hours together he shared a lot of his story with me, and not once did he mention the ****storm he went through to get to Europe.
He flew 407 total missions through the Vietnam War.
That's probably 407 more than anyone on these boards has flown, BTW :D
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FW180?
Typo for 190?
Tronsky
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Ok.. so they woulda had an ace but the man kept em down.
I have read the stories of dozens of aces and most did not get a kill or two they thought they deserved. it happened.
I am not saying that they were not good pilots but it was the end of the war and they were flying about the best plane available with good numbers against a rapidly declining level of compentency in the LW.
I have never read much about the red tails because frankly...
the racial stuff that most authors put into it bores and angers me... I am not interested in that stuff.
I believe that all that stuff diminishes the accomplishments of those brave pilots. I am glad to hear that in person they don't play the boring race card. I have allways enjoyed talking to real WWII fighter pilots but never talked to a red tail.
lazs
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the racial stuff that most authors put into it bores and angers me... I am not interested in that stuff.
Most people these days do not want to hear the truth, but that is really how they were treated.
Can you even fathom what it's like to be treated like that just because of your color? the answer is no you can't even imagine it.
At that time period most black men in the military were kept in less active rolls like cook or secratary, so for these pilots to achieve what they did is one of the greatest feats any of us will over know.I have met some of those pilots who flew the red tailed Mustang and they are some of the finest men i will have met.
I was watching Legends of Airpower the other night and till then i had not known a lot about a group of Women pilots called the WASPS or what they had done.They were women pilots who flew the planes the men fought in from the factory to the embark point.38 of those women died in transit and they were not even given military burials.Thier family's were not allowed to hang a GOLD STAR in the window.They had to pay thier own way for everything, but yet they risked everything to get the job done working 7 days a week.It wasn't until 1977 after many years of lobbying that they were given what was due to them.
So think about what some americans had to overcome and how far we have come as a society and how we treat others because honestly all of us should feel damn lucky those types of people were on are side.
The Biggest of SALUTES to the MEN & WOMEN who helped keep the blanket of FREEDOM right where it belongs.
:aok :aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
so how many aces did the red tails have?
lazs
Not sure what you are asking this for Lazs? 350th FG flying 39s, then Jugs with the 12th AF in Italy had no Aces, but they had the only MTO Medal of Honer winner in a fighter. They got replacement 'hand me down' P39s from the 332nd. They'd also been over there since 42.
Aces were more determined by the role the Group was playing then anything else I think. That and time in combat. 359th FG with the 8th flew Jugs and 51s. Their CO was much like Ben Davis of the 332nd. Stay with the bombers, don't go chasing LW fighters at the expense of this. He had less aces as well but they did their job.
I'm seeing folks suggest that the caliber of pilot they faced was less. Well that applies to any USAAF pilots flying in 44 on I'd think. So does that diminish the Aces the 8th AF turned out or the 9th? The 15th AF sure had their share too.
Does that mean I want Lucas to do another Red Tail movie? I guess I'm neither here nor there about it.
I'd rather see something like "Serenade to the big bird" get done since that book by B17 Co-pilot Bert Stiles is such a classic and written at the time so it has the feel of the time in it so well.
But I have little faith in Hollywood to do such a book accurately. Look how they butchered Memphis Belle, and that was done by Wyler's kid.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok.. so they woulda had an ace but the man kept em down.
If thats how you want to read it, Ok. But 1940's thats probably right.
I have read the stories of dozens of aces and most did not get a kill or two they thought they deserved. it happened.
thats true, all sides
I am not saying that they were not good pilots but it was the end of the war and they were flying about the best plane available with good numbers against a rapidly declining level of compentency in the LW.
I wouldnt say Oct 1943 was the end of the war. and for at least the first 6-8 months of the squadrons assignment in North Africa and Italy they flew P-40s, not excatly the best plane available. I cant comment specificly on LW's compentency from Oct 1943 till the end of the war but I recall reading something not to long ago that they started have issues with pilot training after spring or summer of 44.
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301st Fighter Sqn
Frederick D. Funderburg, 2
He is the uncle to a co-worker of mine
Frederick was shot down and killed over Italy
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/301st.jpg)
all of them
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
[
Can you even fathom what it's like to be treated like that just because of your color? the answer is no you can't even imagine it.
Yea I do.
And you can add because of name to that too.
Back in the late 60s and 70s the town I lived in was known at the time as "little harlem"
the bulk of which were made up of Black and Puerto Rican. At least in the schools
My first day of school there in the 4th grade I was one of 3 white kids in my class and one of those was a girl (Talk about a minority) and it only got slightly better as the years progressed
Weekly race riots at the schools back then was the norm.
and it wasnt just at the highschool level either. It trickeled down to the middle and elementary level as well
Now while I am a mix of several nationalities. when I was growing up I was basically a white boy with a spanish last name.
which at that time lemme tell ya. didnt go over well with anyone.
Blacks didnt like me and wanted to fight me cause I was white.
Puerto Ricans didnt like me and wanted to fight me cause I was white.
And Whites wanted to fight me caus ethey thought I was Puerto Rican
Forget the fact that if you broke it down into percentages Im mostly German and Irish. It was the last name "Mendez" that did me in.
Inside the first two weeks alone I was there in the 4th grade I was in 6 fights I didnt start. All because of one of the reasons mentioned above.
and so it proceeded year after year, Grade after grade.
I made some friends yes. but those that didnt know me or only knew me by name. Forgeddaboutit.
Growing up I've been attacked more and been in more fights then a whole bunch of people can count on their hands and toes combined.
98% of which were for no other reason then I was white. or because of my last name.
I've been ganged up on,attacked with rocks,bottles,knives and even had a throwing star thrown at me once.
I've had so many friggen guns pointed in my face it no longer scares me. (which in itself is pretty scary)
Its only by some miracle or freakish twist of fate Im alive and relitively unscathed to talk about it. Or that I myself havent killed anyone out of survival
Now thats not a boast or brag. It is just how it was.
I've had girlfriends have to break up with me cause their brothers,family,friends didnt want them "going out with a spic"
and as I know I have mentioned before on this board I've been turned down for jobs because of my name. in one instance I was told after an interview. "You seem like a great guy and If it were up to me I'd hire you right now. But I dont want you have any false hopes. The owner wont hire you because he doesnt like Puerto Ricans"
I said. "But Im not Puerto Rican. and Im mostly German and Irish."
He said "it doesnt matter. You have the Spanish last name and thats all he needs to see"
Other times with people Even today though rare I sometimes see it.
Everything is cool till they hear the last name. then they kinda distance themselves from you to the point where you feel like an outsider.
Oh its nothing overt. But when you have dealt with it all your life you can recognise it when you see it
Thing is I never let that stop me from anything. I never let it be an excuse or cop out of being "held down". And like it or not thats just what it is. A cop out.
I always said. and say Fuggum
No matter how bad things have gotten in my life. and beleive me there was a time they were worse then just racism
I just kept getting up dusting myself off pulled my bootstraps up and kept going just as I do now.
And I did something with my life.
I may not have alot. I dont own a multimillion dollar company and sometimes times are real hard. But what I have is mine and I got it myself
Not because of my race or even in spite of it.
But because I, ME willed it so
And I did it without the handout of any government programs. Or equally racist cutsie little organizations set up specifically for my race or nationality. Or any organization set up for anything for that matter.
Race or no race. I dug it out with my own bare hands and sweat off my brow.
Sorry but I DO know what its like. I just choose to not use it as a crutch or an excuse. or reason.
Now I might be able to be lectured or have things explained to them on a great many subjects.
Racism isnt one of them
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I really hope that Lucas aint directing or writing it. :)
Also this came from mouth of Lucas himself about three weeks ago:
(About Lucasfilm) "We don't want to make movies. We're about to get into television. As far as Lucasfilm is concerned, we've moved away from the feature film thing, because it's too expensive and it's too risky. I think the secret to the future is quantity. Because that's where it's going to end up."
As he is making those Star Wars animated tv-series etc so it makes sense, kind of.
And then he said about Indy 4: "Steve (Spielberg) and I are still working away, trying to come up with something we're happy with. Hopefully in a short time we will come to an agreement. Or something".
So oh boy, that sure is a far cry from the "We're done!" and "We'll start filming soon" garbage we've been hearing past two years isn't it? Lucas film is moving into TV, Spielberg and Lucas can't even agree on a script let alone anything else, Spielberg keeps filling up his schedule and Lucas has those new Star Wars TV shows he's developing... and Harrison Ford is 64 years old...
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If it has a lot of racial stuff in it I probly won't go see it.
lazs
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just read this in an AP story in teh 'tard.nets
"Ex-Pilot Confirms Bomber Loss
Flier Shot Down in 1944 Was Escorted by Tuskegee Airmen
....Warren Ludlum, who lives in Old Tappan, N.J., said that his B-24 bomber was shot down by enemy planes over Linz, Austria, in July 1944, while he was being escorted by P-51 fighters piloted by the Tuskegee Airmen...."
NOES!!!!:cry :cry :O
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Historians dispute Tuskegee Airmen's perfect record
By Alvin Benn Montgomery Advertiser
MONTGOMERY, Ala. — The hallmark of the Tuskegee Airmen success story has been that America's first black fighter pilots never lost a bomber to enemy aircraft during World War II escort missions. Two historians say that's a myth.
Daniel Haulman of Montgomery and William Holton of Columbia, Md., have released documents showing several U.S. bombers were downed by German planes during some Tuskegee Airmen protective flights.
Excerpted...complete USA Today article here. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-10-tuskegee-airmen_x.htm?csp=34)
Still a very good record.
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how many red tail kills were HO's? and how many times did the red tails give a
on CH 200 after a kill? huh huh.
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will darth vader be co-piloting sidous's foker tri-plane?
:lol
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I just hope he doesnt direct anything, ever again....
Word. Lucas should stick to writing checks and editing.
-Sik