Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: agent 009 on November 17, 2005, 08:54:33 PM
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437 mph. Outclimb Mustang, but what about altitude performance? Not C model, D model which only one was produced.
Also interested in wing loading in 63 D & Mustang D.
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http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/p39d.htm
That's from Warbirds, which had the P39 modeled. some interesting info.
EDIT: also check out:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p39.htm
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Originally posted by agent 009
437 mph. Outclimb Mustang, but what about altitude performance? Not C model, D model which only one was produced.
Also interested in wing loading in 63 D & Mustang D.
Ah, the P-63..... Possibly the best low-level fighter of the war. Below 15,000 feet the P-63 (any version) handily beat the P-51D in every measure of performance. It wasn't as fast up high and lacked the range to have any chance of being adopted for full service. About 410 mph at 25,000 feet. However, in WEP, wet, it could do better than 378 mph at sea level and around 422 mph at around 16,000 feet (virtually a dead heat with the Tempest Mk.V). Climb rate, again with WEP and water injection (wet) was tremendous. Time required to climb to 10,000 feet was just 1.8 minutes... Wing loading was about 15% less than the P-51D. Both had laminar flow wing designs, but the P-63 had more wing area (248 sq/ft vs 233 sq/ft) and weighed about 1,000 lbs less. See Dean's America's Hundred Thousand for performance charts. Consider it the American La-7....
My regards,
Widewing
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I get the impression that range could have been vastly increased with DTs on the 3 hard points adding enough gas for about 2 hours at mil power
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No don't add anything that challanges the uberness of the p38.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Ah, the P-63..... Possibly the best low-level fighter of the war. Below 15,000 feet the P-63 (any version) handily beat the P-51D in every measure of performance. It wasn't as fast up high and lacked the range to have any chance of being adopted for full service. About 410 mph at 25,000 feet. However, in WEP, wet, it could do better than 378 mph at sea level and around 422 mph at around 16,000 feet (virtually a dead heat with the Tempest Mk.V). Climb rate, again with WEP and water injection (wet) was tremendous. Time required to climb to 10,000 feet was just 1.8 minutes... Wing loading was about 15% less than the P-51D. Both had laminar flow wing designs, but the P-63 had more wing area (248 sq/ft vs 233 sq/ft) and weighed about 1,000 lbs less. See Dean's America's Hundred Thousand for performance charts. Consider it the American La-7....
My regards,
Widewing
Interesting note - the russians were preparing the 63's to combat americans after the fall of berlin.
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The P-63D was also the only model to pack the 37mm M9 gun, which was a high-velocity piece, far more powerful than the usual M4 and M10.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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P-63A 37 mm std, V-1710-93 1325 HP -- 1725 built
P-63B 37 mm std, Merlin Variant -- only prototype
P-63C 37 mm std, V-1710-117 1500 HP -- 1227 built
P-63D 37 mm std, V-1710-109 1425 HP - sliding canopy -- 1 built
P-63E 37 mm std, V-1710-109 1425 HP -- Car door 13 built
P-63F 37 mm std, V-1710-135 1425 HP -- 2 built
RP-63F, -- 442 built Target plane
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Thanks Tony. Now how bout altitude performance for D model? was it better than C?
& was new cannon good for tankbusting?
& most importantly, when did the D fly? Could it have been available in numbers spring 44?
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Originally posted by agent 009
& was new cannon good for tankbusting?
Yes, the 37mm M9 would have been very good for tankbusting: it developed more muzzle energy than either the Bk 3,7 used in the Ju 87G or the NS-37 used in the Yak-9T and Il-2 3M. See: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm for more details.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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One wonders how the 109 would have handled with the P-63's laminar flow wings. which were lighter than Mustang's.
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I could be mistaken (it's been a while). But the P63 is in Il2, right?
I always thought it was a dog. But then again, maybe it just didn't fit in with my fighting style.
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Well with just short of 3000 built its a plane I'd like to see in AH.
How much ammo did it carry for that 37mm?
Faster than a Pony down low and punch's harder than the yak9t. Me WANT!
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Originally posted by Ghosth
How much ammo did it carry for that 37mm?
The P-63A started with the same 37mm M4 cannon as the P-39 (37x145R ammo), with a 30-round magazine.
From the P-63A-9 onwards (IIRC) the gun was switched to the 37mm M10, which was the same as the M4 except belt-fed and slightly faster-firing. It carried 58 rounds.
The single P-63D with the M9 cannon (37x223SR ammo) was belt-fed and carried 48 rounds.
TW
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Kingcobra.
One of the few mass produced WW2 aircraft remaining to be put into AH, - that being a MA-caliber. Definately one! The P39 could enter as well, almost on the same artwork and the tag would be...."BELL"?
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If any version of P-63 were to be added to AH, I'd hope for the P-63A as it was the model built in the largest quantity and was the only model delivered to the USSR in decent numbers before the end of 1944. The P-63D was a one-off freak.
It's somewhat unclear as to how much use the P-63's actually had in Soviet service. This is likely why the plane hasn't yet been added to AH.
J_A_B
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Along with the B-25, the P-39/400 and the P-63 are the only US planes I would like to see added. I'd even be OK without the P-63, since the P-39 played such an important part is some areas in the early part of the war.
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Grits,
Add the TBD Devastator to your list. We need some early war, sucky US stuff. A Finnish and US/RAF/Dutch version of the Brewster wouldn't be bad either.
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Just a side thought Tony, but why was the 37mm cannon popular vs another large caliber round? Did it have the best performance vs round/gun size or weight?
Sorry about the hijack :)
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I wouldnt be against the TBD but we dont really need it, afterall it only served in two battles. Sure they were both monumental battles, Coral Sea and Midway, but we can do without the TBD.
Same with the Brewster, I am not against it, I'd like to see it actually, but we dont really have to have it.
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Um, there is rumor & some eyewitness accounts of P-63's fighting over Berlin. Even a book written by a Russian pilot in 60's mentioning this.
Not numerous like other fighters, but interesting sidebar.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Just a side thought Tony, but why was the 37mm cannon popular vs another large caliber round? Did it have the best performance vs round/gun size or weight?
The reason for the popularity of the 37mm calibre goes back to the 19th century. An international agreement - the St Petersburg Declaration - banned the use of explosive shells which weighed less than 400g. At that time, the best calibre for that weight of shell was 37mm, so that was adopted by Hotchkiss and subsequently Maxim (for the Pom-pom); their guns were sold in large numbers.
The agreement fell apart in WW1 and was almost entirely ignored thereafter (the last remnant apparently being the USN's 1.1 inch AA gun of the 1930s - its curious calibre had a shell weighing 416g). But with lots of production lines set up to make 37mm barrels and ammunition, if you wanted a gun of around that size it was easier to stick to that calibre. Vickers and Bofors with their 2 pdr / 40mm guns were the main ones to break away.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Thanks Tony, I was thinking it had to have something more to do with something like that rather than a random number they picked out of the air :)
Were explosive shells that weighed less than 400 grams bad juju? Or did they not want explosive rifle rounds?
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explosive rifle rounds or anything similar were it exactly! I recall banning small explosive rounds came as part of the same drive to ban fragmenting (or 'Dum Dum") bullets and to mandate full metal jackets as part of various Geneva and Hague conventions. This was to minimize wounds that inflicted damage above and beyond merely incapaciting the victim.
In that sense, 'Dum Dum' was indeed bad 'ju ju'
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Originally posted by agent 009
Um, there is rumor & some eyewitness accounts of P-63's fighting over Berlin. Even a book written by a Russian pilot in 60's mentioning this.
Not numerous like other fighters, but interesting sidebar.
Seems like we discussed this before. Widewing had some info on the possible use on the Eastern front.
Otherwise they only saw the briefest of action, if any at the end against Japan.
Good book to track down is "Cobras over the Tundra" by Everett Long, covering the deliveries of 39s and 63s to Russia. Lots of good images.
The other good book is "Cobra!" by Birch Matthews. Everything you'd want to know about 39 and 63 development and use.
Go with the C. The Russians had a thing for the added strake under the tail that aided stability.
Russians recieved 4,924 P39s and 2,421 P63s.
I grew up near Crystal Airport in Minnesota, where Jack Sandberg had Tipsy Miss, his racing P63. Got to see and hear that bird going over the house often, so I have a bit of a soft spot for the old KingCobra
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/P63CProfileUSSRWP.jpg)
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I did some digging before on this, only combat I think the P-63s did was against Japan. I have a book on P-39 Aces and Soviet Aces, and could find no confirmation of P-63s "in combat" on the East Front before the war ended, only some sorties against the Japanese in August of 1945.
The P-39Qs were used prolifically on the East Front, and im sure any seen over Berlin were likely those.
I have seen nothing definitive yet on ETO combat for it, so far its rumours and anecdotal eye witness stuff, without confirmation of sources. The P-63 and P-39 look so similar, I really have my doubts about enemy combatants saying for sure they saw them, since flak gunners and pilots on both sides routinely misidentified fighters that had national insignia painted on them.
Colonel Pokryshkin was flying a P-39N in May 1945 "white 100", he was a 3 time winner of the Hero of the Soviet Union, the second highest Russian ace of the war, and had 59 kills, yet he isnt equipped with a P-63? This is a high scoring Guards fighter unit. They got the best personnel, booze, accolades and lots of press, yet the new P-63 is kept from them? I dunno.
In fact, I can find no evidence any of the top VVS P-39 aces or Guards Fighter Rgts like 16 GIAP and 100 GIAP were flying P-63s at wars end, which is kinda odd. Surely if it was available they would have been equipped with it?
Its no accident that Colonel Kozedub was flying an LA-7 at wars end. He didnt need to ask special to get them for his unit.
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I remember reading somewhere that the commies looked down no small amount on VVS pilots going on about all the great planes they got from capiitalist running dogs & that is why we dont know too much about the P-63 is VVS service
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Ahhhh the P63 thats one i would love to see in AH .
I had the good fortune to be able to play with this one for about a week (I installed an autopilot in it) This one was originally a Russian bird and was raced at the Reno Air Races under "Tipsy Miss" for many years then had its wings clipped and was painted orange and raced under the new name of "What Price Speed" It was then restored and painted in its Russian paint scheme. Unfortunately it was lost in a crash in France in 1990. Watching this thing make a full power low level high speed pass right over our hanger still gives me goose bumps.:D Although they look a little awkward on the ground they are quite beautiful in the air. .... Check the link beside the photo to see it in its Russian paint....
Some History On this One
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/p63-444393.html (http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/p63-444393.html)(http://www.explicit-designz.net/freehost/files/18/what%20price%20speed.jpg)
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Well, they had no probs celebrating P-39 aces from 42-45, so I don't think that had much to do with it. I have never seen any evidence they tried to hide the fact they flew lots of western planes. Certainly lots of wartime photos taken, officially sanctioned im sure.
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http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an22.htm
This is a link to where i volunteer twice a month,has some good info.
More info:http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p63.htm