Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKFokerFoder+ on November 28, 2005, 09:54:19 PM
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I understand that in Air Warrior there was a hit bubble in front of your plane that prevented damage from a head on attack.
It seems that every time I get into a 1 on 1 with a bogey, the goal seems to be that you need to be the first one to get a HO guns solution with the NEME. If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles. If you aren’t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
The only solution now seems to be get a cannon plane, get your nose around first and HO before you are HO’d.
I think that a frontal hit shield bubble may help.
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avoid HO by starting a lead turn on them.
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If gunnery was made more challenging HO shots would be alot more tough and there for less common, as it is AH has the easiest gunnery i have seen. I have played in sims with more challenging gunnery models and HO shots are much less common and dont lead to gripes on the fourms, not so many crazy snap shots like you can pull here, I do moves here that would work in other sims to avoid getting hit on the merge with much less succes here. The HO bubble would just be coveing up the issue imho.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
It seems that every time I get into a 1 on 1 with a bogey, the goal seems to be that you need to be the first one to get a HO guns solution with the NEME. If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles. If you aren’t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
Wow, every single statement in that paragraph is tactically wrong.
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HO hits are just too easy - esp. when you really think about the sizes of the planes and the closure rates.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
HO hits are just too easy - esp. when you really think about the sizes of the planes and the closure rates.
for most all new comers, if it works, and works easily, why even bother trying to do or learn anything else, especially if you can fly cannon equipped planes that the whole ammo load is nothing but cannon rounds, that at least gives them 2 full sprays for 2 kills to land and jump for joy, heh!
my opinion, only way to break the flow of what has been growing to be more and more HO flying monkeys, is to take them easy ripe bananas away from them and make them learn how to gain angles and preserve E.
or hmm, a randomizer?
but I only have 2 cents and think I just over extended my alloted withdrawl
TC
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I understand that in Air Warrior there was a hit bubble in front of your plane that prevented damage from a head on attack.
if memory serves me correctly, near the end or somewhere before it, the "Hit Bubble" was removed from the FR arenas and used only in the RR arenas and the "Hit Shell" was introduced and used in the FR arenas, but as my memory fades away so does the by gone days of Air Warrior...
TC
The Damned
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I understand that in Air Warrior there was a hit bubble in front of your plane that prevented damage from a head on attack.
It seems that every time I get into a 1 on 1 with a bogey, the goal seems to be that you need to be the first one to get a HO guns solution with the NEME. If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles. If you aren’t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
The only solution now seems to be get a cannon plane, get your nose around first and HO before you are HO’d.
I think that a frontal hit shield bubble may help.
Maybe if you started engaging planes in the air, or at least started vulching them from the rear, your HO concerns would be alleviated.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I understand that in Air Warrior there was a hit bubble in front of your plane that prevented damage from a head on attack.
The only solution now seems to be get a cannon plane, get your nose around first and HO before you are HO’d.
I think that a frontal hit shield bubble may help.
Yes, AW did use a bubble which certainly had some advantages. This being one example. In AW, you actually had to fly for a kill. In AH, its mostly about the joust. You will see that from both veteran and new player alike as it is usually the easiest path. Its unfortunate because the end result is that ACM really isn't rewarded in this sim, or at least it is far less so than something like AW. The "run, turn, joust, rinse, repeat" approach is all one really needs to know in AH to rack up a boatload of kills. It really need not be any more complicated than that...and that's a shame.
The Warbirds/AH evolution brought a lot of very cool things to the WWII sim genre. The handling of the front quarter in the gunnery model, and the resulting dominance of the joust as the primary tactic, is one of the less desirable results however. That little tidbit was anything but progressive.
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Another contributing factor is the range icons. Players just have gobs of time to line up for a HO shot.
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90% of all HOs result in both planes damaged and/or dead. It's their own damn fault for being stupid enough to insist on HOs all the time. Don't change it or it'll just make them try MORE! If they see they can HO and not die, but oops -- I died when he was behind/above/below/totheside, I better only HO again, at least I was safe then!
AWs ho shield was stupid, as is talk of introducing it to AH. This from the guy that got HOed and rammed by the HO-er over a dozen times in the past 2 days, and only got 2 successful HOs (today, on TC no less, in the CT). So I'm not just some hipocrite or something. Why not put a "shield" around it, so that once the shield wears down, bullets do damage? Why not make the bullets just disappear after 1k? Why not get rid of that atmospheric drag problem on all planes? Oh wait, that's called "TIE Fighter"... It's been done.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Wow, every single statement in that paragraph is tactically wrong.
Please explain? I am serious.
I engage a plane, we fly past each other I zoom up (rather than flat turn), and reverse at the top, kind of a yo yo. As I come back down the bogey has done the same. Now I have to take a nose to nose shot and get damaged (even when you get the kill). Or you can try to turn under or away from the bogeys guns solution. When you do, you lose angles (but not parts). Eventualy you are going to end up with the bogey on your six, getting ho'd, or if you stay in the fight bleeding e, someone cherry picks you.
I had a pretty good fight with a Spit8 in my Spit16, it lasted probably 3 minutes, I then decided to dive out and run. If I had stayed up there (about 9K) much longer his friends were going to cherry me. But almost every pass he would fire at me as I tried to avoid the HO. If he was better, I wouldn't have lived long enought to dive out of the fight. We dove down to about 3k and went into another turn fight, but eventually there was a furball, and he broke off (or he would have been cherried).
So other than flat turn, what do you do? Serious here.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Maybe if you started engaging planes in the air, or at least started vulching them from the rear, your HO concerns would be alleviated.
How kind :)
Actually most of my vulches are from the rear or sides.
Unless I compress :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Morpheus
avoid HO by starting a lead turn on them.
Let me see if I understand what you are saying. At the first merge, start a lead turn just before the merge? Then go vertical or flat turn?
I have switched to the Spit16, I gave up on the 109s. Since I can't fly anyways, I may as well take training wheels :)
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No you start your turn before you even merge. Start it, but dont complete it. A basic lead turn that's all. Gives you an angle on them while they're too busy trying to land a head on shot. Just always assume that the other guy is going to try for a head on and set up for it. There is always more than 1 way to skin a cat.
Most will, while going for a head on, blow any chance for a good reversal, the ones that dont, usuaully aren't that good to begin with and wont last more than a couple turns. My opinion of course.
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Originally posted by Krusty
AWs ho shield was stupid, as is talk of introducing it to AH. This from the guy that got HOed and rammed by the HO-er over a dozen times in the past 2 days, and only got 2 successful HOs (today, on TC no less, in the CT). So I'm not just some hipocrite or something.
ROFL, well Krusty, the 1st one I could not believe what you did, I was like no way he drove thru 2 or was it 3 planes, and come down and right at me, something I hardly ever see in the CT. but hey it's just a game right. The second one, well you was 2k above me turning and burning with a spit, I saw ya roll out figured you was coming for me, seeing how I figured it was gonna be the same I pulled nose up with no E, even hit ya right in the prop with my cannons, nothing, oh well, like I said before is just a game, I lost a wing and some other parts, you flew around got 2 more other kills, ( not sure how or by what means), and landed.
I do not understand which side of the fence you are on, I think you are PRO HO.
AW did not have a shield for HOing, it had a randomizer, it throwed out every so many frontal hits so to encourage dogfighting rather than jousting. but hey it was a game too, and it is gone. People could still kill with Face Shots in AW, and many did, and the P38s was good at it depending on the pilot.
as for the CT tonight, I laughed that off, but the idea of this thread, or my impression of it was how to better mold the flight sim into actual Air Combat Manuevering simulation instead of pure easily accomplished jousting.
yes, I flew straight, didn't flick an inch tonight, I know if I joust I die, because I do not practice it, alot of people do, if I fly angles or E, I am average at best, but I do have more fun trying to earn the win than just jousting it out.
til next sortie ~S~
TC
;)
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Wrong:
It seems that every time I get into a 1 on 1 with a bogey, the goal seems to be that you need to be the first one to get a HO guns solution with the NEME.
Right:
You try to kill the guy the best you can given the situation. A HO may be right in some situations, though certainnly not all and not most. And in any case it is your decision to accept the HO in a typical 1v1 merge so its clearly open to you to choose a goal.
Wrong:
If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles.
Right:
In fact it's just the opposite, you should avoid the HO and force the HO shooter to waste his and his angles by trying to jerk hard to get last minute lead on your HO avoidance manouvcer or lead turn.
Wrong:
If you aren’t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
Right:
Climb out of fights or fight to get on top of enemy.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles. If you aren�t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
The only solution now seems to be get a cannon plane, get your nose around first and HO before you are HO�d.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. You just don't know what you're doing :noid :furious :O
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Wrong:
It seems that every time I get into a 1 on 1 with a bogey, the goal seems to be that you need to be the first one to get a HO guns solution with the NEME.
Right:
You try to kill the guy the best you can given the situation. A HO may be right in some situations, though certainnly not all and not most. And in any case it is your decision to accept the HO in a typical 1v1 merge so its clearly open to you to choose a goal.
Wrong:
If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles.
Right:
In fact it's just the opposite, you should avoid the HO and force the HO shooter to waste his and his angles by trying to jerk hard to get last minute lead on your HO avoidance manouvcer or lead turn.
Wrong:
If you aren’t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
Right:
Climb out of fights or fight to get on top of enemy.
Thanks for the reply :)
I think that maybe I wasn't clear about the HO as being after the 1st merge where you have gone vertical or turned and the second merge tends to be who can get the HO shot, or 3rd or 4th or 5th or..... I had one fight with a LA5 just off the deck in a 109F4 (the pre 2.6 F4) And I spent the whole engagement just ducking his HO shots. Merge after merge after merge. Eventually he augered. One of the longest fights I've had in AH2. I was almost out of fuel at the end. Obviously he was not one of the top sticks in the game. But every time I seemed to get some e up, I had to use it to avoid the ho shot.
I had a fight with a 110 about 5 nights ago. I was in a HogD. I had just leveled a FH at the NEME base and ran like a scalded dog with half the red airforce after me. As I passed over the fleet I saw a 110 egressing in a the same direction I was going. I stayed on him and we ended up in a 1 on 1 away from the crowd.
I decided to try and turn with him just for grins. I cut throttle and went vertical with him, then hit flaps, got equal speed and we danced. We went round and round and he eventually got the angles for a ho, and as I tried to dive to my left, (from a vertical slow), a 30mm took off my wing as I tried to avoid. Now I am sure a good stick would have taken him out with a hog, but I don't fly the D hog that much, I fly the -1 a bit (nice plane lousey American 50 cal guns), nor am I particularly good at flying. But if I had my old pre 2.6 109, he would have been toast, but that is another story. All in all a fun fight, but again, get the guns up nose to nose...
Maybe I should just stick to vulching in a Dora :)
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Originally posted by wetrat
Wrong, wrong and wrong. You just don't know what you're doing :noid :furious :O
Well the fact that I don't know what I am doing is well known :)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
but the idea of this thread, or my impression of it was how to better mold the flight sim into actual Air Combat Manuevering simulation instead of pure easily accomplished jousting.
Well that was kind of the idea. At least to get some discussion on it, and maybe some solutions. I heard a lot of complaints about the HO's, it is a common thread on this BBS
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Originally posted by Krusty
Don't change it or it'll just make them try MORE! If they see they can HO and not die, but oops -- I died when he was behind/above/below/totheside, I better only HO again, at least I was safe then!
Your conclusions are entirely incorrect, but if you have some experience with both sides you would know that. Allow players the ability to joust, that will be the dominant tactic as is the case in AH. AW tried opening the front quarter to more shots at one point, and the game changed to Joust Warrior overnight. They rolled it back fairly fast.
So its a simple equation. Take away the big bullet rake on the nose, and you force people to fly for a kill. Jousting goes bye bye and you end up with a sim that rewards ACM first and foremost. I know which I prefer. I just have never understood why folks prefer the joust dominated model. *shrug*
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Another contributing factor is the range icons. Players just have gobs of time to line up for a HO shot.
Very good point DoK.
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If you matched the 110's speed and saddled up, I dont see how the 110 was able to hit the head on. Did you bleed so much E that the 110 had time to create a large distance cushion and reverse? I prolly read that wrong.
Now if a Hog and a 110 were equal E and directly opposite each other in a FLAT turn, the hog should win by default with badass flaps and higher deployment speed.
But pure flat turns are a basic tactic... not very aggressive, no suprises, what you see is what you get... it be the common sense approach. Throw in some yo-yo's, play with your E state, and you'll have a very interesting fight. In some cases a very slight high yoyo would allow you to dip your speed to allow for more flaps and gain a few degrees on the other guy. This may be all you need to get a shot, but if not, follow up with a low yoyo and 'reset' your E. Dip down further to get closer to your plane's cornering speed and get that much closer to his six. Imagine this is done within 1-1.5 full trips around.
High yoyo, kill speed, lower flaps. Low yoyo, gain speed, raise flaps. At very low speeds both the 110 and F4U should drop flaps a ton, with slight variations if needed. A 110 may be fat, but one notch above full flaps at 90-100 can get over the top and gain an angle very quick. The hog is the same. Full flappage at 90-100 coming down from a high bank should be instinctive.
2 or many vs. 1, disregard everything up there ^.
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HOs are not a problem. Seriously. Let me say it again for the old AW people who don't believe that. HOs are not a problem.
Sure, you'll believe that they are for your first year or maybe even two after transitioning from Air Warrior. Then you begin to realize that HOs are only problems if you allow them to become problems; they do not detract from air combat because if you're doing things properly, they never really become a deciding factor in air combat. Not in Aces High anyway.
Does anyone here honestly believe that flying straight through an opponent's nose like many folks did in AW was some sort of superior ACM? Seriously? That the way actual pilots avoided BnZers was to point their nose at them in the vertical so they couldn't hit the HO shot on the way down? Hm.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Octavius
If you matched the 110's speed and saddled up, I dont see how the 110 was able to hit the head on.
Did you bleed so much E that the 110 had time to create a large distance cushion and reverse? I prolly read that wrong.
I was on his six as fast as the D Hog would run, he was a bit slower. We went vertical with I cut throttle to match his speed, we stalled at the top. and then I tried to stay with him. My normal approach would have been to roar up with WEP and fire as I went up, then roar past him as he flopped over, and dive down on him to keep him turning to avoid me. Either that or usually just keep above him so I don't get cherry picked and go look for another cherry.
I just wanted to try dancing for a change.
He flat out flew me, and eventually got the angles for a HO :)
And as for your other stuff, I am reading and studying it, thanks! :)
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TC: I'm with Levi on this one. I guess you could same I'm "pro HO" because I don't want gamey restrictions on which angles I can actually land shots, etc. I'm for not reducing or restricting them, so I guess I'm for them.
EDIT: I was dealing with one spit and 3 more in a row come in at me, I can't hit 1 because bad angle, I can't get 2 because you'll just pull up and nail me if I zoom around for 2, I had to go past them to the "end of the line" and pick off tail end charlie, it was for my own safety. Nothing personal (didn't know it was you an' all).
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HO'ing has been with the games since they started ... 1987. There are many contributing factors, the most obvious are that it takes a lot less thought and skill than ACM, and it's the one shot you're almost sure to get in most engagements. So most people will take it, obviously.
The problem really arises when the majority come to depend on the HO as a primary means of accomplishing their objective. The Tiffy plowing through at 400+ mph HO'ing everything in sight being a good example. He expects to die and just wants to take at least one or two with him. This puts the "work" on the people who can actually fly to avoid the HO-beast. And that's where the frustration kicks in.
Why are HO's so "easy?" As I mentioned before, the range icons allow one to line up a HO shot at 1000's of yards out instead of knowing the inbound plane is friend or foe in that last few hundred yards - which doesn't leave much reaction time. Next there's no real risk of death in AH, whereas HO'ing in real life is playing chicken at 500+ mph closure rates - no way people would gamble their lives away like that in real life unless there was no other option. Next the problems of "blanks" and what-not seem much less with HO shots - probably the network lag issues aren't as big a factor when the target is heading into your bullets as compared to trying to calculate lead on a tracking shot. And lastly it's just much easier to track a jinking target at 500+ mph closure rates in the game than in real life.
What's the answer? I dunno. The contrubuting reasons why HO's are easy to achieve are artificial, so I'm less opposed to an artificial mechanism to reduce their effectiveness. Throwing out some percentage of hits based on angle-off from the head-on and closure rate is fine by me. That wouldn't stop HO's, quad-20mm planes will still try for a HO ... they only need one or two hits to kill. But the time of exposure needed to land those hits would increase, whicih puts the "work" on the HO'er to dump a pile of ammo into the HO pass instead of one quick burst to vape the oncoming plane.
But I seriously doubt HT agrees with me on this one. :lol
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
HDoes anyone here honestly believe that flying straight through an opponent's nose like many folks did in AW was some sort of superior ACM? Seriously? That the way actual pilots avoided BnZers was to point their nose at them in the vertical so they couldn't hit the HO shot on the way down? Hm.
My thoughts almost exactly.
HO Shields massively distort aircombat and then we may as well play X-Wing vs TIE Fighter.
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Headons aren't easy unless you allow them to be easy. Seriously, with enough experience they become very simple to avoid or exploit. We can't dodge them all of course, but then even AW allowed 3% or so of HO shots to hit. But having flown Aces High for an inordinately long time, and also having come from Air Warrior prior to that, I can state two things confidently.
First, HOs prove extremely frustrating to people with an AW background. They are difficult to avoid because AW players never learned how to avoid or exploit them. They were essentially non-issues in that game and are anything but non-issues in Aces High. I felt this way the first year after I moved from AW to AH -- I wanted headons removed so I could fight, damnit!
However, after awhile I realized that HOs weren't a big deal. You could fight and avoid them almost at will, and in many cases you could make players pay for their lack of creativity. I developed moves I wish I'd known years ago in AW instead of relying on the old "fly through the nose" routine. Once you realize this, a great new world of ACM and air combat opens up to you. The game is not worse, but it is quite a bit different than AW. Once old AW folks realize that fact and adjust to it, it really does not present the sorts of problems many claim. I see people complain about headons and I just scratch my head wondering what game they're playing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I'm with levi; even in AW i was doing Ho avoidance and lead turns. I think I did pretty well in AW, too.
:aok
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Originally posted by Morpheus
No you start your turn before you even merge. Start it, but dont complete it. A basic lead turn that's all. Gives you an angle on them while they're too busy trying to land a head on shot.
Also, try doing it under his line of sight by diving just a little. You'll disappear under his nose and he'll have to push his nose down for a hit (plus needs lead!) and loose his steady alignment. As a secondary gain, the merge is with you going slightly up and he's going slightly down, if you both reverse hard, a high yoyo has a smaller radius than a low yoyo, plus you already got a few degrees head start from the lead turn.
Bozon
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DMF wrote: HOs are not a problem. Seriously. Let me say it again for the old AW people who don't believe that. HOs are not a problem.
absolutely, in total agreement, from the point I don't truly have a problem with them. Is why in my post I said I flew straight at my oponent in the Ct and didn't flick an inch. I had maybe 25 minutes tops to get a few rounds in, and that was that.
Krusty wrote: EDIT: I was dealing with one spit and 3 more in a row come in at me, I can't hit 1 because bad angle, I can't get 2 because you'll just pull up and nail me if I zoom around for 2, I had to go past them to the "end of the line" and pick off tail end charlie, it was for my own safety. Nothing personal
you did the right thing then, if you was thinking I would jump you when you wasn't looking ( what the MA usually is like ). Had you know it was me you would have known I would have not engaged you, while you was tangled up with 3 on you.
and no worries, Krusty it is all just a game.
Shane wrote: I'm with levi; even in AW i was doing Ho avoidance and lead turns. I think I did pretty well in AW, too.
Yep, when that Oopsy guy disappeared, and most people who learned that the HOer was wasting valuable time and advantage on angles, who learned to do as Morph has repeatedly pointed out and start an early lead turn.
1 cannot base anothers flying ways in one night/one encounter. I tryed to have some fun in the CT, and I did. Krusty, I even got a few giggles from all the talk on 200 from some of them people ( not you ).
ain't no big thing, didn't try to make it one.....is all good
TC
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Yrch another one ;)
Come on people, AW is dead, so is this silly stupid idea of a "head-on bubble" and I for one am damn glad it doesn't exist in AH nor existed in WB when I started playing that.
HO's are easy to avoid pretty much every time, the times they are not are the times you're too slow (like doing 90mph when on a rope or being roped) and then you've done a bad thing anyway and desirve to get shot down.
I never get shot down in HO's, hell I pretty much never even get hit. I did get hit a few days ago, 2 seconds after the HO, I blame lag and delay there, my evasive actions didn't work because I hadn't really started them on his FE yet. (and still I survived the HO from a Hurri 2C).
Head-on's are not a problem like Levi said.
People get "locked-up" when they see a plane coming towards them, it is the same thing as target fixation, brainfart.
Same thing happens in the nature from time to time when two animals meet. They can't decide wether to fight or run so they both sit down and start groming themselves.
Same as in AH. Turn or dive to avoid HO? Urgh, brainfart, let's go straight instead!
Do this, every time you are about to HO avoid it, turn, jink, climb, dive whatever you think might work.
After that outfly the enemy, or get outflown. If you get outflown you most likely will have learnt something.
The biggest reason people never develop skills in AH is because they don't try and are afraid to get shot down.
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I would like to see a HO bubble for goons and that's it..Would make them a bit more survivable(and fun to fly).
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All you have to do in a goon is stay on peoples six. Thats the safest place to be :).
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Originally posted by Schatzi
All you have to do in a goon is stay on peoples six. Thats the safest place to be :).
wtf lol :lol
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
If you try to avoid the HO, you only bleed e and angles. If you aren?t willing to go head on, you have to dive out of the fight.
Wrong. If you set it correct, his pulling for HO puts you in a perfect position for getting solution at him after it.
You can't avoid all HOs though, sometimes you get full of it.
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Akfoder...
One thing that helps is to not fly DIRECTLY at your opponent (it even works at the top of a loop :)). Think separation. This will help your lead turns and give you angles on most any ho-monkey.
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First off lets get the definition correct.
A Head On is when you see the enemy at 6k out, you both turn directly at each other, and bore in nose to nose guns blazing.
A forward quarter shot in the middle of a turn fight is NOT a head on, and as such should NOT have some special "shield" so it can't happen. Such shots happened in real life, in fact some pilots made a practise of them. So what can possibly be your justifcation for such a thing?
HT of course flew AW, knew all about the "Bubble" yet failed to code anything remotely resembling that in either of the 2 he's done since AW.
Gee, can't imagine why.
AW is gone, AW is dead, AW will not return.
What you have is AH, like it or leave it. But quit trying to make it into AW.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
wtf lol :lol
It may seem funny, bit it indeed works. After all, you cant shoot at what's behind you (unless we're talking 110's), and the Goon is actually a very maneuverable aircraft.
Stick a couple LMG's in the nose and I'd fly it as a fighter :aok
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Headons aren't easy unless you allow them to be easy. Seriously, with enough experience they become very simple to avoid or exploit. We can't dodge them all of course, but then even AW allowed 3% or so of HO shots to hit. But having flown Aces High for an inordinately long time, and also having come from Air Warrior prior to that, I can state two things confidently.
First, HOs prove extremely frustrating to people with an AW background. They are difficult to avoid because AW players never learned how to avoid or exploit them. They were essentially non-issues in that game and are anything but non-issues in Aces High. I felt this way the first year after I moved from AW to AH -- I wanted headons removed so I could fight, damnit!
However, after awhile I realized that HOs weren't a big deal. You could fight and avoid them almost at will, and in many cases you could make players pay for their lack of creativity. I developed moves I wish I'd known years ago in AW instead of relying on the old "fly through the nose" routine. Once you realize this, a great new world of ACM and air combat opens up to you. The game is not worse, but it is quite a bit different than AW. Once old AW folks realize that fact and adjust to it, it really does not present the sorts of problems many claim. I see people complain about headons and I just scratch my head wondering what game they're playing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Lev
Thats the best qualification for what had been basically blanket statements in the past by you on the subject of HO, you do realize your skill set in AH is extremely above the average AH member and what may make total sense to you and seem hugely a non issue too someone with your skills could in fact be a major negative to a majority membership that may or may not attain your level of skill ever after years of practice?
OP
TJ
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Originally posted by T0J0
Lev
Thats the best qualification for what had been basically blanket statements in the past by you on the subject of HO, you do realize your skill set in AH is extremely above the average AH member and what may make total sense to you and seem hugely a non issue too someone with your skills could in fact be a major negative to a majority membership that may or may not attain your level of skill ever after years of practice?
OP
TJ
So start practicing and stop trying to change AH into AW.
People well bellow average can quite easily avoid HO's in AH aswell, there is no real skill required for it. What happens after requires skill and that is why most people take the HO. Because they lack any sort of ACM knowledge or skill. Why do they lack it? Because they take the bloody HO because they don't practice dying in a dogfight.
Well said Ghosth!
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The question to ask yourself, T0J0, is whether HTC should alter the game's fundamental design by limiting the chance to hit HO shots, or if players should learn to avoid them with the ACM tools already provided to them within the parameters of the game.
I understand what you're saying, but at some point players must make an effort to learn how to avoid HOs or they will always find them frustrating. This is not, IMO, a skill issue so much as it is a dedication, practice, and self-motivation issue. The biggest hurdle I faced as an ex-AW player was realizing that there were other things to do out there besides going HO with someone on the merge. That's a big hurdle for ex-AW players and for new flight sim players alike since we intuitively see an enemy plane and like to point our noses at it. But does faulty intuition require a developer-driven solution or a player-driven solution?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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No need to debate wether HT will or will not implement this "bubble".
I could bet dollars to donuts that it WILL NEVER be implemented.
If he thought it was a good idea ... he would have implemented it LONG AGO.
Dodging the HO is one of the easiest things to do ... novice or expert alike.
As mentioned above ... the novice does it cause it's the only trick they have in the bag. Eventually/Hopefully the will move on to bigger and better things. If not, then they will constantly get pwned by those that don't.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Same thing happens in the nature from time to time when two animals meet. They can't decide wether to fight or run so they both sit down and start groming themselves.
Same as in AH.
Thank you for this outstandingly disgusting mental imagery of some hairy, fat dweeb behind his monitor trying to lick his nads while barreling in for a HO. :O
edit: of course i'm sure some FBD's have pix of SOB actually doing it...
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It would be interesting to see what happens if range icons didn't come in to play at distances beyond 1000.
DmdMax
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Originally posted by Shane
edit: of course i'm sure some FBD's have pix of SOB actually doing it...
SOB isn't flexible enough to groom himself, so he has to groom others instead.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by DMax
It would be interesting to see what happens if range icons didn't come in to play at distances beyond 1000.
DmdMax
just as interesting as if we could have actual 20/20 vision modeled, i'm sure. i swear with some of the darker (newer) instrument panels, we're legally blind in terms of in-game vision.
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i never die from a HO, i really dont see whats so difficuly about avoiding them.:huh
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I love HOs....
(in both respects... lol)
But seriously, I like HOs mainly because I know I suck pretty bad, but if someone's trying to HO me, that means there's a decent chance they suck too, and by dodging the HO and maneuvering, I can get a kill and not die. =)
I DO like the idea of removing the distance marker though. Dunno if it'll help HOs but definitely will make it tougher to aim.
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Originally posted by T0J0
Lev
Thats the best qualification for what had been basically blanket statements in the past by you on the subject of HO, you do realize your skill set in AH is extremely above the average AH member and what may make total sense to you and seem hugely a non issue too someone with your skills could in fact be a major negative to a majority membership that may or may not attain your level of skill ever after years of practice?
OP
TJ
Well my skill set is considerably below Levithan's and perhaps below the average, but I've never died in a HO that I've tried to avoid.
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Id rather loose a fight then 'win' it by HOing the opponent down.
Generally i manage to avoid most HOs. Unless im too slow, saw the guy too late, or otherwise been busy with his friends. Each of this situation would be entirely my fault. There might be one HO or two a tour that you cant avoid, but hey.... does that really matter? I rant for a min or two on squad chan, then move on.
TJ is right though, there *is* a certain skill level (even if its a basic one) required to avoid HOs. But one that i think can be achieved by anyone that sets his mind to it. But thats just it. You have to be *willing* to learn ACM, go the hard way, and die a lot in the process.
Not everyone is a masochist like i am ;).
PS: Max, I did some no-icon fights in the past. Snapshots and DA. Its actually not all that hard to judge distance simply by size of the airplane. More difficult is the relative movement (comes my way or extends?). Just NEVER loose sight of the opponent. Hes difficult to find once you lost him. It sure makes for some new, fun challenge.
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Originally posted by Shane
Thank you for this outstandingly disgusting mental imagery of some hairy, fat dweeb behind his monitor trying to lick his nads while barreling in for a HO. :O
edit: of course i'm sure some FBD's have pix of SOB actually doing it...
Bwhahaha!
Bet you'll have nightmares now
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The HO is annoying, and sometimes unavoidable in a big furball ( some guys will allways up cannon planes and go Ho'in when the furball is at their base)
And no, It doesn't take 2 to HO, many fights start nose to nose, but it takes both planes to decide their going to have a good old ACM fight.
Wadke and I had one of those epic turn fights the other day that started at 10k and ended 5 mins later at the deck. The kind that leave your arms tired, hands shaking, and wanting a drink and a cigarette when it's over ( at least thats how I felt ) Needing to pull all the ACM's in the book...flaps , Thrott, going like mad....just a great fight...one of the best I'v had in a long time.
3/4 of the way through...another enmy jumped in...didn't HO either...and the fight continued for a while longer.
The reason for such a good fight IMO is that neither of us went for a HO from start to finish.
The fight could have ended sooner ( or never happened at all ) with a well placed HO, but what fun would that have been.
BTW.....got HO'ed by a mossie while RTB and I never landed those 2 kills....lol
to Wadke.......There can still be good fights in the MA, both pilots just need to be willing to have them.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
First, HOs prove extremely frustrating to people with an AW background. They are difficult to avoid because AW players never learned how to avoid or exploit them. They were essentially non-issues in that game and are anything but non-issues in Aces High. I felt this way the first year after I moved from AW to AH -- I wanted headons removed so I could fight, damnit!
-- Todd/Leviathn
You can state it confidently, but it doesn't make it any less correct. AW had its time with HO's too. Learning to avoid them is not the issue, nor are some fictional tactics that are ingrained in any who flew the sim. That concept is quite absurd.
As I've stated before, the frustrating part (for me) is that HO's put the game into easy mode. Its not that AH is so difficult....hardly. Its that its arcadish with the HO. With the beefed up gunnery, laser sighting front quarter joust, etc its infinitely easier to rack up kills in AH than it ever was in AW, regardless of where you got your sim feet wet. Learning to avoid them, just as was the case when AW had them active, is a few minute afair. That doesn't take away from the fact that it gives the game a real arcade feel. Once you've transitioned to the different flight model, AH is a far easier environment to prosper in (which is really the point). This carrying over bad tactics argument is simply incorrect.
I think DoK summarized it well though, and is spot on. I also agree with his conclusion too in that I don't think its something that will ever change. But AH needs it Tie Fighter components too, and its certainly got them in this case.
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Originally posted by Vortex
You can state it confidently, but it doesn't make it any less correct. AW had its time with HO's too. Learning to avoid them is not the issue, nor are some fictional tactics that are ingrained in any who flew the sim. That concept is quite absurd.
[/b]
You cannot possibly compare HOs in AW with HOs in AH. The hit resolution in both games differs substantially, so the sorts of considerations that went into reducing the likelihood of HOs in AW do not exist whatsoever in AH2.
As I've stated before, the frustrating part is that HO's put the game into easy mode. That's what's frustrating. Its not that AH is so difficult....hardly. Once you've transitioned to the different flight model, kills are infinitely easier here than in AW, especially for the AW veteran who brings over a sound ACM background. Its that its arcadish with the HO. Learning to avoid them is a few minute afair, although that isn't the point at all. That doesn't take away from the fact that they are the dominant tactic for many and it gives the game a real arcade feel.
[/b]
If kills are easier here than in AW, it is only because of two things: a lower general skill level in AH, and the lack of HO protection that provided a safety net for players who could force nose-to-nose situations. I disagree that HOs give the game an arcade feel; in fact, IMO Air Warrior seems much more of an arcade game than AH when viewing it retrospectively.
AW just happens to be an example of a sim that didn't encourage jousting, HT's works are examples of sims that do.
And again the problem is this -- Air Warrior dissuaded jousting but rewarded behavior that was not realistic, particularly when it came to dodging BnZ/E-fighting attacks. Aces High allows unrealistic levels of jousting but punishes unrealistic behavior in other situations. We'll call it a tradeoff then, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make. Perhaps you are not.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Actually, AW players are less likely to HO. Back in the day the only plane that was well suited to the tactic was the FW - it was THE cannon bird. Period. In AH everything HO's ... HO Populi ... Zekes do it, Mustangs do it, bombers do it. Somewhere in the back of an AW players mind is the logic that says "I'm in a P51, he's in a N1K1 ... 6 50's v. 4 20mm's ... HO'ing would be bad for me" ... not so the person who's only played AH it appears.
And, lest nothing be good said about HO'ing, it is pretty much the only shot you get on the venerable Pork Runner.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Actually, AW players are less likely to HO.
I was always less likely to HO back when I first started. It was deeply ingrained in my way of approaching the game that it was not a valid tactic, so the thought of HOing didn't enter my mind in most situations. That of course led to further frustration early on because nobody else had such qualms.
I really think that the transition from AW to AH is an easy one. The single biggest thing is the pervasiveness of HOs; once a player adjusts to that, it's like old times again.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Well i must say i find them very very annoying...not so much in that they are hard to dodge but in that just about every fight I get in my opponents go for head ons...this is fine accept that im usually fighting 2 or more who still insist on using the ho. If im forced to merge in any kind of nose to nose pass I can be assured of massive amounts of nose jerking cannon spray from my oponents..gamey and weak..jmo
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HOs are easy as pie to avoid. What I mess up is what comes after I dodge the HO. :lol
nazgulAX,
Sometimes HO's just happen in the middle of a dogfight. I remember a fight, long, long ago, between me in an A6M5b and an F4U-1C. After fighting for position for a bit we came out of our respective turns at about 600 yards, facing eachother directly and neither of us had enough speed to get out of the way if we tried to dodge. We did the only thing that we could, the HO and I certainly don't make it a habit to HO F4U-1Cs when I am flying A6Ms. We both hit eachother, but he only got my oil, I got his engine.
There seems to be a misnomer that real life WWII pilots never HOed and that is simply not true. Some pilots used it as SOP.
Still, if I think I have any chance to win without the HO, I will avoid the HO. But if I am flying a Mossie and you come at me in an La-7, Spit XVI or what have you and offer me an HO, damn right I'll take it, it is my best shot for living. If I am flying a Spit VIII or Ki-84 I will always avoid the HO, barring a situation like I was in agaist that F4U-1C.
DoKGonZo,
AW pilots are more likely to, by force of habit, HO themselves by flying straight at the enemy. AW taught them that was a good idea as it protected them from harm. AH players ruthlessly exploited that bad habit by shooting them in the face when they did it.
Then they come here and complain about it.
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anyone wHO's been in this game longer than 6 months shouldn't whine about HOs - instead they should lament the lack of overall cluelessness about ACM, including their own.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
So start practicing and stop trying to change AH into AW.
I never mentioned AW at all in my last several posts that I remember...
I did mention how the "HO" is the only tactic used by 99% of the community %100 of the time.. Sure a few of you top %1 are so superior in your skill set to never get killed by the "HO" me for one dont have 12 hours a day to practice HO survival skills.. I would prefer an alternate AH universe where a HO bubble
was introduced where I could log in on Friday nights for several hours slam a few beers down, relax, forget about the work week, and yuk it up with the squad... and not have to deal with a 1 second "HO" shot killing my 20 minutes of flight time every single flight the only day of the week I can logon...
I would also take a wild shot that there are more players that share my belief then there are of you few %1 percenters who live by the "HO" and pretend that your opinion is gospel and to think differnetly is in some way an attribute of weakness.
Just an OP of course...
TJ
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Originally posted by jaxxo
Well i must say i find them very very annoying...not so much in that they are hard to dodge but in that just about every fight I get in my opponents go for head ons...this is fine accept that im usually fighting 2 or more who still insist on using the ho. If im forced to merge in any kind of nose to nose pass I can be assured of massive amounts of nose jerking cannon spray from my oponents..gamey and weak..jmo
That's it in a nutshell. That and how often in a one on one merge the guy takes the HO and runs on past to try and get to the airfield to vulch instead of fighting the guy in the air.
Gotta get those points and perks ya know:rolleyes:
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Hit bubble...
The AW hit bubble was a bubble that went from nose to tail and wingtip to wingtip. Hit the bubble and you got a hit on the plane. Each plane had a pre-determined amount of damage it could take. When the damage points were gone, the plane blew up. In AW, the bubble had little impact on headons. AH's method is miles ahead.
Headons in AW...
Headons in AW were handled with a randomizer. Each headon hit was randomly checked to see if it was a hit, the randomizer was set at 10% (1 hit registered out of 10 hits made). After BB took over, planes with centerline guns (109s and 38s) were given a 'bonus' to the randomizer. This made headons from them extra lethal.
Headons in AH...
The gunnery in AH is attempting to be a 'reality' based model. That, in large part, is what makes it so much better than the model in AW (Dok..remember the 'laser' gunnery in AW :)). The reason that headons are so lethal in AH is the unrealistic way in which players use the model. Think about it, in the real world, how many people would want to play chicken in a airplane with closure rates of 700 to 800 mph?
I can tell you what Dale would say (because I've asked him :D), the gunnery is realistically modeled...it's not his fault if players insist on using it in an unrealistic manner.
With all of the 'new' guys trying out the K4's, I have seen more headons that ever, lately. While I understand the difficulty in learning to deflection shoot in a 109, it find it sad that so many don't bother to try to learn.
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T0j0:
well, if you're too lazy to simply roll out of the way of a HO...
maybe you'd be better served on fri nights by simply staying in the tower, or using /.join and ride with one of your squaddies so you can "yuk it up."
i can only pretend to sympathize with the fact that some lamer HO-dweeb screws up what is obviously gonna be a great vulch-auger fest at the base your squad is inbound to.
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Well if you think you need, or if you really need (for real) 12 hours a day to learn how to dodge a HO maybe you'd be better off in a ground veichle or a bomber.
I don't really know nor care how high the % is and who cares about what. I dare say most people who have been with AH or WB instead of AW want it the way it is. AW was arcadish in many aspects.
I would also take a wild shot that there are more players that share my belief then there are of you few %1 percenters who live by the "HO" and pretend that your opinion is gospel and to think differnetly is in some way an attribute of weakness.
Well I am not one of those "1 percenters" as I pretty much always avoid the HO (that doesn't mean I don't take front quarter shots if there is no risc involved with it).
Lastly. To think different, is an attribute of weakness.
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Originally posted by Shane
T0j0:
well, if you're too lazy to simply roll out of the way of a HO...
maybe you'd be better served on fri nights by simply staying in the tower, or using /.join and ride with one of your squaddies so you can "yuk it up."
i can only pretend to sympathize with the fact that some lamer HO-dweeb screws up what is obviously gonna be a great vulch-auger fest at the base your squad is inbound to.
:aok ... PERFECT !!!
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Originally posted by Ghosth
AW is gone, AW is dead, AW will not return.
:cry
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Originally posted by T0J0
I would also take a wild shot that there are more players that share my belief then there are of you few %1 percenters who live by the "HO" and pretend that your opinion is gospel and to think differnetly is in some way an attribute of weakness.
I would take a wild shot that you are wrong about more players sharing your belief. If 99% of the players HO 100% of the time, then why would 99% of the players want to remove their most succesful tactic?
In any event, you are becoming far too defensive here. I have repeatedly stated that avoiding the HO does not require some magical "skill" unachievable by others. You just need to know how to do it, and that takes some practice. That doesn't mean a lot of practice, but you will have to put in a little effort here. In the time you've spent bellyaching about HOs, you could have spent instead reading about how to avoid them, or you could have spent it in the TA actually practicing avoiding them. I bet one good evening with Widewing or another trainer in the TA would have you good to go and would greatly increase your enjoyment of the game.
Please stop trying to turn this into an elitist vs. normal guy thing. It's not.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Hell, I learned to avoid the HO after little effort, and I suck as a pilot! "If I can do it, you can too! Ask me how!"
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It seems then that in AH ACM means:
Avoid the HO on the first merge, go vertical, build up you aerial maneuvering skills to the point where you can be the first one to get your nose around and HO the other guy on the next pass without him being able to bring his guns to bear on you.
Either that or loop your LA7 around at the top fast enough to ho the guy on your six who is almost stalling in a less powerful and less maneuverable plane.
Thus things like split S, scissors, Thatch Weaves etc are things best left to other flight sims.
This is my first WW2 sim. In the 2 previous flight sims I flew in were WW1. There it was about energy management, angles, and working your way unto the guys six until you could shoot out his wing, or his engine with sustained fire. One shot kills were the exception.
So it really is HO or be HO’d, I can learn live with that. :)
I usually live by just blowing past the bogey on the first merge, avoiding his HO, stay fast, and don’t reengage for the second HO pass. Stay high, and look for cherry picks.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
It seems then that in AH ACM means:
Avoid the HO on the first merge, go vertical, build up you aerial maneuvering skills to the point where you can be the first one to get your nose around and HO the other guy on the next pass without him being able to bring his guns to bear on you.
That is not an HO. If the other guy cannot get a gun solution on you it cannot be considered an HO.
Either that or loop your LA7 around at the top fast enough to ho the guy on your six who is almost stalling in a less powerful and less maneuverable plane.
That is just poor planning on the rope. Why give the guy a shot when you can wait for him to stall and then shoot him in the ass?
Thus things like split S, scissors, Thatch Weaves etc are things best left to other flight sims.
I dunno, I see them all the time.
This is my first WW2 sim. In the 2 previous flight sims I flew in were WW1. There it was about energy management, angles, and working your way unto the guys six until you could shoot out his wing, or his engine with sustained fire. One shot kills were the exception.
So it really is HO or be HO’d, I can learn live with that. :)
I usually live by just blowing past the bogey on the first merge, avoiding his HO, stay fast, and don’t reengage for the second HO pass. Stay high, and look for cherry picks.
You seem to be puting anything vaguely frontal into the HO category. That is a common error.
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"and HO the other guy on the next pass without him being able to bring his guns to bear on you."
That's not a HO. That's a top-down deflection shot. I see people go for that a lot. There are some ways around it, other ways don't work too hot. But that's not a HO.
P.S. If you keep seeing the same end result of the merge, merge in a different way. Instead of pulling tight zoom straight up and keep going, try to time it so that the other person is pulling tight and you can loop back on them once they've nosed over. This is dangerous because sometimes they can reposition and fire on you as you go up, but has worked a few times for me.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Thus things like split S, scissors, Thatch Weaves etc are things best left to other flight sims.
Bad example there. The Thach Weave sets up a purposeful front quarter shot for the unengaged wingman. Thus AH actually allows the proper execution of this maneuver as opposed to AW, where the HO "shield" would have rendered it largely ineffective.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I have a few thoughts on this. Let me start by saying I hate accepting/going for the pure HO in any situation except vs. a 262/163. Anytime I get Ho'd I consider it my own fault and it's almost invariably by some guy with 13 kills in 300 hops and a 2% hit %, so I know he could not have killed me any other way. That being said HO's are a real problem, while I realize AW is dead it did have a few things right imho. One of those is the lessening of the HO effect.
The reason this is important is because in real life, HO's were considered a very, very dangerous move, yes they were done, but not in the same fashion they are in a game. Planes in real life did not see each other 3k away nose right at each other guns a blazing until one/both of them died or collided, but that happens all the time in AH. The possibility of a very real death in a very risky manuever was enough to dissuade most WW2 pilots from going for the HO if any other viable option was available to them. In a game, however, where the worst possible thing that can happen is you get a fresh plane the HO takes on an entirely 'un-realistic' appeal.
So, this is typcial of how it plays out in the game. I'll use Shane as an example because I know he won't mind. Shane will be the first to tell you he has no problems going for the HO. Shane and you are co-alt he noses into you, you see his 3 cannon La7 is going to attempt to HO. You have a choice, A) accept the invitation or B) attempt to evade the HO. Well, Shane knows if you accept the HO you are probably a weaker pilot who is turning down the chance to possibly outmanuever an La7, against a weaker player he would be willing to take the chance his aim is superior on the HO. If you do not go for the HO he knows you are likely a better player who in attempting to avoid the HO will have to give up critical E and/or angle in what is otherwise a co-alt/co-E fight.
So, even better players, Shane is just my example, there's many others that use the threat of the HO for the intimidation factor to gain an advantage in a fight. Yes, of course you can attempt to evade, against all but superior marksmen that will probably allow you to avoid the initial merge HO shot, but in doing so you have given the would-be HO'er a critical advantage in the fight depending on relative skill and/or plane match-ups which could be the deciding factor.
The other problem has been stated is in regard to newer players. They can gain some measure of immediate success by simply HO'ing everything they possibly can and running from anything else. It doesn't take any skill or talent, and they occassionally get to land kills and see their name in lights. This gives them little impetus do do anything else, they never become better at anything except HO'ing. The fear is, and I know a few people who are like this is, we breed a whole generation of 'professional HO artists'. That is people who started off HO'ing because it had a unique 'immediate gratification' quality in a game with an otherwise incredibly steep learning curve and just never put the time or effort into taking 'their' game to the next level.
In summary, it is my personal belief that 'artifically' making HO's as unattractive an option in the game as they were in real life would make the fights in the game and the players far better in terms of quality.
Zazen
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"Somewhere in the back of an AW players mind is the logic that says "I'm in a P51, he's in a N1K1 ... 6 50's v. 4 20mm's ... HO'ing would be bad for me" ... "
That's spot on.
The limited HO rule was an obviously contrived feature, but in the eyes of some it improved gameplay. To dismiss AW as "arcadish" due to such features is rather snobbish as AH uses several equally "gamey" features (such as the fuel multiplier or ENY system in the MA). AW was poorly-managed and outdated, but "arcade" it was not, not even in the RR arenas. May I suggest a game like "Carrier Aces" for the SNES for those who want to experience a truly "arcade" WW2 flightsim.
"AW is gone, AW is dead, AW will not return"
Neither will the Beatles, but that doesn't mean they weren't good.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Zazen13
If you do not go for the HO he knows you are likely a better player who in attempting to avoid the HO will have to give up critical E and/or angle in what is otherwise a co-alt/co-E fight.
This is, bluntly, wrong.
It is the guy going for the HO that is giving up E and position.
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Zazen, you're assuming most newbies can HO properly. Most I see ram me in the process of the HO. Half can't hit squat. I got passed by a 110, a 109, a typh, and a spit all trying to HO me a week ago, not one hit me despite my steady flight (no evasives, steady level flight).
Instant gratification? What, that they died? That's not too gratifying for a newbie. That they wasted all that ammo firing from 1k out? Rtb ammo is not very gratifying either.
In fact, if you want to actually land HO shots without damage it requires intermediate skills. At that point the pilot is making a decision, not simply doing the only thing he/she knows to do.
Besides, most newbies want to turn, and take spits. Spits ain't the best for HOs, in general.
So your claim that only newbies will HO is not supported by the requirements to successfully complete a HO attack.
THEN you also add to the fact that HOs are rarely ever 1-way. Usually both planes sustain major damage. It's not an effective tactic, in my book. I still do it, because sometimes any tactic is better than no tactic. When I do it, however, I realize the risks and don't want any cheesy has-been code from a has-been game preventing me from doing it.
Seems that most WB/AH folks don't want this, and that only a few AW piners miss it. None of y'all stop and thought "Hrm... maybe the reason AW HOs were such a problem was the laser beam weapons..."
Which... lemme check -- yep! .... we don't have those in AH! It's not even remotely comparable. So don't compare AH to AW anymore, it gets tiring :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
So your claim that only newbies will HO is not supported by the requirements to successfully complete a HO attack.
I never said ONLY noobs HO, I used Shane as an example of a 10+ year veteran who HOs. Many vets use the threat of the HO to gain an advantage.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Karnak
This is, bluntly, wrong.
It is the guy going for the HO that is giving up E and position.
Well, I disagree with you. The guy avoiding the HO either has to perform a lead turn a lateral or vertical rolling manuever or some other manuever that drastically changes his attitude relative to the Ho'er to spoil the shot. All but the lead turn gives up angle, and all of them give up E relative to a HO'er who just barrels straight at you until he either HO's you are realizes his shot is spoiled. He then counter-moves to you accordingly, saving E all the while, watching you, ready to translate that E into angle depending on which avoidance tactic you use giving him the critical initiative.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Krusty
Instant gratification? What, that they died? That's not too gratifying for a newbie. That they wasted all that ammo firing from 1k out? Rtb ammo is not very gratifying either.
If you have played the game a long time your idea of gratifying is distorted as is mine. I had the chance to watch my wife learn the game and got to re-live the 'newness' facor. For a noob, especially one in a fighter, gratification entails having some tangible effect on the enemy. The HO offers the best chance of this, and if they collide and take the enemy down in the process, more's the better, that is gratifying to them. The fact is if you have a steady hand and the target isn't moving you can HO/ram, any noob can do that, and if they can't at the outset, they quickly learn how from the plethora of others Ho'ing them.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Krusty
THEN you also add to the fact that HOs are rarely ever 1-way. Usually both planes sustain major damage. It's not an effective tactic, in my book. I still do it, because sometimes any tactic is better than no tactic. When I do it, however, I realize the risks and don't want any cheesy has-been code from a has-been game preventing me from doing it.
Seems that most WB/AH folks don't want this, and that only a few AW piners miss it. None of y'all stop and thought "Hrm... maybe the reason AW HOs were such a problem was the laser beam weapons..."
Which... lemme check -- yep! .... we don't have those in AH! It's not even remotely comparable. So don't compare AH to AW anymore, it gets tiring :)
When did I say the damage is one way? I appreciate that you like to HO, that is your choice. Answer me this though, would you be so eager to HO if you actually DIED?!? I think not, this is our problem with it. HO'ing has become an ENORMOUS part of the game, grotesquely disproportionate to the impact the tactic had in real air combat, conversely making other tactics and ACM manuevering generally far less important than they were in real air combat. That detracts seriously from AHs realism/immersion factor.
I never wanted to make this an AW vs. WB/AH thing but since you mentioned it I will say this. The quality of fights and player skill was far superior in AWFR than it is in AH, this is attributed almost entirely to people having to use ACM to fight in AWFR instead of copping out and using the HO in AH.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I never wanted to make this an AW vs. WB/AH thing but since you mentioned it I will say this. The quality of fights and player skill was far superior in AWFR than it is in AH, this is attributed almost entirely to people having to use ACM to fight in AWFR instead of copping out and using the HO in AH.
I disagree that you can attribute this almost entirely to the HO. Ask any former WB player (where HOs were as they are in AH) what they feel about the general skill level back in the day versus AH now. I'm guessing they'd come to the same conclusion as you despite the fact that HOs were always a fact of life for them in Warbirds.
I'm guessing that the reasons you see such a low general skill level are 1) lower costs to access the game meaning a larger pool of players, and 2) a high turnover among new players. If vets slowly leave the game and new players rarely stick around, you're going to find an arena filled with few vets and plenty of completely clueless players. That's always a recipe for poor fights regardless of whether HTC enables HOs or not.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I disagree that you can attribute this almost entirely to the HO. Ask any former WB player (where HOs were as they are in AH) what they feel about the general skill level back in the day versus AH now. I'm guessing they'd come to the same conclusion as you despite the fact that HOs were always a fact of life for them in Warbirds.
I'm guessing that the reasons you see such a low general skill level are 1) lower costs to access the game meaning a larger pool of players, and 2) a high turnover among new players. If vets slowly leave the game and new players rarely stick around, you're going to find an arena filled with few vets and plenty of completely clueless players. That's always a recipe for poor fights regardless of whether HTC enables HOs or not.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Possibly, without direct access to subscription data, I cannot substantiate that position, alot of people some assume are leaving are simply changing their names to regain anonymity. I know about 25 people who change their in-game name more than I change my underwear (monthly), so I am certain there are at least 3 times that many doing it I don't know or care about. I never played WBs so cannot speak of it, but in AWFR certainly we had the 'cream of the crop', RR had 90% of the noobs, so that could be a factor. Whether, HO's are symptomatic of a higher noob ratio or not doesn't change the fact that an over-abundance of HO'ing at the detriment to ACM manuevering has, in general, a deleterious affect on quality of gameplay experience in AH.
Zazen
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As I see it, there's two choices. One is to put in something artificial to reduce the effectiveness of the HO. And the other is to remove some of the artificial aspects in the game(play) which make HO such a viable tactic.
I'm 99.99% sure HT won't put in a reamdomizer to reduce head-on effectiveness.
So lets look at the second option ...
What if you removed range numbers completely? Just put in a +/- to say if it's coming or going. That would pull gunnery in closer and make lining up a HO shot tougher - to HO you'd need to commit to it and wait for the enemy plane to get close enough to ID the type to know it was in range before firing - and that reduces the firing window a ton for the HO.
-DoK
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Zazen13,
And the HOer's desperate, high G turn to try to get a gun solution on you as you avoid him doesn't waste gobs of energy?
Yeah right.
Further you can easily avoid most HOs without bleeding much, if any, E.
DoKGonZo,
I agree about the range numbers. I'd like to see them removed as well. Sadly, I don't think it'll happen.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Whether, HO's are symptomatic of a higher noob ratio or not doesn't change the fact that an over-abundance of HO'ing at the detriment to ACM manuevering has, in general, a deleterious affect on quality of gameplay experience in AH.
I think the emphasis on HOs is a bit of straw man. If the quality of the gameplay in AH has gone down, it's because players prefer to follow the path of least resistence. That includes timid flying, not pressing the fight, hording, picking, vulching, whatever. HOs might fall into that category as well, but they are not exclusive to it. They would be a symptom of a problem and not the problem itself.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Well, here's my personal ethos on a HO....
Of course I'll always try and get my nose pointed at what i assess to be the most serious threat.
I *will* deliberately attempt a HO when I spot a cherrypicker/ganger coming in on me while I am already engaged, even if that means giving up a chance at the original baddy.
I will also deliberately let loose a HO on one of them extend 5k and reverse weenies since that's about the only shot I'll get. A joust, if you will, the HO in the purest sense that we are talking about.
I'll also risk a HO against someone who is taking way too long to BNZ me too timidly. While I can eventually get him to run, if not kill him, the amount of time it takes gives gangers/cherrypickers time to arrive.
In a swirling furball, I'll shoot at whatever badguy crosses my gunsights at whatever angle.
In a 1 v 1 I won't generally go for the joust - i make exceptions for (occasioanlly) zekes and jugs and (always) perk planes. :aok
in a 1 vs 2-3 that started together, I won't generally try and joust, but front quarter shots do happen.
Scissors are one of my lifeblood ACM, along with immelmanns and yo-yo's.
The important distinction tho' is while a HO is a valid shot no matter the circumstances, it's the fact that I am capable of much more than mere jousting that makes the distinction between me and the average weenie. well, that and my arroga.. err confidence. :D
edit: HOs stopped bothering me long ago. It's more distressing to me seeing the general lack of even an attempt at some sort of ACM - that path of least resistence levi spoke of. It's slightly more distressing to see so many "so-called vets" after all their time in this game, *still* take that path of least resistence.
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Range numbers are necessary. You look at a cessna flying over your house at a few thousand feet and you can CLEARLY make out the details of it. More so on a bright and sunny day (which AH has in spades). Now look at something 2-3k away in AH [EDIT: Even 1k is barely more than a couple of pixels], it's a freaking 1-pixel dot. No comparison. Nor will there EVER be a comparison between eyesight and monitor resolution.
Icons and range is necessary to overcome the shortcomings of the game engine and the technology we all have available.
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Originally posted by Karnak
That is not an HO. If the other guy cannot get a gun solution on you it cannot be considered an HO.
Often on the 2nd or 3rd merge we are once again coming into a nose on nose situation. I try to avoid that, and often lose a wing. Next time I think I'll just go for the "high angle deflection shot" and when the bogey whines on 200, I'll just say the guys on the BBS said that it wasn't a HO.
Originally posted by Karnak
That is just poor planning on the rope. Why give the guy a shot when you can wait for him to stall and then shoot him in the ass?
Hey, I'm just doing what I see. Shane is a master at that move.
Originally posted by Karnak
I dunno, I see them all the time.
You seem to be puting anything vaguely frontal into the HO category. That is a common error.
Hardly vaguely frontal, those bogeys are trying to get their noses around and give you a full shot in the face. That othe night with the 110, I could have gone nose to nose after about a half dozen yo yo's, but I chose to try to avoid it. Had I gone nose to nose (not a HO by your standards) the 110 would have blown my hog to bits, and only taken minimal damage from the 50cal American pee shooters.
Again, the consenses is, get your nose around and give him a face full of cannons. I think I can learn to do that, expecially now that I have found out about the stall limiter. :)
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AKfoder, my offer remains, feel free to use /.join for a few sorties with me and see how I get things done before dying gloriously underwhelmed by mediocrity.
:)
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Other than my half-smartalek answer earlier, I figure I could clarify.....
First off, if a bullet would do damage, it should do damage IMO. HOs suck to die by, and I still do, but not nearly as often as I used to. Most HOs CAN BE AVOIDED. As I said before, it's gotten to where if someone goes for the HO first, I have more confidence in the fight (and if someone goes to HO, never fires a shot, and I notice a merge maneuver at the point of crossing, I know I'm screwed ;-) ).
But when it comes to artificially limiting damage done, how do we determine what is the "proper" cone? What if I have a La7 on my 6 in my 38J, and am able to rolling scissor him into a shot at his front quarter? Would it be fair to limit me when I outflew the other pilot? What about against a bomber, when I'm diving out of the sun which happens to be at his 12:30 horizontal, 1:00 high? How about that 47 I roped and was able to rudder nose down as he's reaching stall speed? These aren't cheap "HOs", these are legitimate maneuverings that IMO deserve reward, not limitation.
So other than limiting what would happen realisitically, what are some other ways we can limit HOs?
Personally, I love the idea of chaning the ranging system. We don't need to eliminate it entirely, but currently, we see ranges from 6k in... how about a plane indicator at 6k, and the plane TYPE change at 2k, but no range indicator, just a +/- sign such as...
-bishsymbol- SPIT +
(It means you're gaining on a Bishop Spitfire between 2k and 6k from you)
-rooksymbol- P51D -
(You're losing distance on a Rook P-51D closer than 2k from you)
It'd still give an idea of what you're up against, including the country, but eliminate the huge 2 line icons, eliminiate the specified distance, and make aiming more of a judging size to gunsight like it used to be, which may also make gunnery take more skill, including on bombers. Dunno if it would help against HOs, but definitely make aiming a little more..... "interesting" =)
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Krusty,
I think you are mistaking my comments about the range counter to be a general reference to icons. I did not mean it that way.
Keep the type icons as they are, keep the little chess piece icon and keep the +/- closure indicator, but dump the range indicator.
I really don't think it is needed with those other icon bits there. We can estimate range from the size of the aircraft just fine with out it.
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Ahhh. I did mis-read you. I'm not entirely sold. All we have from 8k on in to 1k is a single pixel. I think we need "far range" counters, but maybe stop at 1k (1.5k?) and just use +/- below that?
EDIT: Sorry for the hi-jack
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AW Had diffenet types of head on gunnery, durring most of the time I was playing AW HO hits were not thrown out. but a person got a 3 wingspan buble for hits from the rear and a 1 wingspan bubble from the front quater.
People also seem to forget how with no collisions in AW, you would could head on in AW flying right threw the apponent with no worries of impact.
When a change was made to the randomly throwing out hits was the end of my FW flying days. Not because I liked to head on, but it took a very valid tatic away. In those days I would use a pure head on when ever I was at a disavantage. I.E. just finished a fight, slow on dec. and a spit is comming in. You can be sure I would take the head on in that case, because it was my only option if the guy wanted to fly right at me, and I had no speed to turn or manuver with him. But even more important than the pure head on was how it totaly removed the rope a dope. Against a resonable aponent ropes and using the vertical became almost inposible, because everone would just wait, and point there nose at you knowing there chances of being hit was very low, even thow they were stalled was required no lead to shoot them.
Changeing the chances of head on hits would have drastic impact on game play. It would drasticly shift to the best turning planes, because speed zoom and climb rates impact in a dog fight would be reducused, do to the fact all you would have to do is point your plane toward the boomer, and his pass would be defeted.
I belive Zazen argument about death promoting more head on's is completly backwards . Lack of death is what promotes the long turn and burn furballs. If life was more important you would see a lot more hit and run tatics, as oposed to getting slow and turning, hence enabling the next guy to kill you.
Docs Idea of no ICons is not workable either. People want to fight, not fly around looking for a fight.No Icons has been tried, and very quicly becomes boring. The range ICON if anything gives more opertunity to do lead turns,judge peoples E stat correctly hence enableing manuvers to defete the headon. With out the range I belive we would see even more headons.
HiTech
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Krusty,
Hmmm, I guess it depends on the resolution you play at. I can generally make out what kind of fighter I am facing at 1000 yards and at 6000 yards I can tell how many engines it has. I play at 1600x1200.
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OK. Let's suppose range information is removed. Now I am in a semi furball situation. I have to make a multivariant decision as to which enemy to attack and which are threats to me. How do I make that decision when 90% of the enemy appear to me in the form of a single pixel? From a single pixel I cannot tell how close they are or how soon they will be on me.
Also, I do not at all see how removing range information will in anyway affect the prevelance of head on attacks.
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Originally posted by 715
OK. Let's suppose range information is removed. Now I am in a semi furball situation. I have to make a multivariant decision as to which enemy to attack and which are threats to me. How do I make that decision when 90% of the enemy appear to me in the form of a single pixel?
Why would you have the icons turned off?
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re-read what he actually wrote.
:aok
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Originally posted by Shane
AKfoder, my offer remains, feel free to use /.join for a few sorties with me and see how I get things done before dying gloriously underwhelmed by mediocrity.
:)
And I certainly hope to take you up on that kind offer. My statement that you are a master at that move was not meant to be a slam.
I believe that if a game is coded to be played in a certain way, then you can (and should) play it that way.
If HT wants to let us vulch a plane with wheels on the runway, he codes it that way. If he wants to stop that, then you would be bullet proof as long as you are wheels on the deck. Etc Etc.
I am in Kodiak AK this week, and can't play the game due to work. Hope to be back this week end :)
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I didn't say "no icons" ... I said "no range numbers." You obviously need icons to find a fight. The people who saddle up for kills at less than D400 won't be affected that much by no range numbers. The people who need the range numbers to know when to start spewing lead at D800 on the HO will have a tougher time.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Zazen13,
And the HOer's desperate, high G turn to try to get a gun solution on you as you avoid him doesn't waste gobs of energy?
Yeah right.
I never see HO'ers doing this, to take a HO shot even against a manuevering target is still a low deflection forward quarter shot, very little manuevering is required, nothing the evader does will remove him from the HOers forward quarter, therefore no reason to blow energy. Most 'professional Hoers can tell even before they start shooting whether they have a viable shooting opportunity or not. So, either they are HO'ing and hitting you or they are not but instead conserving E, watching what you are doing ready to exchange their E for an angle on you or egressing for a reset another joust pass.
Zazen
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if you want no range data, simply cycle thru icons to "show friendly only"
of course you won't get plane type id either, but hey, you get close enough and it won't matter what type.
as much as we fly around in a "virtual" 3-d space, it's still visually 2-d.
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Hi
I think what that needs fixing is the player base. In AW and WB's we had older players. This was in the days before everyone was gaming online. If you was like me... When I first started play AW I was reading anything and everything I was able to get my hands on about ACM. Todays players aren't coming from that type of background. They are guys who started their online gaming with "Playstations & Xboxes". All they understand is Kill, kill, kill.... and if they die... poof they are right back in the game... no penalty for death. So they have no reason to go out and try to learn about this thing called "ACM".
One of the things I loved about WW2OL (and sometimes hated) was there was a penalty for dieing... if you didn't get your ride back to base, it was gone for hours. OK, the air combat in WW2OL sucks but.... they do understand ACM over there. So you don't see many going head to head or doing suicidal low level bomb runs.
This is how I would fix the gameplay in AH... a penalty for dieing. All but a starter set of planes, bombers and GV get a perk cost. The free rides are the ( and I do not think of them this way) low end planes/GV... ie Spit 1, 109E, P40B, etc. Samething for the bombers. We would have to work out the perk cost for each AC/GV. Now to be fair all new players get xxx number of free perk points so they can fly all the AC too. The other thing I would do is reset the perk points at the start of each campaign to a starting number of points.... same as a new player. So if you have 10,000 perk points and fly off in Me262 any time you feel like it not caring if you RTb or not, in my system may not be able to all the time. You will have to work for the perk points.....
But on the other side of the coin... if the only thing you know how to do is HO in an La-7 or Dive bomb B-17's your are going to run out perk points fast....
I think this will force players into learning ACM, he how has a reason to do so.... because just going head to head is no longer "safe" to do.... "I need to kill, to get more perks, but I am low on points so I need to land the kills too"
Also it will change gameplay in the MA too. How we attack bases will change... more missions, more teamwork. Going alone into a CAPPED base to pork something will have cost too. And it will change how the furballers play too. With more missions there, hopefully will be more larger furballs... but here is going to be that voice in the back of the furballers head... saying as he dives in... "How am I going to get out that %%$## mess alive?".
With a system like this where you have a penalty for dieing hopefully will force players into think about ACM and learning it. With a penalty system something like this may make AH and the MA a better place to play. Anything would be better, as playing AH as things are right now is starting to suck and getting old fast.
CAVALRY
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Limiting planes like you suggest would drive a lot of players away. I dare say the majority of the current crop couldn't get by without the '44 era uber planes.
However, I could see every plane being worth a certain amount of negative perks when you get it blown out from under you. So the HO'er who flies his La-7 until he dies every time will pretty much always have a 0 perk balance - any points he may gain from HO'ing (or pork-running) will be lost when his plane goes boom.
So lets say a CHog is 8 perks to buy and 0 perks if shot down (since you already "paid" for it). An La-7 would be worth 0 points to buy but maybe 5 points if it gets shot down. So you could always fly it, but if you never land any kills you'll drain whatever perks you got pretty quick. Ditto for sewercide NOE bomber types.
Maybe combine this with making planes like the P51D and La-7 and D9 (if/when it gets fixed) worth 1 or 2 perks to buy.
-DoK
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Often on the 2nd or 3rd merge we are once again coming into a nose on nose situation. I try to avoid that, and often lose a wing. Next time I think I'll just go for the "high angle deflection shot" and when the bogey whines on 200, I'll just say the guys on the BBS said that it wasn't a HO.
If you get a head-on after head-on situation you are doing something wrong ;)
No offence but you probarly don't try the tricks in the book or fly on feeling, maybe you're just trying the immelman over and over again or something similair?
Let me know if you wanna go to DA some day :)
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CAV,
That wouldn't work. Imagine logging on to AH for the first time and taking a Spit I or P-40 because they are famous and trying to learn how to fly and fight in a world of La-7s, Spitfire Mk XVIs and Ki-84s. Almost nobody would subscribe after their two week trial was over. For us vets clubbing newbies in their La-7s is easy enough, imagine forcing them into P-40Bs. They'd be utterly helpless.
DoKGonZo,
That is an interesting idea and one of those incredibly rare ones I have not seen before. I wonder what effect it would have? It might make people irritatingly prone to flying La-7s, Typhoons and Fw190D-9s and very timidly at that.
Wilbus,
I want to go to the DA and learn. I have recently started getting back into AH and boy do I have some rust to blow off. I used to manage 2.5-3/1 K/D in the Mossie and now I am having trouble getting above 1.5/1 in the Spit VIII.
Also, I was not joking earlier when I said I have no problem dodging the HO, but I screw it up after that.
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"I dare say the majority of the current crop couldn't get by without the '44 era uber planes."
Replace "couldn't" with "wouldn't" and it might be more accurate. I for one have utterly no interest in any except 1 specific unit. I think many people like later-model planes in general just because they're more fun to fly and fight in since they can do more and sustain more maneuvers. Early-war planes fighting is like watching old people dance--it's painfully slow and not much fun.
Remember that even AW in its heyday was fundamentally a mid/late 1944 game. It was still P-38J's and FW-190A-8's and Spit 9's and P-51's and such. The AH MA represents a marginally later period, but not much.
Speaking of ICONS, remember how the ICONS in AW were off to the side? You could either watch the other guy's plane, or watch the ICON, but not both. The ICON was something you would just glance at now and then, not follow around like in AH.
J_A_B
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Limiting planes like you suggest would drive a lot of players away. I dare say the majority of the current crop couldn't get by without the '44 era uber planes.
What I was thinking, was you start out each campaign with a few 100 perk points. So they aren't limited, they get to fly anything they want... to start. But if they do not play smart, the number of perks gets lower... maybe to the point of only having the free planes, till they get more points. At some point they are going to.. hopefully.. gets a clue that the HO isn't the best air to air tactic to be using all the time. As far driving player away... if they have, that love for the old War planes, that many the older player have they may take the time to understand ACM & air combat. And if they are not that type of player.... Do we want them around anyway?
Having said that we in AH need to be nicer to the new players. Take them under our wings show them how to play. The other thing that is needed in AH is a better training system. In the other sims there was trainers that had classes a few times each week. Well in AW and FA there was, because I went to them.... I don't remember if WB had that or not and I do not recall any thing like that in AH.
CAVALRY
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I think as long as the points lost for losing a non-perked plane was pretty low it wouldn't make people too timid. They could still fly pretty much what they can now, they just end up perkless because they're losing planes so fast.
What'd be interesting from a psychological angle is what effect this has given how rare it is to see perked planes to start with. You're basically removing points from something that most players rearely spend to begin with.
And there are variations. Like suppose the first plane you lose costs you 0 perks, if your next flight you get shot down again it costs 2 perks for that plane, then 4, then 6. If you're a pork-runner or ho-beast who dies every flight, all of a sudden it's costing you 20 perks per mission. If you land a mission ("landing" means at least landing with an assist or blow up an enemy building) that resets the penalty counter to 0.
Once your perk balance hits zero, of course, you may as well just keep dying because there's nothing to lose. OK ... so what if we then say you need at least 10 perks to be "authorized" to fly the La-7, P51D, etc. - they don't cost you anything to fly, but you need a minimum balance to be authorized by the crew chief to take his plane up. Now there's an incentive to maintain some level of survivability to be able to keep flying the uberplanes.
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I remember the old AW tracking cons. They also made it easier to sneak up on folks cuz there wasn't that neon text to warn them.
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I wonder what the average player's perk bank looks like?
Never having been a 10 hours a day type of player I have a mere 1700 or so fighter perks. Maintaining a certain minimum of perks is no problem at all for me. In order for a reserve limit to have any effect on me it would either have to be prohibitively high or perks would have to get zeroed at the start of each tour.
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What'd be interesting from a psychological angle is what effect this has given how rare it is to see perked planes to start with. You're basically removing points from something that most players rearely spend to begin with.
What I was thinking was add more perk planes to the list, Ok maybe not down to just the 41/42 plane set being free, but a larger perk plane list. Also reset the points at the start of each campaign, or maybe when the map is won and reset. This way newbie and vets start the war with the same number of points to fight with...
CAVALRY
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I believe that if a game is coded to be played in a certain way, then you can (and should) play it that way.
...maybe, but HOin isn't going to make the game all that much more fun for ya because you'll stil get killed too often by them.
I'm not saying this to be a wiseguy, but it sounds to me its more about the way you fly than the HOs being a problem. I'm no "pro" by any means, but after flying here awhile I ran into a road block of sorts. I went at each fight much the same way...same merge everything. Some times it worked, most times it didn't :)
The trick is trying different things. In an earlier post you said you merged and pulled up into a vert loop, and end up with another HO merge. What if as your pulling up into your loop you watch to see what the enemy is doing, see he's looping too, you break out of your loop and start a spiral climb under the enemy, causing him to tighten his loop burning more "E", or he never sees it because he's blacked out pulling big G's to get around first.
...maybe you see he's following your maneuver in a loop, so you ease off the loop going for more alt letting your enemy pull a tighter loop, this giving you alt and most likely more "E". Continuing the fight from on top makes the fight yours.... unless you make a mistake :)
Avoiding the HO isn't that tough... nose down and either left or right rudder 2k, at about 1k out roll a bit and rudder the other way. Minimum loss of "E", good chance to get out of the way, or pulling a lead turn from 5-6k out like Morph said giving them a quartering angle instead of head on.
Learning to avoid the HO in the end will make the game much more fun, and make you a better fighter. Don't go to the dark side and HO !!
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As so many old sticks have so elagantly put it:
LEAD TURN LEAD TURN LEAD TURN
Try to manuever slightly lower vs dweeb1 as a HO attempt becomes apparent at med range. (3-4k)
As he tries to get "guns on nose" try to maintain 10-15deg offset vert/horiz plane with the bogy in the left quadrant.
Setup for a left turn at the merge, most single prop aircraft have a better roll rate left due to engine torque.
Maintain nose offset down/right to deny the face shot.
Maintain speed control w/ throttle/pitch inputs.
You want to execute your lead turn at your aircraft's best cornering speed.
Planes "rate their nose" best at a unique speed for each type of aircraft.
"Rate" refers to degrees of turn rate per sec your nose moves in the turn.
You must know what your plane's best corner speed is beforehand and execute your lead turn at that speed.
BTW, I hardly ever flat lead turn.
Slightly negative AOA helps maintain your energy thru the turn. (slightly pitch down)
If I can haul my nose around at 35deg/sec and the bogie is only pulling 30deg/sec then I am gaining angles that eventually will turn into a gun solution.
Rate kills.
When range ~=1.0K begin your best lead turn below him as he passes above.
Maintain visual in your views as he passes.
Ride the "blackout tunnel" thru the turn while maintaining best cornering speed.
Now the goal is to put your lift vector on his noggin. (Pure Pursuit)
Try to fly your gun sight to his aircraft while maintaining your best turn rate with throttle/wep.
After this it depends on what dweeb1 does.
You will have to adjust your turns (lead,pure,lag pursuit) based on how he defends in order to manuever to a guns solution.
Most of the time he has now expended the full measure of his ACM skills with his HO attempt and is now flying around with a big question mark over his cockpit wondering how you "cheated" and got around on his six so quick.
Also watch for him to try to lead turn at the merge.
If he does, he's not a dweeb.
Your in luck...your in for a fight. :)
Regards
Sun
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what ^^^^^ said.
:aok
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Originally posted by Karnak
I wonder what the average player's perk bank looks like?
Never having been a 10 hours a day type of player I have a mere 1700 or so fighter perks. Maintaining a certain minimum of perks is no problem at all for me. In order for a reserve limit to have any effect on me it would either have to be prohibitively high or perks would have to get zeroed at the start of each tour.
I hardly ever fly perk planes, you will find me in A6M's FM2's YAK's and things of that sort and if I have to take up an LA it will be the 5 I can count on my fingers the times i've flown the LA7 in AH1 and AH2 combined.
I find that yes the perk planes are fast but they arn't that fun for me, I like to manuver out of the way and suck people in untill I can get them slow enough and hang on their tail untill I get that killing shot with the few rounds I have in my early war ride and still have enough ammo to go for that #2 kill and even the 3rd one if I'm lucky. I have had some of the most heart pounding combat in these (low end planes) and love evry second of it.
That said after loseing the 2 or 300 fighter perks last night from my 262 and tempest I now stand at 3685 fighter perks 4000 some odd bomber perks and 2000 some odd Vehicle perks..... Sad aint it. :aok
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Originally posted by Karnak
Why would you have the icons turned off?
I meant with the range info missing like you suggested in your post. Obviously the icon needs to be there to tell friend from enemy. I meant you need the range info as well to judge your situation (which is also what hitech said in his message which posted while I was editing mine).
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Thanks for all the great replies :)
Especially Sundowner's detailed suggestion, and Fugitive.
I am lurking on the thread reading every word.
Good stuff. :aok
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Originally posted by Sundowner
As so many old sticks have so elagantly put it:
Maintain speed control w/ throttle/pitch inputs.
You want to execute your lead turn at your aircraft's best cornering speed.
Planes "rate their nose" best at a unique speed for each type of aircraft.
"Rate" refers to degrees of turn rate per sec your nose moves in the turn.
You must know what your plane's best corner speed is beforehand and execute your lead turn at that speed.
BTW, I hardly ever flat lead turn.
Slightly negative AOA helps maintain your energy thru the turn. (slightly pitch down)
If I can haul my nose around at 35deg/sec and the bogie is only pulling 30deg/sec then I am gaining angles that eventually will turn into a gun solution.
Most of this is familiar, but you've got me wondering with that last part. You can get 35 deg/sec with a negative AOA?
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Thanks Sundowner, that was beautiful. Initial assessment and planning accounts for less than squat in any engagement... The rest is reactionary and instinctive maneuvering. React to the E, can't think about it.
Also watch for him to try to lead turn at the merge.
If he does, he's not a dweeb.
Your in luck...your in for a fight.
[/b]
hehehe, it may be a fun fight, or you could be evil and rope the rope the bastard.
Dont slow for the lead turn, firewall it, mirror his attempt to get under the nose, blow through and go vertical. They'll hit their nifty max DPS and whip their nose around with E to spare. If they kept track of you through the turn, they may decide to take a shot and risk the rope. It's very tempting to follow the other guy up with .50s, or hispandos, whatever. It comes down to a little luck and some good control management at the top. If you played him right, you'll have a decent shot whilst thy foe stalleth.
It's especially satisfying when the other guy is Shane and you are both D11s. :D
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quote- Originally posted by Sundowner
As so many old sticks have so elagantly put it:
snip~~~~
Slightly negative AOA helps maintain your energy thru the turn. (slightly pitch down)
If I can haul my nose around at 35deg/sec and the bogie is only pulling 30deg/sec then I am gaining angles that eventually will turn into a gun solution.
Originally posted by Sandman
Most of this is familiar, but you've got me wondering with that last part. You can get 35 deg/sec with a negative AOA?
Sundowner was using a hypothetical situation/example when he said him=35 DPS vs opponents 30 DPS
Sundowner, well said! ;)
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Having said that we in AH need to be nicer to the new players. Take them under our wings show them how to play. The other thing that is needed in AH is a better training system. In the other sims there was trainers that had classes a few times each week. Well in AW and FA there was, because I went to them.... I don't remember if WB had that or not and I do not recall any thing like that in AH.
There is a quite good trainers system in AH I believe but maybe it should be advertised more?
One thing, anyone can sign up inside of AH and take a newbie under his/her wings.
New accounters get the option to become cadets.
Under Roster there is "Trainer"". Click it and you see cadets and get the option to help them. If they sign up after their two weeks and give you credit for helping them out you recieve 10 dollars from HTC (or it used to be like that atleast).
More then this there are dedicated trainers whom can easily, very easily be found on the froums, specially the HELP AND TRAINING (surprise? :D ) forum.
I think the problem lies more in the fact that new people, or people in general never bother asking for help.
If they just sit there nothing will happen, if they spend five minutes and post on the forums asking for help they will get it.
Karnak sure thing! Mail me at "rasmus_friluft@yahoo.se"
Shoot me a mail and let me know what times you can fly and we'll see if I can make those times aswell.
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Originally posted by CAV
What I was thinking was add more perk planes to the list, Ok maybe not down to just the 41/42 plane set being free, but a larger perk plane list. Also reset the points at the start of each campaign, or maybe when the map is won and reset. This way newbie and vets start the war with the same number of points to fight with...
This suggestion came up before. The purpose was to shift the mainstray of planes to 1943 era, but still have non-negligible 1944/5 pupolation through VERY light perking. It was refered to as the "perk agenda" by Kweassa iirc.
Though I personally liked it, the majority of players hated it. Especially those who fly only La7, P51D, 190D9 and 109G10/K4 and refused to fly the La5, P51B, 190A8, 109G6 occasionally.
I still think this is a very good idea and even better now that we have the plane lines redone and the icon system changed (no more "kill me" tag at 6k out). As it is now, perks are useless, unless you have a temp/spit14/F4U4/152 fetish. An La7 pilot couldn't care less about them.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
This suggestion came up before. The purpose was to shift the mainstray of planes to 1943 era, but still have non-negligible 1944/5 pupolation through VERY light perking. It was refered to as the "perk agenda" by Kweassa iirc.
Though I personally liked it, the majority of players hated it. Especially those who fly only La7, P51D, 190D9 and 109G10/K4 and refused to fly the La5, P51B, 190A8, 109G6 occasionally.
I still think this is a very good idea and even better now that we have the plane lines redone and the icon system changed (no more "kill me" tag at 6k out). As it is now, perks are useless, unless you have a temp/spit14/F4U4/152 fetish. An La7 pilot couldn't care less about them.
Bozon
You gave me an idea ...
What about changing icon range depending of the plane ?
Like for the fw190 :
- 6k for the D9
- 5k for the A8
- 4K for the A5
or
- 6k for the spitXIV
- 5k for the spitVIII/IX/XVI
- 4K for the spit V/seafire
- 3K for the spit Ia
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Originally posted by Sandman
Most of this is familiar, but you've got me wondering with that last part. You can get 35 deg/sec with a negative AOA?
Sorry for any confusion, I mearly picked a random rate of turn figure out of the air to illustrate how a higher turn rate gains angles over a lower enemy turn rate.
Your "nose rate" will vary and is a variable from plane to plane.
Regards
Sun
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Okay... I'm still trying to wrap my head around turning with a negative AOA regardless of the deg/sec.
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I enjoy winning HO's against La7's, 110's, Spit's etc with a Peeeeeeeeeeeee38J. I have learned the secret to HO'ing and living. No I will not share it. I rarely even take damage anymore.
Keep the easiest killz coming.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I have learned the secret to HO'ing and living. No I will not share it. I rarely even take damage anymore.
Of course you have! (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97161)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Karnak
I wonder what the average player's perk bank looks like?
.
HTs perk bonus was more that I have ever got in fighters. Admitedly, I don't spend that much time in fighters.
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We just got a perk bonus?
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Originally posted by Octavius
quote:Also watch for him to try to lead turn at the merge.
If he does, he's not a dweeb.
Your in luck...your in for a fight.
hehehe, it may be a fun fight, or you could be evil and rope the rope the bastard.
Dont slow for the lead turn, firewall it, mirror his attempt to get under the nose, blow through and go vertical. They'll hit their nifty max DPS and whip their nose around with E to spare. If they kept track of you through the turn, they may decide to take a shot and risk the rope. It's very tempting to follow the other guy up with .50s, or hispandos, whatever. It comes down to a little luck and some good control management at the top. If you played him right, you'll have a decent shot whilst thy foe stalleth.
It's especially satisfying when the other guy is Shane and you are both D11s. :D [/B]
Heheh Octavius,
"It comes down to a little luck and some good control management at the top.If you played him right, you'll have a decent shot whilst thy foe stalleth." is dead on. :)
I've found that right here, if you can afford the E, adding a slow left turn while watching 6 view can keep you out of his guns solution hopefully as he drops below his "over the top" speed.
"Out of plane" lift vectors help burn his E in the climb as he follows you up.
This works really well Vs P-38s as it's best "nose rate" configuration seems to be "nose low turns".
If you pull high E spiral climbs (nose high turns) with flaps it's the worst situation for him to maintain E with you.
Please dont try this P-38 Vs P-38 as I will not be held responsible for you getting your knickers ripped. ;)
After reading your post, now I gotta go listen to "Top Gun" real loud.
Regards
Sun
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Originally posted by Sandman
Okay... I'm still trying to wrap my head around turning with a negative AOA regardless of the deg/sec.
What I mean is a "nose low" turn.
This can be a very low negative pitch angle.
You wont be able to read the HSI attitude for -.5 deg pitch but you can use the climb/dive needle to see a pitch that small. (Needle drives to "dive")
Nose low turns help to preserve/create air speed to help maintain your plane's best turn speed thereby maintaining your best "nose rate" in the turn.
But not so much as you add more distance to your turn.
The goal is to combine descent+throttle+WEP to help sustain speed through the turn.
This is not to mean that every time you do a lead turn you have full power selected.
If my plane's best "corner speed" is 250mph I may have to bleed speed in the turn to get there.
Still I got in the habit of "nose low" lead turns. I only to have to "meter" in throttle for my target speed.
If I find I need full power with nose low to stay near my best corner speed Im allready slightly nose low.
Btw, in a lead turn with a -.5 deg pitch componant, roll angle will be -89.5deg. (Climb/Dive indicator drives to "Dive")
A pure flat plane turn, roll angle = 90deg. (Climb/Dive indicator =0)
A climbing turn with +.5 deg pitch-- roll angle = 89.5 (Climb/Dive indicator drives to "Climb")
Beware, some plane's absolute best corner speed can be quite low. You may not feel comfortable dropping to that low of a speed/E state at the merge.
A happy combination of good "nose rate" AND good E retention (speed) is what I go for.
This combination may or may not be at my planes absolute best corner speed.
Regards
Sun