Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: aknimitz on December 20, 2001, 07:16:00 PM
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OK ... at first I was convinced I knew what to do to this man. Treason I say, give him the death penalty. But the I got to visiting with pops, and reflecting back on my legal education. I dont understand how this could possibly be treason. It is not as if he was over there fighting with the Americans, and then secretly giving information to the Taliban. Or as if he actually aided in the September 11 attacks.
What does seem clear is that he chose to take sides against the United States for whatever reason. He chose to oppose US policies and beliefs, and join the Taliban. Is he not entitled to do this? I would certainly think he is. If we went to war with say China ... and lets say a large number of Americans of Chinese decent went to China to fight for China ... would they be subject to the death penalty? Are they entitled to oppose United States policy? Yes, I think they should be.
Now, what happens when American citizens do this? Treason? I just dont think so. Seems to me that the best thing to do is take away their citizenship, and ban them from the US. If they want to support the Taliban (or China) - so be it. But fight against us, or take sides against us, and you aint comin' back to live with us.
Nim
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It ain't that simple. The Taliban has strong anti-American overtones, and they are very clear about them. The U.S.S. Cole, the first WTC attack, etc. made clear what they were about. Our young friend picked his side. He needs to be accountable. Law says treason is punishable by death? He knew this. A good talibani is willing to die for his beliefs? Let's put his belief to the test.
This is no time for going soft.
And more... how much easier would it be to pass as an American than an American citizen? How easy it would be for him to be in a position to do worse than was done 9/11? Turn him loose? Are you crazy? In war you diminish the number of enemies you have.
This ain't fishin', and we shouldn't tag and release.
:mad:
[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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He was part of an organization that was in conflict w/the U.S. He is a traitor, plain and simple. He should be treated as such. The U.S has MANY ways to display you oppostion to current policy. Joining the side that your fighting against isnt one of them.. as I said before... what he did was treason.
xBAT
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kill
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sorry. He was captured with an assault rifle AMONGST the ranks of enemy soldiers, fighting ALONG an enemy the US has declared war upon.
It is TREASON.
You think there would be any argument if he had been found with a Mauser rifle in the Sigfried Line fighting along Nazi troops in the 1940's?
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Ok, the kid sucks pond water and deserves death, but he has not broken any laws. He was holding an AK and may have even fired upon NA soldiers. No law broken there. He may have fired on a plane going by.....stupid, possible malicious mischeif, but treason hasn't happened. There was no treason if there was no declared war.
We are gonna have to kill him by "accident" :rolleyes:
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Guys, where is the treason? Treason as defined by American law requires some allegiance sworn to the United States (citizenship I assume would work). Seems to me that his fighting for the Taliban should be interpreted as constructive renouncing of his citizenship. Tell me what laws he has broken, and your basis for saying what laws he has broken.
Nim
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I think I'd give him back to the Afganies, they could treat him just like any other foreign Taliban fighter. Maybe you've seen some of what they do to them on the news? :D
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I think you miss the point. This isn't a legalistic debate in my mind, it is a matter of sides and which one he's on. He's an American fighting for them. That seems crystal clear to me.
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Unless he has renounced his citizenship, and I have yet to see any indication he has, he can be tried for treason. While not an open and shut case, there is well more than enough to bring to trial. He could also be charged with conspiracy to commit sedition, conspiracy in the murder of a US citizen (CIA agent), conspiracy to commit terrorism, and any other number of smaller charges originating from those he has chosen to cast his lot with.
A lot of those, by the way, capable of bringing the death penalty just as much as treason.
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He allegedly lost his passport in transit to the point where he was captured initially.
From my limited knowledge of the legal aspects I don't think he deserves the right to still be called an American citizen. To me it seems like he wanted to become a member of Islam and specifically the Taliban. In support of a "true islamic" nation. So he should suffer the same fate as they (other members of the Taliban both foreign and native to Afghanistan) have at the hands of the current government.
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Kieren, human rights. Who says he is on the American side? You can just say, "He was born in this country, never changed his citizenship, was fighting with Taliban, and thus committed treason." Maybe you can, I'm really not sure. Just an interesting issue I think from an International Human Rights perspective.
Nim
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QUOTE:
Seems to me that his fighting for the Taliban should be interpreted as constructive renouncing of his citizenship.
Well according to this idea no American could ever be tried for treason, just imagine if every traitor said this at the trial, "Well judge the second before I commited the treasonous act I was no longer an American and wasnt really betraying my country since I was obviously fighting for my real (whichever new) side."
Sorry thats total BS reasoning.
Once again:
kill
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Walker has not committed treason, thats why he's not being charged with Treason.
He did (not to argue, but...<shrug> ) however break certain laws having to do with providing support to terrorists/terr organizations. We know this because he ~SAID~ he is, was and will be Al-Queda along with other things like support for the WTC attacks.
Now what happens is he comes home, screams "Patty Hearst" syndrome, gets the bleeding hearts on his side, winds up getting a slap on the wrist and disappears from national thought. He won't do 3yrs.
....uhhm, thats not to say some very irked patriotic psycho won't do the guy lol. THATs what I beleive sweet little johnny has to worry about.
Does anyone besides me see pix of this clown and want to knock his teeth out?
Tumor
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Nim,
Go do some reading in the law library.Treason carries an extremely high burden of proof, requiring at least 2 eyewitnesses to a treasonous act or a confession,neither of which is likely in this case.I am NOT defending him but I highly doubt that treason will be either charged or successfully prosecuted against him.There are numerous other charges more likely,most of which do NOT carry the death penalty as it turns out. We shall see.
kbman
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Who knows,maybe he was a American Spy calling in airstrikes and infultrating the enemy.Remember Lee Harvey Oswald?Who trained him and paid for his ticket home from USSR?He was a "Traitor" in the press....It only came out after he was captured that there was an American in the Tailiban and JWB is already taking a soft stance on what to do with him.You can bet the CIA has infultrators in every enemy organization,just as the Terrorists have infultrated our society...You never know.
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Trust me Sirloin Jonny Talib SF BayArea wonderchild isnt the CIA type.....
BTW now we find out his father is a gay, little wonder huh?
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"BTW now we find out his father is a gay, little wonder huh?"
So you're suggesting that deviancy is inherited?
Or that all gays should go to the Zyklon B farms, to prevent treason?
Or what?
You disgust me, you nasty little totalitarian freak.
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He fought for the Taliban, yes?
Or was did he join the Al Qaeda?
If he fought for the Taliban, he should of been "caught in the crossfire". No point in taking a traitor (and he is) into custody.
If he fought for the Al Qaeda, he's a terrorist, and should of been run over with a tank.
-SW
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LoL Seeker you crack me up!
Just commenting on the environment little Johhny Talib had in the Bay Area, all progressive peaceful inclusive and loving toejam.
Zyklon B, yea thats rich. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
LoL Seeker you crack me up!
Just commenting on the environment little Johhny Talib had in the Bay Area, all progressive peaceful inclusive and loving toejam.
Zyklon B, yea thats rich. :rolleyes:
Actually you're using his fathers sexuality as an exscuse to bash Gays , and the "SF hippy" socialist attitude that you hate, using the hostility towards John Walker to back it up.
It's the usual juvenile toejam that wannabe skinheads pull on their way to burn a few crosses.
Tronsky
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Just commenting on the environment little Johhny Talib had in the Bay Area, all progressive peaceful inclusive and loving toejam.
LOL, I sense anger here. Were you abused by a hippie when you were younger? Maybe a multicolored bus ran over your dog? Gay guys hit on you too often? :p
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Nimitz, he could have renounced his citizenship at any time had he so desired.
I'm sure that if you squint just right you can see this as a complex matter with many different points of view, but you're squinting so hard your eyelids may cramp.
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...or you can just let the rage completely cloud your vision.
As KB said, they are going to have one helluva time proving treason. The government is in a tough spot. Congress has not declared war. Bush stated that military tribunals would not be used to try American citizens. That means criminal court and if the "authorities" did not Mirandize young Mr. Walker before they started interogating him, then all of his statements will be inadmissable in court.
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In Marin County, Calif., treason is just another alternative lifestyle.
BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Thursday, December 6, 2001 12:01 a.m. EST
Source: http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=95001558 (http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=95001558)
Were the story of John Walker Lindh not so horribly real, it could play as a parody of our times. Mr. Walker, a 20-year-old American, goes to war in Afghanistan. Except he fights not for America, but against us, on the side of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. By the time he's captured, AK-47 in hand, Mr. Walker is filthy, wounded and famished, but to a persistent reporter from Newsweek he manages to gasp out his support for the Islamic terrorist attacks that, out of a clear blue sky, killed more than 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11.
Which sounds bad. But hey, dude, John--a k a "Sulayman," a k a "Abdul Hamid"--is from Marin County, Calif., a place where it is, like, totally uncool to make value judgments.
From Marin, the young Mr. Walker's parents spot him on the TV news and hustle to share with the world the alternative reality that shaped this self-described jihadi in the first place. Their son John is a spiritual,
questing guy, we are told, a pacifist at heart, young and maybe susceptible to brainwashing. John's mother, Marilyn Walker, tells the press that her son is just a "sweet, shy kid," "totally not streetwise," a peaceful, scholarly type who wanted to help poor people. His father, Frank Lindh, announces that John "is a really good boy" even if he does deserve "a little kick in the butt for not telling me what he was up to."
A Marin musician, Neil Lavin, tells the Associated Press that Mr. Walker was in Afghanistan on a spiritual quest, quite possibly a rewarding one: "I imagine he lost himself there. Or found himself." A family friend, Bill Jones, tells the San Francisco Chronicle that fighting for bin Laden was just "a youthful indiscretion."
Even outside Marin, a lot of folks just don't seem to get it. In one account after another, there is the same perplexed tone: How could it happen that John Walker Lindh, the second of three children reared by broad-minded parents in the emotionally supportive 1990s, in a 3,000-square-foot home in one of the wealthiest enclaves on the California coast, ended up questing away with an assault weapon on the enemy side in Afhanistan?
Newsweek quotes Mr. Lindh, his father, as saying, "I can't connect the dots between where John was and where John is." The magazine concludes: "Neither, it seems, can the rest of the world."
Oh really? The dots we've seen so far--especially in Newsweek and on CNN--invite some definite connecting.
What jumps out is a sorry sketch of the real world colliding with American culture at its most neurotically all-validating no-fault New Age nadir of nattering nonsense. No where in the nation could this particular picture have more naturally taken shape than in that Mecca of moral muddling, Marin County--a place salted with rich aging radicals of the 1960s, long on dollars but still short on sense. Recite the publicly known details of John Walker's life, and you have a narrative in which every authority figure in sight was so busy validating John and his alternative ways that no one stepped in soon enough to save him, or stop him.
And what he ended up doing, as reported so far, does not sound good. To venture a word that on the evidence seems to have gone missing from the Marin vocabulary (except when invoked to mean good"), it sounds bad.
American authorities now face the job of deciding whether Mr. Walker deserves to be tried for treason, which can carry a death penalty.
By his own account, Mr. Walker went to Afghanistan six months ago and trained for combat at a camp for supporters of Osama bin Laden. He fought with Taliban-linked Pakistanis against India, in Kashmir--a place riven for the past 10 years by terrorist violence and kidnappings. He then returned to Afghanistan to fight on the side of the Taliban against Americans and the
Northern Alliance. Mr. Walker was captured among the al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who began the ferocious prison riot that killed a CIA agent, David Spann--a man who gave his life for the country John Walker betrayed.
But hey, give old Abdul Hamid a chance. Named originally for John Lennon, John Walker was raised in an atmosphere so swamped with tolerance it's small wonder he began to drown. His parents are now going through what they describe as an amicable divorce. His father is a Catholic. His mother
dabbles in Buddhism, which according to Newsweek she credits for exposing John to a
philosophy "very inclusive of all people" and imbued with a "sense of social justice."
John spent only a few months at a regular high school before transferring to the "alternative" Tamiscal High School, a place for artistic types specializing in independent study that, according to the school's Web site "works differently in many ways." Students are left to pilot their own
journeys of self-discovery, while checking in with teachers once a week. At age 16, John read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," and in it found himself yet another alternative--he converted to Islam.
In keeping with Islamic laws, Mr. Walker grew a beard and began praying regularly at a local mosque. He took to wearing Islamic robes and a turban, while his parents gushed over what they are still lauding as his
"alternative course." He graduated early from the flexible Tamiscal High, and at 17, with his parents' blessing, he went to Yemen to study Arabic. He came back to California, briefly, but in February 2000 he returned to Yemen. Newsweek reports: "It was during John's second trip to Yemen, says his father, that he became aware that John had friends who had been to Chechnya to fight with Muslim rebels against the Russian army. One friend had been killed in the fighting."
Last October, John and his father had what Mr. Lindh described to CNN's Larry King as "a little father/son debate, much like my dad and I used to have over the Vietnam war" (was the young Mr. Lindh consorting with
combat-ready Viet Cong?). Mr. Lindh was upset that the American sailors killed in the terrorist bombing of the USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden were the same age as John. John e-mailed him back that the terrorist bombing was justified.
Mr. Lindh concluded, reports Newsweek, that "My days of molding him were
over." But the days of funding him went right on. When John moved to Pakistan, enrolled in a madrassa near the Afghan border and asked his dad for money, Mr. Lindh wired $1,200. John told his parents he was heading "somewhere cooler" for a while and disappeared into Afghanistan. Cool, huh?
And here we all are, in the midst of a real war with American lives on the line. And there are Mr. Lindh and Ms. Walker, who say they were horrified by Sept. 11, pleading for mercy for their son who joined the enemy. And they still don't get it. Mr. Lindh, who tells the world, "I'm proud of John,"insists "there's no indication he's done anything wrong." In the world they
inhabit, could John ever do anything wrong? When he was only 17 they deemed him mature enough to don turban and robes and take a voyage to Yemen. Now that he's 20 and has arrived at the Taliban terminus of his personal journey, suddenly he's too young to know his own mind. But through it all,
says his father, "he found this other spiritual path, and I have always supported that."
It's painful to watch. It's tragic. But that doesn't make it all right. Somewhere between the kid in Marin with a book and the man in Afghanistan with a gun, there's a line that has been crossed. Connect the dots and you'll see it.
*****
Ms. Rosett is a member of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board. Her column appears Thursdays on OpinionJournal.com and in The Wall Street Journal Europe as "Letter From America."
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Reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons where you see young Flanders and his parents. He does whatever he wants because the parents don't want to punish him.
"Doc, you've got to help us. We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
See, it's shoddy parenting that's screwing up today's youth. This should be the best example that it ain't the violent movies or video games screwing up kids today and giving them motives to shoot up schools, kill other people, pull fake guns on police officers, or even joining an enemy of the United States because he was allowed to do whatever he wants.
This kinda garbage ain't gonna stop anytime soon either.
-SW
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Come On People!
How many kids came out of Marin County and joined terrorist groups? How many kids with "inclusive" upbringings in this den-of-psychos are in the al quaida(sp?)? answer: Well, 1 that we know of, but darnit, people are being understanding! How dare they!
How many strictly raised right winger kids end up in the KKK or Michigan Militia or Nazi Movement? Unless your head is in the sand you know this is a MUCH bigger number and a MUCH bigger problem.
Weirdos exist in all areas, it isn't tolerance that is the problem! Its the lack of it. OBL wants nothing as much as for us to reduce our level of tolerance for all groups in our society. Do you really want to assist him in his quest? :confused:
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SALUTE TAH GUT!!!!
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"Michigan Militia "
They're next on the target list. Just after the Girl Scouts ;)
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Sorry, you're on our side or you're not, the line is pretty clear. He has taken up arms against us. I don't know what else a person can do to make his intentions clearer.
Let's not pull some sort of wrangling defense on his behalf. I don't care where he came from, I don't care about his parents or his upbringing, I don't care about his dad's sexual orientation, I don't care if he was a good kid in the neighborhood- I just don't care. All I know is he is a kid that, had I been staring down the barrel of his gun,he would have fired. Please tell me, what else do I need to know?
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Yea... I feel for him. I bet he'd never take aim and blow some GI away would he? Naaaaa... never. Give me friggen break.
Hang his bellybutton from a tree, bury him in an unmarked grave and walk away. He's a filthy POS.
xBAT
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There's the legal side of it, which'll make it hard to try him for treason.
Then there's also what Kieran just said: if he got you in his sights in Afghanistan, he would have opened up.
This must be remembered.
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I'm looking back to see where I said anything about forgiving this kid......nope. He is lower than a creeping slime mold and deserves the worst the NA has to offer.
OTOH blaming all of the "liberals" in Marin County or anywhere else for John Walker without looking to see where all those people wearing white sheets come from is just STUPID! This is about an idiot kid from an idiot family. Stop trying to make some kind of ludicrous point about your right wing agenda out of it.
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This guy is the first thing since 9.11 that scares me a bit. Much more than spookey stories, by the media, about germ war fare, and dirty bombs.
Individually he is just a dumb bellybutton punk. But, imagine him used by UBL. No home land security measure would stop the guy. Some rich white kid from Cal. Come on, they would never take a second look.
On top of that, the politicians could use a guy like this, as an excuse to start chipping away at our constitutional rights. This, the most likely, and troubling of the two.
We need to see him hung. As a message to other fruit cakes. And for our own piece of mind.
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When he was only 17 they deemed him mature enough to don turban and robes and take a voyage to Yemen. Now that he's 20 and has arrived at the Taliban terminus of his personal journey, suddenly he's too young to know his own mind.
Responsibility & Accountability. That's all there is too it, really.
He made his choice; time now to stand accountable for it.
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Don't call him a kid.He is a man fully grown and responsible for his own decisions no matter how and where he grew up.We have fighting men over there the same age and younger than he is.I'm sure some of them had worse upbringings and still made the right decisions.
Give him to the Northern Alliance.They captured him.We will probably see a repeat of the O.J.circus if they bring him here.
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Hmmm I wonder what john "Mike" Span's family thinks about it? or what the 10,000 plus orphans from 9-11 will think when they're old enough to understand?
side note:
I lived in Marin Co. for about 6 months when I was 17. Party towns :) I lived in Kentfield...
Isn't Marin in the district that Condit represents? Just an interesting thought...
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]
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Don't call him a kid.He is a man fully grown and responsible for his own decisions
Didn't mean to imply he wasn't. I call everyone his age a kid, including 18yr old soldiers....and they are kids compared to me. :cool:
But please try to do better than to pick nits out of the sentences. What you wrote has no relevence to the overall meaning of the post.
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Condit represents Modesto not Marin....Modesto is farm country and usually VERY Republican.
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I don't know a thing about Marin County and don't care to. It is totally irrelevant, as you say.
There isn't a whole lot of thinking that needs to be applied here, except perhaps how best to do what needs done.
Easymo, that is exactly what I was alluding to higher in the thread. Domestic terrorists are much harder to catch. No way they let this guy walk- it sets a precedent we cannot live with.
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Condit represents Modesto not Marin....Modesto is farm country and usually VERY Republican.
hehe Modesto is like 20 or so miles north of Marin if I remember, to me that qualifies as the same area :D Real nice country over there, I used to love taking acid and riding my bike up Mt. Tam. OH those were the days. I do have to say though that of all the places I've lived, that place had the highest amount of strange people per capita. But it's so freakin beautiful up there that it's easy to over look the wierdo's.
[edit]
They gave McVeigh the needle, I don't see how they can not give this guy the same punishment. The media keeps calling this punk an "American Taliban" Well he said himself that he was Al Queda. So in my view he is at a minimum partialy responsible and totaly punishable for september 11.
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]
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Hehe, musta been the good stuff Udie. Modesto is 100 miles east of Marin in the central valley.
Very different in terms of both country and temperament. I agree with you about the Marin area though. There is a reason that it has one of the highest real estate values in the country.
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I don't really understand what the problem is... it seems he should be treated the same as any Taliban captured in Afghanistan. Turn him over to the Afghan government and let them decide his fate.
Just make it clear that he will not be re-issued a US passport for the one he "lost".
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Hehe, musta been the good stuff Udie. Modesto is 100 miles east of Marin in the central valley.
Very different in terms of both country and temperament. I agree with you about the Marin area though. There is a reason that it has one of the highest real estate values in the country.
I must be thinking of Napa Valley, it was back in '87 when I lived there so... :rolleyes:
last hijack post I promise :)
[edit] I was thinking about Navato. Sorry my mistake :)
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]
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Well trotski what can I say you found me out..... :rolleyes:
But seriously belive it or not Ive got nothing against gays except on a political level. Really the same gripe I have against any of the "special" groups around these days. Its basically their BS that they wanna be seen/treated the same as everyone else, except of course when it might benefit them. Heres an example:
A guy I knew from Junior High decided to "come out" in the school newspaper, writing a delightful little article about his "Starry night in the Castro" (Castro District of SF, a sort of Gay Mecca)where he described a night out of dancing with his boyfriend and all that. No problem with that its his business and his life experience to enjoy and express. But soon he gets some gay hero scolarship from the State and gets pretty much accepted to any University he wants. Yea the gays arent any diffiernt and shouldnt be treated any different, riiiiight.
Toad has the right idea though my comment is directed at the permissive and culturally relativstic parents that just say every culure is OK and there is no such thing as bad chioces and lifestyles. Its directed at that and you all know even and especially if you dont want to admit it that many SF Bay Area gays are among the leading members of that line of thought.
Remember trotski gays are no diffrent than anyone, this also means they are open to free criticism like everyone else.
No more double standards.
And again about Johnny Talib:
kill
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Until gays have the same rights as everyone else Grun(eg,right to marriage,same sex benifits,adoption etc..)they are not "fair game" as you suggest.They are the" discriminated against"
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Tah Gut
Wasn't meaning to nitpick your words.I'm just tired of hearing liberals on TV refering to him as misquided youth,not really old enough to make decisions,just a kid, etc etc etc.They are already building a case for leniency.
ET
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You have a problem with gays on a political level??
riiight...because Gays have it so good as SirLoin already posted
my comment is directed at the permissive and culturally relativstic parents that just say every culure is OK and there is no such thing as bad chioces and lifestyles. Its directed at that and you all know even and especially if you dont want to admit it that many SF Bay Area gays are among the leading members of that line of thought.
sigh, I bet you don't have a clue do you...
You're right, parents should teach descrimination and repression at a young age. We wouldn't want any free thinkers or people making their own choices out there..stinkin up the place.
Be careful Herr Grunherz when doing your washing. Make sure you seperate the whites fom the coloured, you wouldn't want to be the only one to march in a pink hood.
Tronsky
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studmuffins are bad. :eek:
hey I'm talking about British cigarettes! :D
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the guy was over there priorto any actions committed against the US.
He didn't help plan any of it. How do you know if he even fired a shot at an american or an ally of america.
So you don't like him so fediddlein what. Treason?
Sedition?
roadkill......
He needs to be debriefed and interogated but until theres any evidence that he actually did anything illegal y'all are just spewing propaganda.
The same type that led to waco and ruby ridge.
"this guy doesn't like America"
"This guy aint like us"
ah fek it kill the bastard.
Wtf country are we living in?
What should we do with him?
Nothing until theres some evidence that he did something wrong.
There was a sedition trial against neo-nazis in the mid 80's in which none were found guilty of that charge. They actually declared war on america in a signed document and sent it to congress renouncing there citizenship. They actually killed people and robbed amored cars and banks. Shot at and wounded federal agents. The printed counterfiet money by the millions. Again sedition was not provable. They are doing time for the real crimes they did but not for thought crime.
"Nuke the ragheads" and "kill anyone who dont like it "
gimme a break....
[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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I suppose they kept him in the dark about 9/11? I suppose he didn't know about the U.S.S. Cole when he went? I suppose he didn't know about the first WTC blast?
The agenda of both terrorist organization is crystal clear. He joined. He had an assault rifle in hand. As far as I know, the preferred weapon for stalking squirrel isn't a high-powered assault rifle.
One or both of the organizations with which he is affiliated appear to be responsible for terrorism world wide. And don't wag your finger in my face about what America does, that isn't the real issue. The real issue is he is on our side or isn't. Right or wrong he is with America or he is against us. Let's forget the morals lesson too, okay? You see, if his conscience told him it was time to fight the great devil, great. He did. Trouble is, the great devil now owns his ass, and should make an example of him for the next conscience-stricken youth that decides to support an organization that launches terror attacks against our home country.
[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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Article III section 3, US constitution.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture exept during the Life of the Person attainted.
Wotan I don't think it matters if he help plan the 9-11 attacks or if he fired a shot at an american soldier. He, at a minimum, helped and aided our enemy in a time of war and fully admits to it. That's treason any way you look at it. Here's some of the facts as known to date, not propoganda as you put it. His group was an Al Queda unit fighting for the Taliban, they were knows as "the helpers" these are his own words. His group of freedom fighters surrendered to the Northern Alliance and went to Konduz to turn over there weapons, yeah right. He's interogated by 2 CIA agents, on video, and was not cooperative, which as an American captured with the enemy by an ally, he should have been majorly cooperative and told them about the terrorist that had hidden grenades by his own admission he saw them do it. That led directly to the death of a CIA agent.
Fact is he F'ed up in a huge way, and now he's got to face the consequinces. I feel pretty weird about this. On one hand I'm pissed as hell at him and want him off the planet, but on the other hand I just feel sorry for the guy for making a stupid choice at a young impressionable age. Unfortunately for him, the choice he made was such a big one that as a society we can't just turn our heads at this one.
It's kind of like in the Band of Brothers 2nd episode when the GI is talking to the German POW who was American and from the same town as him. The the Lt. comes and shoots the prisoners. Walker is lucky to be alive right now and lucky to be an American. Otherwise he'd most likely be in an unmarked grave by now, or roughting in the middle of some desert.
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Wotan, I must say I can't believe you advocate doing NOTHING to this "man". That is taking tolerance to an absolute extreme. Are you next going to argue we have no grounds to confiscate the weapon? After all, he is an American, and it IS his right to bear arms...
Sorry, but useless extrapolation over what is a crystal-clear case of treason just gets my goat. What's it going to take for you to see the light? Do we need to have Johnny drop a dirty bomb by his mom and dad's house to prove it to you?
They caught him. DO something with him before he has the chance to do far WORSE harm.
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A guy I knew from Junior High decided to "come out" in the school newspaper, writing a delightful little article about his "Starry night in the Castro" (Castro District of SF, a sort of Gay Mecca)where he described a night out of dancing with his boyfriend and all that. No problem with that its his business and his life experience to enjoy and express. But soon he gets some gay hero scolarship from the State and gets pretty much accepted to any University he wants. Yea the gays arent any diffiernt and shouldnt be treated any different, riiiiight.
Sooooo....if he had described his night as a born again christian, and how he had come to love Jesus....and a Christian Hero Scholarship were presented......you would be pissed that "Christians" wanted to be treated differently?
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It's clear that the government will charge him.
He'll get his day in court; that's the way this place is supposed to work.
Give it a rest.
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This guy was fighting indians in kashmir as part of a taliban/pakistani/islamic "mercenary group".
He may have trained in an el quaeda camp but these same camps were sponsored by the taliban and the pakistani military.
The northern alliance blame pakistan for aiding and supporting the taliban.
We are doing nothing to pakistan.
This guy was sent to afganistan to fight the Nothern Alliance.
The US started bombing the taliban. This guy (as fediddleed up as his is) happened to be there.
Now you can argue that once it started he should have walked away. But if you think they would just let well I doudt it.
As fer the cole all that was reported was that he said he agreed with the fact that the US military presence there is unwanted by some extremist and the us got what it deserved. That hardly translates to treason. He may well have agreed with the wtc/pentagon attacks but that dont translate to treason.
I saw a news report of a small group of muslims celebrating in Detroit over those attacks.
If they prosecute this guy for a crime and he is found guilty thats one thing.
But because he dislikes america or that he agreed with the talibans idea of a islamic state is not prosecutable as treason or sedition.
Now he may well be charged with conspiracy in regards to the cia guy that was killed but thats a "real crime".
Or if he fired on American troops maybe.
The hippy toejam bag aint worth a fek to me personally. I could careless about him. But however we have laws in this country that should be non biased in terms of belief.
Until they charge him with a crime as much as he is hated there is no way to come up with a proper judgement. Being talibany is not a crime.
So the answer what should we do with that freak.
Nothing until theres some tangible evidence that a crime was committed. What you feel he should be charged with is irrelevant.
And udie where did this guy say he declared war on the US?
and its not a crime not to report grenades being hid. If they prove he hid them and/or used them then he may be prosecutable. or that he had prior knowledge that they would be used to kill anyone he may be prosecutable.
All you all are doing is putting your personal idea into something and using that as grounds fer treason.
The accuser bares the burden of proof.
And when they dont prosecute this guy for treason/sedition and all these other made up crimes of yours you'll be back here telling us how fediddleed up the government is for not agreeing with you.
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But If I described a night out with my girlfriend would I get a scolarship?
Guess not huh?
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Thx for for proving my point Sir Loin, gays must be treateted with kid gloves because they are the only people with problems in the world, well the other "specials" are too.
pathetic...
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No, I won't.
As fer the cole all that was reported was that he said he agreed with the fact that the US military presence there is unwanted by some extremist and the us got what it deserved. That hardly translates to treason. He may well have agreed with the wtc/pentagon attacks but that dont translate to treason.
You're right, that doesn't. The fact he stayed in their service afterwards does. It's not "my agenda" I am espousing here. I have not pointed a finger at anyone other than one person- the traitor. I don't care if he is Osama bin Laden's squeak, that doesn't matter.
You want an agenda? Here's one; I am sick of crime being commited in broad daylight, the perpetrators caught, and then skipping free because of some legalistic interpretation of their acts. :mad:
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But If I described a night out with my girlfriend would I get a scolarship?
Guess not huh?
I read this reply and thought to myself....which is more important, replying to an obvious and poorly camouflaged bias, or using what may be the best straight line I've read in this BBS for a good long time.
1. Depends on the date.
2. Your right...I've seen your girlfriend
3. No just boyfriend essays get the dough...she needs to write about you.
4. Did you go to the Castro? Maybe its a community based award.
5. If she works at the Condor Club...you may get something.
No time to add more....but I'm sure there is plenty I haven't thought of Thank You GH.
;)
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OK.....
You are the one who preaches "obvious bias", you demand that people be treated diffrently based on who or what group they are. I dont, I think all people are more or less the same, we all eat toejam sleep love our family and go about life. I see no reason why anyone should be treated diffrent just because they are black or gay or white or male or female or anything. And if I wanna criticize somebody well I should have the right to, becuse its based on what they do and how they behave and not on who they are.
If you qute me on this later dont just be selecteve here.
Its about how people behave! All I said or alluded to in this whole thing is that John Walker grew up in a left wing permissive environment and that I belive that led to the poor decisions he has made. Thats all. And yes my experience has been that most SF Bay Area gays are very very left wing.
Thats all! You can play your game and try to argue this by ridiculing me and threatening me with the standard old youre a racist this and that ploy, but most people these days are getting tired of this by-the book PC crowd hate blackmail tactic.
So go ahead I assume youll just ignore this response and see it through your own colred lenses as most PC whackos do. And yes thats what you are, a PC whacko who demands his "special" groups be treated with kid gloves. Ive had enough of PC trash ideas It has simply gone too far, its almosr Fascist/Communist in its practice and application today. Its Un-American.
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one thing about homosexuals.......
they define themselves by their sexual behavoir then cry foul when anyone judges them by it.
Seems to me they can't have it both ways........
or can they...........
<shudder> yuck..........
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Its irrelevant what gays do in sex, it really shouldnt matter its between two adults.
However what is relevant is how gays position themselves politically, on one hand they demand to be seen and treated as being no different while they and thier PC lap dogs demand special treatement and consideration when this special treatment is benefical. This pisses me off, and its the same by the book PC tactic all the other "specials" swaer by.
Yes TahGut and trotski Im evil and sooooo un-cool. :rolleyes:
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legalistic interpretation of their acts.
well unfortunately the "legalistic interpretation" is all that matters. Not how you feel or what you think he did.
He's a fediddlein pos no doudt.
You would have to prove that he new al quaeda bombed the cole inorder to prove he knew they did it.
Theres been no conclusion as to whether it was al quaeda. There are simply suspects. The facts have yet to be established by a court.
You can call for blood all you want but we have laws based on "legalistic interpretation" not on some guy playing AH's opinion.... :)
Also one other thing depending upon what type of court and what federal distric he is tried in you could very well be in the jury pool (assuming a host of things). By your statements you could be excluded from the jury. Now imagine the defense arguing that such a bias exist among potential jurists making it impossible for him to get a fair trial.
I doudt a judge would ever agree but its not unheard of.
anyway they will do to him what they can with what evidence they have.
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my point is gruen they where on their sleeve and pretty much dare you to say something and when someone does they use it as ammunition to promote that special treatment you speak of.
I could careless as well what they do to each other is there buisness but when you define who you are by the sexual acts you do they you open the door for all types of critism. Good or Bad. They just wont to hear any of the bad.
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Originally posted by Wotan:
my point is gruen they where on their sleeve and pretty much dare you to say something and when someone does they use it as ammunition to promote that special treatment you speak of.
I surprised to see myself post this but, you're right. I'm sure that a bunch of gay people I know would agree with you.
But the point you seem to be missing is that they don't want SPECIAL treatment.
They want the same treatment you and I get. ie. The right to marry.
The LAW defines them by their sexual acts. Kinda missing the forest for the trees here.
[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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I suggest another thread for this Grun if you wish to continue.
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Hey, I wouldn't/couldn't sit on the jury. I already know he's guilty.
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:)
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cc SirLoin It was never meant to discuss my "bias" against gays and my supposed membership in the KKK, but the PC crowd jumped all over me.
Sorry for TahGuts and trotski's pathetic display of PC intollerance all, I apologize for them.
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Oh okay, so if someone disagrees with your racist, biased, prejudiced opinions, they're "PC". And that's a bad thing? :rolleyes:
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How am I racist? Point out exactly where?
Do It, cmon lets see Thrawn.
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I would remove that Confederate Flag from your nose art for starters Grunz,then go back to German issued flight shoes instead of those Doc Martens...Are you starting to feel persucuted on this thread her Grun?.."How does it feel?"
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
How am I racist? Point out exactly where?
Do It, cmon lets see Thrawn.
Okay, you're not a racist...you're just acting like one. I reiterate. Most gays I know don't want to be treated special, they just want the same rights as you and me.
Why do you have a problem with that?
[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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I'll do it Grun...Your response to my first post says it all.An important topic thread,I added to it,you hijacked it to promote your anti-gays views.
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GRUNHERZ,
I would dearly love for you to read all of my posts and find a place where I said anything you consider PC and post it here.
PC means what to you? That all people should be treated equally? I agree. Can gays have their own scholarship program...why not? I don't suppose you have a problem with the UNCF (United Negro College Fund), or maybe one from the your local Mosque for a deserving muslim student? If these other (non gay)scholarships don't bother you then you need to look inside yourself for the real reason that that gay kid getting a scholarship pissed you off. You might just have to admit I have a point, But then I am a...
PC whacko who demands his "special" groups be treated with kid gloves. Ive had enough of PC trash ideas It has simply gone too far, its almosr Fascist/Communist in its practice and application today. Its Un-American.
That made a lot of sense.....if you don't like it, call it PC. Yea, something similar to that worked well for other hate groups in the past too. But then you already mentioned the Fascists, but you forgot the Nazis.
Is this PC?
Posted by Tahgut: OTOH blaming all of the "liberals" in Marin County or anywhere else for John Walker without looking to see where all those people wearing white sheets come from is just STUPID! This is about an idiot kid from an idiot family. Stop trying to make some kind of ludicrous point about your right wing agenda out of it.
Whats PC about that? If I was really gonna go PC with this I sure forgot to not call him an IDIOT! Oh ...I know, it doesn't say bad things about liberals...lets move on.
This must be the PC quote:
Posted by Tahgut:
How many kids came out of Marin County and joined terrorist groups? How many kids with "inclusive" upbringings in this den-of-psychos are in the al quaida(sp?)? answer: Well, 1 that we know of, but darnit, people are being understanding! How dare they!
How many strictly raised right winger kids end up in the KKK or Michigan Militia or Nazi Movement? Unless your head is in the sand you know this is a MUCH bigger number and a MUCH bigger problem.
Weirdos exist in all areas, it isn't tolerance that is the problem! Its the lack of it. OBL wants nothing as much as for us to reduce our level of tolerance for all groups in our society. Do you really want to assist him in his quest?
Yea ...this must be the PC quote, cause I used the word TOLERANCE...but you go ahead and take it out of context if you like. Did I make a point there? I think so, but you will have to READ it to decide. Where did I "demand people be treated differently"?
and
DON'T FREAKIN APOLOGIZE FOR ME! You are the one with your head in the sand. You should be apologizing for the falacious rant against something you perceived that was not there. Now..........get back in there and read before you rant.....and since it is the season, I forgive you.
Merry Christmas Grunherz and all :cool:
[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]
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Oh okay, so if someone disagrees with your racist, biased, prejudiced opinions, they're "PC". And that's a bad thing?
How am I racist?
ROFL...."Yer fat, dumb and ugly"
"I'm not fat"
C'mon....that is a classic!
:D :D :D
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So sirloin gay is a race now, huh? :)
Anyway Thrawn if you read my posts youll see that all I want is for gays to be treated like anyone else. Im opposed to them being tretaed diffrently, this includes policies that both hurt and benefit anyone JUSt because they are gay.
For the record:
I belive that gay couples should get the same legal, adoption, fininacial, hospital vistataion, insurence and inheritance rights as married straight couples.
I belive that gays should have a legal ability to wed, except, and this is solely based on my individual opininion it shouldnt be called the word "marriage" because that has in every society I have ever studied and my belief been a specific act between a man and a woman.
Now ask yourself this, Are my views anti-gay at all?
Did I once say anything bad about anyone lving and being gay and not straight? Did I make fun of gay people? Did I attack gays as being wierd or freaks? Did I do any of this?
Look at my posts.
Now what did I say? It was all political.
Everyone here knows I hate leftists (not liberals or democrats but extreme left wingers like neo-nazis are extreme right wingers), In my personal experience pretty much all gays I have met and gotten to know tend to be very very left leaning, some are even leftists.
This is my experience with people who I know to be openly gay, do you find this conclusion of mine offensive? Well maybe you know other gay people who are not left leaning. Prejudice, well I didnt prejudge anyone I met people and got to know them. This isnt Prejudice now is it? Bias? Well shreck sure Im biased anyone with opinions is. You have no opinions right?
Anyway I pointed out that his daddy was gay because In my experience gays tend to be left wing progressive PC types who (left wing types) In my experience are too permissive and wacko in thier political views and I think that led lil Johnny Talib to make bad decision like he did.
Listen Its obvious we dont agree on some points but Im really dissapointed and concerned that you guys here would stoop down to these childsh textbook PC whacko scare tactics of calling people racists whenever they criticize PC approved "special" groups. In my opnion all people are pretty much the same, and I feel free in my heart to criticize them freely.
i donno what else to say fellas, feel free to ask any specfics if you misunderstood any part of this post and are interesten in what I really stand for and not just in bashing me.
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TahGut is a child molester and rapist.
Prove that you arent, or is just asking for proof by the accuser tantamount to a confession by the accused?
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Well Grunherz, you've out guttered us all, congratulations.
"The masses will more likely believe a big lie than a small one" I think you ought to look up who said that.
Prove that you arent, or is just asking for proof by the accuser tantamount to a confession by the accused?
Still trying to figure out what brought this on.....was it the girlfriend joke?
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If Gays had equal rights I would STRONGLY disagree with them having special scholarships(as I would with anyone who thinks they are more than equal).They do not so more power to them...I'm sorry AKNimitz this thread degenerated into this.
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So are you a child molester and rapist?
Does you response prove it or disprove it?
Yes I am sorry too sirloin that tahgut and trotski did that.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I don't really understand what the problem is... it seems he should be treated the same as any Taliban captured in Afghanistan. Turn him over to the Afghan government and let them decide his fate.
Just make it clear that he will not be re-issued a US passport for the one he "lost".
AKDejaVu
Good point DejaVu.
I think (could be wrong) that every US citizen has the right to denounce their citizenship and claim whatever country might have them.
If this is the case then he shouldn't be considered to be a traitor unless he claims US citizenship.
However, just as all al-Qaida members, he could be held accountable the same as bin Laden should we choose so.
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: AKIron ]
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I guess not swallowing the white fundamentalist christian view on homosexuality makes me PC, well bugger it...guess I'm an Oprah watching, bookclub reading politicaly correct sheep.
But it's sounds a far better proposition than a closed minded fascist droid.
Trust me Sirloin Jonny Talib SF BayArea wonderchild isnt the CIA type.....BTW now we find out his father is a gay, little wonder huh?
Just commenting on the environment little Johhny Talib had in the Bay Area, all progressive peaceful inclusive and loving toejam.
So go ahead I assume youll just ignore this response and see it through your own colred lenses as most PC whackos do. And yes thats what you are, a PC whacko who demands his "special" groups be treated with kid gloves. Ive had enough of PC trash ideas It has simply gone too far, its almosr Fascist/Communist in its practice and application today. Its Un-American.
Yeah it's mine and Tah Gut's fault...
Tronsky
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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So tronski,
If I don't believe in that lifestyle and have seen them (gays) do stuff that is disgusting, like sucking d__k through the hole of a wall, not knowing who it belongs to. Or backing his butt up to the same hole to surf the ole hershey highway. Yet I don't react with violence, just don;t want to support that disgusting way of life. Does that make me a fascist too?
also, as an American doesn't Grun have a right to disagree with that way of life and your opinion on it? You sound more like the fascist to me...
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]
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If I don't believe in that lifestyle
Being gay isn't any more a "lifestyle" than being straight it. It's simply what they are.
and have seen them (gays) do stuff that is disgusting, like sucking d__k through the hole of a wall, not knowing who it belongs to. Or backing his butt up to the same hole to surf the ole hershey highway.
I've seen guys getting bjs from hookers in an alley. Any group of people have their sluts and scumy people. It's not exclusive to gays and not all gays are like that.
Yet I don't react with violence, just don;t want to support that disgusting way of life. Does that make me a fascist too?
Hell I don't support it either but, once again, that way of life isn't exclusice to gays and not all gays live that way either.
also, as an American doesn't Grun have a right to disagree with that way of life and your opinion on it? You sound more like the fascist to me...
Sure he can disagree, and we can disagree with him.
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The USA is very wonderful in that we can argue nicely, not disagree, and I specifically say argue since my stance on gays is not any diffrent from trotskis or tahguts or thrawns but a few of them wanna pick a fight over my hatred of PC political attitudes towards gays and the looney leftists in general.
<S> all and I hope you all have nice Chrismas and New Year.
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Amen!!!........Merry X-Mas everyone! :cool:
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reality: he's a traitor.
legal reality: he may or may not have met the necessary conditions to be convicted of treason.
fortunately his activities in the prison uprising will get him convicted of "something".
its just like them busting oj for cable theft...if the law won't let you get them for their real sin, maybe it'll let you get them for something else.
so long as there is some level of justice i guess you can loosely claim that the system is effective.
at least we have that until someday reality and the law meet.
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Originally posted by Udie:
So tronski,
If I don't believe in that lifestyle and have seen them (gays) do stuff that is disgusting, like sucking d__k through the hole of a wall, not knowing who it belongs to. Or backing his butt up to the same hole to surf the ole hershey highway. Yet I don't react with violence, just don;t want to support that disgusting way of life. Does that make me a fascist too?
also, as an American doesn't Grun have a right to disagree with that way of life and your opinion on it? You sound more like the fascist to me...
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]
Make a statement that someone ended up in the Taliban because his father is gay in a public forum then your fair game.
I'm not arguing the point about life style, but baseless idiotic arguments.
If I would post that sept 11th happened because there were too many jews in the WTC, you think that you could not post an argument against that kind of statement?
Tronsky
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His daddy being gay is important because politically/socially/culturally most gays I know in the Bay Area are very very left wing. I have always said it was the leftist lifestly of rich progressive USA coastal elite hypocrite ungratful amazinhunks who hate the USA that led johnny talib to take these choices in life.
I belive its relevant politically, and remember I never said anything bad or against gays being gay, I do have trouble with so many of them being very very left wing and often leftist in politics. Thats all.
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Amazing...You go from one predudice to another Grun.First it's gays and now it's gay politics.How can it be "America The Free" when certain peoples are persecuted and denied basic rights?
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merry christmas? You can't say that! What about the non-Christians that post on this board?!?!?! Shame on you all! :D
As for the scholarship... uhmm, if it's a privately sponsored scholarship, they can give it to whomever they damn well please. If you dislike it so much, endow your OWN scholarship and give it to whomever you think is fit to receive it. Now if it's a government sponsored scholarship, you've got an issue here.
As for John Walker... I'd like some red label please. straight up. :) Oh, you mean the louse infested handsomehunk. Put a bullet in his head and be done with it.
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SirLoin it was never about gays at all, find anything in my posts that says anything bad about people being gay, However you are right It has always been about gay related politics- especially in PC obssesed SF bay area.
Really find one thing in my posts where I say anything bad about gay people being gay, you wont, its always about politics.
Listen Sirloin you seem to be affected by PC too much where any political criticizm of "special" groups political activity like gays is automatically equated with discrimination and intollerance. Why do you do this.
Plese admit that you honestly cant fing any anti-gay message in my post, there are none. All my negativity is directed at the left leaing attitudes of most gays in the BAY Area that I know.
There is no message in any of my posts critcising gay people for being gay, none, its all about politics.
Please understand that, please please please please please. LOL shim im practically begging you.
Listen Im trying really hard to make it clear I have nothing against gays except when it comes to PC-nazi obssesed gay issue politics. I know Its hard for PC types to understand that my anger is only directed at the PC politics and not gay people, I know its hard for them to swallow that and they get confused then call me names and revert to standard PC texboot blackmail techniques.
I dont know what else to say...... How can I be more clear, help me explain this to you.
Honestly now I urge you to ask me specfic questions if you dont understand anything about my stance in this argument.
Please do trhat If you are concerned about this.
Im trying hard to find some understanding between us.
Thanks and once again, Merry Christmas All.
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Grun,yes there is a "Loony Left" and it sux.But there is also a "Loony Right"..(eg..Pat Robertson,Pat Buchannon..etc)Do you honestly think Gays could be a political force on the "right" end of the spectrum?
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OK, one more try.
Grunherz, I understand you think Gays should be treated equally. That is good. However you hate the "PC" crowd and "leftist politics", I get your point.
OK, then you must have some understanding of how a phrase like "now we find out his father is gay, figures", might be read as an attack on gays, and not "gay politics". I hope you can at least concede that there could be a misunderstanding.
Now lets look at your other perceived prejudice. When you say "PC" crowd, what does that mean exactly. Can you define it without speaking in generalities like "leftists" or "PC-nazi obsessed gay issue politics"?
At 21 you may be too young to remember how things were before the PC movement. "Negro" was often part of any decription in the news of a black man no matter what the context of the story. "Babe" and "doll" were often used IN THE WORKPLACE when talking to a female coworker. The PC movement changed all that. Admittedly people have tried to take it to extremes in many cases, like deleting all male references to God in the Bible (stupid).
But some changes that were fought tooth and nail 20 years ago are now common. The Postman is now a Mail Carrier. The Fireman, is a Firefighter. Many more examples exist that have been beneficial to women and minorities over the years.
So when you say "PC Crowd" as a derogatory remark, then you are also including many people who have made strides in a positive direction for needed social change. Hating any group of people as a group is prejudiced and should be avoided.
With life experience comes wisdom and tolerance.
Like the great Bob Dylan wrote "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."
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Sorry, but As an American citizen, he shall face the full brunt of the legal system. If it is treason he is tried for and convicted then he shall be dealt with accordingly. I don't care if he is 20 or 15 or whatever. He broke the law, he fought, CIA operative is dead he shall pay and meet his maker. An example has to be made, and if the press wasn't so knee deep over there and american soldiers found out he was an American what are the chances we would have even found out about him? God knows the soldiers wouldn't have let him (out of that country).
One Porterhouse steak, side of carrots, will be a nice starting for his last meal.
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Originally posted by Sachs:
One Porterhouse steak, side of carrots, will be a nice starting for his last meal.
Don't ya think pork chops and apple sauce would be more fitting? ;)
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Absolutely I agree, there was a misunderestanding. I just figured that people would see it as directed in a political/social sense, because in my experience here in the bay area gays are very much the progresssive, I simply assumed that peple would see it that way. I shoyld have been more clear and immediatly explain my reasoing.
Please dont call my hatred of PC politics a "prejudice", words like racism, prejudice are textboox PC scare hate blackmail scare tactic phrases. They are overused, meaningless and outdated. I would prefrer that you accept that as my decision and judgemnt on the PC issue and not as some uninformed knee-jerk reaction.
Why do I hate PC so much?
Well first of all I am only 21 and I DONT rememmber when the word NEGRO or cupcake was used in daily life, furthermore I never saw in my life COLORED waiting rooms or COLRED lunch counters, I never saw the bus driver order black people to the back, I never saw any of that. Can you guess why? Well its not diddlying 1965 any more, the civil rights movement worked, MLK did it he did it he changed the country just like Gandhi changed India. He got the vast majority of whites to change their attitudes and see the evils of racism. It worked. Thats why I as a 21 year old dont see that garbage in the USA today.
The civil rights era did great things and was a great and just cause.
PC roadkill is entirely seperate to me and has nothing at all to do with civil rights, It has all to do with liberal rich white peoples guilt. They came up with it. They are the ones who supported it intially, it was a very progressive thing back then. It may have been a nice idea but it has become a terrible pointless monster. My school put up these signs, "DEANZA IS A HATE FREE ZONE", a typicall PC roadkill meaingless slogan. Lets examine it: Will a KKK lunatic racist just read that one day and think, Oh lord Im mistaken iin my hatred and will now stop? Will it? Will it?, No it wont. All its there to do is to make guilt ridden rich all their lives liberal kids feel better anouth their insrecurites because they put up a sign. You know I made this comment to an Intercultral Sudies teacher of mine and she told me privatly that Im right about this but that this kind of idea would get me in trouble with many people. In fact most of my ideas on politics are very complex, its very easy to characterise me as a bad guy by any side as I pick and choose supposedly contradictory postions.
For example:
I fully support civil rights but I hate with all my heart and soul PC politics.
To me they are not related. The sooner peoplew accept this the dsonner this country and her people will get along better.
PC is roadkill garbage. It is not representative of the cvil rights movement.
TahGut are you begging to see my stance here, again if you have any specific quesions plese ask.
And thanks for taking that brave step trying to find common ground, I appriciate it. In fact I belive our postions are much closer than you think. <S>
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BTW sorry about my whacky spelling, I feel its much more important to get my ideas down than to worry about spelling- this goes for my posts here on the BBS. :)
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I blame it all on those soccer moms!
-SW
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Topic: What to do with American Taliban John Walker?
I think he'll walk in the end. Make the talk show circuits and move to SE FL and be OJ's best bud.
WHat should HAVE happened? He and every other Taliban "prisoner" should have been shot on the spot.
Kill them all and let Allah sort em out
[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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BTW, one of my presents this year was Johnny Walker....in a Black label...... I asked for blue, but damn thats expensive!
The other JW IMHO is scum and deserves to be left to the devices of his adopted Country.
As for the PC question Grun, I suggest we start a new thread. There is so much more to say.
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#S# !
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#S# !
Dang you brought a 15 year old thread back to life
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These were the happy times of aces high, before the great darkness.
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After re-reading the thread id say 95% of it will be nothing left but darkness after all the posts are edited