Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: storch on November 24, 2005, 11:31:03 PM
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I just filled up with $2.29 regular fuel. the prices have been dropping steadily here. are any others experiencing this?
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Ever since I bought a siphon, I've experienced record savings.
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1.98 here in Virginia Beach
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$1.83 Columbus, OH
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Yes Storch - here in Limeyland, I saw diesel for sale yesterday at a mere 90p/litre. That's the lowest (I can't bring myself to say "cheapest") since the summer.
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my local monopoly tesco garage sells diesel for 98p/ltr.
everywhere else is between 95-99p.
what the hell are our guys dying for if we are seeing prices rise over here?
i say pull out all troops from service from those coutries not happy with their fuel prices.
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About 1.20 euros/ltr here, diesel around 1 euro/ltr.
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are these prices reflecting recent increases in europe? for example my last fill-up was at $2.69 about one week ago. we had an all time high of $3.23 after hurricane katrina. folks here were in a panic due to the sharp increase with the local media on air personalities all but tripping over themselves to find the highest prices in town and around the nation. they had a field day blaming boosh but they have been quiet as church mice as the prices plummeted inspite of local gasoline tax increases.
there was one positive note to the gasoline price increase though. the prices of the big SUVs dropped markedly. I buy my wife a brand new car every ten years or so, whether she needs it or not. earlier this month I strolled into our local ford dealership and drove off with a 2005 eddie bauer expedition with every option for the vehicle including TV, VCR, DVD and satellite radio for US$27k (out the door at just over US$30k) down from a sticker price of US$42k. the poor guy had a glut of the thirsty monsters on the lot, there must have been 60 unsold expeditions of all flavors that weekend. now my bride tools around town to the tune of 12 miles per gallon. I expected the monster to do around 8mpg in town. on the highway it does around 17mpg. i'm very impressed with how economical the new 5.4L V8 beast is. I suppose it will improve a bit once it's "broken in". the other notable points are the sharp turning radius and how much pedal it has.
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I had a visitor recently - English guy now working in Qatar - and he's paying 12p/litre - that's about 20 US cents (=75 cents/US gallon?)
Mechanic - that 90p/litre I saw was at Total in Caversham. But I've seen similar prices at 2 Esso stations near you - the Esso just near Handy Cross as you take the road into Cressex Estate, and the one in Marlow - on the right as you come into Marlow off the A404.
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It was about 1.08 Euro a litre here in places when I last filled. It was about 1.20 in places a couple of weeks ago.
Beetle, I was in England, Guildford last weekend and I'm sure I saw 87 pence a litre. I could be wrong, maybe it was diesel. Still silly prices. I was staying with a friend who is basically rich but who's only indulgence, apart that is from a Ł1 million+ house, is a 4.4 litre BMW X5 SUV. Even he thinks twice about long trips in it with the price of petrol. Paying full fare and flying is cheaper!
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$1.92 in San Antonio.
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Soon as everyone starts screaming about the Oil companys & record profits, Govt starts talking about investigating. Prices start dropping back to pre Katrina levels.
Oil companys trying to stand around looking innocent. "Hey no huge price gouging going on here!" as they stand around trying to keep money from escapeing from their pockets.
We all know what the problem is. What I don't know is how to get them to actually compete with each other instead of getting together to set prices.
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More likely that prices were dropped so people would be able to spend $$ for holiday goodies. Several reports had been out in months preceding the drop on how consumers would not be as loose on shopping due to gas prices cutting into their budget.
Wait and see if they go back up early next year.
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In the past 2-3 weeks the price has gone down here in Finland. A while (a month or so.. or even more?) back it was almost 1.30 eur/ltr, it's now come down to 1.20ish again.
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Originally posted by storch
now my bride tools around town to the tune of 12 miles per gallon.......i'm very impressed with how economical the new 5.4L V8 beast is.
LOL - and this exemplifies what the rest of the world is up against as it tries to persuade America to sign up to the Kyoto Summit and reduce emissions caused by the burning of hydrocarbons. Having stuck my head above the parapet to say that, there are now two knee jerk responses I await from the other side of the pond: - "This is America - our gas guzzling vehicles are a tradition and represent our 'freedom' which you guys don't have..."
- "12mpg is economical to us because we don't pay $6/gallon..."
OK, fine. It may be "economical" in terms of cash outlay at the pump, combined with the reduced purchase price of the vehicle, but not in terms of the volume of crude oil which must be wrung out of the earth to run it. In the ROTW (rest of the world - ie outside North America, but not including oil rich states in the Middle East) oil products are rightly considered to be a precious commodity and are priced accordingly. I'm not saying that the motorist should be treated as the goose which must lay golden eggs for his nation's treasury, but I do support measures which steer people away from gas guzzlers and towards more thrifty vehicles. In the EU, countries like Austria and Italy have it about right. Their diesel is taxed much less than petrol/gas, with the result that 60% of cars in those countries are diesel. That means that the fuel needs of the motoring public can be met using a much smaller volume of crude oil than would otherwise be the case.
And American motorists could be dissuaded from driving vehicles which commit such profligate waste as those grandiose SUVs: I don't buy the argument that folks "need" such vehicles as those. Indeed, as Storch found, there was a glut of around 60 of those monsters unsold on his dealer's lot - that's 60 motorists who did not buy one, but presumably bought something more frugal instead.
One day people will realise the importance of conservation of oil and other natural resources, instead of taking them for granted and pooh-poohing the ROTW for holding a different point of view.
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"We need a tax on consumption so bad, it's pathetic..." - former US Chrysler CEO Lee Iacocca
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Originally posted by Panzzer
About 1.20 euros/ltr here, diesel around 1 euro/ltr.
Now that they lowered the gas price they started ripping off from diesel. You can get it for .92€ in some places but usually it's around 1.00€. I sometimes actually shop around using pricewatch.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Soon as everyone starts screaming about the Oil companys & record profits, Govt starts talking about investigating. Prices start dropping back to pre Katrina levels.
Oil companys trying to stand around looking innocent. "Hey no huge price gouging going on here!" as they stand around trying to keep money from escapeing from their pockets.
We all know what the problem is. What I don't know is how to get them to actually compete with each other instead of getting together to set prices.
Well at least you have laws against gouging and cartels. In here and I suspect in many other euro countries those laws are a joke.
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I'm always amused about how the most irritating cultural quirks from the US tend to get picked up in Europe and the UK... In the last 6 months, I've noticed what appears to be double the number of UK spec SUVs driving around. Most are huge range rovers, but I saw a half dozen UK spec Ford SUVs in one day earlier this week.
Why can't the UK bring over our GOOD habits? The US tries to copy what's GOOD about the UK, but the UK seems intent on turning into a nation of wanna-be gangsta (but without quite as many guns). Next we'll see spinner wheels on otherwise nice Nissan Skylines...
Seriously, it's pretty disappointing to see how popular SUVs are becoming in the UK. For most people, it's a clear indication that they value bling over substance and have an utter disregard for both the environment and the value of their money. Sad.
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$ 1.96 in Dallas
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Originally posted by mechanic
my local monopoly tesco garage sells diesel for 98p/ltr.
everywhere else is between 95-99p.
what the hell are our guys dying for if we are seeing prices rise over here?
i say pull out all troops from service from those coutries not happy with their fuel prices.
I thought you guys got most of your oil from the North Sea fields. I understand the effects of world markets, trading, yada yada yada, but I am surprised that there has been such an effect in Britain.
Somebody, somewhere is making a LOT of money on this whole oil "shortage"--although there is no problem with the supply right now.
On another note, I will be travelling to London on December 4. What (other than the usual museums, etc.) should I NOT miss seeing?
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Eagl - yes, I too despair of seeing cars like the BMW X5, and that new VW Toureng thing - used as runabouts by bourgeois women commuting between their various coffee mornings, with their pre-school brats strapped into the back. But oh! - they need a car that size... "for protection". :rolleyes: That VW has a 5 litre V10. FFS!! - for doing the school run? :mad: As for the BMW X5, I hardly ever see one being driven by a man. :confused:
rshubert - you should not miss seeing... mechanic and me :D We're both just a short drive from Heathrow. Are you coming into Heathrow or Gatwick?
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Just paid $2.03 per Gal here in jersey the other day.
thats down from about $2.80 pre Katrina and $3.20 after Katrina
I am hearing prices are expected to continue falling.
I was thinking that maybe it had somethig to do with this
NJ Sues Oil Companies Over Post-Katrina Gas-Price Gouging
Hess, Motiva Shell, Sunoco and Independents Are Targets
Sep 27, 2005 7:30 am US/Eastern
TRENTON (AP) New Jersey filed suit against three oil companies and several independent gas station owners Monday, charging them with gouging motorists during Hurricane Katrina.
The lawsuits, filed in Mercer County Superior Court, charge Hess, Motiva Shell and Sunoco with artificially inflating gas prices and for increasing prices more than the once-a-day legal limit. Independent gas station operators selling Hess, Shell, Sunoco and Citgo brands were also sued.
Specifically, the defendants are charged with violating the state's motor fuels and consumer fraud acts through their pricing practices.
"The goal here is to protect consumers' hard-earned money from artificial inflation and economic exploitation,'' said Attorney General Peter Harvey, whose office initiated the suits. "Some of these dealers were using Katrina to artificially inflate the price, because there were sufficient supplies that this kind of pricing did not have to occur.''
Harvey said the charges resulted from investigations by the Office of Weights and Measures and county officials and were based in part on consumer complaints. More than 400 gas stations were monitored during the first week of September, with 100 alleged violations recorded.
The probe began after consumers began to complain about steep and sudden rises in gas prices just before Labor Day weekend. New Jersey gas prices hit their highest-ever levels on Labor Day at an average of $3.16 per gallon of regular.
"Companies that prey on hardworking families through fraudulent practices should feel the full force of the law,'' acting Gov. Richard J. Codey said in a statement issued late Monday. ``Katrina was a devastating hurricane, not a financial windfall for the shameless.''
The complaint also alleges that the defendants engaged in "unconscionable practices,'' which Harvey said included charging motorists' credit cards for more gasoline than they received. He said the suit seeks restitution for customers who were overcharged.
Another bogus practice was to charge drivers for higher octane gas while filling their tanks with lower octane fuel, Harvey said.
Anne Peebles, a spokeswoman for Motiva Shell, said "Shell and Motiva have a history of being sensitive to price changes during significant events such as Hurricane Katrina, and so do our retailers and wholesalers. We do not condone price-gouging and we work closely with local officials in any investigation. We have absolutely no knowledge of the lawsuit.''
Jay Wilson, vice president of investor relations for Hess Corp., said Monday that he hadn't seen the suit and would not comment on it.
Sunoco did not immediately return calls for comment.
Fines are up $10,000 for Consumer Fraud Act violations and up to $200 for violating the Motor Fuels Act.
(© 2005 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. )
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Originally posted by beet1e
LOL - and this exemplifies what the rest of the world is up against as it tries to persuade America to sign up to the Kyoto Summit and reduce emissions caused by the burning of hydrocarbons. Having stuck my head above the parapet to say that, there are now two knee jerk responses I await from the other side of the pond: - "This is America - our gas guzzling vehicles are a tradition and represent our 'freedom' which you guys don't have..."
- "12mpg is economical to us because we don't pay $6/gallon..."
OK, fine. It may be "economical" in terms of cash outlay at the pump, combined with the reduced purchase price of the vehicle, but not in terms of the volume of crude oil which must be wrung out of the earth to run it. In the ROTW (rest of the world - ie outside North America, but not including oil rich states in the Middle East) oil products are rightly considered to be a precious commodity and are priced accordingly. I'm not saying that the motorist should be treated as the goose which must lay golden eggs for his nation's treasury, but I do support measures which steer people away from gas guzzlers and towards more thrifty vehicles. In the EU, countries like Austria and Italy have it about right. Their diesel is taxed much less than petrol/gas, with the result that 60% of cars in those countries are diesel. That means that the fuel needs of the motoring public can be met using a much smaller volume of crude oil than would otherwise be the case.
And American motorists could be dissuaded from driving vehicles which commit such profligate waste as those grandiose SUVs: I don't buy the argument that folks "need" such vehicles as those. Indeed, as Storch found, there was a glut of around 60 of those monsters unsold on his dealer's lot - that's 60 motorists who did not buy one, but presumably bought something more frugal instead.
One day people will realise the importance of conservation of oil and other natural resources, instead of taking them for granted and pooh-poohing the ROTW for holding a different point of view.
_____________________________ ______
"We need a tax on consumption so bad, it's pathetic..." - former US Chrysler CEO Lee Iacocca [/B]
They arent priced as a precious commodity, they are taxed that way. There is very little variance in US and Euro gas prices, taxes make the ridiculous difference!
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exactly... beetle is asking that those who use gasoline be punished for... for what? He want's them taxed punitively... he wants that tax to go to the government to make the government stronger and more intrusive... soooo...
let's say.... a new power source is found... it would be cheap or free and polute not an iota... what is beetles government gonna do?
They are all now gas tax junkies... they live off gas tax that powers their programs.... How will they now pay for their socialism? Even higher income tax?
What are these high tax countries doing with the gas tax? are they using it all to develop new power sources? We don't have any such tax and we are developing power sources at least as quickly as them.... when a new one is found.... we won't need to make up near the shortfall they will.
I suppose that our income tax is too low for their likeing too... they probly think we need to fund the U.N or some such nonsence.... why is more and more and more government allways the answer with the socialists no matter how economicaly unsound it is allways proven to be?
lazs
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Lazs, you silly sausage - you've got me all wrong. I am not a socialist! I have never voted Labour in my entire life. I'm a card carrying member of the Conservative Party - remember? The Thatcher bunch - remember those touching scenes of Margaret dancing cheek to cheek with Ronnie?
I don't want anyone to be taxed punitively - I have never believed in the politics of high taxation. That's what the fight is all about right now in British politics. You must moderate your black/white view that anyone who is not in favour of unfettered gun distribution is a "socialist".
But I believe, for example, that the price of diesel fuel should reflect its production cost as is the case in most EU countries I've driven in since the beginning of 2004, those being Portugal, France, Holland, Germany, Austria and Italy. In at least some of those countries, diesel usage is encouraged by lower duty on that fuel. In France, the annual car licensing thingy - the "vignette" - favours frugal cars. (straffo might be able to add detail)
But I've got no sympathy with the wallets of those drivers who purchase a 12mpg vehicle and then whine about the price of gas, or who drive in a reckless manner thus endangering the lives of anyone using the same road at the same time, whether they admit to it or not.
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I don't know beetle, my toyota tacoma (compact pick up truck) is averaging 18mpg. in comparisson I see 12mpg as very reasonable for a 3 ton vehicle. plus the monster just plainly flies with an almost immediate throttle response. i'm very impressed with this truck and may buy another for myself even though i'm not up for another new truck for four more years. even if fuel does increase again it's worth it to me. furthermore i don't mind us hogging up all the world's energy because we're Americans and we deserve all your resources. viva boosh, go get'm tiger.
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$2.14 here for regular, diesel is still around $2.60 though. I heard gas prices were about 5 US cents in Iraq though, even though they hardly have any refineries and it has to be shipped out of country and back in. Guess who fronts the bill?
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My store is 100 miles west of Dallas. I price match 2 compeditors down the street. It's $2.13 right now.
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The last two times I filled my truck it was under two dollars. (1.99 and 1.97) I blame Bush.
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$2.39 here in WA state but a democrat who rode on the campaign promise of not raising taxes and literally stole the election last year recently increased our gas tax...soooooo...
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Filled up today .71 cents a litre :aok
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LOL - dago drives a truck. The cap fits - perfectly! :lol Bet it even has some sort of home town bumper sticker! ;) Go on dago - post a pic!
Well I'm getting my new Audi on Wednesday. The VW I'll be parting with has averaged 47.5mpg over the last 5500 miles and it's no slouch either - 120mph can be reached with consummate ease, as I discovered on the French autoroute a few months ago - sorry straffo! The Audi has a slightly different engine, with similar performance and economy.
Now I could buy a 3-ton Range Rover, VW Toureng with a 5.0l V10 engine, or a BMW X5... but I don't need a vehicle of such grandiose proportions. And I don't believe in paying for something I don't need. I don't want to be like cpxxx's friend and have to think twice about making a long trip because of a car that gets only 12mpg. I much prefer to enjoy travelling, and going 500+ miles between refuelling stops. Coming back down here from Scotland in September, average consumption was 52mpg for the 430 mile trip, and I was cruising at 80-95mph most of the time on the motorways, but less than that for the first 180 miles through the Scottish glens. Totally relaxed - with the engine on about 2600rpm for 90mph.
The point I'm trying to make is.... the world's resources could be stretched if only people would consider alternatives, and a break with tradition in the form of 3 tonners where clearly one is not needed. As the recent oil price blip shows, 60 would-be customers at storch's one dealership alone did not buy one of those V8 monsters, but bought something more frugal. One assumes they were happy with their choice. Think of the oil resources that could be saved if that scenario were to be repeated nationwide.
On the other hand...
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/ostrich.jpg)
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"The point I'm trying to make is.... the world's resources could be stretched if only people would consider alternatives, and a break with tradition in the form of 3 tonners where clearly one is not needed."
That's a very socialist outlook; live only with what you need , and not what you like . There's a larger problem. Who decides what everyone needs? I'm sure you like your Audi, but I'd rate it as a flimsy tin can and insufficient for my needs. Some other guy might think that nobody should own private cars and we could all use mass transit. Heck, the local Amish need only horse-drawn buggies. Maybe we should all use their standard of living. It would certainly reduce our oil usage!
That's the problem with this sort of socialist outlook--most people only want to get rid of what they don't use anyway. (As an aside, just how many people do you think own non-commercial 3-tonne vehicles?)
I remember my primary school textbooks which had dire predictions about how the world would be totally out of oil before the year 2000. Seems they were a bit mistaken, eh? Given the massive stores of coal and oil shale located within the continental US and Alaska, I sincerely doubt that any REAL (as opposed to artifically contrived) fossil fuel shortage will occur any time in the next couple centuries. I'm all for using up the supplies of fuel in other countries first. That seems to make good strategic sense.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by beet1e
LOL - dago drives a truck. The cap fits - perfectly! :lol Bet it even has some sort of home town bumper sticker! ;) Go on dago - post a pic!
Well I'm getting my new Audi on Wednesday. The VW I'll be parting with has averaged 47.5mpg over the last 5500 miles and it's no slouch either - 120mph can be reached with consummate ease, as I discovered on the French autoroute a few months ago - sorry straffo! The Audi has a slightly different engine, with similar performance and economy.
Now I could buy a 3-ton Range Rover, VW Toureng with a 5.0l V10 engine, or a BMW X5... but I don't need a vehicle of such grandiose proportions. And I don't believe in paying for something I don't need. I don't want to be like cpxxx's friend and have to think twice about making a long trip because of a car that gets only 12mpg. I much prefer to enjoy travelling, and going 500+ miles between refuelling stops. Coming back down here from Scotland in September, average consumption was 52mpg for the 430 mile trip, and I was cruising at 80-95mph most of the time on the motorways, but less than that for the first 180 miles through the Scottish glens. Totally relaxed - with the engine on about 2600rpm for 90mph.
The point I'm trying to make is.... the world's resources could be stretched if only people would consider alternatives, and a break with tradition in the form of 3 tonners where clearly one is not needed. As the recent oil price blip shows, 60 would-be customers at storch's one dealership alone did not buy one of those V8 monsters, but bought something more frugal. One assumes they were happy with their choice. Think of the oil resources that could be saved if that scenario were to be repeated nationwide.
They still let you drive? We try and stop habitual drunks from driving here in the USA, thought not always with success.
My truck (which I have talked about before and shown pictures of), sorry if they are large pics, dont feel like resizing right now:
(http://www.cpinternet.com/~tlong1//truckfront.jpg)
(http://www.cpinternet.com/~tlong1//truckcab.jpg)
Sorry to dissapoint, no bumperstickers, no gun rack, but it is great in snow and very comfortable to drive. Pictures taken outside the office one.
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nice truck dago I drive it's little brother, same color
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beet... I am only telling it as I see it... your gas and ours all costs about the same per barell and to refine...
The reason you fuel costs so much is the punitive taxes on it... and now you are saying that we are paying too little.. the only way we could pay more is to add tax.
Sooo.. if you are asking for more expensive gas you are asking for more socialism.
I am not complaining about prices except for them being manipulated and for the worthless tax put on fuel.
lazs
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Originally posted by storch
nice truck dago I drive it's little brother, same color
Thanks, I enjoy it.
BTW beetle, the only sticker in the back window is a sticker that says my son is a member of the 82nd Airborne division. I hope you dont find my pride in my son a little to redneck for your drunken ass.
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Well that's a nice truck, Dago - much cleaner than I expected, considering its owner. I see you're in Minnesota! That's one of the 9 states to which I have never been. Would you believe I was offered a job there in 1980? Long story - maybe next time. I'm sort of surprised that you drive something Japanese, as full of patriotic fervour as you are for America. Anyway, glad you take pride in your son - that's as it should be.
Yes, my driving licence is clean, ie free from DD or any other form of conviction. The UK and US have a reciprocal arrangement whereby my licence entitles me to drive in your country and your license entitles you to drive in mine. In both cases there's a 90 day limit before the driving test must be passed. I passed mine in IL.
J_A_B you are a decent bloke, and I've even added your name to NUKE's party list, but like Lazs, I think you are getting the wrong idea about me. That's a very socialist outlook; live only with what you need , and not what you like . There's a larger problem. Who decides what everyone needs? I'm sure you like your Audi, but I'd rate it as a flimsy tin can and insufficient for my needs.
All I said was that I choose MY car in accordance with MY needs. I'm not trying to stop anyone from buying a VW Toureng or BMW X5, if that's what they want. Without quoting my bank balance, I can tell you that I could easily afford the 3.2 litre V6 petrol variant of the Audi, with a top speed of 155mph. But I don't need that sort of performance, and it pains me to think of paying all that extra tax into the Blair govt. - you might as well take the money and flush it down the toilet.
As for the Audi being a flimsy tin can, no sir - you have clearly never driven one. At 90mph it's as solid as a rock. Mine will be the 4WD "quattro" variant. And, being a German car, it's better than any American car. :p We've had this discussion before - you tried to portray the VW Passat as a tin can, but in independent US tests it emerged as the safest car on America's roads - data provided by Mr. Toad. As for oil running out scare stories, we would do well to recognise the world's oil as a finite resource and respect it as such - and not piss it away by accepting 12mpg as "pretty economical".
Lazs said "Sooo.. if you are asking for more expensive gas you are asking for more socialism."
I never said I demanded higher gas prices. That would be unfair on people like yourself who have gas guzzlers which you acquired when gas was cheaper - would be like pulling the rug out from under you. I don't have bang up to date info, but I do believe CA has more road vehicles than any other state, with NY coming in second with about half as many. IIRC, to register a vehicle in CA involves making a payment which is four figures of dollars based on the vehicle's value. This charge is one area which could be manipulated to favour more frugal cars. It might not have to be varied by much to achieve the desired effect...
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beet... you didn't say anything... "pulling the rug out from under" me? forget that... is that the only reason you don't want higher gas prices?
answer me... Do you realize that higher gas prices are only the effect of more tax? To want higher gas prices is to want more tax and bigger government. There is no other way to see it. Your gas costs more because you give it to your government to further socialism... I don't need to drive boring cars to further socialism.
I am not worried about how much gas costs... only how much goes to tax and price gouging... if it ever does become rare... so much the better..
private industry will have an even bigger incentive to get another power source.
lazs
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Originally posted by beet1e
I'm sort of surprised that you drive something Japanese, as full of patriotic fervour as you are for America.
I am not the complete flag waving redneck you envision me to be based on the television shows you import.
I bought the best product for the money, the one that I liked. I always do that. All things being equal I probably would buy a USA product, but this wasn't an equal. I thought it a better product and bought it for that reason.
For my next gun purchase, I plan on a Sig Sauer. Not USA either, but I like it and find it a top quality product.
dago
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"J_A_B you are a decent bloke, and I've even added your name to NUKE's party list, but like Lazs, I think you are getting the wrong idea about me. "
I'll accept that this may be the case, and I appreciate clarification. I'm sure you can see why I might get the wrong idea--internet communication is notorious for that. For my part, I hope you appreciate that while I may sound critical of you, it's in a healthy sense as I enjoy a spirited debate.
"you tried to portray the VW Passat as a tin can, but in independent US tests it emerged as the safest car on America's roads - data provided by Mr. Toad."
"Safety" is notoriously subjective. Crash tests differ in what they measure--the Passat, for example, is probably better than my own car in a single-car crash, but my vehicle will devastate the VW should I hit one. I'm mostly concerned with the threat of being hit by another vehicle, and so in my opinion a 5-axle articulated lorry is the safest vehicle on the road.
"and not piss it away by accepting 12mpg as "pretty economical."
I agree that 12 MPG is lousy. My own car--not exactly a great vehicle for mileage--still manages twice that (and somewhat better on the highway). My cousin used to own a 1978 Chevy Nova which was heavily modified. It got roughly 9 MPG, and ran on 94 octane fuel. I laughed at that car all the time (in addition to bad mileage, it was painted mostly with primer in true "rural ohio" fashion), but he loved it.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by beet1e
I'm sort of surprised that you drive something Japanese, as full of patriotic fervour as you are for America.
Welcome to the late 20th and early 21st century, Beet. Japanese cars have been made over here and visa versa.
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/
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Toyota Trucks are American made
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Welcome to the late 20th and early 21st century, Beet. Japanese cars have been made over here and visa versa.
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/
You're a doofus. I know all about Japanese makes being made in other countries. I used to work for Honda UK (1990-92), remember. In addition there are Toyota and Nissan which have vehicle manufacture plants here.
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Wow. Did he really say doofus?
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Originally posted by beet1e
You're a doofus. I know all about Japanese makes being made in other countries. I used to work for Honda UK (1990-92), remember. In addition there are Toyota and Nissan which have vehicle manufacture plants here.
do they drive on the wrong side of the road and have bad radiator grills?
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Originally posted by storch
do they drive on the wrong side of the road and have bad radiator grills?
In Japan, they drive on the left in cars with the steering wheel on the right, just as in the UK. This came in handy when I had the two Toyotas I bought - the indicators were on the right not the left. I never had any problems with the radiator grilles of my Japanese cars.
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Originally posted by beet1e
In Japan, they drive on the left in cars with the steering wheel on the right, just as in the UK. This came in handy when I had the two Toyotas I bought - the indicators were on the right not the left. I never had any problems with the radiator grilles of my Japanese cars.
good news then. I thought that since all you anglanders had bad teeth then the cars you produced would have bad grills.
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Well no, you're wrong about that. I have a dental checkup every 6 months, and have not had to have a tooth drilled since 1988. Maybe you need to review the sources of your "facts"?
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RPM
are you on I-10 or I-20? I get thru texas alot and buy about 200-300 gallons of diesel each time. 800 horsepower cats use alot of fuel. would rather support your store than the big chain truckstops. do you take t-check?
JT
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Originally posted by lazs2
answer me... Do you realize that higher gas prices are only the effect of more tax?
No, I don't agree with that. As was explained in detail in one of the other gas price threads, the price is driven by demand. The price could be lower if demand was reduced, so you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by driving 12mpg guzzlers.
Looking at Storch's example, gas where he lives is now $2.69 down from a peak of $3.23. Average mileage per annum is about 12,000. Therefore a 12mpg gas guzzler will use 1000 gallons of gas each year. The annual cost of that now where Storch lives: $2690, down from $3230 at the post Katrina peak.
What we can see from this is that 60 potential buyers of 12mpg guzzlers like the one Mrs. Storch now drives were dissuaded from buying one when faced with an increase in running costs of $540 per annum, and that's just at the ONE dealership where storch goes. $540, dare I say it, is a pittance - and a price worth paying to see a dramatic reduction in America's over dependence on oil. So if said gas guzzlers were to be surcharged by a fuel wastage penalty of $540 on the sticker price, I'd say that was a fair deal :aok
And... if demand for gas could be brought down, then the price would come down too - and that would benefit everyone, not just in terms of cost, but in terms of reduced greenhouse gases and consumption of valuable natural resources. But... when the ROTW tries to explain that to Americans (eg. Kyoto summit), we're accused of being "socialists".
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I dunno Beet. Alot of folks in America are 2,3, even 4 car families. Some use econo-boxes for commuting, and the gas guzzlers for other purposes. The Gas Guzzling trucks *do* have a purpose in America, since we have such a large island with so much to do, like the one that pulls my 21 ft. boat and carries my 11.5 camper so that I can put smiles on the faces of the next American generation. ;)
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/120067282.jpg)
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/120067281.jpg)
Now please kindly take my Global Warmer out of your proverbial crosshairs. :D
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/120067935.jpg)
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Originally posted by beet1e
No, I don't agree with that. As was explained in detail in one of the other gas price threads, the price is driven by demand. The price could be lower if demand was reduced, so you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by driving 12mpg guzzlers.
Looking at Storch's example, gas where he lives is now $2.69 down from a peak of $3.23. Average mileage per annum is about 12,000. Therefore a 12mpg gas guzzler will use 1000 gallons of gas each year. The annual cost of that now where Storch lives: $2690, down from $3230 at the post Katrina peak.
What we can see from this is that 60 potential buyers of 12mpg guzzlers like the one Mrs. Storch now drives were dissuaded from buying one when faced with an increase in running costs of $540 per annum, and that's just at the ONE dealership where storch goes. $540, dare I say it, is a pittance - and a price worth paying to see a dramatic reduction in America's over dependence on oil. So if said gas guzzlers were to be surcharged by a fuel wastage penalty of $540 on the sticker price, I'd say that was a fair deal :aok
And... if demand for gas could be brought down, then the price would come down too - and that would benefit everyone, not just in terms of cost, but in terms of reduced greenhouse gases and consumption of valuable natural resources. But... when the ROTW tries to explain that to Americans (eg. Kyoto summit), we're accused of being "socialists".
gas was $2.29 at my last fill'mup. frau storch drives roughly 7 miles per day for an approximation of 2600 miles annually. I'll spend more money on detailing that vehicle than I will on fuel. I know this is not the average and your numbers are quite accurate but personally my response to the SUV's fuel consumption was and is "pffft"(it's up to 12.4 mpg now). now about those "greenhouses" beet1e, I think I've already explained to you on a previous occasion that our superior AMERICAN greenhouses are properly constructed and diligently maintained. eg. there are no "greenhouse gases" escaping into the atmosphere from this country. see to your own flimsily constructed greenhouses. any "greenhouse gases" found over North America have no doubt escaped from those notoriously inefficient mexican and canadian greenhouses.
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Ripsnort - I'm sure your boat is very nice. But based on your other text, you seem to be assuming that only America has boats and therefore only America needs the vehicles that can tow them. Here's a nice pic of the River Thames, about 5 miles from where I live. And yes we do have the vehicles that can tow them, hence the various slipways to be found in the area.
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/boats.jpg)
Storch - so your wife does 50 miles a week and uses a 3-tonne 12mpg V8 monster to do it? Does she tow a boat as well? :lol
BTW I'm no eco-angel - I remember the days when I used to piss away 100 litres of Avgas on a Saturday afternoon travelling over to Le Touquet in France for lunch at Les Escales...
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Mission Viejo...southern california, may not be the worst...definate suck though.
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sheesh.... gas costs what it costs... the cheaper the better... gouging is illegal and tax on gas is immoral... If it get's too expensive then we will either find more or use something else..
In the meantime drive whatever you like and can afford.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sheesh.... gas costs what it costs... the cheaper the better... gouging is illegal and tax on gas is immoral... If it get's too expensive then we will either find more or use something else..
In the meantime drive whatever you like and can afford.
One thing that might lead to cheaper gas is if demand was reduced. Hardly likely where people think it's right and proper to drive 12mpg gas guzzlers, which they consider to be "pretty economical". ^
The price is governed by the laws of supply and demand, Lazs. To use a somewhat laughable hypothetical example (but one which our wise and mutual friend Mr. Toad assures me could be applied in practice) imagine if all car drivers switched to horses and carts. The demand for oil would take a nose dive. The people selling the oil would have so much they wouldn't know what to do with it, and would have to reduce its price drastically to sell it at all.
Conversely, if we continue to boost the demand for oil by wasting it, the price will be high and will climb higher. Oil and gas are bought on world markets, and what we have to remember is that China's total energy demand is forecast to grow at 3.2 per cent a year over the next 20 years. The northern hemisphere is just entering winter: Let's see what happens to oil prices in the next 2-3 months...
The more we waste, the more it will cost.
Ripsnort seems to think that some sort of monster V8 truck is needed to tow a 21ft boat. This, of course, is bollocks. 21ft? Pffft... I used to tow a 30ft glider trailer behind my car which had a 1.8 litre petrol engine, and there was no problem. My aunt and uncle had two cruise boats, and as far as I know they did not need anything other than an ordinary car to tow them. Still, I'm talking European cars here.
:aok
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Ok... so supply and demand guide gas prices... except in your country where it is mostly tax of course...
So you are saying that my cars are making gas more expensive for you? So what?
What are you gonna do about it, ban my cars? Tax em? See... that is what it all comes down too... If it is something you take an interest in like gas prices... all of a sudden you want to mess with the free market.
How do you know that using a lot of gas is not a good thing? conserving only lets the oil companies continue as they have been... let's use the stuff up or force em to find more and get on with it.
Using a lot of fuel hastens the solution... if you are conserving then you are part of the problem.
oh... and so far as towing.... Have you ever towed anything up a...... mountain?
lazs
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Lazs
Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or you don't know what you're talking about. I suspect the answer is both. There's no point in continuing.
Toodle Pip.
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especially since you have no arguement?
do you believe that gas prices and consumption should be government regulated in order to save you money?
lazs
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I say we make the rest of the world drive horse-drawn carriages while we in America reap the benefits of 50 cent/gallon gasoline. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I say we make the rest of the world drive horse-drawn carriages while we in America reap the benefits of 50 cent/gallon gasoline. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
:aok :aok :aok :aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
especially since you have no arguement?
You wouldn't recognise one if it hit you on the nose. Heck, you can't even spell it. Stick to inventing skewed figures about homicide stats. You're good at that.
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.
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Just for the record my Touareg gets almost 30mpg on the highway thank you very much.
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My Volvo gets approximately 9 MPG but that is while towing our 9.25 ton house behind it and with my 90 BMW K75 RT motorcycle on the back of the tow vehicle. The bike does get a bit over 40 MPG and is much more fun to drive anyhow.
As to how much we drove this year. We drove frm AZ. up to Kansas then NE to Indianna, S to Tennessee, E again to North Carolina to see Seagoon and back to Tennessee for a bit. After a While we were back in Indiana, Wisconsin, Indiana, Missouri (Branson for a couple weeks), back to Kansas for a conferance, W to Colorado Springs to see Bodhi then S to New Mexico and back to AZ. for Dr. and dentist visists as well as spend some time with the kid.
We covered about 17,000 miles as opposed to the 23,000 + last year. This year, who knows. We'll decide where to go as we get closer to the springtime. Right now we are thinking of seeing the DC area after visiting grand kids in TX. and LA. then traveling across the Northern states to Washington, Oregon, maybe a bit of Kalifornia before heading East via Idaho, Wyoming to Kansas for an annual conferance then SW back to AZ. for part of the winter.
It sounds like a lot but when we figured out how much the wife and I drove a year combined back and forth to work as well as all the other driving daily life required we realized we are using less fuel to criss cross the US in our nomadic lifestyle. This way we are also having a grand time seeing the country meeting new folks and some of the people on the BBS to boot. Each trip brings us to new people I have only "spoken to" via this BBS. It's a neat way to get faces associated with board handles and find that they aren't really very different folks at all. We look forward to meeting more of ya's. At least those who can be reached via roads. I refuse to drive across the atlantic or Pacific!:cool:
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I for one Need a big SUV.
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so what is your arguement beet?
should we artifically raise prices here so that demand will go down and you will pay less?
It is stupid...if gas was cheaper over there you govenment would just tax it more... admit it... you are screwed because you think it is a good idea to have big government... when it fails... you blame everyone else.
lazs
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motorcycles rule.
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I was thinking that maybe it had somethig to do with this
NJ Sues Oil Companies Over Post-Katrina Gas-Price Gouging
Hess, Motiva Shell, Sunoco and Independents Are Targets
Not a single NJ suit has to do with actual price gouging. The suits were filed primarily because it's illegal to change prices more than once a day in NJ, and some marketers did that (to reflect massively increased wholesale prices changing multiple times per day). The alternative was to close their doors for 24 hours when they found the price of the gasoline they had to buy in the afternoon was 50 cents more than when they checked it and set the day's prices in the morning. Some did close their doors - tough luck of you needed gas. There were also an assortment of bookeeping type errors encountered in the “investigation” that you would expect to find with such a heavily regulated industry with labor quality issues. Yet, for some reason, “gouging” is heavily used in their materials :) This is a political issue in NJ, a way to get the angry villagers to open the door to the Gov.s office.
I asked the point AG type on the issue (Kimberly Ricketts) via e-mail through her PR handler if she would rather have stations shut down for 24 hours rather than sell gas at a loss, meaning that you may not find gas on your way to work that morning. She refused to comment this common sense question citing "ongoing lawsuits" even though there is a mountain of pro AG press on the issue. Again, not a single suit was related to selling gasoline at a price that would be considered excessive compared to the wholesale price. Nada, none.
At some points it even interfered with the state's below-cost selling laws (can't sell gas below your cost, can’t change price to reflet increased costs...) Rickett’s response was to waive the below cost law so retailers could sell all the gasoline they wanted to at a loss... how swell!
I actually listened to two hours of NJ Assembly committee meeting on the issue. Expert after expert, including consumer advocates and state experts repeatedly said... don't blame the retailer. It wasn't something the grandstanders wanted to hear. You can’t pad your poll ratings by suing a hurricane or two. You can find the meeting on web audio (a special treat) and here is the PDF transcript: http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/legislativepub/pubhear/atr091505.pdf
Gasoline prices are dropping because supply is coming back into the market as refiners continue to come online and the massive imports of gasoline from Sept. onward (that come when prices encourage imports) that leveled the market pretty quickly even days after the destruction.
Charon
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beet said (after he claimed that he was being picked on for being a socialist big government guy)
"is that 60 potential buyers of 12mpg guzzlers like the one Mrs. Storch now drives were dissuaded from buying one when faced with an increase in running costs of $540 per annum, and that's just at the ONE dealership where storch goes. $540, dare I say it, is a pittance - and a price worth paying to see a dramatic reduction in America's over dependence on oil. So if said gas guzzlers were to be surcharged by a fuel wastage penalty of $540 on the sticker price, I'd say that was a fair deal "
So beets solution is a $540 tax to stop people from making choices as a free individual... said tax would go to....... Ta da..... the government to maybe start yet another agency.
Beet has been a socialist so long that he doesn't even recognize it in himself anymore. He points to a commie and says... "I'm not as bad as that guy"
lazs
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back in the late '80s there was a gas guzzler tax attached to the 450/500 series mercedes benz. I don't recall it being applied to any other vehicles. is that what you would like to see beet1e? $2.19/gal here today.
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Originally posted by storch
back in the late '80s there was a gas guzzler tax attached to the 450/500 series mercedes benz. I don't recall it being applied to any other vehicles. is that what you would like to see beet1e? $2.19/gal here today.
Storch, not only that, but car firms selling cars in the US were penalised if they did not sell a quota of cars which got gas mileage which was acceptable to the government of the day. In fact the British car firm Jaguar was fined $6m for not producing a sufficient proportion of "economy cars". A Jaguar spokeman at that time explained that Jaguar produced only luxury cars with relatively large engines, and that it was cheaper for Jaguar to pay the fine than to tarnish its image by producing 3-door hatchbacks. So no, Mercedes Benz was not the only car company in the US to be penalised by a campaign against gas guzzlers. So beets solution is a $540 tax to stop people from making choices as a free individual...
No Lazs, I don't see that a customer having spent $42K on a car would be "stopped" from choosing that car by an extra $540 fuel wastage surcharge, just as they're not stopped by registration costs in states like California where the cost of registering a vehicle is linked to its value. Note that any such fuel wastage surcharge would not be a compulsory "tax" and, were it to be implemented, could be avoided by not purchasing a wasteful vehicle. But... the drop in demand for fuel as a result of tens of thousands of motorists nationwide turning away from 12mpg gas guzzlers could mean that the price drops in such a way that the average motorist realises savings of.... $540/annum. Don't agree with the figures? Maybe you could come up with your own, using your expertise in the newly discovered mathematical field of Lazsmatics, in which any Arab numeral in the range 0-9 is interchangeable with any other, such that 1.7 = 2.0 =2.5 = 3.3 = 5.5, as your sums have shown in certain other threads on this board. As for understanding market trends, we have Lazsonomics, in which the traditional economic indicators such as the Dow Jones index are replaced by the only two economic factors that matter in this field of study: The price of gas, and the cost of a random basket of goods at WalMart. How do you know that using a lot of gas is not a good thing? conserving only lets the oil companies continue as they have been... let's use the stuff up or force em to find more and get on with it.
Yes, I can see that in the mind of the guy who pioneered the fields of Lazsmatics and Lazsonomics, this would make perfect sense.
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I agree with Laz. Gas is available, so buy it and use it in what ever manner you wish, just like anything else offered for sale. It's cheap over here becaue we don't tax the hell out of it.
Why do we need to save gas again? Because it will run out some day? If we save gas, it will still run out one day.
When the oil supplies begin to run out, there will be incentive to have an alternate to it by then.
Until then, let's just gobble it all up while it's cheap. It helps the economy to have cheap gas. To over tax gas is just stupid.
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(http://www.arizonaprogreen.com/pump.jpg)
took this pic at the pump yesterday. $2.27 a gallon. Note the inspiring message left by some brainy type, "rats" underlined.
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$2.27 is better than here.
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"3-door hatchbacks"
I have never seen the POTUS or Queen Elizabeth II riding around in such a vehicle for any signifigant length of time. If those little cars are so excellent, then why aren't our leaders leading by example? The President typically rides around in a Cadillac limo, and the Queen is known for being transported in Range Rovers. Neither type of vehicle is known for getting terribly good mileage.
Show me a vehicle that is equal to my Buick but also gets 45-50 MPG and costs the same and I'll buy it. I wouldn't mind doubling my gas mileage, but I refuse to make the kind of trade-off that I'd have to make in order to buy the high-mileage cars which are currently available. Heck, if I drove your Audi, Beet1e, I would have ended up with my car being torn apart on my last trip to WVa (I had to drive the Buick through a creek bed, then tie a rope to my bumper to pull out another vehicle).
By the way Beet1e, just how many people do you think drive "3 tonne" vehicles that get 12 MPG? Yes, I know you're using that phrase in the same manner as I use "tin can go-karts", but that doesn't mean I can't press you on the issue :P
J_A_B
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socialist economics allways kills me... so beet is saying that taxing gas more will reduce the price? Taxing only leads to more taxing. and then when things go up as they are wont to do.... even more expese..
or perhaps we can tax our gas into low prices like they do in england? How has making gas cost so much in limeyland led to cheaper fuel for everyone?
lazs
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Originally posted by J_A_B
By the way Beet1e, just how many people do you think drive "3 tonne" vehicles that get 12 MPG?
I think you'll find that storch described his wife's car as such, earlier in this thread. The answer to your question is therefore... 60 less than would have been the case just at storch's dealership alone. Repeated nationwide it would equate to many thousands of people who bought something more frugal.
But oh how quickly we forget. Just a few short weeks ago, people were whining about the post-Katrina gas prices as if their world had ended. People on this very board were giving up their cars and switching to other forms of transport. I don't think we're out of the woods regarding the fuel shortage issue. Let's see what happens as N. America and Europe enter the long winter ahead...
As for my tin-can Audi, I'm getting it tomorrow! Don't know if I'll be driving through any creek beds (what's one of them?) but it does have variable 4WD, which was my main reason for getting it now - before the winter snow and ice. Given that even my FWD petrol GM POS from 1986 could tow a 30ft glider trailer uphill to the Long Mynd glider site, I have no doubt my tin can Audi would be able to do it too. No trade off for me - I'll have all the seats I need, and the luggage compartment will be more than adequate. I already know it can accelerate to motorway cruising speeds with consummate ease. I'm expecting around 46mpg overall average, and a maintenance interval of 18,000 miles. What more could I want? Perfect! :aok
Lazs - unknot your panties.
______________________
"Waste not, want not" - 28th US Pres. Woodrow Wilson
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Just to point out. It is not neccessarily true the larger vehicle is worse on fuel usage than the smaller one.
Take a car which gets 30MPG and drive it 90 miles a day, versus the vehicle which gets 10MPG but only gets driven 10 miles a day,..which is more frugal (aside from using the 30MPG vehicle on the 10 mile/day drive)?
I think we should levy a variable rate tax against vehicles based on thier economy. The worse the gas mileage, the higher the tax. Vehicles which have no EPA rating pay the highest level of tax. Farmers and truck drivers (16 wheelers) should be exempt. Maybe all commercial vehicles should be exempt.
Take the money from that tax and fund fuel/power alternative research and development. Seems to make too much sense to me, so it will never happen.
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skuzzy - I think your suggestion makes sense. But you mentioned the T-word 4 times, so Lazs will have you down an an uber-socialist from now henceforth and for all eternity!
:lol
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Ah well, I have been called worse and I am sure I will be called worse as time goes on. Stuff happens. :)
I hate taxes and really dislike government intervention, but the private sector has no real impetus to toss thier money at alternate solutions.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ah well, I have been called worse and I am sure I will be called worse as time goes on. Stuff happens. :)
I hate taxes and really dislike government intervention, but the private sector has no real impetus to toss thier money at alternate solutions.
nor will they until the cheapest currently available energy sources are completely exploited. go watch starman, you'll feel much better later.
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"People on this very board were giving up their cars and switching to other forms of transport. "
I wasn't among them. Some people are funny like that. I'm glad you like the Audi, Beet1e (and I really mean that, too).
Believe it or not, on that same trip to WVa(it was in the Spencer area), I actually saw a smaller vehicle which impressed me to a degree. We had to drive up a 1-lane dirt trail on the side of a fairly steep hill/small mountain. I managed to force the Buick up it, but couldn't turn around. It's a dead-end, so when we finished the day's business, there was only one way out. Lets just say that backing down a steep, wet, 1-lane dirt trail with no guardrails in a Buick sedan isn't exactly "incredibly safe". A buddy who was along was driving one of those Korean 4X4 mini-SUV's; I'm not sure of the specific model. Somehow, and I will never understand how this was possible, he managed to TURN AROUND within the space of that narrow lane and go down forwards. If I move to WVa (I've been considering it for some time), I think I'll probably invest in a similar sort of vehicle for use in those sorts of conditions.
"I think we should levy a variable rate tax against vehicles based on thier economy. The worse the gas mileage, the higher the tax."
We have this--it's called the gas tax. Use more gas, pay more tax. We have it, but I don't like it.
I dislike any tax like that because all it does is shaft the poor while having little to no effect on the wealthy. If you want to force people into crappy little econo-boxes, then at least force it on EVERYONE--including the rich and our leaders.
J_A_B
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storch, I have no idea why watching a movie would change the way I feel, nor do I really have any idea why you think I need to change how I feel.
I posed a propostion. No one has to like it. I do not really care if you do or don't. At least I made a proposition. I guess I could have taken a cheap shot at someone instead, but that's not really my style. :D
JAB: The gas tax is fixed. I just suggested making it variable. It should impact the poor very little to not at all as most poor people drive smaller cars anyway.
Rich would be impacted as they normally do drive gas guzzlers.
It's not about forcing anyone into anything.
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"It should impact the poor very little to not at all as most poor people drive smaller cars anyway."
You live in a city, don't you?
J_A_B
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Raised on a farm. Lived in the country most of my life. Would be in it today had the city not expanded and caught me. Looking to move out farther away again. My wife already commutes about 100 miles a day.
What's the point of the question?
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"If you have something to say, then say it. "
I'm saying that what I quoted from you is inaccurate for some regions of the country, but likely true in urban or suburban areas. Hence my [accurate] belief that you're approaching the issue from the perspective of a city-dweller. You probably see all those people with more money than brains driving in rush-hour traffic with their 10 MPG Hummers and crap like that. Yes, that's stupid, and represents one of the downsides of American freedom--having freedom means being free to do dumb things.
On the other hand, when I think of your suggestion I immediately think of what it would do to someone who gets seasonal work at best but needs a 4x4 just to get up his driveway.
I think of how most of the more wealthy people in my own rust-belt town drive "trendy" little sardine cans like small BMW's and New Beetles, while less well-off people drive whatever they can afford--very often older cars or pickups with bad mileage just because they're easier to work on.
I also think of myself. The thought of being penalized for driving larger vehicles bugs me because small vehicles simply lack the attributes I seek, and I don't exactly qualify as "wealthy" (I drive a 10-year-old car for crying out loud). That 50 MPG Geo Metro isn't going to help my wife pay the bills if I get run down by a drunk. I can't even drive something like a Geo without feeling naked and helpless and at the mercy of chance.
J_A_B
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Just to be correct JAB, my perspective is one of being sick and tired of being a slave to an oil based economy. It was ok when we supplied our own oil, but when I look around at how much independence our country, as a whole, has lost, it sickens me.
I am more than willing to give up a few more pennies per gallon if it means we can get our collective heads out from under one of the guillotines we have built.
I am not going to say the idea would not cause some people pain. It probably would. I am not even sure if it could be implemented given the logistics involved, but it is an idea. Do you think we should not be trying to get out from under an oil based economy?
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lets invade iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh wait...
lets invade canada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And how would that keep us from being so dependent on oil?
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because they use oil and that is bad. liberate canada!
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"Just to be correct JAB, my perspective is one of being sick and tired of being a slave to an oil based economy."
"Do you think we should not be trying to get out from under an oil based economy?"
I absolutely agree that we should explore alternatives to foreign oil. I do not think additional taxation is the answer; government already sucks up something like half of what we make. The money to fund R&D for alternatives to foreign oil could likely be found from various wasteful government projects, if only Washington wasn't too corrupt to do it.
J_A_B
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Uhmm,..that would be thier problem. No reason for us to get involved. I suspect you are trying to be glib, and I am not picking up on it.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Just to be correct JAB, my perspective is one of being sick and tired of being a slave to an oil based economy."
"Do you think we should not be trying to get out from under an oil based economy?"
I absolutely agree that we should explore alternatives to foreign oil. I do not think additional taxation is the answer; government already sucks up something like half of what we make. The money to fund R&D for alternatives to foreign oil could likely be found from various wasteful government projects, if only Washington wasn't too corrupt to do it.
J_A_B
I agree with that as well.
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its a shame that there is no way to tap into the energy used by keyboard typing...
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J_A_B - I'll post pics of my new tin can right here in this thread when I get it back to my hovel tomorrow lunchtime. I'll have to do it then, as it will never be that clean again! :)
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lend-lease the military to the oil companies when comes to securing foreign owned resources, have the true cost per gallon reflected at the pumps, with no hidden taxes.
allow alien tort claims.
those would be good incentives, in a free market anyhow.
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Farmers and truck drivers (16 wheelers) should be exempt. Maybe all commercial vehicles should be exempt.
Skuzzy for president. geez anyone want to pay my fuel tax bill? just shy of 18,000 USD last year. oh btw most of us have 18 wheels
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
storch, I have no idea why watching a movie would change the way I feel, nor do I really have any idea why you think I need to change how I feel.
I posed a propostion. No one has to like it. I do not really care if you do or don't. At least I made a proposition. I guess I could have taken a cheap shot at someone instead, but that's not really my style. :D
JAB: The gas tax is fixed. I just suggested making it variable. It should impact the poor very little to not at all as most poor people drive smaller cars anyway.
Rich would be impacted as they normally do drive gas guzzlers.
It's not about forcing anyone into anything.
there is a part in movie where karen allen's character's 1978 pony is running out of gas. and she explains that she needs fuel. jeff bridges character says energy? why? how could you be out of energy so soon? there is hope for the future or at least it makes me feel better to think we progress. lighten up a bit, or not. whatever.
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Originally posted by storch
there is a part in movie where karen allen's character's 1978 pony is running out of gas. and she explains that she needs fuel. jeff bridges character says energy? why? how could you be out of energy so soon? there is hope for the future or at least it makes me feel better to think we progress. lighten up a bit, or not. whatever.
Starman?
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Originally posted by JTs
oh btw most of us have 18 wheels
I see your problem, you need two less wheels, :D
Rember when Diesel was the cheep fuel?? :mad: :cry
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We get by on 14 wheels.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Starman?
yup starman
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Diesel should attract less duty than gasoline. That's the way it is in most Euro countries, although the UK is not one of them. Before the Iraq situation, diesel cost only about two thirds the price of gas in countries like France, Italy, Portugal etc.
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Actually it's a bit more than two thirds, more like 80-85% in my experience.
Based on taxes and lower production cost it should be around two thirds here, but it isn't due to couging. Also there's the annual fuel tax which is around 300€ per year for a passenger car of an average total mass and 80€ for a typical van.
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Originally posted by mora
Actually it's a bit more than two thirds, more like 80-85% in my experience.
Yes, I meant to say that the price of diesel in places like France/Netherlands/Austria is two thirds of the petrol price in the UK.
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skuzzy.. I think you know that if there was a tax that was supposed to go toward finding new energy sources.... it would really go toward finding new ways to power bigger government... all free enterprise research would halt and everyone would try to get in on the graft.
There is indeed hope from the industry and free enterprise... solar panel price per watt had dropped a hundredfold in the last few decades... many new energy sources are being explored by private industry..
I believe industry sees the handwriting on the wall and is looking to be the first with the new sources... conserving and government intervention will only make the problem worse.
Gm spent billions on electric cars but the batteries just aren't up to it... in the meantime... every manufacturer is on the hybrid bandwagon and progress is being made. It will come in it's own time... when it is really needed..
screaming for government to do something is wrong and counter productive in my opinion... look at the other countries with high fuel prices... is the government giving back any of that money to solve the problem? and if they are... is their effort equal to the cost or any better than private industry?
lazs
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prices where I am 2.69-2.79 a gal.
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Originally posted by FuBaR
prices where I am 2.69-2.79 a gal.
geez that's pretty low for the PRC.
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Lazs, you're sounding like a kid who's just filled his pants. Relax! I can't believe you could get so bent out of shape about the proposal to steer people away from gas guzzling cars. $540 on the sticker price of certain designated cars would do it.
I don't like taxation and government interference any more than the next man, and cod knows we have both of them in spades with the Blair govt. But what I like even less is to see the shameless, profligate wastage of finite, natural resources.
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J_A_B - I took delivery of my Audi tin can today. Seems OK - I've had it up to 95mph, but I've not been out for a proper drive yet.
A few pics, taken outside my hovel
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/a3back.jpg) (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/a3int.jpg) (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/a3qtr.jpg)
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Originally posted by beet1e
J_A_B - I took delivery of my Audi tin can today. Seems OK - I've had it up to 95mph, but I've not been out for a proper drive yet.
A few pics, taken outside my hovel
Such poor craftsmanship so bad that they screwed up and put the steering wheel on the wrong side of the damned car! Unbelievable!:( (Can they sqeeze those houses any closer together? :lol )
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"Can they sqeeze those houses any closer together?"
It doesn't look any different than most pre-war communities here in the US look. I'd say the close houses are more sensible for cities and towns than the "suburban sprawl" pattern more common in newer developments.
Thanks for posting the pictures, Beet1e. From what I can tell, your sky looks like it's about the same shade of "dull gray" as the sky here in Ohio is.
Is that vehicle sold as an "Estate" in the UK, or do they use some other term for it? As with most Audi models (and Euro cars in general), it has an interesting blend of performance and practical features. The manual gearbox and dead pedal really stick out to my American eyes.
J_A_B
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J_A_B - yes, the weather is pretty naff right now, and set to get naffer as the week goes by.
The body style of my Audi A3 is known as the "hatchback" - that's where the luggage area is separate from the car normally, but by folding the rear seats can be enlarged and become part of the interior car space. The Audi A4 is the estate car, known in the US as station wagon - the luggage area is part of the interior, however the seats are arranged.
Yes, manual gears - a 6-speed box. I also test drove another A3 with the DSG box - a two pedal system which can be driven in fully automatic mode, or the gears can be made to shift by means of paddles on the steering column or by nudges to the floor mounted lever. I was pretty impressed with it, but unfortunately it is not available with the 4WD "quattro" models, and as I really wanted the 4WD I chose the 6-spd manual box.
Apparently, the engine management system spends the first 1000 miles getting used to me and the way I drive the car! So far so good...
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Since it's modern and I'm in a generous mood, maybe we can upgrade it to "Aluminum can" :)
I'll give you this--it has a balanced appearance and looks like it would hold the road very well even standing still. My Buick, on the other hand, has all the subtle grace of a beached whale.
J_A_B
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nice looking car beet1e
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I like the A3, but having driven its rival, the BMW 1-Series, I prefer that. Both have nice 2.0 L diesel engines.
Unfortunately, the beemer's styling leaves alot to be desired.
Once you've tried 6 manual gears, you can never go back to 5. Since driving my motor, my girlfriend is always reaching for 6th on the motorway in her 5 gear Rover (innuendo not intended).
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Where are the cup holders? (just kidding, I know you can get a ticket for drinking/eating while driving so they don't give you cup holders)
Also, are you going to be one of the 99% of audi drivers who drive 10 mph faster than everyone else, or are you going to drive, like... you know, normal like everyone else?
At least on the A14 North from Cambridge... I drive around 75 most of the time and for every one audi I pass, at least 15 blow past me like I'm driving a lorry. No other car type does that so it makes me wonder if their speedometers are set 10-15 low from the factory, or if that many audi drivers are really that arrogant and convinced that their quattro system makes a difference in braking performance.
I hope you'll be one of the 1% because the worst 2 accidents I've seen on the A14 were both audis, one which was going so fast it was obliterated when the driver rammed a lorry from behind, and another that flipped after clipping the rear end of another car, again obliterating the audi due to grossly excessive speed. It shed parts for nearly 1500 ft and from the amount of blood on the car and ground, I doubt the driver lived.
Don't be that guy please.
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All British Audi drivers are dangerous speed-freaks.
- From your own correspondant.
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Naw, I never said "all". And if I did, I meant "most", meaning "most of the ones I see, and I see a lot in my daily commute up and down the A-14 between Cambridge and Lakenheath"
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I might have a bit of a unique perspective here. I work for Easy Racers, an alternative bicycle company. We work on streamlined Human Powered Vehicles, the most efficient vehicles on the planet. The super mileage competition cars aint got nothin on us. These super streamlined vehicles are capable of 100mph with one horsepower. The current world record stands at 81 MPH.
http://www.easyracers.com/videos/BM_2004.wmv
Of course these are super impractical but the lessons learned are already making it into the car companies heads.
I recently helped Nissan design an Extreme Gravity Racer.
http://www.gravityseries.com
It won the design contest and top speed!
http://www.easyracers.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2128
It was truly mind-bending to hear some of the other manufacturers complete ignorance of basic aerodynamics and physics.
I had quite the philosophical discussion (wee bit drunk) with the Nissan Design America's head design guys as to why they aren't pursuing alternative transportation ideas. Basically it boils down to momentum. The car companies all own and/or are involved with all sorts of industries, from petroleum to steel. Electric or alternative cars seriously threaten the existing paradigm. There is so much more to making cars then simply building them. They swear Toyota and Honda are losing money on every hybrid they sell.
But the good news is, with events like the XGR (extreme gravity racing), where a complete grasp of physics as related to creating efficient vehicles is absolutely necassary, I believe we will see some trickle down of advanced efficent concepts.
The bad news is there is simply no way to make an efficient SUV or Truck. Doesn't matter what you power it with, it still takes the same amount of energy to get from point A to B. Efficient vehicles, by definition, must be light weight and aerodynamic. And there is only one way to get Americans (and the rest of the world) to accept that, when they simply can't afford the gasoline for wasteful vehicles anymore.
I drive a Honda Civic (30+mpg) and a Ninja 250 (70mpg). Gas is still close to $3/gal here in the Bay Area, CA.
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Originally posted by g00b
I might have a bit of a unique perspective here. I work for Easy Racers, an alternative bicycle company. We work on streamlined Human Powered Vehicles, the most efficient vehicles on the planet. The super mileage competition cars aint got nothin on us. These super streamlined vehicles are capable of 100mph with one horsepower. The current world record stands at 81 MPH.
http://www.easyracers.com/videos/BM_2004.wmv
Of course these are super impractical but the lessons learned are already making it into the car companies heads.
I recently helped Nissan design an Extreme Gravity Racer.
http://www.gravityseries.com
It won the design contest and top speed!
http://www.easyracers.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2128
It was truly mind-bending to hear some of the other manufacturers complete ignorance of basic aerodynamics and physics.
I had quite the philosophical discussion (wee bit drunk) with the Nissan Design America's head design guys as to why they aren't pursuing alternative transportation ideas. Basically it boils down to momentum. The car companies all own and/or are involved with all sorts of industries, from petroleum to steel. Electric or alternative cars seriously threaten the existing paradigm. There is so much more to making cars then simply building them. They swear Toyota and Honda are losing money on every hybrid they sell.
But the good news is, with events like the XGR (extreme gravity racing), where a complete grasp of physics as related to creating efficient vehicles is absolutely necassary, I believe we will see some trickle down of advanced efficent concepts.
The bad news is there is simply no way to make an efficient SUV or Truck. Doesn't matter what you power it with, it still takes the same amount of energy to get from point A to B. Efficient vehicles, by definition, must be light weight and aerodynamic. And there is only one way to get Americans (and the rest of the world) to accept that, when they simply can't afford the gasoline for wasteful vehicles anymore.
I drive a Honda Civic (30+mpg) and a Ninja 250 (70mpg). Gas is still close to $3/gal here in the Bay Area, CA.
Damn! I get all worked up watching that video. I think "Target" while driving my 10 mpg Global Warmer 4X4! :D
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Since it's modern and I'm in a generous mood, maybe we can upgrade it to "Aluminum can"
Why thank you sir! Could you make that an Aluminium can? ;) 5 gear Rover
ROFL! I read that but it didn't click until 8 hours later! :lol What car do you drive yourself, Dowding? The bad news is there is simply no way to make an efficient SUV or Truck. Doesn't matter what you power it with, it still takes the same amount of energy to get from point A to B. Efficient vehicles, by definition, must be light weight and aerodynamic. And there is only one way to get Americans (and the rest of the world) to accept that, when they simply can't afford the gasoline for wasteful vehicles anymore.
A nice theory, but not well supported by the facts. The fact is that at Storch's car dealership alone, 60 potential buyers of vehicles like the one Mrs. Storch now drives baulked at the thought of paying an average $540 in extra fuel costs. For a customer about to shell out $42K on the purchase, I don't buy the suggestion that they could not afford the extra $540 for gas. According to Storch's figures, the dealer had to reduce the cost of these vehicles in order to sell them - not by $540, not by $1000, not even by $6000... but by $15000! I put it to you that would-be buyers were deeply affected by the post Katrina gas price shock, and it had little to do with their "not being able to afford" the gas at $3.23. Furthermore, petrol here works out to some $6/gallon, and yet you still see plenty of bourgeois housewives doing the coffee morning commute in their X5/Toureng/Range Rover/Cayenne.... As for economy being possible only in "light weight" vehicles, I expect to get at least 45mpg on average in the Audi I've just bought. It weighs just over 2 tonnes.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Why thank you sir! Could you make that an Aluminium can? ;) ROFL! I read that but it didn't click until 8 hours later! :lol What car do you drive yourself, Dowding? A nice theory, but not well supported by the facts. The fact is that at Storch's car dealership alone, 60 potential buyers of vehicles like the one Mrs. Storch now drives baulked at the thought of paying an average $540 in extra fuel costs. For a customer about to shell out $42K on the purchase, I don't buy the suggestion that they could not afford the extra $540 for gas. According to Storch's figures, the dealer had to reduce the cost of these vehicles in order to sell them - not by $540, not by $1000, not even by $6000... but by $15000! I put it to you that would-be buyers were deeply affected by the post Katrina gas price shock, and it had little to do with their "not being able to afford" the gas at $3.23. Furthermore, petrol here works out to some $6/gallon, and yet you still see plenty of bourgeois housewives doing the coffee morning commute in their X5/Toureng/Range Rover/Cayenne.... As for economy being possible only in "light weight" vehicles, I expect to get at least 45mpg on average in the Audi I've just bought. It weighs just over 2 tonnes.
you pretty well nailed it beet1e. were it not for the deep discount she would now be driving a sleek and efficient toyota minivan. my decision for purchasing that model for her was the justification of her driving practically nothing daily and that we now have a substantially better vehicle for pulling our boat on the few occasions we do tow it. I have foregone purchasing an expedition for myself as I typically drive upwards of 200 miles per day and just don't want to shoulder that much of an energy bill. the tacoma must soldier on until it's appointed day in not too distant 2009/2010. since I pay for all the fuel here at home for myself, my as of yet unmarried daughter and my son as well as my wife everyone other than "mom" drives fairly efficient vehicles by US standards.
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so paying $6 a gallon, allmost all of it tax... has helped limeyland and the world.... how?
lazs
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Supercharged Cooper S, beetle. It's a superb car if you're man enough to take the flak. ;) The supercharger makes a superb whine at 4000 rpm, and it's a rocket up to 60 or 70 mph. Tires are pricey though so I only give it its legs on nice tarmac.
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Originally posted by beet1e
A nice theory, but not well supported by the facts. The fact is that at Storch's car dealership alone, 60 potential buyers of vehicles like the one Mrs. Storch now drives baulked at the thought of paying an average $540 in extra fuel costs. For a customer about to shell out $42K on the purchase, I don't buy the suggestion that they could not afford the extra $540 for gas. According to Storch's figures, the dealer had to reduce the cost of these vehicles in order to sell them - not by $540, not by $1000, not even by $6000... but by $15000! I put it to you that would-be buyers were deeply affected by the post Katrina gas price shock, and it had little to do with their "not being able to afford" the gas at $3.23. Furthermore, petrol here works out to some $6/gallon, and yet you still see plenty of bourgeois housewives doing the coffee morning commute in their X5/Toureng/Range Rover/Cayenne.... As for economy being possible only in "light weight" vehicles, I expect to get at least 45mpg on average in the Audi I've just bought. It weighs just over 2 tonnes.
I disagree heartily. Look at the US Gas Crisis of 1973, it immediately brought mainstream america around to accept cheap, efficient, Japanese cars. Basically, I believe Americans, and people at large, will always purchase the least efficient vehicle their budgets will allow. When gas hits $10/gal (adjusted for inflation) or more, I think people may be forced into purchasing efficient vehicles, simply because few people are willing to spend a large percentage of their entire income on fuel.
I don't think $3/gal or even $6/gal is enough to force people into efficent vehicles. 45 mpg is pretty good. I guess your definition of "economy" is different than mine. It's entirely possible to build cars with better than 100mpg, oh, but they'd be small and slow, and no one would buy them.
But basically, humanity will be forced, kicking and screaming, out of their trucks and SUVs and other wastefull practices by simple economics. We are living in a golden age.
g00b
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Originally posted by lazs2
so paying $6 a gallon, allmost all of it tax... has helped limeyland and the world.... how?
It's meant that demand for oil has been less, so we don't have to invade oil rich countries to safeguard our supply. We just lend a helping hand to those that do. ;)
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Good thing we built all those new refineries
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Originally posted by beet1e
It's meant that demand for oil has been less, so we don't have to invade oil rich countries to safeguard our supply. We just lend a helping hand to those that do. ;)
I don't understand why they would want demand for gas to be less, let alone why they would raise tax to accomplish that. Why not just ration gas instead?
I don't see much point in conserving fuel anyway. What are we gonna do, save or extend by 5 years the inevitable day when none is left a few hundred years from now? Doesn't make sense.
Having a prohibitave tax on fuel is pretty dumb. It effects the whole economy when there are higher fuel prices. If you guys would drop most of that fuel tax, I'd bet your economy would get a huge boost of activity, as people would have more money and more fun driving and traveling.
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You guys ever hear that Rush Limbaugh parady song, based off of Elvis' "In the Ghetto"?
"In A Yugo" Pretty funny.
http://www.audiocomedy.net/political/yugo.shtml
"as those small wheels turn
50 miles a gallon with their knees in their chest, there gonna save enough gas for all the rest, in a Yugo"
Really well done and funny.
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so beet... all the tax and conservation in your country has meant that you are not subject to the rise and fall of prices based on demand?
if we use less here they will simply shut down a few refineries and cap some wells to keep the price up.
lazs
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I still want to know why it's such a big deal to conserve fuel. What's the point?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Supercharged Cooper S..
How's the career in hairdressing going anyway? (http://www.battlefield.no/forum/style_emoticons/bf/gay.gif)
Just kidding, nice wheels.