Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: jehu on August 19, 2000, 11:21:00 PM
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Would like to know your thoughts.
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jehu
Airwolves
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Freedom, the ability to choose the path that I want my life to take and work to achieve that goal. The ability to choose where I want to live and work to make it happen. The ability to take risks in life and when failed then to pick MYSELF back up and try again. The ability to work where and when I want, doing what I like. Not having to pay income taxes. yeah right!
Basicly the ability to do what every I want with my life, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody or harm anybody elses ability to do the same (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think we have a skewed form of it here in America, but it's still freedom none the less.
Ofcourse freedom is not free, and you have to work hard to realy be free. Kind of a funny trade off I guess. Work/slave real hard for 1/2 your life so you can be free the 1/2 your life (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, (Kris Kristoffeson - "Me & Bobby Mgee") - Spelling??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TTFN
snafu
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These are some of my thoughts on the subject...
SWEET LAND OF LIBERTY
2 Cor 3:17
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (NKJ)
2 Cor 3:17(RSV)
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
On July 4, 1776, a steamy day in the city of Philadelphia, fifty-six very courageous men signed one of the most remarkable documents in all of human history: The Declaration of Independence!
This was not a light thing! These men were risking their lives to hold such a meeting. Indeed many of them did pay with their lives. In fact five of them were captured by the British and tortured before they were killed. Twelve had their homes sacked, looted, occupied by the enemy, or burned. Nine of the fifty-six died in the war, from it’s hardships, or from it’s bullets.
Something else you may not know, these men were not poor men, or “wild-eyed” pirates. They were men of means; rich men, prosperous men, wealthy land owners. They were substantially secure in their prosperity, and respected in their communities.
But they considered liberty much more important than the security they enjoyed, and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor!
They fulfilled their pledge! They paid the price! And freedom was won!
(The information above was found in a book called “THE REBIRTH OF AMERICA” published by, The Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation.)
[ I want to take time this 4th of July to thank God and remember what we have all been blessed with here in this great nation…]
I. WHAT IS TRUE FREEDOM?
A. Many think freedom is being able to do whatever you want. Is it?
FREEDOM: The ability of a person or group to be and do what they want instead of being controlled by another. It is popular today to believe that the individual is or should be in full control of him or her self. Such an understanding is alien to the Bible, which never depicts the individual as having total command or freedom over self.
Freedom = absence of unjust restraint.
I believe freedom is one of the most misunderstood words of our generation!
“My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people of earth enjoy!”
Thomas Jefferson
Someone has said, “To be born free is a privilege. To die free is an awesome responsibility.”
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. (NKJ)
Gal 5:13-14
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (NKJ)
B. The truth of the matter is no one is free unto himself.
Matt 6:24
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. (NKJ)
John 8:34
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. (NKJ)
Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (NKJ)
1. So then, it is true that all men are indeed slaves.
a. Even if one professes Jesus Christ –
1 Cor 7:22
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. (NKJ)
You have a master! The question is, who is it???
2. As slaves of sin, man is under the tyrant of sin to do it’s bidding. Thus man does things that he knows will destroy him. But he can not stop because sin is stronger than he.
C. TRUE FREEDOM is the ability to choose to do right, live righteous!
1. Jesus Christ frees man from the “strong man.”
a. Jesus, after casting out demons made some interesting remarks in –
Matt 12:28-29
28 "…if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (NKJ)
2. True freedom must manifest in the inner man before it can ever manifest in society!
Note: This the Law could never accomplish!
I believe this is the spirit of the declaration of independence, that men be free to serve God freely, and thus have a most blessed society, a most blessed Nation under God!
John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 "And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. (NKJ)
“Our Laws and our institution must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian… This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation… we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”
SUPREME COURT DECISION, 1892
CHURCH OF THE HOLY TRINITY V. UNITED STATES
Ps 9:17
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. (NKJ)
Ps 33:12
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance. (NKJ)
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jehu
Airwolves
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Freedom is a state of choiceless awareness.
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Freedom is a road seldom travelled by the multitudes.
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Freedom is shedding of the self. Without the 'self' there is no want, no worry, no suffering. An 'awakened' person knows only awareness, and responds instantaneously to any situation in the right manner - a manner full of compassion. To be selfless is to know all.
"We humans have existed in our present form for about a hundred thousand years. I believe that if during this time the human mind had been primarily controlled by anger and hatred, our overall population would have decreased. But today, despite all our wars, we find that the human population is greater than ever. This clearly indicates to me that love and compassion predominate in the world. And this is why unpleasant events are 'news'; compassionate activities are so much a part of daily life that they are taken for granted and, therefore, largely ignored."
-Dalai Lama
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"This clearly indicates to me that love and compassion predominate in the world"
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A friend of mine conducted a survey one time and asked the question, “How would you describe society?” 99% of the people asked responded that society was basically bad. I.e. full of greed, hate, crime, anger, etc. However later in the interview, he would ask, “How would you describe yourself?” All of them said in essence they were basically good. There is a great contradiction here. When looking at others we only seek to make ourselves look better. Oh not out loud but we do. The only way you would do different is if you have been taught to do so. It is not a natural human tendency. Generally people who do this have some religious based convictions they follow. To try and see good in other has to be practiced. If this were not so there would be no such thing as gossip. Gossip is the hidden assignation of a persons character.
No, man, society, is basically bad. Sinful. We can only do or be good by the grace of God. And that has to be received. God will not force this upon us. Sadly it is rejected far more than it is received.
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jehu
Airwolves
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Originally posted by jehu:
No, man, society, is basically bad. Sinful. We can only do or be good by the grace of God. And that has to be received. God will not force this upon us. Sadly it is rejected far more than it is received.
Very well, Jehu. Goodbye (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Frank Zappa:
"Free is when you don't have to do nothing or pay for nothing!"
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Jus' cause yer paranoid don't mean I ain't out ta getcha.
GronK
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no underwear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Let me first state that these are my personal opinions about freedom and certain ideologies, and that any acid remarks are directed at the latter and not persons adhering to them. They might be wrong and to some they certainly are.
Society and humans basically bad.
This is the essence of why I think some of the more popular cults have gotten it all wrong.
"Let's celebrate mediocricy! Let's build temples for our flaws! Let's remove our responsibility and yes, let us wallow in our failures! We're miserable creatures and soon we will all die and then the Sky Daddy will come spank us/reward us depending on what mood he's in".
Seriously, this life denying roadkill has gotta stop somewhere, but I wonder if some doomsday cults, however large they might be, are capable of this when their basic tenet is that we all suck, and we're all being punished because someone else sucked and screwed up.
Human society, as a whole, is a quite robust thing that has arisen through countless years of refinements, advancements and setbacks. However we humans came to be, be it a product of primordial soup that has undergone some serious evolution or the result of an odd deity that first creates one man outta nothing, then removes one of his ribs to create something for him to play around and breed with, we are unique creaturs.
Our capacity to hate and destroy is only rivalled by our capacity to love and create. A good friend of mine said to me while I was going through a period of clinical depression: "You never get what you deserve. You get what you expect", i.e that it is largely the mindset that shapes the result, and it's what one has one is to focus. Improvement, not beratement. Encouragment, not self pity. Belief in self, not denial of self.
I am free from sins, and in my hand I have a large rock. I'm ready to do damage, and I'm ready to do good.
Man, to me, is not more inherently evil and flawed than a coala bear or a wolf; a toad, nurse shark and parrot are the same as man in this regard. Man is unique in the animal kingdom; just as any other species is. Our intelligence sets us apart from other species, much like the speed of a cheetah sets it apart from others. We excel at intelligence and with that intelligence comes capability at a scale the world probably hasn't witnessed before.
Capability, freedom and responsibility are interlinked to such a degree that it is impossible to separate them Without the capability to grasp the latter two concepts, they are not. Freedom is impossible without responsibility, and a responsibility is a direct logical product of freedom. My reasoning behind this rests on Kant's Categorical Imperative. Flawed as it might be, it has its uses and places where it is applicable, at least to my mind.
I differentiate between the absolute and the actual; I have yet to see something exist absolutely when we talk concepts like this. What is freedom? Exemption from the power and control of another? I have that, with some limitations; I *am* dependent of others. There's too many of us for us to be able to live as hermits in cottages. Exemption from necessity? In this regard, I am not free. I must eat, I must dispose of my waste products. I must live and I must die.
Is freedom a mind thing, or a physical matter? Who is more free; the enslaved man who consider himself free, or the man born free who consider himself enslaved? It is conceivable that to most it is a combination of both.
Freedom to me can be as simple as doing my thing after doing or while doing what I have to, or as complicated as an absolute abstract ideal firmly placed on a high mental conscious level. Quite frankly, I dunno. Some days I think I feel the essence and aliveness of freedom; others I am incapable of producing one thought or emotion about freedom. Sort of like a fragrance long forgotten; when you smell it, you remember it.
It's a complex matter which is about doing whatever you want as long as it does not hurt others. Of course, there's great discussions about just when you hurt others and this is the basic source of the complexity. In a group as big as the human race and with the capabilities and characteristics of the same, it is natural for some kind of hierarchy to develop and for there to be made rules; compromises made where slices of freedom are being exchanged for security. A realistic pragmatist can appreciate it; for the idealist, the world is more black and white. What drives the world I would argue is the ureasonable realistic idealistic pragmatist, but that's another story.
With this background, I must say that I personally am actually free, but in the absolute sense, I am completely imprisoned, opressed and laid in chains.
Being a humanist, I have great hopes for humanity. I think most are pretty ok people with great potential for good and bad, and we can only get the former with education and responsibility. We've proven ourselves to be capable of varying degrees of objectivity and some have realized that humans are all the same, and what sets us apart is the cultural conditioning we're subjected to. Post modernists accuse me of being a result of the Western philosophy paradigm, which I readily admit is true.
Naturally, freedom includes the freedom to think we're wicked, sinful creatures who are failures yet somehow the cream of the crop of a deity's creation but to me, this fatalistic pessimistic defeatist attitude is a source of more griveance rather an attempt at improvement.
Dinner time soon. I wonder what's for breakfast? After that, I'll probably do some good things by myself. Or some bad things, haven't decided yet. All by my own power. To me, it is so simple yet so mindboggingly complex. Fascinating, really. Think I'll just do stuff and see what happens.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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True freedom ?
You had to ask this question from somebody who has been in jail because his religious, political or sexual persuasion or skin color.
My opinion is that maybe we don't know what true freedom is before we lost it.
Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
"Let's celebrate mediocricy! Let's build temples for our flaws! Let's remove our responsibility and yes, let us wallow in our failures! We're miserable creatures and soon we will all die and then the Sky Daddy will come spank us/reward us depending on what mood he's in".
[/B]
Here is where so many miss it. By “Sky Daddy” are you referring to God? If so, you are missing it. He already satisfied the wages for your sin. His own son died in your place. The wages of sin, or the cost for sin, is death. His son never sinned yet died anyway. Why? For you. So when you say the “skydaddy” will give you a thumbs up or down depending what mood he’s in, you don’t get it. All you have to do is accept that gift. In your heart. To do this of course you would have to believe. And be grateful. However, if you deny that gift, then you will have to pay for your own sins. Unfortunately, that will take eternity because unlike Christ, the rest of us have sinned.
And as far as my comments that man is basically bad, I didn’t say he can’t do good. Oh contraire! People are capable of most amazing acts of selfless sacrifice for others. Christians and non Christians alike. The question is why. Because they have been taught a certain set of values.
Example: You don’t have to teach children how to lie. They do automatically. But you DO have to teach them manners etc.
Also, I would point out that people are precious to God. He loves you the same as me. No more, no less. What may make us different, is one accepts that love, while the other rejects it.
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jehu
Airwolves
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Freedom is thinking that some peoples religios beliefs are silly and not being killed for it.
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Right on Pongo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Freedom with religion, and freedom from religion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Won't discuss religion more than I already have, which was in relation to freedom (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Jehu is right.
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From Jehu :
Example: You don’t have to teach children how to lie. They do automatically. But you DO have to teach them manners etc.
Absolutely wrong !!!!
In fact YOU teach the childrens to lie, they are clever than you think, they understand when you lie, and why.
When they ask a question you cant afford, your answer is a lie.
And when you threat a punishment for an error you are not capable to make them understand, they know: the best defence you give them is to lie.
You teach them to hate !!!
You teach them to steal !!!
You teach them to close the mind to other ideas than yours !!!
You teach them to adore the "money" deity !!!
You teach them to be slave !!!
You destroy the best gift your God (or somethink else, or nothing at all) has gived them: the innocence.
"love the others the same manner you love yourself"
This has been one of the gratest declarations of freedom ever said.
It is sad, the followers of that Man are guilty of the worst intollerant attitude, even today.
That Man said "the good will gain the kingdom of skyes" not the Christian nor the believer, but "The Good".
You can be christian, mussulmane, hebrew, buddist, taoist, ateos, in any case, if you love other, be helpful, understand the other, and act respecting the other's freedom the same manner you wish they respect your's, you are good.
I love you Jehu (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I love you all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
p.s.
Except the ugly americans (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
p.p.s.
"Gaudio maximo, habemus papam, StSanta pontifex maximus!!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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"Gaudio maximo, habemus papam, StSanta pontifex maximus!!"
It sure looks cool, but do I want it on my CV?
What does it mean? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Btw, funked, *I* am right. If you haven't realized it, it is because you're one of the plebeian masses who cannot see and appreciate my full glory.
StSantaism, hm now there's an idea...
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Santageddon (http://www.santageddon.com)
Finnish game but flash animation looks like StSanta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 08-22-2000).]
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sorry i cant understand finnish language (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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ROFL!
You guys are TOO kind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I would say true freedom is never, ever needing a weapon.
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easymo, that was a fine statement (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
My personal view of true freedom is along the lines of following:
To be able to do as one likes, though with never interfering any other human being and his/hers ability to do just the same.
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SageFIN
"The wolves are gathering, the stars are shifting...
come, join us in the hunt!"
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True freedom comes only from within, it cannot come from without or from any external source. A man can be litterally enslaved with chains yet be totally free where it counts, inside.
We all trade our personal freedom every day for little things. Paychecks, freinds, family, and culture. Personal freedom ends up takeing the back seat to civilization and society if we choose to live within it. Unless we are willing to give these up, to be the lone wolf and walk our own path uncareing what anyone else in the world thinks.
As a culture we are constantly forced to give up freedoms so that we may fit in. As an example, I am not free to drive 100 mph in a residential area without the risk of arrest and consequences. I have given up the personal freedom of speeding in order to live with others. Freedom also comes with a hefty price. Responsibility for our actions, respect for others, consideration for all those that our freedom may effect.
The more advanced the society, the more personal freedom is lost. Yet this is not a bad thing. As we give up personal freedom we gain freedom as a society.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose if you choose to look at it that way.
It is also just another word for everything to be gained.
"The needs of the many must outweight the needs of the few, or one"
Or do they?
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"The more advanced the society, the more personal freedom is lost."
Funny definition of "advanced" you have. I would use the term "decayed" in that sentence. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Where's that dictionary when ya need it?
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Right here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
Freedom \Free"dom\ (fr[=e]"d[u^]m), n. [AS. fre['o]d[=o]m;
fre['o]free + -dom. See Free, and -dom.]
1. The state of being free; exemption from the power and control of another; liberty; independence.
Made captive, yet deserving freedom more. --Milton.
2. Privileges; franchises; immunities.
Your charter and your caty's freedom. --Shak.
3. Exemption from necessity, in choise and action; as, the freedom of the will.
4. Ease; facility; as, he speaks or acts with freedom.
5. Frankness; openness; unreservedness.
I emboldened spake and freedom used. --Milton.
6. Improper familiarity; violation of the rules of decorum; license.
7. Generosity; liberality. [Obs.] --Chaucer.
Freedom fine, a sum paid on entry to incorporations of trades.
Freedom of the city, the possession of the rights and privileges of a freeman of the city; formerly often, and now occasionally, conferred on one not a resident, as a mark of honorary distinction for public services.
Syn: See Liberty.
From WordNet (r) 1.6 :
freedom
n 1: the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints
2: immunity from an obligation or duty [syn: exemption]
Wonder if this helps though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime