Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Udie on December 20, 2001, 08:57:00 AM
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Saw him this morning on Fox news. He said something that made up my mind on Al Queda prisoners. He talked about an incedent in the Gulf war where a camera just happened to be present to catch it on film.
A bunch of Iraqi's were surrendering to some American soldiers. He said they were very scared and one of them said to the American soldier, please don't shoot us. The American simply said "Don't worry, we're American, we don't do that."
As much as I personaly want to torture these people, I realize we can't. Since Sept. 11, there's one major part about being American that I forgot about. That would be our respect and love of human life. Our enemy doesn't share this belief and is the major reason they are our enemies.
The urge is there, but let's just hope that we don't put ourselves down on their level. This may be the toughest part of this war for me, keeping my humanity...
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Well said
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Damn it just when I was convinced you were not human you go and do this. :D
We Americans allways find a way to do whats right even when we truely want to do the wrong. I personaly whould like to see them tortured for what the trained to do but I know it not right. If I was still in the Army I do know I could not do any harm to an unarmed enemy. :cool:
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what maddog said.
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Originally posted by Udie:
That would be our respect and love of human life.
That's why we have the death sentence? :) (I agree with your post, but have to play Devil's Advocate at this statement.)
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
That's why we have the death sentence? :) (I agree with your post, but have to play Devil's Advocate at this statement.)
Awww sh*t, here we go. That's exactly why we have the death penalty. If it's not an effective deterrent then perhaps torture would do.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
That's why we have the death sentence? :) (I agree with your post, but have to play Devil's Advocate at this statement.)
Actualy I don't support the death penalty here in America. Which may be why I'm having such emotional dificulty with how to deal with these guys. And I do admit to feeling hipocritical about wanting the death penalty for UBL and his chronies. My justification is that these guys have no remorse and will stop at nothing to kill all westeners.
AND :) I don't want this thread to turn into a death penalty debate, though that door is open now I guess...
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For the record, I support the death penalty. I just thought it was ironic that you mentioned American's love and respect for life when we are one of the only major countries who still execute people.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
For the record, I support the death penalty. I just thought it was ironic that you mentioned American's love and respect for life when we are one of the only major countries who still execute people.
Well of course we have our own "issues" but I was speaking in historical terms. No country in history has been as humanitarian as ours of the past 60 yrs, even with all the "covert" stuff we did.
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Before we go off half-cocked, we still have abortion on demand. Now the death penalty is justified as the person has been judged evil, outside the law, and uncivilized. Death has been determined by our society to be the only solution to stop this type of individual. OBL sure qulifies as evil in a high percentage of American's minds!
Now I am sorry about bringing abortion into this discussion, but this in my mind doesn't show a respect for life.
My wish is that this issue were outside the court system so the American people could have input on this issue. I would like to see a vote by the American people on this issue. I think we would be shocked at the result and would then be worthy of our "respect for life" we feel we have now.
Flame away :(
Sorry for the hijack too, but this is a matter of respect for life too.
[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: 1776 ]
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Just had a curious thought, How is the death penalty any different then shooting some one in battle?
HiTech
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Both are accepted forms of the application of death. The death penalty is rendered under civilized law. Death in war is justified by the rules of war. Two different arenas, but both have rules.
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Because it's war, by defenition that's what they do. Kill each other. I'm not real big on war either, unless I feel it's justified.
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The death penalty is different from shooting someone in battle because the guy in the electric chair isn't heavily armed and out to get you. In war you're trying to kill the other guy before he can kill you. If you knocked him out, tied him up, then shot him in the head when he woke up, then it would be like the death penalty.
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These servicemen are the same guys you went to high school with, snuck beers with, chased girls with. They did not suddenly become robot killers, just because they joined the Army. They still hold the same respect for life as any American. More to the point, there sense of honor must not be assailed. In their business (killing) there can never be any question that they were justified. They will have to live with what they did, long after they leave the service. Shooting unarmed prisoners has never fit into the rules of engagement of a U.S. serviceman. They are confident that they will never be asked to do something dishonorable by their officers. This confidence must be guarded by we the people.
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Amen easymo!
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The only things missing from this post are School prayer and perk point whines.
;)
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We do not avoid shooting prisoners out of respect for human life.
We do that out of respect for the law.
If that prisoner guy refuses to obey a command from a guard he will be shot even if he is unarmed and presents no danger whatsoever. Rules are rules.
miko
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I took a deep breath before posting on this one. I'll post my though on the original subject first. In war both sides have to act less than human, they have to do things that a sane man wouldn't normally contemplate. What seperates the good people at the end is they stay their hand in excess. ie once the job is done they don't continue on to rape and pillage.
Anti-abortion 'right to lifers' really piss me off. Theres too many reasons why and I'm not going into them, but the number one hypocrisy is when these 'crusaders' bomb clinics. Where the &^$& is the right of the doctors and patients to life. Life is about choice and these groups just want to remove choice. When someone asks me why I dont follow one religion, this is one of the answers i give. Generally speaking these anti-abortion groups are religious groups or fanatics of some sort or another. If theres all these religions and they all have this central god, doesnt anyone else see its the same @#*&ing god? Oops, i think thats half a hijack and totally off topic too :).
G
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The unborn have a choice? The abortion industry in America fears the American people that is why you will never see the American people have a vote on this issue. There is way too much money being made in the elimination of the unborn. And the unborn can't protest :(
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You know, I see these news pictures from Afghanistan, with lonies doing the shopping with AK47's over their shoulders, and nutters hanging around street corners with grenade launchers, and I thasnk god I live in a country where guns are banned.
I'd hate to live in a lunatic place like that where every one has access to fire arms.
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you would hate texas lol .
you should see deer season
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The problem with abortion polls (http://www.reporternews.com/2000/opinion/poll0505.html)
Sixty-five percent say abortion rights are generally OK for the first three months of pregnancy. Just 24 percent generally approve the choice of an abortion in the fourth, fifth or sixth month. Only 8 percent generally support abortion rights in the last three months of pregnancy.
But when people are asked what health reasons should legally justify getting an abortion, the numbers shoot to the sky: Eighty-four percent say when the woman’s life is endangered; 81 percent say when a woman’s physical health is endangered; 64 percent when a woman’s mental health is endangered; 53 percent when the baby may be born with a physical impairment; 53 percent when the baby may be born with a mental impairment.
You sure you would like to put this to a vote?
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]
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Why hasn't it been put to a vote? It is clear that abortion would be stopped in its track!!!
It would have to be debated and information is the enmey of this industry. Light on this subject and a vote is the last thing our liberal friends want. That is why it is the court system and not where it should be!
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Easymo, I'm not implieing anything sinister or againt rules of engagement, or hate killing someone caputured. But from a socity stand point. How is carring out, or having the death penalty, any different from declairing war (which will kill people).
Both seem to me simply a sociaty deciding that some things are more important than someones life. Or to phrase it in a different light. If you don't do some killing even more people will suffer or die.
Im just wondering what the difference is, because the result is the same.
BTW I'm for both.
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Philosophically there is no difference. I agree.
My point was, soldiers arn't dealing with philosophy. They have to pull the trigger. Most of the people calling for UBL's head, would panic if you handed them an ax, and said its their job to take his head off personally.
If we allow ourselves to become a mob, and order these killings. Then our men stop being soldiers. And become hired murderers. At the very least, if we were to do that, Our guys deserve a huge pay increase :)
FWIW. I feel that the Military Tribunal is exactly the right course of action.
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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OZ,
I can only assume you didn't read my post. I thought it was quite clear that a general vote would surely maintain at least most abortion as legal.
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
OZ,
I can only assume you didn't read my post. I thought it was quite clear that a general vote would surely maintain at least most abortion as legal.
Why, if I consider something totaly evil and murder of the most inocent form of life, must my tax dollars be used to perform such operations? If a woman wants to murder the life she created in her womb, that's between her and God (i guess) but don't
make me pay for it........!
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Why, if I consider something totaly evil and murder of the most inocent form of life, must my tax dollars be used to perform such operations? If a woman wants to murder the life she created in her womb, that's between her and God (i guess) but don't
make me pay for it........!
Now this is good stuff!
1. Democracy Through our Constitution (you know, that thing we all cherish) - The law says its legal so it is an available medical procedure.
2. Your Tax Dollars - Are only used I assume when someone is on medicare or similar health insurance. Many Jehovah's Witnesses feel blood transfusions are just as wrong. Should we disallow all procedures that anyone might find abhorant, just because someone can't afford to pay for it?
Is choice only available for those who can afford it?
3. This really is the crux of the problem - You said "Murder the life SHE created". She wasn't alone. If the abortion question were to be put to a vote, and only women were allowed to vote.....well I don't think it would be close. They would absolutely vote for choice. (IMHO)
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Now this is good stuff!
1. Democracy Through our Constitution (you know, that thing we all cherish) - The law says its legal so it is an available medical procedure.
2. Your Tax Dollars - Are only used I assume when someone is on medicare or similar health insurance. Many Jehovah's Witnesses feel blood transfusions are just as wrong. Should we disallow all procedures that anyone might find abhorant, just because someone can't afford to pay for it?
Is choice only available for those who can afford it?
3. This really is the crux of the problem - You said "Murder the life SHE created". She wasn't alone. If the abortion question were to be put to a vote, and only women were allowed to vote.....well I don't think it would be close. They would absolutely vote for choice. (IMHO)
I'll respond later, don't have time at work right now. :)
LOL I was worried about this thread turning into a death penalty debate...
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Yes, I understand your post. However as I have asked before, why hasn't it come to a vote of the people? I am sure that after this issue were put before the American people and they enter the voting booth that abortion will be a thing of the past.
Ask a NOW leader why this issue has been bottled up only in the court system. They know the majority of Americans don't favor abortion.
If one favors abortion then it follows that any woman, like the woman in Texas, could dispose of her children before the age of 16 or 18 or 21 or whatever the legal age may be set at. These children are totally dependent upon their parents,right?