Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on November 25, 2005, 01:18:27 PM
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Grun and GTO..
They came out to my place and I got to shoot gruns HK .45 and GTO's sig 45.
beautiful day out and we had a good time.
lazs
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did you take them back to yours and clean eachother's barrels?
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lol
I would have said "rub" each other's barrels...but nevertheless a fine comment.
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either way, "they had a good time"
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soo.... you guys are homosexual? Not that there is anything wrong with that after all.... you are..... british... but...
Thanks for reminding me tho.... I did put off cleaning all the guns... gonna have to get on it today.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I did put off cleaning all the guns... gonna have to get on it today.
enjoy!! :D
were you playing hard to get?
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No pictures?
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Let's hope Grun shared the secret of his new diet with Gto. :aok
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grun is much fitter than you beet. perhaps he will share with you?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Grun and GTO..
They came out to my place and I got to shoot gruns HK .45 and GTO's sig 45.
beautiful day out and we had a good time.
lazs
I love my P220. One of the best .45s I've ever fired.
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Originally posted by lazs2
grun is much fitter than you beet. perhaps he will share with you?
lazs
Yeah? Well, I did climb to the top of Ben Nevis 2 months ago - from sea level to the summit is 4406ft - took us about 4 hours. Besides, Grun is half my age. He should be fitter! :)
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4 hrs? then I guess I could do it in two.
Grun looks good. I seen him last year and I didn't even recognize him now. He really is very fit. He is young tho so he should be but.. it is good that he is getting into good eating and exercise habits now.
He is also a VERY good shot.. he is a natural.
He is also the only person I have ever seen who actually wanted to shoot my Smith and Wesson 340 PD again after once trying it. I think he fired about 25 rounds out of it. My hand would still be sore.
lazs
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Apparently Grun 'looks good' and his hands are nice and rough.
Thanks for the heads-up Lazs.
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I was wondering if there were a brit left who wasn't thinking gay thoughts...
forgot about you dowding... thanks for checking in and.... have safe sex ya hear?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
4 hrs? then I guess I could do it in two.
Doubtful - you would dehydrate, and as you don't drink enough water, you would run into difficulties - cramps etc. But by all means, come over and try it - I'd like another go, and we could then go to that Alvie Estate place that Mr. Toad told us about, and do some clay pigeon shooting. As for Grun doing it, even more doubtful - oh wait, he no longer has a body like a barrel - grun
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Originally posted by lazs2
4 hrs? then I guess I could do it in two.
Grun looks good. I seen him last year and I didn't even recognize him now. He really is very fit. He is young tho so he should be but.. it is good that he is getting into good eating and exercise habits now.
He is also a VERY good shot.. he is a natural.
He is also the only person I have ever seen who actually wanted to shoot my Smith and Wesson 340 PD again after once trying it. I think he fired about 25 rounds out of it. My hand would still be sore.
lazs
After ten rounds my hand is still sore.... That 340 PD is not a handgun it's is a torture device.
Laz email me the few pics and I will host them.
What attracted all the eurostudmuffins and the women beater to this thread?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
What attracted all the eurostudmuffins and the women beater to this thread?
Envy. :)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Envy. :)
+1
Karaya
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pwnt
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definate case of barrel envy :O
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LOL :)
I'm not sure how to host pictures just yet, maybe gto should do it.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
After ten rounds my hand is still sore.... That 340 PD is not a handgun it's is a torture device.
Laz email me the few pics and I will host them.
What attracted all the eurostudmuffins and the women beater to this thread?
The paper towel/Windex bill is getting ridiculous around here. :)
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I sent em to grun... The women in his house are probly hoarding the ones of me.
barrel envy... never could understand the fear of firearms.
Well... in the case of the little PD.. there is some small reason..
lazs
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL :)
I'm not sure how to host pictures just yet, maybe gto should do it.
I can host em for a short period. simfreak@gmail.com
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Ok here are the pics, we forgot to take a cam to the range so these are at Laz's place.
Here is Laz and I, I am holding his very nice Kmber. He is holding his Ruger .44 mag and the 360PD IE the torture device.
That thing is nuts, it bruised my hand and after 10 rounds I needed a walk on the beach with Airhead to recover! (bastage was prolly with Sob though)
The .44mag was a pleasure (really) after that nutty little gun.
Must be something wrong with Laz's Camera though, it looks like it took atleast 20 pounds off my frame!
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9206/torturedevice5pn.jpg)
Here is Grun, holding the rifle that saved Britian from the germans! He pried the kimber from my paws for this shot too.
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3113/grunm13tf.jpg)
Another of Grun with the great M1, and some crappy german Mauser, it is amazing the Germans did so well with that thing they called a "rifle". :D
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1820/grunm1kar987fz.jpg)
Me and Grun, and I am not on anything!
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7916/grungto0gy.jpg)
Grun and Laz
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9395/grunanlaz8vi.jpg)
Was a good time, hopefully next time we will bring more ammo and targets though!
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Was a good time, hopefully next time we will bring more ammo and targets though!
And invite the locals....cough cough.
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I dunno, Lazs does look kinda dainty in that first pic. :D
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The only thing missing is the corn cob pipes and the fat chicks with missing teeth:p
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Wooow...Amazing change Grun, simply amazing.
Hats off man.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
The only thing missing is the corn cob pipes and the fat chicks with missing teeth:p
Well the Fat chick with missing teeth didnt make it, your mom said she was busy. :D
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Holy CRAP Grun! You've lost alot of weight since I saw you up here in Seattle! Great job! Keep up the good work!
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Originally posted by Furball
did you take them back to yours and clean eachother's barrels?
Originally posted by Curval
lol
I would have said "rub" each other's barrels...but nevertheless a fine comment.
Originally posted by Dowding
Apparently Grun 'looks good' and his hands are nice and rough.
Thanks for the heads-up Lazs.
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/120254341.jpg)
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the gun I am limp wristing in the first pic is the 340 pd. It weighs 12 oz and every one thinks it is a toy gun when I hand it to em... until we load it up with 125 federal hollowpoints and let em shoot it.
sorry Russian... till the last minute I didn't really know if those guys were gonna make it... let's all go out shooting soon..
I brought about 30 targets and we had over 500 rounds of ammo... I figured it would be enough.... you couldn't even walk near the shooting bench for all the .45 brass on the ground.
If you guys had seen grun a year ago you would know that... I really didn't recognize him.
Anyhow... we all had a good time.
lazs
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rip... dowding has allready told everyone here that he is gay and the rest are brits so... It's ok... I expect them to interject their gay culture into every thing someone says.
lazs
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Yeah we should go again sometime soon, that was a good time.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sorry Russian... till the last minute I didn't really know if those guys were gonna make it... let's all go out shooting soon..
I'm in.
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Originally posted by SOB
I dunno, Lazs does look kinda dainty in that first pic. :D
Nevermind the first one...it is the last one I'm worried about.
If Grun was a real man lazs would be one arm short now.
;)
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well see curval.... amoung heterosexual men secure in their masculinity.... a manly arm around another man is an accepted thing (heh... grun... I win huh?)
we did bet on if it would be curval or dowding that would spout off first if I put my arm around grun or limp wristed the 340pd.... the 340 pd thing is a joke that only someone who has ever fired one equiped with wood grips could possibly understand.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well see curval.... amoung heterosexual men secure in their masculinity.... a manly arm around another man is an accepted thing (heh... grun... I win huh?)
we did bet on if it would be curval or dowding that would spout off first if I put my arm around grun or limp wristed the 340pd.... the 340 pd thing is a joke that only someone who has ever fired one equiped with wood grips could possibly understand.
lazs
LOL!!!!!
SOB was the first to mention the limp wristed thing....but I do understand about the "secure in their masculinity" thing. It's like wearing pink shorts I guess.:aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
rip... dowding has allready told everyone here that he is gay
:eek:
Wow, when did this "enlightening" come about? Not that there is anything WRONG with that....:huh :rofl
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Originally posted by Curval
LOL!!!!!
SOB was the first to mention the limp wristed thing....but I do understand about the "secure in their masculinity" thing. It's like wearing pink shorts I guess.:aok
That means secure? I always kinda thought the Pink shorts meant confused.:D
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Ripsnort - I took the piss out of myself once in a thread about two years ago. You know, as in not taking yourself seriously or continually having to reassure yourself about how great you are on an obscure internet BBS.
Some people take themselves far too seriously and assume others are the same.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Ripsnort - I took the piss out of myself once in a thread about two years ago. You know, as in not taking yourself seriously or continually having to reassure yourself about how great you are on an obscure internet BBS.
Some people take themselves far too seriously and assume others are the same.
There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic, Dowding. I you for coming forth.
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/120287862.jpg)
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From a guy who has carpeted his garage and whose car has a bra to give it support. Are the curling tongs on the parcel shelf an optional extra?
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Originally posted by Dowding
From a guy who has carpeted his garage and whose car has a bra to give it support. Are the curling tongs on the parcel shelf an optional extra?
Hey, I *do* have hair to curl, just not where you'd normally *expect* the hair to grow!
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The only concern is the fact that the hammer is cocked back on the Kimber. ;)
Nice, clean looking Garand though
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Deviants like yourself are why curling tongs have become the biggest selling BDSM tool in the US today. Source: http://www.cnn.com/BDSM-week/Hardware/Reviews.html
Good to know your a trend setter rather than follower, if you get my drift. Frankly, I'd rather be neither.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hey, I *do* have hair to curl, just not where you'd normally *expect* the hair to grow!
It give me a vision eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkk kkkkkkkkk :confused:
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Originally posted by Eden
The only concern is the fact that the hammer is cocked back on the Kimber. ;)
Nice, clean looking Garand though
Yeah but the safety is on, chamber is empty and the finger isnt on the trigger.
;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hey, I *do* have hair to curl, just not where you'd normally *expect* the hair to grow!
Your not hitting on Dowding are you Rip??:D
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Well the Fat chick with missing teeth didnt make it, your mom said she was busy. :D
Now thats just too funny coming from a guy who looks like jaba the hut.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Now thats just too funny coming from a guy who looks like jaba the hut.
How now!
Jabba has a much longer tail then I do.
I don't eat space frogs either. :D
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
How now!
Jabba has a much longer tail then I do.
I don't eat space frogs either. :D
What no frogs? man thats just un american:)
BTW J/K bout the jaba crap.
I knew you could take it and dish it right back
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Yeah but the safety is on, chamber is empty and the finger isnt on the trigger.
;)
Good to go...double action only slows you down and is less accurate...good call
:)
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From the tone of some of the responses to this thread I can only say that I hope some of you boys are using your Gunslick in the manner for which it was intended.
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eden... safety? on a handgun? why? I never could get used to a 1911 cocked and locked.. I just leave one in the chamber and the hammer down and never mess with the manual safety.
The Garand is cherry. I couldn't believe how nice it was when I bought it.. was a rearsenal like most Garands but pretty much untouched after that and with a really nice greenish parkerize.
lazs
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Yup. or as an ugly old range sergant put it 'That's what the hammers for you dummy'.
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Trick with the berreta is the first round (while shooting on range). Need to remember to **** the hammer back before squeezing off the first round (hammer will be locked back as the weapon cycles for all rounds after the first). This helps a great deal as the trigger pull in double action (with hammer down) is quite significant and often the first round ends up in the dirt...
Rule of thumb...when the hammer is back... the weapon is armed and ready and the intent is clear.
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Hmmm. I guess I should have said "pull the hammer back"
:)
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Trick with the berreta is the first round (while shooting on range). Need to remember to **** the hammer back before squeezing off the first round (hammer will be locked back as the weapon cycles for all rounds after the first). This helps a great deal as the trigger pull in double action (with hammer down) is quite significant and often the first round ends up in the dirt...
The problem with this is that you should be training to shoot on the range as you would in a combat situation. You aren't going to leave a SA/DA pistol holstered with the hammer back unless you're nuts, so why pull it back on the range? Getting over the first shot DA to SA transition in the trigger is something that is trained through. If you ever take a handgun course from ANY reputable gunfighting school, there is NO way you would be pulling the hammer back on a DA pistol other than function checking the pistol. I've been schooled by pretty much every "name" in the Biz, from Jeff Cooper on down, and nobody I've ever trained with has ever recommended drawing your weapon, then messing up your grip to pull the hammer back, then firing because "it's more accurate this way". Of course SA is going to be slightly more accurate, but speed being economy of motion in shooting...well this just runs against the grain, and not just IMO, but everybody I've ever trained with.
As for the 1911 "hammer down" safety condition, it falls into the same category to me. Having to charge the hammer is FAR slower than disengaging the thumb safety, which is something that comes off when establishing a proper "thumbs forward" grip on the pistol anyway. I'm primarily a 1911 shooter, and I draw/fire with VERY fast times, like .4 seconds when shooting from retention position, and .7's and .8's when going to full extention. I have no idea what my times would be having to **** the hammer, but saying it would add a 1/2 second or more wouldn't be a stretch. Again, everybody on this board who shoots like to rail on about self defence. Well it's my opinion that if you are serious about ever using your weapons to defend yourself or others, get some serious training someplace, because both of the above practices are bunk, either on the range, or in combat.
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Bravo Gman.
This why I don't like DA/SA pistols (exception being the CZ 75 as it can be carried chambered, cocked and locked), it requires a lot of extra training to break in the pull force difference between 1st and 2nd shot.
I don't like DAO neither at it trades off a lot of accuracy.
I think that, for police forces, systems like the Glock are the best as they reduce the amount of necessary training for a safe gun handling. Even if some guns are cheaper/more durable, the costs of extra training could easily be higher and can't be overlooked.
About the 1911, isn't it dangerous to carry it chambered with hammer down? Is the link between hammer and firing pin interrupted or can a blow on the hammer cause an accidental dsicharge?
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CZ 75 is a nice gun. My USP is also an sa/da that can be carried cocked and locked.
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Originally posted by Gman
Well it's my opinion that if you are serious about ever using your weapons to defend yourself or others, get some serious training someplace, because both of the above practices are bunk, either on the range, or in combat.
I agree... bottom line is don't use a handgun to fight a war. A handgun is what you use to fight your way to a rife. Home defense is another issue all together. The M-9 Beretta de-***** the hammer (And rotates the firing pin) when the safety is applied so the hammer would be forward and the safety on when stored at home. The trigger pull on the M-9 is heavy in DA and don't forget range shooting (for the military) is mostly about the score. There are more realistic reaction courses and gunfighting schools then that (the Army has some great ones) and those are the ones that really pay off. Bottom line is in a Battle...have a rifle esppecially when all you have is 9mm Ball ammo. There are some who argue the perks of Handguns but in a war I'll disagree (now at home I have the 44magnum for defense...diferent scenario).
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I had some more time to think about this on the way to work this morning.
Seems like two issues are discussed:
1) Training: Fundementally training should be driven by one philosophy "train as you fight". Simple enough it seems (and the first paragraph in any training manual> Training, however, is driven by
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(Hate it when I accidentally send the post before finishing it)
I had some more time to think about this on the way to work this morning.
Seems like two issues are discussed:
1) Training:
Fundementally training should be driven by one philosophy "train as you fight". Simple enough it seems (and the first paragraph in any training manual). Training, however, is driven by:
a) Resouces (who is available to do the training, what ranges/training site are available, what do we have for ammo, pyro etc...basically anything that costs money)
b) Time: both time that is available for planning along with time for execution.
c) Mission: What task/scenario do we want to train (driven by our "real world" mission or "what we expect to be doing worst case). Not everything can be trained all at once. (Also governed by the idea of crawl-walk-run)
d) Level of trainees: Drives where the training needs to start and where it needs to go.
Once all these things are mixed into the pot the training event can be planned and executed. Therefore, not every training event is super high speed (like some of the gun fighting classes I've been to). Basic Pistol Markmanship falls into that category. It is a game where all that matters is passing (I am assuming that pistol scores in the Civilian (I.E. police) also count in the scheme of career progression). A smart person would take every advantage to win (and also try and get something out of all training events) and would pull the hammer back on the first round. Which leads to the second discussion
2) Weapon Readiness Status:
a) Controlled primarily by the Rules of Engagement (or the scenario at hand). Blanket policies regarding the status of your weapon exist and are established by those in charge to balance the prepraredness of execution with the management of safety. The hard, fast rule is "be just as safe as you need to be" when it comes to weapon safety in a combat zone. It is a meaningless as it is obscure. Bottom line is to know your weapon and maintain a serious awareness of your environment. I've had to draw and fire my 9mm on several occasions (in Iraq) and they were all different.
Case 1: Close range, immediate action. Drew the weapon from the holster and fired one round quickly at a range of about 50 ft (followed by the rest of the magazine shortly after). Double action trigger pull.
Case 2: (luckily there was a case 2). Had more time to draw and pull the hammer back. Distance was about 1/4 mile (yup thats right...long story). (By the way, after this I "found" myself a rifle) .
Point is that weapon control is a complicated matter driven by Rules of egnagement (can you have the weapon loaded?... is it on safe? ... can I pull the hammer back?) Training prepares you for immediate action (if required) but knowledge of all features on your weapon will matter. When kicking in doors in Fallujah with a 9mm (not likely) the hammer would be back. Same scenario but in Camden, NJ the hammer is forward.
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gman and eden...you guys are making far too much of it... it matters not in a real life situation if I can get off a shot from concealment or in my hand in .004 or 4 seconds or whatever if I don't have the will or the ability to hit what I am aiming at..
In about every real life shooting situation that I have ever heard about there has been no advantage to shaving a couple of tenths of a second off your draw and fire time.... MANY situations ended up with people spraying 1 or two reloads at each other over long periods of time at close range and not hitting a thing.
To say that the "training" you get at some gunfight school is gonna be the answer is as wrong as saying that shooting at the range is. It is will and determination and familiarity with the firearm that get's the job done.
In most real life scenarios it isn't even the type of weapon but the ability to hit with it that determines the outcome... If all that mattered was short range accuracy and a few hundreths of a sec from the holster to the fall of the hammer..... we would all be carrying 1873 peacmakers.
I don't know how a person can be trained to ignore the fear and to aquire the front sight and stand his ground and fire at any range at a moving target... but that is what it takes.
I will admit that some of the training will help a person act in an instinctive manner rather than a panic mode...
Still... the reason a lot of bad guys win is because they have the will and don't panic. Like gunfighters of old... they take their time in a hurry.
To summarize... In the time it takes to tulips the threat.... you have all the time in the world... people tulips threat at different speeds.... while watching a guy go through a course with a semi auto or revolver and double tap multiple cardboard men or plates in fractions of a second is impressive... it represents only a very small portion of the fight.
If you are a good shot and don't panic and know your weapon and shoot a lot out at everything from running jacks at indeterminate distances and plinking... and you have the will and the ability to tulips threat a second or two faster than the average guy... you will do better than any person who spends 10k at a "self defense ranch" or competes in some sort of cardboard bad guy match.
I may be wrong about this but my limitied experiance around guns and people who lived with em on the wrong side of the law tells me this.
Oh...and grun... if you guys like the CZ 75 so much... How come you guys didn't care to take the withness .45 with us?
lazs
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100% agree. Individual Weapon Training is fundemental for instinctive behavior to both get your shot off accurately and ensuring that you don't shoot the wrong thing. Bottom line is to know the weapon so well that you don't get boggled with working it when the "panic" arises. Training cannot prepare you for the actuality of what is faced but it can give you the confidence which could give you an edge (a whole lot of "ifs" involved for sure).
Military traing is both individual and collective. Individual training involves personal skills (weapon or otherwise) while collective involves figting as a team. Both are critical to winning the war. My point was that it is not just how fast you can draw and shoot the weapon but rather a combination of that along with assessing the situation, knowing your allies, knowing your weapon(s), having confidence in your skills and the skills of those around you, and finally quite a bit of luck.
Bottom line to winning a gun fight is: Don't get shot critically (even a little shot is OK) before you (or someone on your side) can eliminate the threat.
(Oh, and if anyone wants to spend $10K on weapons/gunfighting.... I can surely accomidate...Step one: Pointy end of weapon to the bad guy(that one is free - the rest will cost ya!)) :)
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Reading through this thread, I'm wondering if you guys wouldn't mind introducing the phrase "Greentards" to distinguish us permanent resident alien types from the normal Eurabians.
At least until I get this change of nationality business worked out....
:D
- SEAGOON
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Don't worry Seagoon...your assimilation is almost complete.;)
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eden we probly agree more than not... I just feel that getting the gun drawn quickly is probly the least important part of a gunfight on the street in a civilian situation.. I am not a military man and don't know much about team tactics.
I also agree about getting shot "a little bit" it seems a lot of people function well enough for a while after being shot.. I have seen 3 people shot and all of em functioned quite well long enough to kill you if they needed to.. None were fatal.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
eden we probly agree more than not... I just feel that getting the gun drawn quickly is probly the least important part of a gunfight on the street in a civilian situation.. I am not a military man and don't know much about team tactics.
lazs
Most likely if needed in a military environment the gun will already be drawn. Having to draw quickly is more of a police issue . Americans have this thing against seeing people armed. Can't let the police appear to be armed even if it gets them killed so they have to hide the weapon and be able to draw super fast. Crazy, stupid anti-gun SOBs. If I had my way the Uniformed Police could carry MP-5s (or similar). Reliable weapons with better accuracy then most handguns (if an officer has to shoot a bad guy who is standing near me I hope he has the most accurate weapon in the world).
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Hi Eden,
Originally posted by Eden
Most likely if needed in a military environment the gun will already be drawn. Having to draw quickly is more of a police issue . Americans have this thing against seeing people armed. Can't let the police appear to be armed even if it gets them killed so they have to hide the weapon and be able to draw super fast. Crazy, stupid anti-gun SOBs. If I had my way the Uniformed Police could carry MP-5s (or similar). Reliable weapons with better accuracy then most handguns (if an officer has to shoot a bad guy who is standing near me I hope he has the most accurate weapon in the world).
PC anti-gunniness is indeed part of the explanation for why Americans don't like having obviously heavily armed police officers in plain sight, but there's more to it than that.
Historically, the British people were opposed to having a large standing army and their American descendents inherited that trait. They rightly viewed large bodies of heavily armed men who took their orders from the present political administration as counter-productive to the aims and ideals of a representative democracy - and with good reason. Historically, those standing armies had been used more often to suppress political and religious dissent within Britain, than to fight the enemies of the state.
Perhaps the most eggregious examples of this trend were provided roughly 100 years prior to the American revolution when Cromwell used his position as the head of the New Model Army to forcibly eject all the members of parliament who did not agree with his religious and political aims, and to ensure that only his cronies (the "rump" parliament) remained. Later when even they proved unruly, he essentially ruled directly in a way that not even the Jus Divinum tyrant Charles I whom he had replaced had tried to do. Later Charles II used his restored power to eject over 2000 ministers who refused to sign the act of uniformity and then to militarily suppress Scottish religious dissenters.
These lessons were learned and remembered by the Scots/Irish/English colonists who came to America, and they had a natural aversion to funding and maintaining well armed security forces who might just as easily be turned against them - this was one of the reasons the American military developed relatively slowly and was consistently underfunded and why America followed a "no big army in peacetime" policy for many years.
As a result of our history, we still see well-armed "peace officers" as a potential threat to our liberties, and given the choice between accepting increased risk or potentially losing our freedoms, we have generally taken the "I'll take the chance and defend myself, thank you" approach. That is obviously gradually changing, but there it is.
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Seagoon, historically British people disliked a professional army for the simple pragmatic reason that the individual soldiers were the 'scum of the earth' - as Wellington pointed out. I really doubt the individual citizen cared that much about politics, especially since merely surviving from one month to the next could often be so perilous.
The British Empire was a rehabilitation program for anti-social types.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Oh...and grun... if you guys like the CZ 75 so much... How come you guys didn't care to take the withness .45 with us?
lazs
Cuz I only shot one a few days after our visit.
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Hello Dowding,
Originally posted by Dowding
Seagoon, historically British people disliked a professional army for the simple pragmatic reason that the individual soldiers were the 'scum of the earth' - as Wellington pointed out. I really doubt the individual citizen cared that much about politics, especially since merely surviving from one month to the next could often be so perilous.
The British Empire was a rehabilitation program for anti-social types.
While they were indeed made up of the dregs of the social order, you'll find that opposition to standing armies on account of their potential to usurp power and create tyranny was widespread in England throughout the late 17th and early 18th century, particularly amongst the whigs whose political philosophy became the driving force behind the American rebellion.
One series of essays in particular written by John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon and published in various London Journals had a dramatic effect on both the British and American political scene. These were the famous "Cato's Letters" which were reprinted by Ben Franklin and other colonial presses and were present in over 30% of American libraries of any size. Several historians have described them as having a more profound influence on American political thought in the 18th century than any other treatise, and that includes the works of the French Philosophes.
Trenchard's prior essays against standing armies had included, An Argument Shewing that a Standing Army is Inconsistent with a Free Government, and Absolutely Destructive to the Constitution of the English Monarchy and he is undoubtedly the author of letters 94 and 95 which are devoted to this subject. One section in particular was frequently quoted by colonials, here is an excerpt:
Standing armies are standing curses in every country under the sun, where they are more powerful than the people.
It is certain, that all parts of Europe which are enslaved, have been enslaved by armies; and it is absolutely impossible, that any nation which keeps them amongst themselves can long preserve their liberties; nor can any nation perfectly lose their liberties who are without such guests: And yet, though all men see this, and at times confess it, yet all have joined in their turns, to bring this heavy evil upon themselves and their country.
I never yet met with one honest and reasonable man out of power who was not heartily against all standing armies, as threatening and pernicious, and the ready instruments of certain ruin: And I scarce ever met with a man in power, or even the meanest creature of power, who was not for defending and keeping them up: So much are the opinions of men guided by their circumstances! Men, when they are angry with one another, will come into any measures for revenge, without considering that the same power which destroys an enemy, may destroy themselves; and he to whom I lend my sword to kill my foe, may with it kill me.
Great empires cannot subsist without great armies, and liberty cannot subsist with them. As armies long kept up, and grown part of the government, will soon engross the whole government, and can never be disbanded; so liberty long lost, can never be recovered. Is not this an awful lesson to free states, to be vigilant against a dreadful condition, which has no remedy.
The above sentiment carried on well into the 19th century, and was a major factor in the feeling that America was better served by having a "well regulated militia" made up of citizen soldiers who could take up arms to defend the nation in times of crisis.
- SEAGOON
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seagoon and eden... I don't want to see our police heavily armed with weapons the general public can't have... if it costs a few cops lives so be it. seagoon hit it.. it is more than the perception tho.. Heavily armed police with machine guns and grenades are soldiers of a police state.
I do not agree that the mp5 is as accurate as a hundgun.. the potential for killing indescrimintely is enormous.. I have fired them and all my handguns are more accurate than a full auto mp5. I watch swat train with the gun all the time and they are all over the place even at 10 yards... I don't want police to open up in crowds with an mp5 or their surplus M16's. Not in cities anyway.
cops have their handguns and shotguns openly displayed in the U.S. and... to top it off they wear black ninja quasi military outfits... If they were worried about public perception they might tone down the uniform a bit eh?
The sidearms they wear are openly carried but somewhat difficult to draw not because of concealment issues but because of retention issues... the new mantra is to keep the bad guy from getting your gun... I am sure cops on here could verify that.
even cops won't benifiet much from drawing in a split second tho... the threat assesment is far more important... there is allways time to act or... no time at all (bad guy allready has gun in hand) you can't draw faster than a guy holding a gun with the will to kill can shoot for instance.
you can allways be more accurate tho... you can allways think faster (asses faster) and you can allways be the one with more will to win.
lazs
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Originally posted by deSelys
Bravo Gman.
This why I don't like DA/SA pistols (exception being the CZ 75 as it can be carried chambered, cocked and locked), it requires a lot of extra training to break in the pull force difference between 1st and 2nd shot.
I don't like DAO neither at it trades off a lot of accuracy.
I think that, for police forces, systems like the Glock are the best as they reduce the amount of necessary training for a safe gun handling. Even if some guns are cheaper/more durable, the costs of extra training could easily be higher and can't be overlooked.
About the 1911, isn't it dangerous to carry it chambered with hammer down? Is the link between hammer and firing pin interrupted or can a blow on the hammer cause an accidental dsicharge?
How come Glock's cause more feet being shot while holstering than other guns in the past? It's up to the individual to keep his finger off of the trigger until the "said gun" is holstered, or unholstered.
So a Glock is "safer" than my USP 45 with the "true safety" set to safe? Please, spare me the "great Glock" lecture. I enjoy firing them, but they are the LAST thing that should be mentioned in gun safety. ANY Weapon should not encourage LESS training, but MORE TRAINING. As soon as you start "skimping" gun safety and training, you are opening yourself for accidents.
Anyone still have the DEA footage of the idiot, shooting his foot in class with a Glock 19? Funnier yet, it wasn't even holstered, and he wasn't trained enough to distinguish the sound of a round being chambered. On top of the fact, that the other idiot that handed him the gun, couldn't tell the difference didn't notice the full mag. Speaking of full mags, neither one realized the weight difference between an empty or full pistol.
BTW, the 1911 and USP can be safely carried C'd n L'd. The USP uses a modified Browning action. I just keep my finger off of the trigger until I'm ready to shoot, no matter the weapon.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Eden
I agree... bottom line is don't use a handgun to fight a war. A handgun is what you use to fight your way to a rife. Home defense is another issue all together. The M-9 Beretta de-***** the hammer (And rotates the firing pin) when the safety is applied so the hammer would be forward and the safety on when stored at home. The trigger pull on the M-9 is heavy in DA and don't forget range shooting (for the military) is mostly about the score. There are more realistic reaction courses and gunfighting schools then that (the Army has some great ones) and those are the ones that really pay off. Bottom line is in a Battle...have a rifle esppecially when all you have is 9mm Ball ammo. There are some who argue the perks of Handguns but in a war I'll disagree (now at home I have the 44magnum for defense...diferent scenario).
The Beretta and 9mm are both pieces of ****. I carried the POS Beretta .40 Cougar, and then a 96. Both stovepiped, and I reverted back to the .38 Special J-Frame S&W. I'll take reliabilty anyday. IMO, with Beretta's, you're better off throwing them at your enemy.
Karaya
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MB I don't disagree with you but I can't see a flaw in the glock concept in anything you've said:
- the mantra "finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot" applies to EVERY gun
- not a single gun is idiot proof. Not my fault if your DEA instructors are morons.
That being said, a glock chambered (and hence half-cocked) is safer than any 1911 chambered but with safety off. When a glock armed cop is shot at, there is NO risk that he'll forget to flip the safety off before shooting or that he'll forget to flip it back on before holstering
I also agree that training is adamant, but in the real world you should know that when costs have to be reduced, training is a prime target. It shouldn't be, it's sad, you and I are fully against it, but we have to live with it. It's probably wiser to pick up a firearm requiring less training to operate safely than something maybe a bit better but more error prone.
Glocks aren't perfect but they have some very interesting characteristics for law enforcement.
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Originally posted by deSelys
MB I don't disagree with you but I can't see a flaw in the glock concept in anything you've said:
- the mantra "finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot" applies to EVERY gun
- not a single gun is idiot proof. Not my fault if your DEA instructors are morons.
That being said, a glock chambered (and hence half-cocked) is safer than any 1911 chambered but with safety off. When a glock armed cop is shot at, there is NO risk that he'll forget to flip the safety off before shooting or that he'll forget to flip it back on before holstering
I also agree that training is adamant, but in the real world you should know that when costs have to be reduced, training is a prime target. It shouldn't be, it's sad, you and I are fully against it, but we have to live with it. It's probably wiser to pick up a firearm requiring less training to operate safely than something maybe a bit better but more error prone.
Glocks aren't perfect but they have some very interesting characteristics for law enforcement.
I ain't coming down on you, don't take it that way. I understand the "finger off the trigger" applies to every gun. Problem is, Glocks cause this problem more than any others. Especially, quick draws, etc.
HK's safety is unlike the Sig or Beretta's, btw. You don't have to break your grip to reach it, you flick it up to engage the safety, or flick down to fire.
Karaya