Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TequilaChaser on November 18, 2005, 02:02:28 PM
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Originally posted by Iceman24
I generally find it more helpful for ME anyways to just go to the DA as Shatzi said, theres always allot of good sticks in there fighting it out, any of which will help you out if you ask for it... When I first started getting serious about dogfighting, I went to the DA every night after playing in the MA for at least 45 minutes to an hour and I filmed everything so I could go back and look at the mistakes I made...
no offence meant here Iceman24, but one of the main reasons we can not get people to come to the TA and even ask for help is because every other thread you see on the help/training forum is if you want help lets go to the DA, hey you can get training in the DA,
hey there are alot of good sticks in the DA, go there and you will get help.
The thing is, the DA is for one thing, Dueling, that is it's sole purpose, but alot of people have imposed there ideas on what the DA is to be used for, so for the most part you have 9 or 10 Trainers showing up to Train and help people in the correct Training arena yet, hardly anyone goes there to get help or training.
We do get the ones that email us for 1 on 1 training, or if we catch someone on here asking for help, unless someone has spoken up already and said, hey lets go to the DA and I will help you.
my question is why must it be the DA? If you going to help or help train someone doesn't it seem logical to use the Training Arena for such a request?
How can we turn the TA into something useful if everyone else is driving all the players that need help away from the Training arena and to the Dueling Arena?
Do you help them by shooting them down or PWNing them over and over til they get it? or could you just help them in the Training Arena and avoid the kill them, blow them up and wait for them to re up in another plane just to kill them again? This does help, but it also at times can have a negative impact on certian individuals and can even drive some away from the game........
I would like to request those that do want to help others out and teach them or help train to use the appropriate Arena that HTC has set aside for this purpose, and leave the DA for the ones who must call each other out and duel to the Death or for the free for alls and dueling ladders , squad vs squad challenges etc....
:D
to help and train people does not mean to repeatedly PWN them ( read that as kill the baby seals repeatedly) until they get it figure out, don't train people or teach them by humiliating them during the time that you take to help them......that isn't helping, that isn't training, that is just being egotistical swollen melon head who needs to get their fix by swamping the less talented.......
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Let me chime in on thise, cause it was actually *me* that brought up going to the DA in that other thread.
I know what you mean TC. Me too wish that training arena was more a training place and less a hangout and fun fair for n00bs and vets alike.
But let me explain why i said DA in this case.
I cant tell how it is on US evenings. Im rarely on at those times since i fly European afternoons/nights.
I assumed that Eyleh was asking for some fairly advanced training. Its pretty hard to get that in the TA without 'making an appointment' with someone (traininer or otherwise) first. Id say 95% of the time i log in TA *I* am the one ending up 'training' someone, rather than getting advanced fighter training myself.
In the DA i have a lot more chances running across pilots that can (as you so aptly put it :)) PWN me. Usuallywhen they notice me doing something wrong they tell me what im doing wrong and i can try to avoid that mistake or try that move. I admit that usually requires a lot of dieing on my part. But is in no way 'clubbing a baby seal for ego'. I do learn a lot from it. And TA with damage off just has certain limits. You never know if the snapshot the 'trainer' got in wouldve killed you or if your evasive was effective enough to save you.
I know that as of lately the DA has been swamped by n00bs and not-so-n00bs that dont follow the unwritten rules and start their vulch and cherrypick fest there. Or that keep asking for help on takeoff. I usually send those requests for help to the TA, or go to TA with them if i know theres noone logged in. Cause thats what the TA is there for. To get people started.
Really advanced training in the TA is difficult, because of the lack of advanced trainers. I understand that covering 24/7 hours in the TA is not possible. And i also know its difficult to get the "good sticks" to just spend time there cause of the limitations (rules, damage). And im not saying that is impossible to get it in TA, but the DA is simply just a more likely place for that.
The DA is a place to go when you look for some duels. And learn from the duels (on an advanced level!). Its not like DA is a training place. Its more a learning by doing thing. Maybe get an advice here and there.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Let me chime in on thise, cause it was actually *me* that brought up going to the DA in that other thread.
I know what you mean TC. Me too wish that training arena was more a training place and less a hangout and fun fair for n00bs and vets alike.
But let me explain why i said DA in this case.
I cant tell how it is on US evenings. Im rarely on at those times since i fly European afternoons/nights.
*snipped the rest*.....
Schatzi, I was not and am not trying to single any individuals out, I made the statements because that is how I have always felt about it.
your original statement in the thread I took the quote from nor Iceman24's reply had anything to do with my posting this thread.
I understand the big time difference for some. I have even beared witness to the vulch festing, the ilicit vulgarity of what comes from the vulch festing in the DA.
I have read in this forum many times since 2000, that "I need help but noone is ever there in the TA", or "How come I can't find a trainer" or other things referencing the same.
Yet, for nearly the past 7 months or longer, just about any thread showing up in here will reference lets hook up in the DA, I am trying to continously improve on the Training aspect of Aces High, set aside the fact I have moved, took on a new job, aquired a few other real - life task, I am always thinking of how to improve the Training Corp of AH, working on different projects for the community. I posted this thread to ask you veteran pilots to try and start helping these people asking for help out in the TA, least until they have advanced along enough to move on to greener pastures. but even with saying that last line, I have flown flight sims for over 10 years, and dang near have been a part of some type of Training almost as long, and I can still learn new things my own self, and I can learn them in the Training arena no less.
I meant it very seriously when I posted that continously killing/shooting down certian individuals who have asked for help can lead to possibly driving them away from the game, or even cause them to take up a persona of being a smack talker because they were maybe driven to the point of that is all they have left,
these things are very rare and prob happen 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 100, but everyone deserves a chance to learn without humiliation.........and in my humble opinion if you do not humiliate your student he will gain alot more knowledge, not just the art of maneuvering a stick, but also the art of good etiquette and the right morals and or ethics........
I am simply requesting for the most part for the ones that really want to help and show someone how to do something, see if you can show them by using the Training Arena, instead of the Dueling Arena. unless you want the sense of the kill by seeing the guy you are showing how to do something, go BOOM!
Schatzi, I appreciate your comments and views/opinions.......that is what is needed to see where changes need to be made if that is the case, again Thanks :cool:
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Reading this thread got me thinking so you all better DUCK!!!
This is more a wish list item and will post it there soon after I post here.
I do think the lack of lethality does take away from the training somewhat.
However, I also completely understand the reason there is no lethality there and I wouldn't change that at all.
As an idea would this be possible. Have some way of tracking the damage that would have been inflicted and give the pilots some feedback.
You could have items show red/damaged in the Damage screen as they are hit but not effect the performance. Tie this together with the smoke so when a plane would reach that 'non-powered and controllable' flight or that shot to the pilots forehead his/her smoke would automatically come on. We could even add another color to signify a 'dead plane or pilot' color. This accumulated damage on the damage screen or the dead mans smoke could be reset with a keystroke or dot command.
I fear the needed programming would be too much given the focus on TOD which we all want on the fast track to completion. Also, knowing nothing of how the programming does damage, this might not even be possible without major changes which I'm sure HTC doesn't want to do. And 'doesn't want to do' is not a negative on them. Liken that remark to putting a fifth wheel on a car, why do it.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165025
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Well when people ask me to help (if i can) i take them to da..
Easyer that way.:aok
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there should be two seperate training arenas.
the current TA for the raw rookies who can't take off everytime. in this way only the people who could really improve from non-lethal training would use the TA.
But also a replica DA (or alotted section of the current DA) for the new players who can get a few kills, but know they are riding on luck rather than experience. for this level it is far more benificial to train agaisnt a single sparing partner repeatedly, in leathal settings.
there is not only one type of pilot that needs training.
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Yet, for nearly the past 7 months or longer, just about any thread showing up in here will reference lets hook up in the DA
Only a certain few know about this forum.
these things are very rare and prob happen 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 100,
It's a lot higher than that.
I try too spend a lot of my time in the TA helping the brand new pilots and the not so brand new pilots.For the Brand new pilots i show them the basics starting with communication,once they can communicate we go on from there.With more experienced pilots that have been playing about a year and are at a plateu that they cannot get off of ,i show them trim control and other tactix too improve.I play target for just about everybody,because this not only helps them but it helps me as well with my eluding tactix.
Too be truthful the trainer i have seen the most is fuzeman and widewing.
I have seen TC in the MA and other area's more than the TA,which is really not a factor for he isn't required to spend all his time in there,but he does have a point,the DA will prove nothing that the new pilot already didn't know.By having the lethality set at what it is allows you too run a certain setup with them,show them what they did wrong,then break apart walk off 10 paces and try again until they get it right.This is a much more helpful tool than some really know.
The only problem Schatzi really has is her situational awareness and the ability too see what the other person is going too do before they do it and counter what they are doing.We will work more on that at another time.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Too be truthful the trainer i have seen the most is fuzeman and widewing.
I have seen TC in the MA and other area's more than the TA,which is really not a factor for he isn't required to spend all his time in there,but he does have a point,the DA will prove nothing that the new pilot already didn't know.By having the lethality set at what it is allows you too run a certain setup with them,show them what they did wrong,then break apart walk off 10 paces and try again until they get it right.This is a much more helpful tool than some really know.
Heh.....glad ya got to even see me somewhere online there AutoPilot, I do not believe I have had the same pleasure of meeting you anywhere online yet. appreciate the help you give and thank goodness I am not the only one to see the way things are happening..........
do you have a previous username or gameid by chance? oh what the hay, it doesn't really matter :)
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
The only problem Schatzi really has is her situational awareness and the ability too see what the other person is going too do before they do it and counter what they are doing.We will work more on that at another time.
Whats your ingame ID? I wasnt aware (*no* pun intended!) wed been training.... Weve been fighting in TA or in DA?
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Only a certain few know about this forum.
It's a lot higher than that.
I try too spend a lot of my time in the TA helping the brand new pilots and the not so brand new pilots.For the Brand new pilots i show them the basics starting with communication,once they can communicate we go on from there.With more experienced pilots that have been playing about a year and are at a plateu that they cannot get off of ,i show them trim control and other tactix too improve.I play target for just about everybody,because this not only helps them but it helps me as well with my eluding tactix.
Too be truthful the trainer i have seen the most is fuzeman and widewing.
I have seen TC in the MA and other area's more than the TA,which is really not a factor for he isn't required to spend all his time in there,but he does have a point,the DA will prove nothing that the new pilot already didn't know.By having the lethality set at what it is allows you too run a certain setup with them,show them what they did wrong,then break apart walk off 10 paces and try again until they get it right.This is a much more helpful tool than some really know.
The only problem Schatzi really has is her situational awareness and the ability too see what the other person is going too do before they do it and counter what they are doing.We will work more on that at another time.
I don't really help people that are really really new i do sometimes on help ch. But i don't fly with them.
I pop into ta sometimes.
But thats not the point.
I don't take new people to da. Only people that have basic acm skills.
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Hmmm can't recall Mr AutoPilot either.
{ pun intended }
Guess we have to call him Mr 'X'
Get it? :) that is... if he's on the 'level' :D
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Thanks TC i really appreciate that.I am glad to help others in the TA for i have a way of getting across to them how to do things without getting technical and confusing them.
Since we are on the subject of the TA i have been noticing this for a while,lots of people come in there hang out for a while and are basically trying to get people to join thier squads in the MA so thier numbers look good.Now before you say how dare he make those accusations,i have talked too numerus people who have had this happen too them.The people that get them in thier squad dont care if they know anything or just plain don't show them anything.
The whole object of training them properly is too keep them paying for a subscription and i tell them that the subscription is well worth it.I tell them of the other arena's too play in,this BBS,etc,etc.
:aok
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Only a certain few know about this forum.
It's a lot higher than that.
Too be truthful the trainer i have seen the most is fuzeman and widewing.
You still beating that dead horse Ted?
Im there all the time and never see you.
Does that mean you dont try to help people?
Please stop with the veiled insults to those of us that give of our time to help others. Its unseemly and very teenage.
And if you are wondering where this comes from let me refresh your memory.
Help and Training forums
Thread : Becoming a Trainer
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Help and Training forums
Talk of beating a dead horse that post was never directed at you and yet you still think it was all about you.You should read the words not between the lines.
Im there all the time and never see you.
Does that mean you dont try to help people?
I never said they do not help people,once again read the words not between the lines.
I am usually in there during the day from 12 too 2 eastern and again in the evenings from 6 too 8,sometimes i am in there really late as well.
Seems like you got some deep seated issues Silat that you need to go and work on,and your no different than the dweebs in the other thread that made it look like i was chastizing you when in actuallity i wasn't.
If HT would get rid of the buddie system when it comes too who does what then this game would prolly be alot better.
Plenty of pilots have learned from my tutorial sessions from brandnew too experienced so you have never actually been around when i am doing my thing so really,how would you know anything about it?
The Trainer status was only wanted by me for the sole purpose of getting rid of the people who make it difficult for others too learn anything as they do this when none of the Regular trainers are around,and filming it just doesn't solve anything.Example,cussing,bombing A-1,shooting people without permission,just plain being an arse.
The pilots i work with are able too pick up what it is we are working on by showing them and telling them, in a way that they better understand and i dont have too send them any files.
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Lemme just pick up this thread and place it back on the track... ;)
Although I agree about the whole lethality/did I dodge well enough? argument, I'd have to say the time I've spent in the TA (admittedly, not enough) have been extremely helpful. The very fact that there is no lethality means that you can practice that scissor, get 6 crosses right, mess up on number 7, then do well again for 8-12, etc...
In the DA you get 6 crosses practiced and then you're nailed and have to climb out all over again.
Besides, with a good sound pack (I use Waffle's), you know darn well when you should be dead. And with a little experience, you know darn well when your sparring partner should be, too.
It really is quite amazing what a few ammo loads worth of time in the TA with a partner can do for you.
That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking someone to the DA once they know how to get there wheels up. So long as you're polite and truthfully encouraging (false encouragement always stinks), does it matter if you get shot down 50-60-70 times in a row if your killer's humble and explains how they did it?
It basically boils down to this... The people who are going to one day become dangerous are the ones who are willing to both:
1. Go to the TA.
2. Die repeatedly in the DA.
The people who aren't going to do so well are the ones who either feel they've been around "too long" or know "too much" to go into the TA (it CAN have a, erm, "tricycle connotation" to it that one must get past), and the ones who for whatever reason have an issue dying repeatedly in the DA to someone better then them.
It's just like any sport. You get better by practice (TA) and playing with kids who are older and better then you (DA). Combine the two and you've got a pretty good shot.
Sorry for the long ramble, really have to stop posting right after work :)
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Thank You for the post, Vudak. and I concur with your post. Looking forward to seeing how far you have excelled :) go easy on me ;)
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Well said Vudak. You nailed it a lot better than i did.
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Both venue's have their place.
Yes there are some things you can really only be sure of if you've tried them with live ammo and someone who can shoot.
The majority of training is better off in the TA. I'm talking takeing someone from day one up through basic ability to fly & fight.
Face it, 95% of all that we learn we end up having to teach ourselfs anyway.
Yes we have people who help show us the way. But in the end it all comes down to
A Understanding the concepts involved.
B Stick time to hone reflexes and be able to do it all without thinking about it.
(When you see "this" you know you have to do "that" to counter)
High end training or 1 on 1 practise you can do anywhere.
TA, DA, CT, or main. It just takes some minor adjustment to methods.
That leaves us with the majority of training. People from day 1 to maybe 6 months. Here the TA shines, simply because you can squeeze more air time into each session. Without someone constantly having to replane because he got shot. You also have the advantage of being able to start out working with fuzeman or myself, and work your way up with several of the trainers.
Each of which has his own strenghts and insights to pass on.
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I've been on AH for about a year. Flew AW on an Amiga and a little bit on AOL. I also have had about 50 hours in a Cessna 150 in my younger days so I never had the how do I fly issues. I have always had a likeing for WWII aircraft and never got into jets.
The above is some background. That said I never was very good. As such, after getting my head handed to me in the MA I moved to primarily GVs and enjoyed myself in that role. Of late I have found myself uping fighters more and spending more time in the TA. Not so much working with the trainers as being a sparring partner for trainees who want to fight someone and with experienced players. I was pleasantly surprised how many experienced players show up in there as fighting them gives me a rule to measure myself against. It might be a short rule as I don't know most of them. I do know it usually doesn't take but a couple of turns to know that they know something.
The smoke idea I like. That would give you feedback if a killing shot was made for both the shooter and shootee especially on the deflection shots, some of which are made below the nose. The smoke would only have to last for 5 seconds or so to know you made a killing shot.
In my timezone it's usually Fuzeman or Ghosth that I see on and Fuze is there a lot. to both.
Fuze has offered to do some training with me the next time we meet and he is not trying go get somebody off the ground.
:D
Probably tonight if it's fairly quite in the TA.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
start out working with fuzeman or myself, and work your way up
Uhh...so...after training with you there is no where to go but up?:rofl
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The smoke idea I like.
Another good thing about smoke is if you have it on and are working with someone that is new and they need to be able too keep up with you and be able too see which way you are going the smoke gives them a head's up on that.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Fuze has offered to do some training with me the next time we meet and he is not trying go get somebody off the ground.
:D
Probably tonight if it's fairly quite in the TA.
Tuesday bad night for me, squad night so I'll be in the MA mostly.
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Originally posted by fuzeman
Tuesday bad night for me, squad night so I'll be in the MA mostly.
Tonight (Tuesday) was squad night for me too. But, the MA crashed, so I went to the TA.
I spent some time flying with LyeEL and he's learning fast... Give him a couple of tours and he'll be a real tough opponent.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks Widewing for covering. I had to log early from squad night to get up early for car inspection so I wasn't there for any MA crash.
The car failed inspection too , there was a tiny tear at one end of a wiper blade. Of course they would have sold me some nice $26 wiper blades but I passed and will buy some that aren't gold at an auto parts place.
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I like to help people, but Im not a trainer, so when I go and help them its in the DA 99.999% of the time. I feel like I am stepping on the trainers toes when I take someone to the TA to help them.
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I feel like I am stepping on the trainers toes when I take someone to the TA to help them.
They welcome it actually from what i have seen.Yesterday was training 3-4 at once,well answering questions,showing moves,etc.
Even if you get them to use thier mic or able to type messages and start down a runway that is helping alot.
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Unless your telling them Alt F4 is for extra power I think Trainers like the help.
Somedays your juggling a single ball, other days 5 or 6. Even if it's the mundane 'g is for landing gear' it helps.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Although I agree about the whole lethality/did I dodge well enough? argument, I'd have to say the time I've spent in the TA (admittedly, not enough) have been extremely helpful. The very fact that there is no lethality means that you can practice that scissor, get 6 crosses right, mess up on number 7, then do well again for 8-12, etc...
In the DA you get 6 crosses practiced and then you're nailed and have to climb out all over again.
Yep...im going to say those words again. "Airwarrior"
hehe AW had a nifty setting that addressed this problem. In training you could actually shot someone down with normal lethality, BUT! You didn’t have to restart. There was a message reporting that you were shot down...then you AC just came back to life. just like the offline drones. :D
I loved it.:aok
Have always wondered why HTC didnt make it an option in H2H or make it as a setting in the TA?
Heck...maybe it is an optional arena setting?
What was cool about it. Is the psychological effect it had. It was kinda middle of the road. You knew you blew it...but you didnt get out of the mood by having to re-up and climb out. HT...jut Do IT!
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Thank You for the post, Vudak. and I concur with your post. Looking forward to seeing how far you have excelled :) go easy on me ;)
Eh, I never really fly anymore, part-time school, full time work & girl, you know the drill :D
Maybe around the holidays though we could set up a time if you aren't traveling far. Knock some rust off and I'm sure I'd learn a new trick or two :aok
S!
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
If HT would get rid of the buddie system when it comes too who does what then this game would prolly be alot better.
Ok you must have seen the pictures of that weekend retreat where the buddie system got its start. I made quite a few buddies that weekend. But I dont remember much due to the vast amounts date rape drugs that were put in my drink.
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Just to put my 2 cents worth in. On the occasions that the MA is being nothing but a major furball, I go to the TA. If there are a few people in there, and the trainers seem busy, I will pitch in with advice or suggestions... basically try to help in anyway that I can. Eventually I would be interested in helping out in the TA. For now, I will just do what I can to help out .. basically all I wanted to say:D