Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: plasticman1973 on November 21, 2005, 09:59:19 AM
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I have been playing Call to Duty 2 and there is a scene when the player has control of Artillary. At a target, the player hits a key, the coordinates are radioes in and 5 sucessives atrilery shells are fired at the target.
In the MA, the player can use an M-3 to haul the Artillary to a specific location, turn off the engine, the M-3 dissapears and the player is left with 3-5 artillary batteries to be used.
When done, simply tower.
Is this feature viable?
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Artillery would be a fantastic addition, IMHO.
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I agree - artillery would be cool. It'd flatten a town or field PDQ while at the same time being very vulnerable to aircraft and tanks.
I reckon you could do with a spotter (FOO) too, maybe in a jeep with a radio link? It would hide pretty snugly behind one of them bushes. Of course you could spot with any vehicle but it'd be cool to have a reason for a jeep or light truck.
Did they have mobile radar units toward the end of the war? Just a thought.
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Try WWIIO at http://www.wwiionline.com/ (http://www.wwiionline.com/)
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Or at least the ability to call in artillery from an aircraft. For all those who played WBII or Dawn of Aces you'll know what I'm talking about. Basically it involved getting over a target then typing in .spot to get a spotting round fired from the local AI controlled artillery battery. You could make corrections with more dot commands and if you were happy with the spotting round, you would type .barrage for fire for effect. It was a handy feature in the two games mentioned and it would be nice here.
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M7 Priest 105mm HMC
(http://www.battletanks.com/images/M7B1_Priest-1.jpg)
Sexton 25pdr SP gun
(http://dana-nield.com/vimy/images/Sexton/VIMY-037.JPG)
Or the Wespe
(http://www.battletanks.com/images/Wespe_10.5_cm.jpg)
would all be nice GV additions to give artillery capability.
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waste of time imo.
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I played with artillery in the MA yesterday. I had three 8" naval guns at my command and levelled V192 in about 10 minutes time. We took it in five more minutes.
An awesome display of firepower.
Can you say, "Moonscape"?
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OK to do Artillery would be SO EASY in this game it's not even funny. I have some solutions here for those that might pay attention.
First thing is we need an Artillery piece to operate. Easy deal here because we already have a 5" and 8" piece modeled onboard the ships correct? You take the single 5" mount on the CV's and put it on a vehicle. What vehicle do you use. Easy answer to that one also.
M3 Halftrack is now a T-19 GMC (Gun Motor Carriage 105mm)
T-19 GMC (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/self_propelled_guns/m3_gunmotorcarriage.htm)
Panzer IV is now a Sdkfz 165 Hummel
Hummel (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/self_propelled/hummel.html)
T-34 is now a SU-122
SU-122 (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/self_propelled_guns/su122.html)
OK we now have several vehicles with Artillery pieces on them, with only needing a limited amount of modeling done by the staff at HTC. Should be easy for them to modify what they already have right?? They would need to set the end stops for the traverse of the guns, and basically give them all the 5" single mount off the CV's we already have. It's close enough to the guns these things had to work for our purposes in the game.
Fielding the things would be easy too. Make it possible to take a formation of guns (like bombers) for a modest perk cost (say 5 points for a formation) and free if a single. They would use the same targeting system already used by the ship guns when used in "land" mode. They would also have a direct fire capability if your in sight of the target and not doing indirect fire. Give them the abillity to fire a red colored smoke round for spotting purposes and the forward observers in other GV's or aircraft can call in adjustments for fire. Regular vehicle supplies can resupply the guns with shells from a M3 half track.
Give them all say a 15 second delay from the time they stop to being able to fire the gun, as these things did not fire on the move.
I'm sure some things might need to be "tweaked" to get it perfect but the concept is so simple I'm surprised it's not been done already.
As a former "Red Leg" / "Gun Bunny" / Artilleryman I would LOVE to see this in the game. Come on HiTech give us some BIG guns to play with.
Artillery - The King of Battle:aok
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Artillery would be really useful. It would be a standoff weapon, but really vulnerable.
I.E. An M8 would be able to go out and quickly out maneuver and kill them.
Though, I'm not sure if I want the artillery (mainly for towns) to use the same point and click CV interface, or not.
Another upside of this is you can use 88mm flaks in several roles if you go this path. HE, AT, and AAA.
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I'm happy that this may start an Artillary movement for this game. It would be very easy to use and in all fairness would have to be vulnerable to air attack.
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Well the guns I picked for my earlier post would be easy to do. They are all modified versions of vehicles we already have. Based on that some would be better protected than others. The SU-122 for instance would need a tank or a large bomb to kill it as it was built on the T-34 chassis. The USSR used this thing as an assult gun in addition to a "field" artillery piece. The Hummel was built on the Panzer-IV chassis but was not that heavily armored as it was intended to be used as field artillery. Easier to kill than the SU-122. Both of those are tracked vehicles though so they would be slow. The T-19 on the other hand is lightly armored but will move fairly fast, you have the speed advantage. You hear tanks coming your way, pull up stakes and move out to anouther position.
Though, I'm not sure if I want the artillery (mainly for towns) to use the same point and click CV interface, or not.
Lasersailor184, do you mind if I ask why? Real artillery uses maps to hit their target. They know where the guns are, and they calculate the distance and elevation of the target and fire. First round hits within 100 meters of the target are/were not uncommon. In real life it is actually more acurate than that. The gunner in the game would still have to adjust fire to kill a whole town. It would actually be harder than using the 8" guns on the cruiser because the 5" don't do as much damage. Also remember that a artillery piece conducting indirect fire from say behind a hill or trees would not be able to see the town at all. The gunner would be adjusting blind, unless he had a forward observer. The point and click will get you in the town but it's not hard to hit a town anyway. Point and click will not get you on a hanger or ammo bunker or any other point target except by pure luck. For all of the above reason is why I suggested using it, besides it is already in the game.
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Don't forget artillery can be used for defense too. Park it well away from the town, range the map room and wait quietly for the nme troops.
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Wishlist??
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Well, I think the point and click on the map is gamey itself.
I believe you should have to punch in coordinates manually.
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I agree that the point and click is a little gamey, but without it how would you even get close? You still need a map to generate a range and bearing to target and the clipboard is all we have. The scale on the clipboard map is 1 to 25 miles. There is no way to get it acurate enough to plot artillery without the point and click. If there was I would be all for it, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Easy! You put in the co-ordinates and then rely on the FOO or spotter plane to fine adjust the co-ordinates. You can't make it too easy - and this way we get co-operation, organisation and maybe an excuse for a jeep (see above) - :aok
In fact - it's tempting to think about mortars - OTH that's maybe a bit difficult to develop.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Well, I think the point and click on the map is gamey itself.
I believe you should have to punch in coordinates manually.
I am with Sailor on this one.
I REALLY liked the system used in DAWN OF ACES where you had to range in the target by observation. Fire one round then correct - left, right, up or down. When on target you call in a barrage.
The M-7 PRIEST, WESPE, SEXTON and others would be great for this.
NOTE: If I am correct - the Soviet SU-122 was an "Assault Gun" not a Self-propelled Artillery gun like those listed above. It couldn't elevate it's gun to fire like regular artillery but was a direct fire weapon.
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Originally posted by Martyn
Easy! You put in the co-ordinates and then rely on the FOO or spotter plane to fine adjust the co-ordinates. You can't make it too easy - and this way we get co-operation, organisation and maybe an excuse for a jeep (see above) - :aok
In fact - it's tempting to think about mortars - OTH that's maybe a bit difficult to develop.
Like I said it would be cool to do this but the question I have of you guys that don't want the point and click is HOW do you get the co-ordinates from a 1-25 mile scale map and still get your spotting round within at least a mile of the target????
When I worked Battalion Fire Direction Control for HHB 1/171 FA, we plotted our fires on a 1-250 meter scale map and we still accepted a 50 meter error as acceptable for a first round. We measured bearing in Mils not degrees. 6400 mils vs. 360 degrees in a circle. It's more accurate that way. I used to do this for a living so I do understand ALL the little things that must be done properly to get a first round hit with Artillery. I'm also talking "old" school artillery here, no GPS or computers. We did it with speed squares, charge slide rules, and hand drawn fire charts, and we were good enough to take a 8" projectile from a M110A2, and land it inside a dumpster from 14 miles.
The point and click makes it easy enough for everone to use. KISS principle here. Besides it's only a game.
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Sounds good enough to me to use the map to generate the first co-ordinates. They're not going to be spot on anyway as the map itself isn't that good - resolution wise anyway.
Once entered the co-ordinates can be adjusted manually.
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NOTE: If I am correct - the Soviet SU-122 was an "Assault Gun" not a Self-propelled Artillery gun like those listed above. It couldn't elevate it's gun to fire like regular artillery but was a direct fire weapon. [/B]
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/self_propelled_guns/su122.html
The pic here shows a SU-122 with an elevated gun. You are correct that it was used as an assault gun, however it was also capable of indirect fire missions. The primary reason I picked that one is because it is based off of a vehicle we already have...the T-34.
The whole purpose of this thread is to figure out a way to make it all work, not pick it apart.
If you don't like something about my idea, thats fine, bring me a better idea with some details of how we can get HiTech to bring it into the game.
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HiTech migh bring it into the game if we sponsored it. Anyone fancy a whip-round? :D
- Hey I've just thought, if we have artillery we can do 21 gun salutes! (dunno why though
:confused: )
- and we can have long range artillery fights
- and if we capture bases close to nme cities we can flatten them from the ground
- and we can station units close to the coast and protect it from nme fleets
- and it isn't much extra effort to create anti-tank units (88mm or 75mm guns), although I'm not toooo sure what tactical benefits they'd give... fast deployment?
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If there was artillery though, you'd have to take some infantry/armor support with you or else enemy halftracks with infantry should be allowed to overrun you quickly.
Thus, when the arena full artillery would require coordination with yer buds.
But it would be great in tank town, forward armor could have coordinates called in for anything they spot if you are in the commanders seat.
Also, it would be quite susceptible ot air attack, but teh payoff would be firepower.
In quiet arenas, neglected corners, etc. you could pork a base or supply setup PDQ.
Sakai
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Oh yeh! This sounds cool. I still like the idea of having an excuse for radio trucks too!
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Originally posted by Jester
I am with Sailor on this one.
I REALLY liked the system used in DAWN OF ACES where you had to range in the target by observation. Fire one round then correct - left, right, up or down. When on target you call in a barrage.
The M-7 PRIEST, WESPE, SEXTON and others would be great for this.
NOTE: If I am correct - the Soviet SU-122 was an "Assault Gun" not a Self-propelled Artillery gun like those listed above. It couldn't elevate it's gun to fire like regular artillery but was a direct fire weapon.
You are correct Jester. The SU-122 and the SU-152 for that matter are
assault guns. Direct fire only.
Mike
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Originally posted by Hornet33
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/self_propelled_guns/su122.html
The pic here shows a SU-122 with an elevated gun. You are correct that it was used as an assault gun, however it was also capable of indirect fire missions. The primary reason I picked that one is because it is based off of a vehicle we already have...the T-34.
The whole purpose of this thread is to figure out a way to make it all work, not pick it apart.
If you don't like something about my idea, thats fine, bring me a better idea with some details of how we can get HiTech to bring it into the game.
I really like the artillery idea. And thanks for posting the link to the SU-122
had no idea that they could elevate their main gun that high.
Mike
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I am happy that you all have positive things to say about my idea. My idea originally was to have simple artillery batteries and not complicate the game and take away the fun.
However if HT can incorporate all of your mechinized ideas somehow and keep it simple, the more power right?
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Posted this in the FAC thread too. Pyro talked about his plane additions briefly in a 2001 post:
Fi 156- I think it'd be a lot of fun to fly with such a radically different flight envelope. It could be useful for artillery spotting when working out of a vehicle base.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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This idea actually comes up every 3 or 4 months and I'm always for it. I would love to see some more GV's represented in the game. The squad I belong to has a dedicated ground squad. The set we have now we are limited to Panzers, Tigers, Osties, and M3's. Thats pretty much it. The rest of the GV set right now is almost useless.
I try to do as many different things in this game as I can, fighter, bombers, GV's.
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Hornet33 is right! For the first 4 years I was in the Corps. I shot surface to surface missiles at tanks and the company I was in had an 81mm mortar platoon. I became a close friend with a guy in the mortar PLT and I’m still in touch with him some 23 years later. So I gave him a call and asked about ballistics. He doesn’t know anything about Aces High but said Hornet is correct, the maps and computations would be very difficult for HTC to create. So I said all that to say this, if you want an artillery piece back up Hornet’s idea and make it easy on HTC. I want one so take what you have, a 5” off the ship, mount it on a GV and use the current map click method / algorithms in the program and we have a new toy to play with. My 81mm friend gave me some very strategic ideas about how this can be used, I’m sure Hornet is thinking some of the same things. As for spotting, my friend gave me a very good idea on how to do this but that’s TOP SECERT! I’ll wait till we have artillery before I post that. So I say lets bug HTC for an artillery piece.
DWaves
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How about this for an evil idea for artillery: the Katyusha.
The poor accurary keeps it from being a complete vultch weapon, yet sneaking one in close unseen and loosing it on a field could be devestating if the rockets catch planes rearming. Also a great way to reduce cities in a hurry.
The trucks would carry only one salvo but an M3 could rearm it. For reducing cities the M3 makes sense, but if they're anywhere in vis range of enemy planes the smoke trails will give away the position.
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The Katusha, Werbilwind(spelling) and Calopie(spelling again) would all be neat little rocket launchers. Would love to see them in the game. The only problem with them is that they would have to be modeled from scratch. The vehicles and rockets. I'm trying to keep this concept KISS right now so HiTech can take a good look at it and maybe have his model guru's do something quick and easy with it.
I am pleased to see the positive coments about this idea. I hope HiTech takes notice and realizes this is an element of the game that needs to be adressed.
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Wirbelwind was a quad-20mm version of the Ostwind ... a SPAA vehicle.
A Katyusha may actually be easier for HTC to do than a proper artillery piece. Consider that it's supposed to be inaccurate for starters - which simplifies the model and dealing with complaints after the fact. Next, the game already has rockets - so a lot of the work of modeling the round is done - just now extend the trajectory to reach 5 miles. The truck bed - well he has trucks now. The time to reload a salvo (assuming an M3 brought supplies) is also a pretty wide open calculation - which means fewer complaints. And, the Katyusha is very visible when it starts shooting - so that means no whining about "hidden artillery porking our base."
What I like is the asymmetrical nature of the thing. It'll be quick and hit hard, but have no staying power (w/o support vehicles) and no ability to hide once it opens up. At the same time, if a platoon get within range of a city they should be able to pretty much flatten it in one salvo and allow a capture if the defenders didn't react very quickly. And if The Horde is in play, well sneak 2 or 3 Katy's close to their base and open up on the rearm points.
-DoK
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I would like this manable 88s, vulcher killers and antitank option
(http://www.naritafamily.com/Scalemodel/reference/Aberdeen/Flak36/Flak36_01.JPG)
Try to imagine the LTARs in this 88s:)
(http://www.anselm.edu/academic/history/hdubrulle/WarandRevolution/graphics/Paintings%202004/Air%20War%20Battery%20of%2088mm%20Flak.jpg)
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Wirbelwind was a quad-20mm version of the Ostwind ... a SPAA vehicle.
A Katyusha may actually be easier for HTC to do than a proper artillery piece. Consider that it's supposed to be inaccurate for starters - which simplifies the model and dealing with complaints after the fact. Next, the game already has rockets - so a lot of the work of modeling the round is done - just now extend the trajectory to reach 5 miles. The truck bed - well he has trucks now. The time to reload a salvo (assuming an M3 brought supplies) is also a pretty wide open calculation - which means fewer complaints. And, the Katyusha is very visible when it starts shooting - so that means no whining about "hidden artillery porking our base."
What I like is the asymmetrical nature of the thing. It'll be quick and hit hard, but have no staying power (w/o support vehicles) and no ability to hide once it opens up. At the same time, if a platoon get within range of a city they should be able to pretty much flatten it in one salvo and allow a capture if the defenders didn't react very quickly. And if The Horde is in play, well sneak 2 or 3 Katy's close to their base and open up on the rearm points.
-DoK
Your right about the quad 20mm, I was thinking of the nebelwaffer(spelling). It's the rocket launcher trailer, also known as the screaming mimi.
I have to disagree with your other points made in this post however. Why would we want to make an artillery piece inaccurate? Most tube artillery is very accurate if the gun is laid properly, you have good FO's and a good FDC section. Also the 5" guns I'm talking about using off the CV's have a distinct smoke burst when fired. That will leave a fire signature for aircraft and GV's to spot and find the guns if they are not carefull. Shoot and scoot is the proper way to use artillery. If the guns set up and never move they will be detroyed. Also as I stated earlier in one of my post the 5"er doesn't do that much damage in one salvo. I don't think introducing this into the game will unbalance the MA to any great extent, other than to push base defense out beyond the perimiter of the field in question. Max range on the guns is only 11 miles. Well within historical specs for artillery. The U.S. Long Tom 155mm was capable of shooting to almost 16 miles with full charge. The self propeled version of that gun (M40 I believe) was built on a sherman chassis.
Regardless someone will complain about getting killed by artillery. Thats war though. No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
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Having pin-point accurate arty will result in a whole new generation of spawn-camping like behavior. As well as open a new avenue of complaint about modeling accuracy.
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Pin Point yes, however the system in place now is no where near pin point. You click the map and if your good you can hit the town. Thats a what??? 300 square meter target area??In real life when artillery is fired it hits in the target area alot closer than 300 meters.
When I worked FDC we would plot a mission, send it to the guns for 1 spotting round and 9 out of 10 times we would get a call from the FO's to drop or raise 50 or left or right 50 "Fire for Effect" and kill the target with the second shot. Again that was with NO computers or GPS. Slide rulers and a hand drawn map, and the guns we were firing were no more accurate than their WWII counterparts. Artillery since WWI has always been very accurate and effective so why dumb it down for a WWII simulation?
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Originally posted by Hornet33
... Artillery since WWI has always been very accurate and effective so why dumb it down for a WWII simulation?
Because of how it would end up get (ab)used in the AH MA.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
... Artillery since WWI has always been very accurate and effective so why dumb it down for a WWII simulation?
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Because of how it would end up get (ab)used in the AH MA.
Having pin-point accurate arty will result in a whole new generation of spawn-camping like behavior. As well as open a new avenue of complaint about modeling accuracy.
Yup, it would be (ab)used, by all sides. "All's fair in love and WAR." Spawn camping, I hate it when my spawn point is camped, on the other hand I love spawn camping, especially when newbes keep spawning out. Since I would not be able to hit my own spawn point from my base neither would the other side. So the only thing I could do to a spawn point with an arty piece is hit the enemy spawn point from my base. But the 5" doesn't hit that hard and the point and click is not that accurate. So if I have countrymen out; and close to; the spawn point "camping" and I start shooting there's a 50/50 chance of hitting an enemy or kill shooting myself. This makes for an interesting and new twist to the game, don't you think????? So if your going to spawn camp you had better get some distance from the point or you could kill your buddy at the base. So the only safe and accurate way to use arty in this respect is to sit on a hill over looking the spawn point, ie "Forward Observer" (FO). If it's rather flat you might be albe to see but most areas are slightly hilly, thus you can't see anything unless you get close. Thus you have to get close or calling and adjusting fire will not be very accurate or will not work at all. I see this as a new, yet very simple way of making the game more interesting. How close do you get, well as Col. Jessep would say;
"roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 80 yards away from 4000 Cubans who are trained to kill me."
I see an arty piece used only in coordinated attacks since alone it's not going to be that effective. Once spotted from the air your toast, an M8 or M3 with pintail guns has a better chance. You need lots of air cover and a shot and scoot method. Let's not forget that just one will not take down a town in a timely fashion, you will need two or more. Use of "Arty" will take more team work!
DWaves
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imagine the LTARs with this: a dual 128mm FlaK
(http://www.airpower.at/news03/0813_luftkrieg_ostmark/dual128-2.jpg)
or the quad 20mm
(http://www.45thdivision.org/Veterans/Wims157/20mmAAQuad.jpg)
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Waves, the sad truth is that players will gravitate towards whatever technique gets them the biggest bang for the least effort. Learning to fly a WW2 figther, deflection shooting, A2A tactics, and the characteristics of all the planes is a hell of a lot more work than sitting home one afternoon dialing in the range on a 105mm howitzer so they don't need a spotter.
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I'm still trying to see the issue with this. How many people do you think will give up the planes and tanks and just sit in a gun all the time?
But for the sake of aurgument, say your right Doc and it leads to cheesey game play. I would like to hear a detailed allternative to aiming the guns for indirect fire other than what we have now. I've read several post where people are saying you should have to punch in the coordinates manually. OK how do you get the coordinates?? This game is "supposed" to be realistic as far as flight models and such go, but you want to make the guns less accurate than they were in real life for the sake of game play. That goes against everything that HTC has created here. Also how are you going to spawn camp with an indirect fire weapons system? You can fire into the spawn area and might get lucky with a shot or two, but the odds are against you.
Sorry but I fail to see the validity of your aurgument.
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I never said make artillery less accurate than it was. What I said was that an area weapon like the Katyusha would prevent the kind of spawn-camping tactics that the more accurate artillery would foster.
Trust me ... if there's a way to accurately range find where to drop a shell to catch a plane on its take-off roll, players will find it.
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All these posts and all I can think about is all the dumpsters you have abused hornet :cry
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Ya could have at least had the decency to furball it in a close range knife fight instead of wacking it from 14 miles away....
Ya BIG BULLY
:furious
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Yeah Mussie but the problem with a knife fight is you end up with blood all over your shoes and clothes. Kinda messy and you stink afterwards. With artillery you pull the lanyard, fire the shot, rinse and repeat a few times and then go kick back and relax until the next fire mission.:D
Actually we didn't blow up dumpsters. We got to blow up some old duece and half trucks a few times. Couple of old jeeps once, that was cool to watch.
As far as using artillery to vulch planes on the runways of airfields, I will pay money to see that happen under the following conditions. The artillery must be beyond visual range of the field. You must have a forward observer record the kills in addition to the artillery commander record the kills and you must land those kills with at least 5 to your credit. Repeat kills of the same person do not count and the film must be shot in the MA. We get artillery in the game, $50 to the first person to pull it off without having his buddies switch sides and allow themselves to be vulched.
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Hornet, it ain't always about the points. Many of the most heinous abuses in these games were done simply to pi$$ off the other side.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Hornet, it ain't always about the points. Many of the most heinous abuses in these games were done simply to pi$$ off the other side.
Oh I agree completely with that statement. With the artillery set up the way I envision it, it would be so close to impossible to camp a field and vulch with impunity with indirect artillery that I will put $50 up to back up my claim. Could you hit the town with the first shot? You bet, but like I've said, a town is a rather large target area. Not hitting it the first shot would mean you suck. At the same time a single 5" shell will not drop a bunch of buildings in a town. It will require some time to do significant damage, at the same time causing the enemy to look for the guns.
Artillery is nothing more than a tool, that was used by everyone in WWII on a large scale.
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Arn't there enough tools in AH as it is :p
Sorry Hornet... Could not resisit
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Because of how it would end up get (ab)used in the AH MA.
But it would be sooooooooo vulnerable without supporting armor and infantry and air cover.
Sure it would be a porker's delight for lightly held/undefended bases, but that's already the case so . . . .?
Sakai
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Hornet, it ain't always about the points. Many of the most heinous abuses in these games were done simply to pi$$ off the other side.
That's why war is hell.
;-)
Sakai