Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on November 19, 2005, 03:23:07 AM
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Transcript:
The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public is way ahead of us. The United States and coalition troops have done all they can in Iraq, but it is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering. The future of our country is at risk. We can not continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interest of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf Region.
General Casey said in a September 2005 Hearing, “the perception of occupation in Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency.” General Abizaid said on the same date, “Reducing the size and visibility of the coalition forces in Iraq is a part of our counterinsurgency strategy.”
For 2 ½ years I have been concerned about the U.S. policy and the plan in Iraq. I have addressed my concerns with the Administration and the Pentagon and have spoken out in public about my concerns. The main reason for going to war has been discredited. A few days before the start of the war I was in Kuwait – the military drew a red line around Baghdad and said when U.S. forces cross that line they will be attacked by the Iraqis with Weapons of Mass Destruction – but the US forces said they were prepared. They had well trained forces with the appropriate protective gear.
We spend more money on Intelligence than all the countries in the world together, and more on Intelligence than most countries GDP. But the intelligence concerning Iraq was wrong. It is not a world intelligence failure. It is a U.S. intelligence failure and the way that intelligence was misused.
I have been visiting our wounded troops at Bethesda and Walter Reed hospitals almost every week since the beginning of the War. And what demoralizes them is going to war with not enough troops and equipment to make the transition to peace; the devastation caused by IEDs; being deployed to Iraq when their homes have been ravaged by hurricanes; being on their second or third deployment and leaving their families behind without a network of support.
The threat posed by terrorism is real, but we have other threats that cannot be ignored. We must be prepared to face all threats. The future of our military is at risk. Our military and their families are stretched thin. Many say that the Army is broken. Some of our troops are on their third deployment. Recruitment is down, even as our military has lowered its standards. Defense budgets are being cut. Personnel costs are skyrocketing, particularly in health care. Choices will have to be made. We can not allow promises we have made to our military families in terms of service benefits, in terms of their health care, to be negotiated away. Procurement programs that ensure our military dominance cannot be negotiated away. We must be prepared. The war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls at our bases in the U.S.
Much of our ground equipment is worn out and in need of either serious overhaul or replacement. George Washington said, “To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace.” We must rebuild our Army. Our deficit is growing out of control. The Director of the Congressional Budget Office recently admitted to being “terrified” about the budget deficit in the coming decades. This is the first prolonged war we have fought with three years of tax cuts, without full mobilization of American industry and without a draft. The burden of this war has not been shared equally; the military and their families are shouldering this burden.
Our military has been fighting a war in Iraq for over two and a half years. Our military has accomplished its mission and done its duty. Our military captured Saddam Hussein, and captured or killed his closest associates. But the war continues to intensify. Deaths and injuries are growing, with over 2,079 confirmed American deaths. Over 15,500 have been seriously injured and it is estimated that over 50,000 will suffer from battle fatigue. There have been reports of at least 30,000 Iraqi civilian deaths.
I just recently visited Anbar Province Iraq in order to assess the conditions on the ground. Last May 2005, as part of the Emergency Supplemental Spending Bill, the House included the Moran Amendment, which was accepted in Conference, and which required the Secretary of Defense to submit quarterly reports to Congress in order to more accurately measure stability and security in Iraq. We have now received two reports. I am disturbed by the findings in key indicator areas. Oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels. Our reconstruction efforts have been crippled by the security situation. Only $9 billion of the $18 billion appropriated for reconstruction has been spent. Unemployment remains at about 60 percent. Clean water is scarce. Only $500 million of the $2.2 billion appropriated for water projects has been spent. And most importantly, insurgent incidents have increased from about 150 per week to over 700 in the last year. Instead of attacks going down over time and with the addition of more troops, attacks have grown dramatically. Since the revelations at Abu Ghraib, American casualties have doubled. An annual State Department report in 2004 indicated a sharp increase in global terrorism.
I said over a year ago, and now the military and the Administration agrees, Iraq can not be won “militarily.” I said two years ago, the key to progress in Iraq is to Iraqitize, Internationalize and Energize. I believe the same today. But I have concluded that the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is impeding this progress.
Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency. They are united against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence. U.S. troops are the common enemy of the Sunnis, Saddamists and foreign jihadists. I believe with a U.S. troop redeployment, the Iraqi security forces will be incentivized to take control. A poll recently conducted shows that over 80% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, and about 45% of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified. I believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis.
I believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid December, the Iraqi people and the emerging government must be put on notice that the United States will immediately redeploy. All of Iraq must know that Iraq is free. Free from United States occupation. I believe this will send a signal to the Sunnis to join the political process for the good of a “free” Iraq.
My plan calls:
To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.
To create a quick reaction force in the region.
To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq
This war needs to be personalized. As I said before I have visited with the severely wounded of this war. They are suffering.
Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our OBLIGATION to speak out for them. That’s why I am speaking out.
Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It is time to bring them home.
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This guy has my attention for 2 reasons.. his qualifications and his record.
He's an unimpeachable witness to the policy and practice of armed conflict. He's also an unimpeachable witness to the policy and practice of politics. He's an enigma.. an honest politician. Before he was a politician he was a Marine Officer.. who better to interpet the actual situation on the ground in Iraq. If this guy sez our military mission is in deep deep doggie doo I'm far more likely to take his view as accurate than Rumsfeld's or Cheney's.
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I have to agree. We travel down to Ramstein often and it rips your heart out. I've gone into Iraq many times since this crap has started and I have to tell ya, it's time to bring these guys home. Troops are pulling 3-4 tours in Iraq per enlistment - how many vets on this board have done that? Not me.
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I agree with your opinion about this guy, Hangtime.
I keep returning to thought that Colin Powell was right. He tried vigorously to get Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld to justify the invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but became so frustrated at their agendas and convoluted thinking that he ended up saying to Cheney, "What are you, nuts?"
After the die was cast for invasion, he confronted them again about the dangers of not having an overwhelming force prepared to maintain stability and control after invasion. He vigorously opposed Rumsfeld's lean force plan.
If you put aside all the questions about the legitimacy of the invasion (from a common sense view, not 'legal' view) and just give them a 'pass' on it, you're still left with an incompetent prosecution of the action.
They've made a pig's breakfast of the whole thing. Not the military, the inept policymakers at the very top. It's bad policy, executed incompetently by people unfit for the offices.
I'm convinced history will not be kind to the Bush presidency. Richard Nixon must be smiling, wherever he is. I didn't like or trust Clinton during his terms, but his legacy is looking far better in retrospect than Bush's legacy is looking now.
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Frankly, I'd like Truman and Eisenhower back, please.
*sigh*
Eye-opening Factoid. The reconstituted Iraqi Army serves 3 weeks on, gets one week at home.
Bzzzzzzzzrrrrrrrtttttt.
Wrong Policy. Our kids are Targets. I've played that game. Personally. It truly sucks.
I support our troops on overseas deployment in harms way. I always have. I always will. There's no conditions to that support.
It's past time to bring 'em home.
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Thank you for this thread, and your opinions. I feel like I can breathe again. I took a wrong turn at Yeager's thread and wound up in East St Louis, I think. I knew I was right but just don't have the credibility you guys have.
I think I'd follow Murtha to Timbuktu, but wouldn't venture past my driveway behind Bush or Cheney.
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I was impressed by Murthas speeches, but why did he vote against the very thing he has been demanding?
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They weren't voting on what he had suggested, specifically. Compare the text of the resolution with Murtha's proposals and you'll se what a prank the House vote was.
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Deleted.
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We've seen politicans play politics with soldiers lives before. This is not a good situtation. Not at all. This is a sickening situation, getting worse every day. I'm no expert on the conditions over there.. I'm not a qualifed umpire in this game... I doubt any civilan soccer mom or family man is. I am however confident that Murtha is a heluva lot more qualified to call the game than the Administration is.
There is NO stopping the groundswell of indignation and protest that is arising in the general population here for this war, for whatever reasons what we Vietnam Vets predicted is coming to pass.. the insurgents will be bolstered by the anti-war sentiment here and will redouble their efforts to drive the death toll up. We have seen this exact pattern before.
The indigent population's factions are united in one regard only.. the Americans are Targets. Seen this before too. A minority indigent Pro-US faction cannot protect the flanks of an increasingly vulnerable US Occupation Force.
Time to go. Lets insure their new elections, tell 'em to get their house in order, then pack up our **** and get the hell out.
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Time to go. Lets insure their new elections, tell 'em to get their house in order, then pack up our **** and get the hell out.
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well hangtime, which is it?
Is it "Time to go?"
or is it "time to insure their new elections, tell 'em to get their house in order, then pack up our **** and get the hell out."
Because both can not be done now?
And as soon as we tell the people that are killing our soldiers what our plans for withdrawl are then we have failed.
The administration says we need to keep our soldiers in country until enough of the iraqi military can stand on its own. That time is coming, I hope it is...but to do what you and murtha appear to want so badly is a diagnosis of wussification, its sad and pathetic.
Everyone knows that huge mistakes have been made, hell...the people running the show said as much at the start of the war. Bad things that we cant even imagine will happen in war but without the resolve to win nothing is possible and we resolve to win.
Well most of us have resolve...ooh wait...something bad just happened.....some of us remain resolved....ooh wait....something we didnt think about just happened and it sucks.....well, a few of us are still resolved....oh here comes murtha...a demorat....a politician in the minority party sensing weakness on his opposing party! Nows the time to retreat! we have done all we can! the vice president is the vice torturer!
get real...
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Currently, using diplomatic means also constitutes diplomacy with those *******s who we kicked out in the first place.
And I'll be the first to say, "**** THAT!"
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You know, I've been on the fence on Iraq. Myself, not being a Vet (choose Edumacation instead), I sometimes feel that it is "not my place to talk". My Grandpa (deceased in 98) was a Marine (43-46) and my Pop was Army (60-63).
I'll ALWAYS still support the troops. They do the dirty work I suppose, while the politician's fumble about with grandstanding, etc. My pop has consistantly told me we never should have gone into Iraq, he agreed with Afghanistan, but not Iraq.
I was bitter about the "murtha uprising" because I thought "here we go with the politician's grandstanding." But no, I as a Non-Vet, believe it's time to pack our bags and let Iraq see if they can stand on their hind legs and fight back. We removed Saddam from power and that was the objective.
Hangtime, great post.
Karaya
PS - I'm sorry if my post pisses anyone off, it's not meant too.
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I dont think it was a great post. Its a post supporting, calling for retreat. Here we go again.....
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I'd like Truman and Eisenhower back, please.
I'd like to just add a bit here Hang. If you recall, or just look it up, I think you'll find that Eisenhower was the first to start us into the 'Nam slide. At the time he wanted to start sending aid and later advisors (not many but he did send some) he was told by the Joint Chiefs of Staff that we had no strategic interests in the area and did not belong there. He over rode their concern (his prerogitive ac CIC) and we went in anyhow.
I got this from On Strategy and Tactics (there was more to the title but after almost 20 years I can't recall it all) I believe by SLA Marshal. It was on the reading list for Command and General Staff College. The instructor we had at the time was my former Bn. Commander. He was so impressed with it that he paid out of his pocket to rent the volume on tape for his 15 students that phase of C&GS.
Another point in the course I recall was an interview with Gen. Giap. The crux of it was that he was told "You know you never beat us on the battlefield" He replied, "That is correct, it is also irrelevent."
It seems that the best weapon for any one contemplating conflict with the US is the media IN the US.
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From what I saw of him speak I think Mr Murtha sincirely cares about the young troops who are getting killed there every day and would want that to stop.
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"and most importantly, insurgent incidents have increased from 150 a week to 700 in the past year"
Now I don't know what calculator he's been using,but mine says that 150 times 52 = 7800.
To me, that say that insurgent incidents dropped, can we say, "just a touch":aok
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I will not send American boys to do what Asian boys should do for themselves.
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You wanna re-constitute the draft? Where we gonna get the men... err, KIDS to fill the boots on the ground? We got kids that have done 3 tours already... while their Iraqi counterparts do get one week off outta three.
To 'win' this thing, seems to me we gotta spill a lot more blood, theirs and ours. Big maximum effort, sealing borders, snuffing resistance.. how we gonna win as an army of occupation if we can't win the hearts and minds.. when it's obvious we're losing hearts and minds?
We gotta go, and we gotta have a plan that focuses on how to do it. I can't see how else we're gonna convince the Iraqi armed forces or civil government that they have to secure and defend themselves. If it means the place Balkanizes into a Kurd, Shia and Sunni States and we shift our on the ground support and basing to Kurdish territory, so be it.
We gotta get a program running to either escalate this thing into the war that ends forever the threat of jihad driven Islamic Fundemental Theocracy in the region or get the hell outta dodge, because this occupying of Iraq in the half ass, stretched thin. high cost attempt at out-attritioning the Jihadists in their own back yard is doomed to failure.
And piling more **** on top of a wagon that's broken and ain't going anywhere just don't work. we've been there, done that.
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We gotta get a program running to either escalate this thing into the war that ends forever the threat of jihad driven Islamic Fundemental Theocracy in the region or get the hell outta dodge
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Hangtime, your onto something here. Lets talk about escalation.....lets do a "think tank"......
If you were supreme commander of all allied military forces just what would you do in Iraq today? You talk about "jihad driven Islamic Fundemental Theocracy" but how would you identify that as a military target and attack it with overwhelming force?
It seems most of what we are doing in Iraq today is getting attacked by suicide bombers.....desert kamakazis......
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if(read when if the dems win out) we retreat = pull a Saigon, there would be a major terrorist attack in the States within the following year
you guys can't see the object of this war?
who the enemy we are fighting against are?
what they believe in, what they live to die for?
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give it up eagler, we are doomed.
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I can already envision the weak talking points.
"We lost the war because of the weak-willed Democrats"
"We lost the war because of the domestic upheaval at home"
.... and other such drivel.
1.) The Dems gave Bush the go ahead. Carte blanche. Bush screwed it up.
2.) There's basically no upheaval. No mass protests.... nada.
This admin has been given 3 years to get this right. They've botched everything about it, and only now are folks are speaking up.
Cause and effect...
Get it right.
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Originally posted by Eagler
if(read when if the dems win out) we retreat = pull a Saigon, there would be a major terrorist attack in the States within the following year
you guys can't see the object of this war?
who the enemy we are fighting against are?
what they believe in, what they live to die for?
Yup. I know the answer to all three. We all do.
Now, my turn...
Whats it gonna take to win? What would it take for an islamic army of occupation to win it if it was them here, instead of us; there?
Think they could win?
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This ain't a frickin IQ test people...
We win when the new government of Iraq takes care of it's own affairs.
And we'll shove it right in European faces.
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Originally posted by Nash
This admin has been given 3 years to get this right. They've botched everything about it, ......................
Get it right.
Get it right.... (http://www.defendamerica.mil/downloads/MNFI-Year-in-Review_2004-Fact-Sheets.pdf)
That's just through 2004, many many more advances have been made in 2005. We are not, have not, will not lose this war. It's one of the biggest success stories in the history of warfare and rehabilitation of a broken society. It aint perfect, but what has been accomplished in the face of the propaganda machines working against us and the tens of thousands of fanatics that have infiltrated into Iraq to kill as many as they can, civilian or military, has never been accomplished before and is a testament to the people that are over there making it happen.
We have always had a timetable for the withdrawal of our troops, and I think we should stick to it. They leave when the job is done. It won't be much longer (2 years at the most I think), but scheduling the wholesale 'bugging out' of the coalition over there is a mistake.
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hangtime. islam will aquire a nuclear weapons arsenal if we give them time.
whats your ultra brillaint post hippe vietnam vet response?
nash, your a certified waste of time.....nice guy and all......
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Originally posted by Yeager
hangtime. islam will aquire a nuclear weapons arsenal if we give them time.
whats your ultra brillaint post hippe vietnam vet response?
nash, your a certified waste of time.....nice guy and all......
That's it. Call a Vietnam vet a hippy. That's the ticket. Man you guys sound like bozos when you do that.
Other than offering up folks like Hang to the front lines, you guys don't know squat about war.
I tell you flat out.... Were I in yer shoes, I'd never enlist with Republicans in power. Not in a million years. I don't blame you for being a certified chickenhawk loudmouth about it. It's what your ilk does. You sincerely know no better. Of that I am convinced.
As for me being a "a certified waste of time"..... Do you care to explain that? Because, just for giggles, a lot of time has been wasted, and a lot of treasure squandered, and a lot of lives lost in pursuit of what you've always supported and continue to advocate.
You want to talk about a waste? I see that as a waste. Tragically wasted. Horrifically, dumbfoundingly, stupifyingly, and sadly wasted.
Me? I cost you ten seconds.
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This ain't a frickin IQ test people...
We win when the new government of Iraq takes care of it's own affairs.
And we'll shove it right in European faces.
Lasersailor, that is outstandingly self-centred and ignorant; Europeans have been giving life and limb for this stupid conflict since the start. You're a larger than life American stereotype, but at least there are others in this thread it is possible to engage with.
We removed Saddam from power and that was the objective.
What? And that was an acceptable objective? To remove a dictator from a country seething with ethnic tensions and just walk away?
And if you don't believe it was an acceptable objective, which side of the argument were you on 3 years ago?
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hang
they don't have to "occupy" anything and never will
we don't fear an islamic invasion, all they have to do is a 911 in much smaller scale 2 or 3x and the average hand wringer would sheet himself, wallstreet would tank, depression would follow, riots at the bread lines & looting of stores would begin and we would implode
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srry hang and nash. that was mean of me and uneccessary. I just try to have fun when I read and post here. This subject is getting under my skin and I shall try and return to my usual casual self.
again srry :cry
peace, love
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Yeag no apology required on my behalf. With regards to your question... I dunno. I was a glorified heavy equipment specialist. My only war time qualification was being lucky enuff to survive with just a spare hole in my bellybutton that happily qualified me for a ticket the hell home 4 months early. Does that make me a General Staff War College dude?
FWIW, to me it looks like another asymmetric guerilla war. The history buff in me is convinced we can't win on their terrain with a conventional occupation force. We will again win every fixed piece battle. And we will again be fighting a war of attrition, unable to reach out and hit the guys where they get their groceries and grenades. If we stay, we ain’t gonna win unless we go to a full forces, full theatre commitment now.
A wet behind the ears Lieutenant could figure that one out.
Now, do we as a nation have the resolve and the resources to engage the conventional forces of nations that are funneling men, material and supplies into Iraq? We ready to open an all-out can of whup-ass on Syria and Iran? We ready to fight the Last Crusade, now? That’s what they see it as, what they train their kids to see, what the Mothers of their Kids see. With every fibre of their being and with a passion that can hardly be believed those people are gonna do every single thing they can to kill our kids as gruesomely as possible as often as possible.
We need to Win, and WIN BIG, or we may as well get the hell out now. You see that kinda commitment from the administration? Are the political soccer moms and Hollywood idiots willing to bring back the draft, build up our conventional army to WWII levels and give this war the material and logistical support our kids need to win? As it stands now, the way we’re fighting this now, looks like it’s an unwinnable war against a dedicated indigent population getting massive outside support and supply from Syria and Iran. Can we defeat, occupy & rebuild, and then install democratic governments in those nations when we're done with what we have committed now? Think we can swing 2, maybe three or more Iraq's? How we doin so far? If not, it’s time to tell the Iraqi’s to pick up the burden now, cause we can’t do this without them doing the lions share of the logistics and fighting.
We've now discovered the hard way that Iraq is not post-WWII Germany. This ain't Europe. Who among us here have solutions to the Islamic reaction to what they see as ‘Crusaders’? To them this is holy war. Every one we kill seems to create 3 more dedicated fighters.
They will NOT give up till each and every single 'Crusader' on their 'territory' is dead. period. Just like we wouldn't roll over at this point if there was an occupation army of Moslems in the United States.
Look, if the administration could solve this thing with what we have available right now it'd be over already, wouldn't it? What have we got that we ain't used.. and what would we gain by using it?
What's it gonna take to get this over with? And are we willing to do it?
I’m not about to pull my support for the troops back even a tiny bit.. if we’re in it, we’re in it for keeps. No more half bellybutton measures. Kick ass. Full out. The Draft, Wartime Rationing, massive economic concessions, Wartime Manufacturing and Economy... This is it, the big one… Global War. The whole nine yards, the big enchilada. If we’re gonna fight this thing, then lets get it done; full out, no dickin around like Korea or Vietnam with the gooks hiding in Laos, Cambdia and us not able to invade across the DMZ. The full can of whup ass, or bring the boys home to build the walls now cause I’m not at all happy with the idea of sending the kids over there without a full commitment from here to get it done right.
It ain’t me yah gotta convince this war is Just.. sell the ****in liberals, the soccer moms and the poltiticians that seem to think they can play politics with the lives of our kids for ‘measured’ results. Let’s get with the Jihadists program and meet it with the total commitment and ferocity it’ll take to stamp it out or get the boys home.
My last .02 cents.
and god bless the Troops.
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Originally posted by Yeager
hangtime. islam will aquire a nuclear weapons arsenal if we give them time.
whats your ultra brillaint post hippe vietnam vet response?
nash, your a certified waste of time.....nice guy and all......
Pakistan already has nukes. please, try to do a bit of self education before lashing out with the childish name calling.;)
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Sorry I take it as a cut- n- run request.
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Originally posted by Rolex
......Colin Powell was right. He tried vigorously to get Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld to justify the invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but became so frustrated at their agendas and convoluted thinking that he ended up saying to Cheney, "What are you, nuts?"
Wasn't he the one that made the case before the UN for the invasion? If that statement is true & that is how he felt, then he had no business making that argument to the UN. If he did, the low morals at best. Either Powells morals are questionalbe or the statement is.
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As I said in another thread, The problem is that there can be no precipate withdrawal from Iraq unless the situation is resolved. Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda drew strength from the American withdrawal from Somalia. He said so himself. The 'kick ass' version won't work either. It can't win because like all assymetric wars you really don't know who the terrorists are.
Iraq did not work out the way it was intended, no one anticipated a highly organised and well funded guerrila and terrorist campaign by Saddam's Baathist thugs allied with the shock troops of the Al Qaeda's suicide monkeys.
If America pulls out they lose the first real battle in the 'war on terror'. A victory for the terrorists. But to stay means years of casualties and constant service in Iraq for the troops. I'm beginning to think it's an illusion that the nascent Iraqi military and police can ever face up to this. Remember what happened to the ARVN in '75.
Frankly I don't think Bush will bite the bullet on this one. It will be left to his successor whoever he is. Republican or Democrat. And he will be Democrat if it is not resolved by then.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
You know, I've been on the fence on Iraq. Myself, not being a Vet (choose Edumacation instead), I sometimes feel that it is "not my place to talk". My Grandpa (deceased in 98) was a Marine (43-46) and my Pop was Army (60-63).
I'll ALWAYS still support the troops. They do the dirty work I suppose, while the politician's fumble about with grandstanding, etc. My pop has consistantly told me we never should have gone into Iraq, he agreed with Afghanistan, but not Iraq.
I was bitter about the "murtha uprising" because I thought "here we go with the politician's grandstanding." But no, I as a Non-Vet, believe it's time to pack our bags and let Iraq see if they can stand on their hind legs and fight back. We removed Saddam from power and that was the objective.
Hangtime, great post.
Karaya
PS - I'm sorry if my post pisses anyone off, it's not meant too.
I did serve Karaya, so if that qualifies as a say so then here goes. You're an American citizen, and by rights you DO have a say in things, that is why I served almost half my life.
Hangtime, gotta disagree with you on the hearts and minds issue. We here in America have only been getting the bad news and such. Since I still work for the military department I hear differently. I hear about all the good things going on and the peoples appreciation.
Look at what happened with the Jordanian bombing just last week. The muslim and arab world are crying out against Zarq....whatever his name is, and he's backpedaling. His own family issued adds in the Jordanian papers condemning him and severing all ties.
Yeah, I've seen some of our boys do 2 or 3 rotations. They don't like it, but they do it because they know it's right.
And while we're at it, it may be the sons of congressmen doing the dirty work, but I know a lot of soldiers that would not agree with pulling out right now. If they're old enough to serve they have a voice in government, it would be interesting to see how the boots on the ground would vote on a pullout agenda.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I dont think it was a great post. Its a post supporting, calling for retreat. Here we go again.....
It's not a retreat if we declare victory and then go home. ;)
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Seriously, we need to be in Iraq for a while longer, maybe longer than some may prefer. I understand that there is considerable heat on all representatives because of #1: Upcoming US elections and #2 Intense pressure from "progressives" who believe that they own the truth.
Doctor Doh, and Gnash, give up the idea that you have the moral upper ground without much more exlpanation. I don't think you understand much beyond your localities, or beyond your own life experiences.
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Hi BigGun...
Powell has always been a loyal soldier and patriot. Discussing and making his opinions known, based on his experience, was his job, but when the president makes a decision to do X, Powell always did X to best of his ability - as a young lieutenant, through Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, to Secretary of State. It was Powell who wanted the chance to make one last case before the UN, using the best intelligence available.
He spent days at the pentagon preparing the best case he could before the UN, based on the information he was given, and the assurances of the veracity of the information.
He has since regretted that presentation before the UN. Not because of any personal embarrassment, but because of the veracity of the information he was given, the blow to the credibility of the intelligence community, and the US credibility as a whole.
I don't think that is low morals. I'm curious what you think he should have done at that point in time?
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Hangtime, it is hard to disagree with you. Your pain is very evident. Still, I disagree with you because Iraq is not Vietnam. This is WWW III.
(just so you can judge me, I enlisted in the Army in 1967, in time for Tet, with my brother, from a family of ten, for the college money. I was 20, my bro was 18. My knee blew out and I remember saluting my brother as he went on to Vietnam. I'm so proud of him. He got malaria, shrapnel, engaged the enemy in firefights, did his duty and came home at 19 years old,skinny as a stringbing, with a stomach ulcer from the fear, and it took me a couple years to know him again.)
I just want you to think it over...
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Bingo. It IS WWIII.. and the sooner we drop the gloves and get with the Jihast program the sooner it'll be over.
Here's some factoids..
The borders are porous, Iran and Syria are funneling material and personel into Iraq. We don't have the numbers to stop it.
The Iraq 'military' serves 3 weeks, then goes home for a week.
There are three significant power bases/political groups and a terrosist group in Iraq. 3 out of the 4 agree completely that the US troops are valid targets, whereas those same three groups cannot stand each other, kill each other and regard themselves as the legitimate inheritors of power in Iraq, they are now working together to kill Americans. The only power base/political group that considers the US a benfactor is the Kurds. NE Iraq is a US stronghold. The resta the place looks like Vietnam in a 50 year drought.
Unless we can force in the strongest possible terms Iraqi self-defense onto the Iraqi's, they're just gonna sit back and let us do the brunt of the fighting. I get no sense of 'serious' attempts at self defense from ANY of the Iraqi military. One week off outta 4? WTF is THAT crap??!!
This is unacceptable.. feeding our kids into that damn meat grinder one body part at a time is no way to fight this damn war.. who here as EVER seen this kinda fighting succeed, anywhere, at any time?
Either we go full court press and escalate this War into a Theatre Operation against all the Nations that are supplying and supporting the Insurgency or we just get the hell out now because turning our kids into arcade targets for an increasingly effective insurgent force is NOT something I can get behind..
Seen it before. Lived it. It's happening again.
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It's so nice that all the arm chair generals have shown up for this wonderful discussion, including Murtha by quote.
I think the only way this is going to end is by the major actions (with minor actions of another) of one command, and I'll give you one guess as to what command that is.
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Oh, and btw, we are about one attack in the US by, nondescript Muslim males between the ages of 17 - 45, from a new crusade.
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Originally posted by oboe
Thank you for this thread, and your opinions. I feel like I can breathe again. I took a wrong turn at Yeager's thread and wound up in East St Louis, I think. I knew I was right but just don't have the credibility you guys have.
I think I'd follow Murtha to Timbuktu, but wouldn't venture past my driveway behind Bush or Cheney.
Oboe.
Your a citizen and a tax payer. Your as qualified as anyone to state your opinon. Your also just as credible as anyone. A thread where most of the people agree with you doesn't mean your right. Just like the fact I dissagree with you doesn't make me right. I've never been to East St Louis so I have no idea what that means.
Murtha has some good ideas. I don't know if it's the answer. We've made commitments to the people of Iraq. I know he stated having a rapid reaction force, and Marines just over the horizon. You can almost bet that the wackos will be out killing as many people that voted in the Iraqi elections that they can get their hands on. If we leave too soon.
Events since the hotel bombings in Jordon seem to point to the fact that maybe the AQ isn't as popular as everybody lets on. Staying the course a little longer may pay off. The again maybe it won't.
I think the point that I don't like the war in Iraq got lost in East St Louis somewhere.;)
I want them home too. I'm one lucky man that I got both sons back in one piece, more or less. I don't agree with the politics of bashing a sitting American President during a time of war. Any President. I don't care who is President. Screaming Bush lied and we need to get out now is not going to help the troops on the ground. It will just make their lives that much more difficult. It's not just voters that watch this stuff. It goes all over the world. The people our troops are fighting see this stuff too.
I'm not saying Bush should be given carte blanche. I am saying all of congress should be working on winning , or finishing this thing together, with the President. To dissagree with him isn't the problem. To cut him off at the legs everytime a TV camera is present is. These are educated people surely they can find a way to get their point across without all the trash. If they have an idea to make this situation better for the country, and the troops. Then it should merit serious presentation. Not theatrical Bush bashing. It would grow legs a hell of a lot quicker if it was presented in a sound and serious manner.
I don't speak for all military parents. I can only speak for myself. Everytime I see a Democrat calling Bush a liar , and saying our troops are tortureing , and killing the innocent . I get enraged , and vow never to support any Democrat ever. Theres parents of military men and women all over the country hearing this everyday. While their loved are over in Iraq, or Afghanistan. It's a damn shame they have to listen to it, it's hard enough worrying about if your loved ons are okay. Imagine how it makes the troops feel .
I've heard so many say this is Bush's War. I got news for you. Bush isn't over there fighting it. Nor are his children. It's the average American's kids and loved one fighting in the Mid East. It's our war, and our childrens war. They deserve better than they've been getting from both Republicans, Democrats, and we Americans who bash each other over the BBS.
So Terry I apologize for the way I went after you last week. I also need to do a better job of putting forth my ideas.
I'd just like everyone to remember one thing...................
Bush is three more years. Every Soldier, or Marine, we lose is forever.
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hangtime, I support the pre-emptive use of atomics against the rougue nations north korea, iran and syria, oh...and certain mountainous regions of afganistan and pakistan. I know this concept will insult the tellie tubbies of the world but oh well.......
If we go another 5-10 years without taking the small punk nations down very very soon they will supply the atomic weapons to OBL and his ilk of camel farmers that will vaporize Wash DC as soon as they can. then it will be too late to save the world.
:cry
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What some of you don't realize is that our enemies feel they are in a 100 year war of attrition in wich they have allready been fighting for the last 25 years. If we can't stand a two year fight than we should open up our borders now and become subservant to the religion of Islam because as radical as it sounds THAT is there goal. TO make a world wide islamic community by force, terror, threat, and whatever means they think they can justify.
2000+ of our GIs is a heafty price today in current times (wouldn't have been much in the days of Nam but that's another story) but 2,000,000 citizens dead is an imeasurable defeat and one we WILL face if we give in to our short term wants and political greed.
Just my opinion though carry on
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Hangtime, it is hard to disagree with you. Your pain is very evident. Still, I disagree with you because Iraq is not Vietnam. This is WWW III.
Oh crap!!....oh wait, for a moment I thought you said this is WWWW IIIII, nevermind.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What some of you don't realize is that our enemies feel they are in a 100 year war of attrition in wich they have allready been fighting for the last 25 years. If we can't stand a two year fight than we should open up our borders now and become subservant to the religion of Islam because as radical as it sounds THAT is there goal. TO make a world wide islamic community by force, terror, threat, and whatever means they think they can justify.
2000+ of our GIs is a heafty price today in current times (wouldn't have been much in the days of Nam but that's another story) but 2,000,000 citizens dead is an imeasurable defeat and one we WILL face if we give in to our short term wants and political greed.
Just my opinion though carry on
Yup, thats about it :(
And the sooner everyone realizes it, the better off we will be.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What some of you don't realize is that our enemies feel they are in a 100 year war of attrition in wich they have allready been fighting for the last 25 years. If we can't stand a two year fight than we should open up our borders now and become subservant to the religion of Islam because as radical as it sounds THAT is there goal. TO make a world wide islamic community by force, terror, threat, and whatever means they think they can justify.
Guns, I don't get it.. when did War become a side job?
Either we're at War or just playing politics with our soldiers lives. IMHO, if it's a serious enough situation to start killin 50+ of our boys a month it's time the rest of the nation started to either do their part to materialy contribute or bring the kids home. This half-assed warfare **** has got to cease.
Full court press or bring 'em home. Either we're ALL in it, sacraficing what's necessary outta our own day to day grind, contributring materialy and morally to the effort or it's just bull**** lipservice.
Commitment.
The whole nine yards now, or bring 'em home.
'
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Guns, I don't get it.. when did War become a side job?
Either we're at War or just playing politics with our soldiers lives. IMHO, if it's a serious enough situation to start killin 50+ of our boys a month it's time the rest of the nation started to either do their part to materialy contribute or bring the kids home. This half-assed warfare **** has got to cease.
Full court press or bring 'em home. Either we're ALL in it, sacraficing what's necessary outta our own day to day grind, contributring materialy and morally to the effort or it's just bull**** lipservice.
Commitment.
The whole nine yards now, or bring 'em home.
'
We live in a democracy and no politican is going to go full tilt on this republican or democrat. The right thing to do is not allways the most popular and our leaders who make these decisions have to get relected.....That's not to say I approve of what I just said but that's how I see it.
In addition I don't see this as a limited war were we can't bomb certain people or take out certain "trails" for political reasons, this is what I said earlier a war of attritian.
Here's a lesson:
The main doctrine that our military uses for conducting war is called maneuver warfare. It's brilliant in practice because: The main thing about maneuver warfare is that you try to avoid hitting a bigger army head on. You pick apart his supply lines and support and you exploit his weaknesses with speed and accuracy.
The invasion of Iraq was a brilliant example of this, it went perfectly. We advanced a good size army faster and longer than any in history and took relitivly few casualties. We used our technology to our advantage and exploited our enemies weaknesses at ever aspect.
One of the main advantages of maneuver warfare is because of the speed of your army you can gain advantage with a smaller size force.
Well the good times are over now it's time to switch gears to occupation. This requires a larger standing army and if you rember recent history you will recall that Turkey pulled the plug on the 4th ID from invading Iraq on a second northern front. This caused them to have to go by ship all the way around to the suez and then back up the gulf. These grunts were not on hand for the occupation for at least a month and missed the invasion alltogether.
Now the war fighting switches from maneuver warfare to an occupation of attritian. The enemy is dug into the populus and has reletivly few supply lines and requires very little logistics to cary out his task. He can inflict good amount of casualites (both military and civilian) utilizing very few assets. Again this is a war of attritian. This may not have been the plan from the onset but Mr. Murphy allways says no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
The Key to defeating an enemy like this is to stand fast and get him to fight you on your terms not his. This is easier said than done considering who we are facing and this is their yard not ours. Either way the will of the Iraqi people and more importantly the will of the American people play bigger roles in this type of warfare than most people realize. When the will to fight of either populations is broken victory cannot be achieved and the enemy has won........even if he lost every military battle and suffered great defeat on the battlefield itself he has one the war. This is a war of wills our's vrs. theirs. They have the will (now) to stand fast and fight us on every front they can create for the next 75 years......do we?
anyways this is just a little incite into the way I think.....carry on!
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64 years ago the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and killed 2,403 Americans. This nation got off it's pacifist bellybutton and went to War. Over the course of the next 4 1/2 years we built the mightiest War Machine the planet has ever seen. We went forth and kicked bellybutton all across the globe, defeating our enemies utterly. Full court press. Tuff road to hoe, but the Nation made a commitment and the job got done. Total War Footing, Production, Economy.. a nation bent to the task.
4 years ago Islamic Jihad came to America and killed 3,030 Americans.
WTF is wrong with this picture? We're dicking around, poking the snake with a stick. Meanwhile the snakes pals are getting organized. Now, we're getting 'tired' of poking the snake, the snakes getting seriously pissed and his buddies are getting in position to cut off our ability to kill their pal.
Bring 'em home or get it done. Enuff of this bull****.
Kill the damn snakes, already. All of 'em.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Bring 'em home or get it done. Enuff of this bull****.
Exactly.
I think it's a fool's errand in the first place, but so long as you're serious about it, then dial it up or leave. Either of those is better for everyone involved than this... this... whatever it is....
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Nash, to have you agree with me makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Makes me wonder where I blew it.
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Originally posted by Nash
Exactly.
I think it's a fool's errand in the first place, but so long as you're serious about it, then dial it up or leave. Either of those is better for everyone involved than this... this... whatever it is....
maybe we should try to understand Islam better and get to know our enemy so he doesn't hate us so much....right??
Originally posted by Hangtime
WTF is wrong with this picture? We're dicking around, poking the snake with a stick. Meanwhile the snakes pals are getting organized. Now, we're getting 'tired' of poking the snake, the snakes getting seriously pissed and his buddies are getting in position to cut off our ability to kill their pal.
Hang we are allready fighting his buddies. Iraq has become the great war for jihadists. The come from all around for a chance to kill one of our boys. The only advantage is they don't have very good aim and they are getting mowed down in droves at every engagment OFF OF US soil.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Hang we are allready fighting his buddies. Iraq has become the great war for jihadists. The come from all around for a chance to kill one of our boys. The only advantage is they don't have very good aim and they are getting mowed down in droves at every engagment OFF OF US soil.
We fought all of WWII off of US soil. The problem is this damn country treats this as a side show militarily and our objective is incorrect. It shouldn't be 'pacifying' Iraq, it should be killing the snake, wherever it's hiding. It should be killing the snake trainers and handlers, the guys that feed 'em, the guys that rake out the cage and the guys that decided it was cool to raise snakes in the first place.
Total War, or get the hell out.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
It's so nice that all the arm chair generals have shown up for this wonderful discussion, including Murtha by quote.
I think the only way this is going to end is by the major actions (with minor actions of another) of one command, and I'll give you one guess as to what command that is.
No gathering of arm chair generals would be complete without you. ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
We fought all of WWII off of US soil. The problem is this damn country treats this as a side show militarily and our objective is incorrect. It shouldn't be 'pacifying' Iraq, it should be killing the snake, wherever it's hiding. It should be killing the snake trainers and handlers, the guys that feed 'em, the guys that rake out the cage and the guys that decided it was cool to raise snakes in the first place.
Total War, or get the hell out.
I remember the snake. He's not in Iraq.
(http://vikingphoenix.com/photos/911-2003/osama-bin-laden.jpg)
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I dont mean to sound like the oil is what its all about. However in looking at the situation without knowing all of the details, I can guess a few things. If US pulls out, there are some 100 iraqi thousand forces left. They may or may not out number the insurgence, supposedly they do. They may or may not fight for survival, they may lay their arms down, they may kill off the insurgents. Are the insurgents going to stand down and allow the govt the US forces established to gov. Nature will take its course and the masses will flow to one side or the other and the the lesser side will loose. Perhaps its not naturally occuring now because US forces are there. Its a 100 thousand Iraqi coalition forces vs some thousands insurgents. I think thats what Murtha is thinking about.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Nash, to have you agree with me makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Makes me wonder where I blew it.
Can't even agree with a guy anymore here without a a jab. Neato.
You know where you blew it Hang? It was some moment between the selling of the war, and right now. Only you know for sure.
As for your comment... This place couldn't be any uglier for me. The only thing more nasty than people getting hoodwinked is people realizing they've been hoodwinked. Damn do they ever get nasty.
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You ain't ever had the joy of getting a nasty gram from me yet... and I fail to see any 'nastyness' in my previous.
Yer skin gettin thin or is my perspective shot?
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Total War, or get the hell out.
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Its coming hang. losing in iraq only means its inevitable now. Didnt have to be this way but the amercian people are fickle and are fools. we are being tooled by the liberal left as they slut grab for power. We will withdraw, iraq will turn into a hate breeding ground 100 times worse than afganistan ever could have hoped to be. All because we got weak and pulled the rug out from under our troops. I think nash even predicted it......:furious
:rofl
nash lighten up dude. its difficult when you care but this is not a real good place to care. save that for he people you can shake hands with smile and talk to...like human beings. This just aint the format for seriousness....all seriosness aside :aok
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Originally posted by Hangtime
You ain't ever had the joy of getting a nasty gram from me yet... and I fail to see any 'nastyness' in my previous.
Yer skin gettin thin or is my perspective shot?
I'd rather a "nasty gram" over whatever the hell that was.
As for your perspective, I can't speak on that. Go read the next ten posts down following anything I've typed here in the last month if you care.
Hell, I've said the same exact thing as you're saying now, here, long before your recent (wake-up) call to arms. It makes no difference.
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Originally posted by Yeager
nash lighten up dude. its difficult when you care but this is not a real good place to care. save that for he people you can shake hands with smile and talk to...like human beings. This just aint the format for seriousness....all seriosness aside :aok
Appreciate that, Yeager.
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http://www.lp.org
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We're in a pickle, but its pretty tough to withdraw from WWIII. We need to stick it out a little longer. Even when Iraq is Iraqitized enough for a major withdrawal, I think we need to maintain a base there.
I'm all for massive escalation in Iraq, with a huge increase in troops. That is ideal. But we need the draft to do that, which would be a big mistake.
On the day our military resorts to the draft - when there are not enough volunteers, that is the day I say its time for full, immediate withdrawal, time to go home and prepare for the inevitable.
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Shifty,
NP. I should be more like Hang, Nash, and the other heavy hitters and let 'em roll off me more. Sorry I got indignant - I'm often on the opposite side from the Repubs and so get thrown in with the Dems alot but it always bugs me. There really is no party that represents my interests and values well, that I'm aware of.
Your last post was very well written and I agree with almost everything you say.
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Well....looks like the insurgents and terrorist are winning this little war right here on our own soil without firing a shot....just as Hanoi turned the opinion of US citizens, the same strat is being employed by Al Queda.
Didn't take us long to fold up this time.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I remember the snake. He's not in Iraq.
(http://vikingphoenix.com/photos/911-2003/osama-bin-laden.jpg)
He's with Allah
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Originally posted by Sandman
It's not a retreat if we declare victory and then go home. ;)
Yup, Saigon all over again.
It becomes UBL's new rallying cry!
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Rude, just to be sure you understand.. I'm not advocating pacifisim. I just don't want this to continue the way it's going.. I want those bastads dead, ASAP; and I'm sick of the partisan sniping for political gain. I'm sick of under-equipped, under supported troops grinding out 24 hour a day 1 year tours while their Iraqi counterparts are coddled and babied. I'm sick of Sheehan and her ilk.
I do NOT want a pull-out. I want a massive national commitment to the cause and the troops, I want the democrats to get with the program, I want the, military expanded massively, I want the commerical and political intrests suborned to the National Goal.. WIN the War on Terror.
No more half-assed measures. Lets get it done or get the hell out. There is no middle ground, because we cannot win from the middle ground.
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Originally posted by oboe
Shifty,
NP. I should be more like Hang, Nash, and the other heavy hitters and let 'em roll off me more. Sorry I got indignant - I'm often on the opposite side from the Repubs and so get thrown in with the Dems alot but it always bugs me. There really is no party that represents my interests and values well, that I'm aware of.
Your last post was very well written and I agree with almost everything you say.
Don't give up. Keep putting your ideas out there. Thats the great thing about America It's okay when we dissagree in this country. There are still some places on earth one of us may have been drug out in the night and shot for what we believe.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Rude, just to be sure you understand.. I'm not advocating pacifisim. I just don't want this to continue the way it's going.. I want those bastads dead, ASAP; and I'm sick of the partisan sniping for political gain. I'm sick of under-equipped, under supported troops grinding out 24 hour a day 1 year tours while their Iraqi counterparts are coddled and babied. I'm sick of Sheehan and her ilk.
I do NOT want a pull-out. I want a massive national commitment to the cause and the troops, I want the democrats to get with the program, I want the, military expanded massively, I want the commerical and political intrests suborned to the National Goal.. WIN the War on Terror.
No more half-assed measures. Lets get it done or get the hell out. There is no middle ground, because we cannot win from the middle ground.
Winning the war in Iraq won't win the war on terror. In fact, I don't believe the war on terror is winnable.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Winning the war in Iraq won't win the war on terror. In fact, I don't believe the war on terror is winnable.
What do you suggest, negotiate with them?
(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.10.09.TheirPerspective-X.gif)
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Them? Who are them?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Them? Who are them?
Typical. You can't argue the point.
Again, what are your suggestions for handling terrorists and their organizations?
I expect a better plan than what the U.S. has right now.
Listening...
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Terrorism is a tool. It's not an ideology. Declaring a war on terrorism and terrorists is a silly as declaring a war on snipers.
Call it what it is, Rip. The war on radical Islam.
Just keep in mind that radical Islamists aren't the only people on this planet that have used or will continue to use this particular tool of war.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Terrorism is a tool. It's not an ideology. Declaring a war on terrorism and terrorists is a silly as declaring a war on snipers.
Call it what it is, Rip. The war on radical Islam.
Just keep in mind that radical Islamists aren't the only people on this planet that have used or will continue to use this particular tool of war.
So whats your plan for dealing with radical Islam?
Listening...
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You've missed the point.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You've missed the point.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Typical. You can't argue the point.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Rude, just to be sure you understand.. I'm not advocating pacifisim. I just don't want this to continue the way it's going.. I want those bastads dead, ASAP; and I'm sick of the partisan sniping for political gain. I'm sick of under-equipped, under supported troops grinding out 24 hour a day 1 year tours while their Iraqi counterparts are coddled and babied. I'm sick of Sheehan and her ilk.
I do NOT want a pull-out. I want a massive national commitment to the cause and the troops, I want the democrats to get with the program, I want the, military expanded massively, I want the commerical and political intrests suborned to the National Goal.. WIN the War on Terror.
No more half-assed measures. Lets get it done or get the hell out. There is no middle ground, because we cannot win from the middle ground.
You're looking for something that ain't gonna happen in this day and age unless we suffer something far worse than 11 September 2001. It will take far more than what we've already suffered to truly unite this nation.
Worse yet, we can't quit without suffering the aforementioned tragedy as a direct result of quitting.
The assumption that bin Laden is the source of all this is false and baseless. He is, or maybe was, a figurehead, he's no longer an effective leader. The same thing will become of Zaqwari. Sure, a nice public execution or assassination of the two would be nice, and somewhat satisfying. But it's a group of people, not one.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Typical. You can't argue the point.
You want me to argue your point?
I said the war on terrorism is not winnable. You post a cartoon that isn't about the war on terrorism. It's about the war on radical islam. Then, you want me to share a plan for dealing with radical Islam.
Try again.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Nash, to have you agree with me makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Makes me wonder where I blew it.
What Nash said is nothing new. Many of us have been saying it from the beginning..
We said more troops. But were told we didnt know what we were talking about.
Some military leaders were given early retirement for mentioning MORE TROOPS.
And since our ideas didnt follow the admin and rep talking points exactly we have been shouted down.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You want me to argue your point?
I said the war on terrorism is not winnable. You post a cartoon that isn't about the war on terrorism. It's about the war on radical islam. Then, you want me to share a plan for dealing with radical Islam.
Try again.
War on Terror and Radical Islam go pretty much hand in hand now a days. You really don't see to much of one with out the other.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
War on Terror and Radical Islam go pretty much hand in hand now a days. You really don't see to much of one with out the other.
That's only because it's fashionable to ignore everything but Iraq.
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm
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Originally posted by Sandman
That's only because it's fashionable to ignore everything but Iraq.
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm
"Fashionable to ignore everthing else" You mean the MEDIA doesn't report everything??????
most of those involve some sort of Allah or another. This kinda reminds me of the time Bush was pushing for missle deffense and all we heard from the left was "we weren't attacked with missles" ;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
"Fashionable to ignore everthing else" You mean the MEDIA doesn't report everything??????
Of course not.
most of those involve some sort of Allah or another. This kinda reminds me of the time Bush was pushing for missle deffense and all we heard from the left was "we weren't attacked with missles" ;)
...and we we're right. ;)
But, back on topic. the real question is... "Can the U.S. be a stabilizing factor in the Middle-East?"
I truly doubt it.
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But, back on topic. the real question is... "Can the U.S. be a stabilizing factor in the Middle-East?"
====
after the radiation subsides we will be the only factor in the middle east.
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Originally posted by Yeager
But, back on topic. the real question is... "Can the U.S. be a stabilizing factor in the Middle-East?"
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after the radiation subsides we will be the only factor in the middle east.
can you pump oil through glass?
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Future holds many uncertanties. We'll wait to see what happens then.
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one good way to find out.....
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Is this a war on terrorism or religious ideals?
Find me a christian, catholic, methodist, protestant, roman catholic, hindu, buddist terrorist.
Funny thing about religion is that all say they are right, and that the rest are wrong.
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I agree
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Originally posted by Rolex
Hi BigGun...
Powell has always been a loyal soldier and patriot. Discussing and making his opinions known, based on his experience, was his job, but when the president makes a decision to do X, Powell always did X to best of his ability - as a young lieutenant, through Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, to Secretary of State. It was Powell who wanted the chance to make one last case before the UN, using the best intelligence available.
He spent days at the pentagon preparing the best case he could before the UN, based on the information he was given, and the assurances of the veracity of the information.
He has since regretted that presentation before the UN. Not because of any personal embarrassment, but because of the veracity of the information he was given, the blow to the credibility of the intelligence community, and the US credibility as a whole.
I don't think that is low morals. I'm curious what you think he should have done at that point in time?
Wow, taken a bit of time for me to get back to this. Only recently spurred my memory. Earlier this week went to a client conference with an investment firm. On one of the days, Colin Powell was the keynote speaker after lunch. Good fortune to me (or we have 3/4 of billion with the investment firm), I was at the lunch table with Colin before he spoke.
Very interesting person & truely amazing. Definately a man of high integrity and high morals. From the discussion, it came across he had no regrets of presentation made to the UN, acting on the best information available. Also no regrets the US went into Iraq, thinks it is definately good to get rid of Sadam & good for long term middle east. He says only regret is US didn't keep up with massive force & squash insurgancies before they had chance to get foothold.
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If we leave Iraq now, or ten years from now, the result will be the same;
Just take a marker and cross the name Iraq off the map, then re-label it "Western Iran"
Clown Prince George II painted himself into a corner. The only "victorious" route home is through Iran.
The majority of Iraq is Shia, just like Iran. As soon as we leave, whenever that may be, the two countries will effectively unite.
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They should play the Super Bowl in Bagdad next year.
Its warm there & it will help teach the iraqis know they've been pwnd
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Gunslinger and Yeager – you get two big thumbs up from me. I’d like to add to this one but the left side of this forum will never change and neither will the right side (I don't expect it too - this arguement is just beaten to death for me). The independents too will remain in the middle. Everyone will Monday morning quarterback the war to death and what remains – nothing changes. The only ones who really know what's going in Iraq are it's citizens and our troops fighting there protecting them. Not the left slanted or right slanted media or some politician sitting nice and safe at home. Maybe Nash had a wee bit part of it right – waste of time. Instead of me wasting my time typing anymore on this thread I’ll spend the remainder of that time praying for our men and women fighting over seas serving the country that I love. Safe return to them all. Amen.