Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: SkyChimp on November 27, 2005, 06:40:13 PM
-
TM Cougar H.O.T.A.S or CH H.O.T.A.S?
*Fighterstick usb*
*Pro throttle*
This is a few months from now =)
-
CH is the way................
Tmaster if a nice piece that wasnt finished. If you have $300 over the price of the HOTAS then you can mod it to a very 2 workable state.
-
You can live without any support whatsoever? You don't mind to pay for replacements during your warranty ('cause the manufacturer doesn't reply)? You don't expect your gear to work like a charm right out of the box (and don't mind to fix a switch or two yourself)? You plan on modding your gear to work smooth as silk with some fancy gimbals (to work around the center-slop) such as force-sensors or Hall-sensors instead of the stock potentiometers? You've got the money to spend on modding and don't mind to do so (investing about twice as much as your stock gear costs)? You don't plan to go 64-bit any time soon (and thus don't worry about missing drivers)?
Then Guillemot's HOTAS Cougar definitively is the gear for you (TM died back in '98, you know)!
If however you should expect your gear to work like a charm and smooth as silk right out of the box, with nothing in need of do-it-yourself repairs or replacement, and if you should think that you as a customer have got a right for a working support and customer-care, and if you should want to use your new gear no matter which OS you ever might upgrade to, then you might want to take a closer look at CH Products' products.
Just my 2cts as an ex-TM-user (since '94, mind) who just recently migrated to CH.
-
I herd ch is very very very very very very very lose...
I want something that is a little harder to push.. =)
-
Also my hands aren't big!!
I'd also wouldn't mind working on it but id like to be able to play for 5 months or so before i need to do work =)
-
Well, yes, the Fighterstick is much softer than the HOTAS Cougar, that's true. However, the HOTAS Cougar's stock springs are that stiff and hard that it's absolutely impossible to e.g. circle it around in a clear circle. The Fighterstick's springs are soft enough to allow for an exact fine-control and hard enough to have a clear feeling of the axes.
As for the size of the handle, the Fighterstick and the HOTAS Cougar are of the same size. Both handles are designed to be used like this: usually, your hand will rest on the plate at the base of the stick, and all controls except the upper POV-hat and thumb-button are easy to reach; if you want to use the POV-coolie or the thumb-button, then you change from this "low grip" to the "high grip" and raise your hand to control said hat or button with your thumb. That's by design, BTW, and nothing to worry about WRT "small hands".
You can use the HOTAS Cougar out-of-the-box but you'll have to adjust the misaligned speedbrake-switch by rotating it into the proper orientation, else it will break rather sooner than later. You might get a stick with a lot of initial center-play, or you might be lucky and get one without too much of it. But the real pain is the stck springs of the gimbals (see above).
-
Originally posted by DonULFonso
Well, yes, the Fighterstick is much softer than the HOTAS Cougar, that's true. However, the HOTAS Cougar's stock springs are that stiff and hard that it's absolutely impossible to e.g. circle it around in a clear circle. The Fighterstick's springs are soft enough to allow for an exact fine-control and hard enough to have a clear feeling of the axes.
As for the size of the handle, the Fighterstick and the HOTAS Cougar are of the same size. Both handles are designed to be used like this: usually, your hand will rest on the plate at the base of the stick, and all controls except the upper POV-hat and thumb-button are easy to reach; if you want to use the POV-coolie or the thumb-button, then you change from this "low grip" to the "high grip" and raise your hand to control said hat or button with your thumb. That's by design, BTW, and nothing to worry about WRT "small hands".
You can use the HOTAS Cougar out-of-the-box but you'll have to adjust the misaligned speedbrake-switch by rotating it into the proper orientation, else it will break rather sooner than later. You might get a stick with a lot of initial center-play, or you might be lucky and get one without too much of it. But the real pain is the stck springs of the gimbals (see above).
Thanks!!!
-
And besides your limp wristed... so the CH will give you all the pushback you can handle.
:)
Balsy
-
Originally posted by SkyChimp
Also my hands aren't big!!
I'd also wouldn't mind working on it but id like to be able to play for 5 months or so before i need to do work =)
I use the upper hat on the fighterstick for autopilot functions and the 8-way on the throttle for views.
I don't want to EVER work on mine.:D Actually, I did change out a pot in the stick once. I robbed one from the stick's throttle but they are only a couple dollars to buy and take 15 minutes to change.
-
You got alot of *Pro* CH users to answer this thread ;)
We've discussed it some already online.
Many people say "CH support rules". Well, it just ain't so, atleast not for me. After I recieved the Pro Pedals (bout 5 months ago now) they spiked right out of the box. Mailed CH support and they told me to "Buy new pots" and they were friendly enough to send me a link where I could buy new pots to the new pedals, geee wiz thanks.
They don't spike all that much at the moment so I can fly with them but that is not the issue, they should've sent me a new pot for free no questions asked more or less.
The only other experience I have with CH was my first stick, CH Flightstick which started spiking heavily after a year or so. Maybe I've just had the bad luck of getting the bad apples.
I think CH may be right for you anyway, like I said before, they are WAY too lose for me, felt really bad although I know they make great stuff.
I love my Cougar, it is still unmodded and it won't be modded for many many months to come. Would I like to exchange the gimbals in the future? Yes. Because of too much resistance? No but because I want a solid equal resistance no matter where I move the stick.
As it is now up, down, left and right (so 0, 90, 180 and 270 degree angles of the stick) give me 50% resistance. If I move it outside of this, say up and left the gimbals "work together" so to speak and give me 100% resistance.
Anoying? Nha, not really, only in the beginning, I don't even notice it when flying anymore, mostly because my stick pretty much never is straight up/down/left/right. It is always in some other possition.
-
My pedals brake axis went AWOL after 1.5 years and RC Simulations (http://www.rcsimulations.com/switch.htm) sent me a new set Gratis BEFORE I even sent the other set back!
CH have tightened their guarantee periods since then, but still! I was well impressed.
I had a Cougar, but everything that needs to be said has been said. Needless to say I don't have it any more.
-
Damn.. Thanks all:D
Still don't know but i'll wait.!! I not gunna get um for awhile tho just asking =)
-
Hmmm........
CH has always treated me extremely well.
Had a problem with the view hat on the throttle and they fixed it.
Took 3 times mind you. 2nd try I didn't put the reason for sending it in and somehting else got changed.
3rd time it got fixed and has been working great ever since.
Total cost was right at $12.00 but it was out of warrenty.
Sold on CH stuff myself.
-
I use the COUGAR. I don't like it for AH . But for Falcon 4.0 I wouldn't have anything else. Flying the F16 you don't need so much stick or rudder.
-
SkyChimp ...
My old stick looks like hell, (not the spare stick) duck tape around the base, and the palm rest has been modified to fit small hands .. The pot are excellent and has been maintained and have been replaced when needed ... its ugly, but works very well.
I'll have to send you my setup files (the sick is already program) for AH. Everyone has their own way of programing the FLCS-16 and TQS ... but I really like my setup.
s r i n t
:cool:
-
You would think such a heavily made piece of gear would last well. You would be mistaken.
Go with CH.
-
I don't bother with either of those hunks of garbage, I still use what the Pro's use. Why do ya think I'm so good ?
(http://www.consolpassion.org/JOYSTICK%20ATARI.jpg)
-
OK...
Do this, go with CH I'd say, alternativly an X52 (way less money but lots of people like it).
I am starting to have problems with my Cougar, not sure if it was like this from the beginning or if it has gotten like this lately. Nose bounces become an every increasing problem and the Fw 190's are even harder to fly (and specially aim) due to it.
It feels as if the stick is over sensitive near the center (for maybe the first 20% or so) which makes it near impossible to aim :(
Not sure how to fix this, tried raising deadzone but only helps a little...
-
I have had problems with my COUGAR ever since the new AH came out. It works fine in Falcon 4.0. I have heard the same from other COUGAR owners.
-
Rgr that Seadog, mine works fine in IL2 aswell but for AH it really isn't good :(
-
Originally posted by Wilbus
It feels as if the stick is over sensitive near the center (for maybe the first 20% or so) which makes it near impossible to aim :(
Not sure how to fix this, tried raising deadzone but only helps a little...
Did you try to simply reduce the axes' response-CURVEs instead of using the default linear one?
The default linear response-CURVE gives you the same sensitivity all along an axis' travel, while a decreased CURVE-setting results in a lower sensitivity near the center (and a normal sensitivity half way up/down respectively left/right, and a higher sensitivity towards te extremes).
If you feel like it, feel free to copy and paste the following lines into a blank .tmJ file, download it and switch your Cougar into programmed mode; then start your sim and use HAT1 to decrease the JOYSTICK's response-CURVE (more and more clockwise, with up to reset it to the default linear CURVE):
BTN H1U CURVE (JOYSTICK, 1)
BTN H1R CURVE (JOYSTICK, -2)
BTN H1D CURVE (JOYSTICK, -4)
BTN H1L CURVE (JOYSTICK, -6)
"-2" is the setting I usually use, "-6" might be a bit extreme; check out whether there's some setting you like, and if need be, adjust the values around it to fine-tune it, like let's say you found "-4" to seem better than the dafault "1", then try:
BTN H1U CURVE (JOYSTICK, 1)
BTN H1R CURVE (JOYSTICK, -3)
BTN H1D CURVE (JOYSTICK, -4)
BTN H1L CURVE (JOYSTICK, -5)
Hope this helps.
-
Rgr Ulf, been there done that. Nothing really helps at the moments it seems like.
I've mixed around with the responsive curve setting before aswell, all testing all the way from -1 to -10 or so but can't find anything I am happy with :(
-
Hm, but in other sims your kitten's purring OK?
Are you sure it's not 'just' the f$%&ing stock springs being too stiff to allow any fine-control whatsoever especially around the center? Or is your stick modded? (But even a modded Cougar still requires (much) more force than a stock CH/Saitek/whatever.)
-
I have a friend who is interested in getting into the combat flight sim stuff and he just bought the CH stuff. It isn't too bad, but the programming is vastly worse and it comes with no manuals. I wouldn't trade my Cougar for it, although I do have nose bounce. I'd like to mod my Cougar, but I've never had the spare cash to do so.
-
It could be the stock springs that are too stiff, not sure, might be. It is not modded although I would like to do it in the future.
Looking in the cougar viewer it looks like (could be an illusion) that it moves in different speeds (Y axis) depending on where it is, specially the first 20% or so...
Works fine in IL2, no nose bounce there but Il2 and AH are modelled differently.
-
@ Karnak:
The Control Manager of course has an online-help, but you're right: there are no printed manuals - since the CHs can be bought separate and combined any way you like, providing a paper manual would increase the price, unfortunately.
On the boards of The CH-Hangar (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/) you can find a "Dummie's Guide" and a pdf of the online-help (somewhere... feel free to contact me if you shouldn't be able to find it).
As for the CHs being hard to map and/or hard to program... you must be joking!
For an absolute beginner, CH's GUI with simple drop-down menus definitively is much easier to use than TM's text-based mapping with its DOS-like slash-codes.
For a normal user a GUI still is easier to use than a text-based system.
For an experienced user who actually is interested in really programming his controllers (as opposed to simply mapping it), Bob Church's current state of CH's scripting with its plain text statements and functions definitively is much easier to get into than Bob Church's original (in the meantime ancient, however) logical programming with its raw and rough bit-wise digital logic!
Yes, that's right: it's the same man's work we're talking about: it was Bob Church who introduced true programmability (on a rather basic and raw level, but powerful anyway) to the TMs, and it was (and still is, mind) BOb Church who introduced true programmabilty (on a really sophisticated level) to the CHs. The programmability of today's HOTAS Cougar is based on what he had developed for TM's F-22 Pro almost a decade ago, and Guillemot just slightly enhanced and improved it for the HOTAS Cougar - but they did not develop it any further. But Bob Church developed (and still is developing) CH's Control Manager with its scripting further. Draw your own conclusions...
@ Wilbus:
At least it's no hardware problem - no spiking pot, I mean, for the stock springs could be considered a hardware problem.
One thing to keep in mind while modifying your controllers' analogue settings: if you do so, do it either only via the game's control-options, or only via the stick's software - if you set up a custom response via both ways, i.e. set a custom curve in the CCP or the .tmJ and modify the settings in the game's control-options, then you apply the modified settings on an already modified axis! No way to predict the results of such a mess...
-
Rgr on the settings Ulf, what I wounder is this.
AH normal settings give an increasing curve along the Y axis. Should I instead make this Curve to a steady diagonal line?
I think that should be better if I modify it through the Cougar controll panel with a -4 in sensitivty?
Hard to explain what I mean... do you understand?
-
Like I said: EITHER via the game's means, OR via the stick's means - never BOTH.
In other words, you'll have to find out for yourself (and on your own ;) ) whether you can find a response to suit your taste via the game's means, or whether the stick's means will lead you to a satisfying solution.
If you should fiddle around with the game's means, then the stick's curve must me linear, and vice versa.
Using the game's means might be easier 'cause you can switch to and fro without leaving the game; using the stick's means has the advantage that once you've found a curve to your liking, you can save the according setting to a file and load it with your stick-setup.
Sorry that I can't be of much help here.
-
Cougar= plug in, works for a bit, gets wonky, alot of foul language, its collects dust in the corner while Slash buys a X-52
CH= plug in and no worries ( according to many who told me to get CH in the first place)
Anyone want to buy a Cougar with some CH Pro peddals? Make an offer.
-
How do you like the X52 slash? Just out of curiosity...
-
Tho' I wasn't asked ;) allow me to remark that I, too, have tried it out when it came out. Since I didn't buy it, just test it, I can't say anything about its reliability, but I can comment on its ergonomics, its "feel": I didn't like it, not at all. It somehow feels... "wrong", you know.
TM's replicas like the current HOTAS Cougar as well as its predecessors were modelled after the "real deal", and to develop this design had cost the USAF quite some time and money. Small wonder (if at all) that TM's replicas are unequalled in terms of ergonomics, still: you just let your hands fall on the controllers, and it feels as if they were a natural part of your body: every button and switch and axis is exactly where it needs to be, the controllers have no edges but everything's round and ergonomical and feels just great.
CH's controllers feel good, too, but not as good, tho': they don't have edges, either, but they're just not as naturally rounded as the "real deal"s replicas - you always know you're holding controllers in your hands. But every button and axis is where it needs to be, too.
Both sticks are just of the right size - and if you hear someone complain about them being "too big", then the one complaining simply missed the fact that the real deal's meant to be used like this: to access all controls except the upper coolie and button, you use the "low grip" with your hand resting on the base-plate of the stick; to use the upper coolie and button, you raise your hand into the "high grip". That's no design-flaw but done on purpose!
The Saiteks, however, are much smaller than the TMs and CHs - but this results in their buttons and switches and axes appearing to be in the "wrong" places, like that rudder-switch or the rotaries. Everything's somewhat "squeezed" together to allow for a smaller size - but this 'philosophy' simply completely misses the point of the professional HOTAS-design with its idea of a "high grip" and a "low grip". I for one don't like it a bit.
Like I said, that's just my personal opinion on its design WRT ergonomics - but to me for one, that's an important consideration.
I didn't like the feeling of it (that's true for the current model's predecessors just as well), I didn't like its centering-system, I didn't like the whole feeling of its controls - and since it doesn't feature any true programmability (just the usual mappability), either, it didn't find its way into my home.
-
Originally posted by Wilbus
How do you like the X52 slash? Just out of curiosity...
Being the picky guy I am, it still doesnt have the exact feel Im looking for. But it really is a nice set up and I dont think you can beat it for the money. I wish I had went ahead and bought CH stuff like I planned, but I really wanted to know if a twist rudder set up with the HOTAS was going to be like. Ive had it over a year now and Im in no big hurry to get rid of it. So in a long winded rambling answer, I like it:aok ( Ive been up for over 36 hours and Im a bit loopy:O )