Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on November 30, 2005, 01:53:14 PM
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Hi All,
Sorry if you've already read this, its the story of Jeff Starr's final testimony.
Many who do read it will no doubt see statements like this:
"It may seem confusing why we are in Iraq, it's not to me. I'm here helping these people, so that they can live the way we live. Not have to worry about tyrants or vicious dictators. To do what they want with their lives. To me that is why I died. Others have died for my freedom, now this is my mark."
and find them to be yet another example of "American Naivete" in reducing a conflict to black and white, right and wrong, and then deciding which side you are on and endeavoring to fight until you have prevailed.
In responding to those critics of the "black and white" mentality, I am reminded of something a mentor of mine, James Boice once wrote:
"Great men are never really complicated. The complicated people are the weak ones, beset by dozens of conflicting causes and motives, never quite knowing how to get it all together. The see one side of the issue, but they also see the other side. They see the advantage of one course of action, but they recognize that it might be better to do something else. Great men are not like this. They are not naive. They know that issues are sometimes complicated and that there are often different paths that can be taken, but they see the important cause and the best path and then follow it consistently."
Lest we forget it was similar "naive Americans" who stormed Omaha beach and landed on countless little pieces of hell in the pacific... Clear vision and unflinching determination are the strength of this nation. Ambiguous thinking and a failure to persevere - if they are allowed to prevail - may well be its undoing.
Anyway, enough from me, here is the original story: A Marine's Last Words (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,77279,00.html?ESRC=marine.nl)
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Excellent piece! Thanks for sharing this.
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Lets finish the mission. Complete the job. Lets stay the course...too many have sacrificed now. There is no sunk cost. There is only failure or success.
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Hi Rip,
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Excellent piece! Thanks for sharing this.
NP, just heard that El Presidente quoted from Starr's letter today in a speech at the Naval Academy.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Rip,
NP, just heard that El Presidente quoted from Starr's letter today in a speech at the Naval Academy.
- SEAGOON
I've been following this story on http://www.michellemalkin.com/ She's got a pretty good story on him: http://michellemalkin.com/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=1&search=starr
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What Bush said:
"After he died, a letter was found on his laptop computer. Here's what he wrote, he said, "f you're reading this, then I've died in Iraq. I don't regret going. Everybody dies, but few get to do it for something as important as freedom."
What Bush left out: (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/international/middleeast/26deaths.html?ex=1133499600&en=e1515568f09d37ab&ei=5070&hp)
"Another member of the 1/5, Cpl. Jeffrey B. Starr, rejected a $24,000 bonus to re-enlist. Corporal Starr believed strongly in the war, his father said, but was tired of the harsh life and nearness of death in Iraq. So he enrolled at Everett Community College near his parents' home in Snohomish, Wash., planning to study psychology after his enlistment ended in August.
But he died in a firefight in Ramadi on April 30 during his third tour in Iraq. He was 22.
Sifting through Corporal Starr's laptop computer after his death, his father found a letter to be delivered to the marine's girlfriend. "I kind of predicted this," Corporal Starr wrote of his own death. "A third time just seemed like I'm pushing my chances."
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Twenty two years old, and on his 3rd tour. He had had it. He wanted out.
Not because he didn't believe in the war but because, just maybe, the 101st Fighting Keyboarders back at home found life too comfy to have to go and replace his arse.
3 tours and a 4th requested. Jesious. And Bush uses him to get everyone all patriotic about things?
Hey, if this kid's death gives you the warm and fuzzies, and gets you all star spangled bannery-eyed... well I guess it wasn't for nothing. (I'll keep my eye on the recruitment levels in the next month, prepared to be utterly un-shocked by the surge of enlistment that never materializes.)
Fight on, brave warriors.
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You're wrong, Nash.
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That's helpful.
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Which would be more helpful, an honest argument, or the usual forum BS?
I'm up for the former in exchange for some photoshop info.
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Originally posted by Nash
What Bush said:
"After he died, a letter was found on his laptop computer. Here's what he wrote, he said, "f you're reading this, then I've died in Iraq. I don't regret going. Everybody dies, but few get to do it for something as important as freedom."
What Bush left out: (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/international/middleeast/26deaths.html?ex=1133499600&en=e1515568f09d37ab&ei=5070&hp)
"Another member of the 1/5, Cpl. Jeffrey B. Starr, rejected a $24,000 bonus to re-enlist. Corporal Starr believed strongly in the war, his father said, but was tired of the harsh life and nearness of death in Iraq. So he enrolled at Everett Community College near his parents' home in Snohomish, Wash., planning to study psychology after his enlistment ended in August.
But he died in a firefight in Ramadi on April 30 during his third tour in Iraq. He was 22.
Sifting through Corporal Starr's laptop computer after his death, his father found a letter to be delivered to the marine's girlfriend. "I kind of predicted this," Corporal Starr wrote of his own death. "A third time just seemed like I'm pushing my chances."
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Twenty two years old, and on his 3rd tour. He had had it. He wanted out.
Not because he didn't believe in the war but because, just maybe, the 101st Fighting Keyboarders back at home found life too comfy to have to go and replace his arse.
3 tours and a 4th requested. Jesious. And Bush uses him to get everyone all patriotic about things?
Hey, if this kid's death gives you the warm and fuzzies, and gets you all star spangled bannery-eyed... well I guess it wasn't for nothing. (I'll keep my eye on the recruitment levels in the next month, prepared to be utterly un-shocked by the surge of enlistment that never materializes.)
Fight on, brave warriors.
This coming from a Canadian who isn't serving, who's country isn't fighting to help out there. Jesus Nash does everything have to be an ugly argument with you?
here's some of the rest of his letter:
"Obviously if you are reading this then I have died in Iraq. I kind of predicted this, that is why I'm writing this in November. A third time just seemed like I'm pushing my chances. I don't regret going, everybody dies but few get to do it for something as important as freedom. It may seem confusing why we are in Iraq, it's not to me. I'm here helping these people, so that they can live the way we live. Not have to worry about tyrants or vicious dictators. To do what they want with their lives. To me that is why I died. Others have died for my freedom, now this is my mark."
It's pretty bad that your life sucks so much that you have to flame in a post such as this. I bet the guy would have been honored to be mentioned in memorium by the CIC. Maybe you should read what his uncle had to say about him http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050603/news_lz1e3letters.html
maybe you could be even more of an bellybutton and post your comments here:
http://www.fallenheroesmemorial.com/oif/profiles/starrjeffreyb.html
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Heh. It's no flame.
Sorry to piss on your parade, or whatever. I know you boys are reduced to eking them out wherever you can find one of the suckers nowadays.
I kind of understand.
Still... What? You want me to play make-believe with you?
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Moot - don't worry about it. What can I help ya with?
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Originally posted by Nash
Heh. It's no flame.
Sorry to piss on your parade, or whatever. I know you boys are reduced to eking them out wherever you can find one of the suckers nowadays.
I kind of understand.
Still... What? You want me to play make-believe with you?
By suckers you are reffering to Cpl Starr? Pretty blatent huh Nash. The guy that volunteered and went 3 times out of some sort of personal drive is a sucker to you?
Did you not have a good time today sitting at the airport spitting on Vets or something?
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lol, "suckers" was referring to "parade".
Subject/predicate.
Nice dig job to find some kind of moral outrage.
Much like the inspiration you feed off of in this kid's death.
You'll look anywhere, long and hard, no matter how senseless, for an affirmation of something you already believe to be true.
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Originally posted by Nash
Btw, you're being quite rude. You realize that, right?
I take it back then, I missunderstood you. Usually a subject and predicate are in the same sentence. What you don't seem to realize is that I am a Marine. When I hear about guys like this it hurts me and gives me pride all in the same sense. To have you come in here with nothing nice to say "pissin on the parade" as yousay is more than "quite rude"
being called the "101st keyboarders" when many of us have served is "quite rude".
Flame on Nash and use mouth wash.....tis the flu season.
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I do realize that you've served. I know that.
But lets be honest here, you're tending to take a generality (a vast segment of the American population who is both eligible and unwilling to serve, but who nevertheless shouts down anyone who doesn't support it in words, as they are only willing to go as far as) and make it personal.
This kid died on his 3rd tour, turning down a fourth.
So I disagree with you... It is NOT inspirational. It speaks to something very wrong.
I aint knockin' the kid, as you seem to think. I just think you're seriously wrong in how you've chosen to internalize his death, and spit him back out in the form of a rallying cry.
It's disgusting to me.
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in a sense nash you could say we 101st keyboarders are fighting an important war back home......
I dont mind thrashing up against folks that have no other useful value, make no other worthwhile contribution -besides tearing down the current global reality with no realistic suggestion for a better one, and usually just because they identify Bush with a garden plant, or a chimp.
Sure, Ill stick up for those folks in uniform because someone has to fight back home on the intertardnet against the folks who only want to isolate and withdrawl from a cruel world, to allow an even more brutal and cruel world to develope around them and threaten all -while our young men and women fight a bloody brutal campaign against total ignorqant hatred and religious zealotry.
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^
What a sacrifice. You should be proud.
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Originally posted by Nash
^
What a sacrifice. You should be proud.
OK I'll write that down:
Liberal rules:
221. Bush is not allowed to use the deaths of our nations heros, even if they were patriotic and inspirational, in a patriotic and inspirational speech.
222. It is perfectly acceptable for Canadians to do very little to help out with the security of the world and fight against Islamo facism while criticising others for not helping out the security of the world and the fight against Islamo facism.
log updated nash....happy spitting.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Liberal rules:
221.
Whoa... whoa right there pal. I'm going to have to see rules 1 through 220 before we continue. ;)
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"Liberal rules" Blah blah blah......
Watch O'Reilly much?
Who speaks like that?
"221. Bush is not allowed to use the deaths of our nations heros, even if they were patriotic and inspirational, in a patriotic and inspirational speech."
He cherry picked even this kid's story. That's what I'm saying. The reality that I don't find to be inspiring is the reality that he left out. It's obviously jarred you.
"222. It is perfectly acceptable for Canadians to do very little to help out with the security of the world and fight against Islamo facism while criticising others for not helping out the security of the world and the fight against Islamo facism. "
Don't blame us because we're beautiful. (read: not getting sucked in)
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Well, before this thread goes further south, let's stop and think of the poor kid who lost his life, not the politics of the war, there are plenty of other threads for that
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Btw, Tillman thought Iraq was a joke, and his death to friendly fire was a shameful cover-up.
Let's not even get into the heroism of Jessica....
Who else? What other heroes? This kid?
This kid who wanted OUT?!
There's a pattern here, man.
You probably won't find it in your little rule book.
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The guy wanted it to be known that he was fighting for something he believed in and for something that he felt was worth dying for, that's all. He served our country and is a hero in my book.
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Originally posted by NUKE
The guy wanted it to be known that he was fighting for something he believed in and for something that he felt was worth dying for, that's all.
Hiostory is full of people like that; some thought their country needed Lebensraum and some thought communism was the way to the better future.
Oh well; there's still North-Korea, Libya, Iran, Syria, Cuba, half of the african countries and some Ex-soviet union countries having dictators oppressing their people so there will be plenty of chances for you and your childrens to die abroad and get your names in memorial.
I bet some even have (or had) WMDs and are also producing oil.
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Originally posted by Staga
Hiostory is full of people like that; some thought their country needed Lebensraum and some thought communism was the way to the better future.
Oh well; there's still North-Korea, Libya, Iran, Syria, Cuba, half of the african countries and some Ex-soviet union countries having dictators oppressing their people so there will be plenty of chances for you and your childrens to die abroad and get your names in memorial.
I bet some even have (or had) WMDs and are also producing oil.
America is evil, just like all your other examples.
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PM'ed you, Nash.
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"The complicated people are the weak ones, beset by dozens of conflicting causes and motives, never quite knowing how to get it all together. The see one side of the issue, but they also see the other side. They see the advantage of one course of action, but they recognize that it might be better to do something else. "
truer words were never spoken... we need to keep them in mind when reading nash and his ilks posts.
and..nash... instead of coming here and badmouthing us Americans for making the wrong choice... why aren't you on a canadian BB telling them every day what a great choice doing nothing was? Accent the positive... ya know?
plus... you would have some real stake in what you told your fellow canadians.. You would even get to vote and stuff.
lazs
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staga... just curious... are you suggesting that the marine in question was the same as the people who thought communism and such was right for their country? He wants choice for the people he is fighting for... he want's them to be able to choose... how can that be wrong? how can more freedom ever be wrong in todays world?
lazs
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Help me out here....What was the reason for invading Iraq?
How is this comparable to Omaha Beach?
I don't like it when flag waving is used to distract us and intended to take our eye of the ball. It diminishes the sacrifices that were made and my own patriotism as well. Plus it insults my intelligence.
Fundamental Islam is not the greatest threat to this country. If you think it is, you are buying it hook, line, and sinker.
It's always about the money, and economic powress has and will be what makes a super power. It is that which enables us to project our will, including using our military, or mis-using them as the case might be.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
"Great men are never really complicated. The complicated people are the weak ones, beset by dozens of conflicting causes and motives, never quite knowing how to get it all together. The see one side of the issue, but they also see the other side. They see the advantage of one course of action, but they recognize that it might be better to do something else. Great men are not like this. They are not naive. They know that issues are sometimes complicated and that there are often different paths that can be taken, but they see the important cause and the best path and then follow it consistently."
This quote is just..... well..... stupid.
Kinda reminds me of those folks who try to sell you on the Amway pyramid. They always say " educated folks never seem to do well at this business". LOL...
Yea Great men are stupid blundering oafs who don't need to consider the possibilities of their actions.... funny.
PS... Stringer is definitely becoming a lefty.
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Originally posted by Staga
Hiostory is full of people like that; some thought their country needed Lebensraum and some thought communism was the way to the better future.
Stop saying "Lebensraum". You sound like a broken record.
Nash: I think you're using this death as a rallying cry just as strongly as the other side.
You people are playing tug-o-war with a dead man, and it isn't the first time.
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Hello Nash,
Congratulations on parroting the New York Times line that depressed, saddened, angered, and shocked Starr's family and friends and produced a flood of outraged responses. If you read the original story and the full note, you'll realize that Starr, his family, and his girlfriend fully supported American involvement in Iraq. In fact, here is part of his girlfriend's reaction to the NY Times spin on the letter she released:
The girlfriend of a Marine killed in Iraq said she was devastated when she saw how The New York Times cherry-picked a letter her "first love" intended her to read in case he died.
"It was sad that we had to go through this some more. I was upset about what they took out of that letter," said an emotional Emmylyn Anonical, 22, whose boyfriend Cpl. Jeffrey Starr died in Iraq earlier this year.
In her first public comments since the letter scandal erupted, Anonical told The Post that going public with the private letter was one of the hardest decisions of her life.
Seeing it used by The Times to misrepresent her boyfriend's beliefs about the war stung deeply, she said.
"The reason I chose to share that letter was the paragraph about why he was doing this, not the part about him expecting to die. It hurt, it really hurt," she said by phone from Seattle.
(http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/emmylyn.jpg)
(Starr and Emmylyn)
Nash, I work with every day with guys who have done multiple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. A few of the younger guys have been really shaken up by the agit prop that goes on in the media and have left, but by and large, despite the red tape, the heartache, and the lack of support from the intelligentsia and media at home, they are committed to seeing a functioning democracy established and as many Jihadis as possible sent to their final reward. I can honestly say that their greatest fear is not that they will be defeated by the IEDs and the RPGs but the NYTs and the LATs.
They are not afraid of that scenario merely because it will make the sacrifices of all the Jeffrey's and Emmeline's hollow, but because they know the enemy and they realize he will not stop merely because we have handed him one of his immediate objectives.
- SEAGOON
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Enough already!
The troops are the salt of the Earth and heroic in their commitment to duty and to the Nation... PERIOD!
The war in Iraq was a stupid blunder by a stupid president that has diminished us as a nation.....
These 2 statements are NOT mutually exclusive.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Help me out here....What was the reason for invading Iraq?
How is this comparable to Omaha Beach?
I don't like it when flag waving is used to distract us and intended to take our eye of the ball. It diminishes the sacrifices that were made and my own patriotism as well. Plus it insults my intelligence.
Fundamental Islam is not the greatest threat to this country. If you think it is, you are buying it hook, line, and sinker.
It's always about the money, and economic powress has and will be what makes a super power. It is that which enables us to project our will, including using our military, or mis-using them as the case might be.
Um,this just in.
The Fundamental Muslim's are'nt worried about just the U.S.
They want to subjugate the entire world.
Do you want your grandkids facing east and praying 5 times a day ?
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Either side using someone who has fallen as a symbol for their cause is disguisting to say the least.
-SW
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Uhmmm...this just in, is the person responsible for those attacks in custody?
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Originally posted by Flit
Do you want your grandkids facing east and praying 5 times a day ?
Do you want your grandkids to have the right to choose to face east and pray 5 times a day without being branded as a traitor?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The war in Iraq was a stupid blunder by a stupid president that has diminished us as a nation.....
says who - other than the left? the same left that for years before 2000 & beyond were screaming for us to do the same identical thing...
who is to say what might have happened if we were not fighting in Iraq?
I and many others I have spoken with feel Iraq was the right war, at the right time at the right place ... so sorry we didn't find you a nuke sitting on a launch pad pointing at DC, so sorry it hasn't wrapped up nice and neat like the latest episode of of your fav 30 minute sitcom
the men & women dying over there are dying for noble and just cause. to spin it otherwise is spitting on their graves IMO. The dems want control back so bad, they are willing to belittle everyone and everything that is right & good in this country to get it...
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Originally posted by Eagler
says who - other than the left? the same left that for years before 2000 & beyond were screaming for us to do the same identical thing...
who is to say what might have happened if we were not fighting in Iraq?
I and many others I have spoken with feel Iraq was the right war, at the right time at the right place ... so sorry we didn't find you a nuke sitting on a launch pad pointing at DC, so sorry it hasn't wrapped up nice and neat like the latest episode of of your fav 30 minute sitcom
the men & women dying over there are dying for noble and just cause. to spin it otherwise is spitting on their graves IMO. The dems want control back so bad, they are willing to belittle everyone and everything that is right & good in this country to get it...
Both of my statements (you only quoted one of them) were matters of opinion. People can disagree all they want. The point was, that people can hold both of those opinions.
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Hi Wulfe,
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Either side using someone who has fallen as a symbol for their cause is disguisting to say the least.
-SW
Not if that person intended for their sacrifice to advance a specific cause. Regardless of what you or others feel about the struggle in Iraq, Jeff Starr clearly saw dying there as something noble and was willing to do so in order to advance the light of freedom:
"It may seem confusing why we are in Iraq, it's not to me. I'm here helping these people, so that they can live the way we live. Not have to worry about tyrants or vicious dictators. To do what they want with their lives. To me that is why I died. Others have died for my freedom, now this is my mark."
In essence, Starr said "I am willing to die so that others might live in freedom" and proved that by laying down his life. American patriots like Nathan Hale whose last words were "I regret that I have but one life to give to my country" were equally willing to die, that their death might inspire others to continue their struggle. This has long been the aim of men dying for what they believed to be a noble cause.
For instance, Hugh Latimer, who was sent to the stake by Bloody Queen Mary for his protestant beliefs said to his fellow Martyr Nicholas Ridley as they lit the bundles of wood beneath their feet: "Be of good cheer, Ridley; and play the man. We shall this day, by God's grace, light up such a candle in England, as I trust, will never be put out."
You see, when the NYT attempts to spin the words of Jeff Starr to make them fit its anti-war agenda that is dishonest and yes perhaps even "disgusting" because they clearly understood that Starr supported American involvement in Iraq and selectively edited to obscure that fact. When others, however, proclaim what Starr himself believed and clearly and unambiguously said he was dying for, that is in accordance with his own desires.
The problem is that there are many people here in the USA who are against what Starr supported, but they sense that saying "I don't care what Jeff Starr believed, he may have been a good soldier, but he was wrong" will have a negative resonance to say the least, so they attack the use of his own words as illegitimate. I do wish that more people would simply be willing to say, "Americans - be they citizens or troops - who support the intervention in Iraq are just as wrong as the politicians who support it!", and draw the line where it actually is.
- SEAGOON
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Excuse it anyway you like, using the dead to rally together behind a cause is disgusting.
-SW
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
OK I'll write that down:
Liberal rules:
221. Bush is not allowed to use the deaths of our nations heros, even if they were patriotic and inspirational, in a patriotic and inspirational speech.
222. It is perfectly acceptable for Canadians to do very little to help out with the security of the world and fight against Islamo facism while criticising others for not helping out the security of the world and the fight against Islamo facism.
log updated nash....happy spitting.
Hey, didn't we kill a group of Canadian snipers in Afghanistan, where the actual fight was?
Sakai
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Originally posted by midnight Target
PS... Stringer is definitely becoming a lefty.
Your continued attempts to out me will not work!! :)
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I am an American who is disgusted at the waste of human life in a conflict that was initiated on manipulated information that was dissemented as the reason for putting our best and brightest in a situation to be killed.
I'll have no labels placed upon me. Our President screwed this up in my view, period, end of story.
He said Iraq was an immediate threat due to it's possesion of WMD's and that is why we invaded. No WMD's, No slack due him.
I have no problem projecting our military power. But the President had better be right when he does it, and in this case he wasn't.
For the record, I voted for him in 2000 and wrote in Powell in 2004.
Hiding behind Archie Bunker flag waving is disgusting.
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So, Wulfe what you are saying is that:
"I regret that I have but one life to give to my country"
"Make way for liberty!"
"My choice is to stay in this fort and die for my country, fighting as long as breath should remain in my body"
"Tell the men to fire faster and not to give up the ship; fight her till she sinks."
Are all "disgusting", because they were the last words of fallen men who died in a cause and were used to rally others behind that (often unpopular) cause?
I'll confess I sometimes don't know what frightens me more, the prospect that the Jihadis will be successful or that we have become a culture that no longer believes in truth or absolutes and consequently feels nothing is worth dying for any longer.
- SEAGOON
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The way they were being potatod out? Yes, it is disgusting.
-SW
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in a sense nash you could say we 101st keyboarders are fighting an important war back home......
Yes, but the most danger you'll face is a blister on your thumb. Or perhaps spilling coffee on your shorts in a fit of self-righteous indignation.
Hardly road-side bombs and RPGs so don't even try to reach a parallel there. For whatever reason, Yeager, you've never served your country - like most people. Accept that like any normal person would and maintain some credibility.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
So, Wulfe what you are saying is that:
"I regret that I have but one life to give to my country"
"Make way for liberty!"
"My choice is to stay in this fort and die for my country, fighting as long as breath should remain in my body"
"Tell the men to fire faster and not to give up the ship; fight her till she sinks."
Are all "disgusting", because they were the last words of fallen men who died in a cause and were used to rally others behind that (often unpopular) cause?
I'll confess I sometimes don't know what frightens me more, the prospect that the Jihadis will be successful or that we have become a culture that no longer believes in truth or absolutes and consequently feels nothing is worth dying for any longer.
- SEAGOON
You're comparing those quotes to "Mission Accomplished"?
And how do you equate not agreeing to invading a country under manipulated pretenses to a culture that feels nothing is worth dying for?
I know what frightens me more and most of it is contained in this thread.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
So, Wulfe what you are saying is that:
"I regret that I have but one life to give to my country"
"Make way for liberty!"
"My choice is to stay in this fort and die for my country, fighting as long as breath should remain in my body"
"Tell the men to fire faster and not to give up the ship; fight her till she sinks."
Are all "disgusting", because they were the last words of fallen men who died in a cause and were used to rally others behind that (often unpopular) cause?
I'll confess I sometimes don't know what frightens me more, the prospect that the Jihadis will be successful or that we have become a culture that no longer believes in truth or absolutes and consequently feels nothing is worth dying for any longer.
- SEAGOON
Well, you don't know what he really thought, only what he allegedly left for his girlfriend to have to read in case he died. So using the dead man that you are making assumptions about is pathetic regardless of what your personal beliefs are.
Also, if you look at how the Bush admin has manipulated people and their sacrifice in this war--like Pat Tillman who the military patently lied to you about--then there is good reason to suspect the motivation of the admin and the military.
Heaven's, how do we know the military did not plant the letter or rewrite it? They planted several here in the states in papers.
Why do you believe everything you're told to believe? Especially regarding things they have lied about to us recently?
Sakai
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Originally posted by Stringer
Fundamental Islam is not the greatest threat to this country. If you think it is, you are buying it hook, line, and sinker.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha :O
islamn or death thats thier motto
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Originally posted by icemaw
hahahahahahahahahahahaha :O
islamn or death thats thier motto
WalMart has a motto too, should I fear them as well?
Here's the deal. We go into Afghanistan because they directly housed and aided the people that planned and carried out the attack on our country. The rest of the world, including much of Islam, can buy that and can understand that. We don't look like crusaders. We retain credibility. I'm for that. We probably use to it's best effect, our ability to project power across the globe.
We go into Iraq for reasons that have shown to be a stretch at best and an outright fabrication atworst and we loose credibility. We look like Crusaders. We misuse and waste our projection of power.
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Originally posted by Eagler
says who - other than the left? the same left that for years before 2000 & beyond were screaming for us to do the same identical thing...
who is to say what might have happened if we were not fighting in Iraq?
I and many others I have spoken with feel Iraq was the right war, at the right time at the right place ... so sorry we didn't find you a nuke sitting on a launch pad pointing at DC, so sorry it hasn't wrapped up nice and neat like the latest episode of of your fav 30 minute sitcom
the men & women dying over there are dying for noble and just cause. to spin it otherwise is spitting on their graves IMO. The dems want control back so bad, they are willing to belittle everyone and everything that is right & good in this country to get it...
E I know you watch and read the news. It isnt just the left that is saying that the pres blundered.........
The Reps will do anything to keep control. I dont see how that is different than the Dems wanting control?
The troops are doing the job they were told to do. <>
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Originally posted by Stringer
WalMart has a motto too, should I fear them as well?
As a matter of fact... :eek:
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Originally posted by Stringer
WalMart has a motto too, should I fear them as well?
Here's the deal. We go into Afghanistan because they directly housed and aided the people that planned and carried out the attack on our country. The rest of the world, including much of Islam, can buy that and can understand that. We don't look like crusaders. We retain credibility. I'm for that. We probably use to it's best effect, our ability to project power across the globe.
We go into Iraq for reasons that have shown to be a stretch at best and an outright fabrication atworst and we loose credibility. We look like Crusaders. We misuse and waste our projection of power.
SO you don't think Radical Islamofacism is a threat to the security of our nation.
It may have not been the reason's for going into Iraq but elements of our enemys are there now. They are spreading out and networking all over the globe. If you don't think that Radical Islam isn't a threat to world peace you are sadly mistaken.
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Only in America would liberals fear a successful corporation more than fundamental terrorists.:huh :cry
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I'll confess I sometimes don't know what frightens me more, the prospect that the Jihadis will be successful or that we have become a culture that no longer believes in truth or absolutes and consequently feels nothing is worth dying for any longer.
- SEAGOON
I'm more afraid of the Bible Thumpers in this country. They are a greater threat to our Freedom than some guy that wears a towel in his head and lives in some tent in the Middle East.
ack-ack
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I'm more afraid of the Bible Thumpers in this country.
They are a greater threat to our Freedom than some guy that wears a towel in his head and lives in some tent in the Middle East.
ack-ack
====
are you serious?
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Stringer :aok
nice to see some are not blindet by the media or the present Leadership.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
SO you don't think Radical Islamofacism is a threat to the security of our nation.
It may have not been the reason's for going into Iraq but elements of our enemys are there now.
DING DING DING....we have a winner. Our mis-action in Iraq certainly put those elements in place AFTER we invaded.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Only in America would liberals fear a successful corporation more than fundamental terrorists.:huh :cry
I didn't say that Rip, but you know that already. I've made plenty of money off of Walmart. I actually like their new store in Shenzen.
Ever been to Shenzen Rip? Ever been to Sri Lanka Rip? Ever been to Pakistan Rip? Ever been to India Rip? Ever been to Thailand Rip? Ever been to the Phillipines Rip? Ever been to Honk Kong Rip? Ever been to the UK Rip? Ever been to Belgium Rip (p.s. when you go there, don't go anywhere with Saw!!!)
Don't make the mistake of labeling me. You will be wrong.
BTW, I must have missed your take on that entire post of mine.
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Gunslinger,
Simple question....Who has proved that they have the ability to strike us on our soil?
And follow-up question, is he in custody?
Answer question 1 and you know who the threat is....answer question 2 and you know why I feel the way I do.
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Hello Ack-Ack,
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm more afraid of the Bible Thumpers in this country. They are a greater threat to our Freedom than some guy that wears a towel in his head and lives in some tent in the Middle East.
I'm trying hard to remember back to the way I felt about "Bible Thumpers" when I was pagan. I remember loathing evangelicals and finding them intensely irritating, but I don't recall actually ever "fearing them" or finding them to be a threat to anything in particular.
I'll admit to being intensely curious, what exactly do you "fear" us "bible thumpers" are going to do and which freedoms do you think we are going to take, and how are we going to accomplish that exactly?
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Stringer
Gunslinger,
Simple question....Who has proved that they have the ability to strike us on our soil?
And follow-up question, is he in custody?
Answer question 1 and you know who the threat is....answer question 2 and you know why I feel the way I do.
Stringer,
I agree would should not have gone and that Bush is a mess.
But we have gone into Iraq, and since we made the mess should we not clean it up?
Or do we just do a vietnam and leave the poor bastards in the lurch?
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Originally posted by Stringer
Gunslinger,
Simple question....Who has proved that they have the ability to strike us on our soil?
And follow-up question, is he in custody?
Answer question 1 and you know who the threat is....answer question 2 and you know why I feel the way I do.
In reguards to the first post, yes we caused this front to open up. Our invasion of Iraq mobilized every muslim with radical feelings to pack up and head out at maybe there only chances at shooting anc killing Americans.
Tragic or strategic I can' argue that it wasn't our fault. We started this battle in Iraq wich is even more of a reason to me to finish the job there. Alot of people ask how OBL fits in to all of this and really he doesn't. I don't know were he is and what his capabilities are but I am certain that he is just one elment of the threat we are facing.
If after 9/11 we had captured or killed Bin Laden somone surley would have replaced him so IMHO he is just one aspect, a big one, but just one in this global war.
What scares me the most (and this will answer your capabilities question) is if we fail in Iraq and it turns into a radical islamofasicits regiem. Yes this would be our fault as well, but it hasn't happened yet. If it does happen, or we choose to ignore the global spread of islamo fascists they will one day be at our doorstep and powerfull as ever. I look to the bombings in Europe this year as proof. As tragic as they are they stand to me as a harsh lesson that these people cannot be dealt with or appeased.
I also look to the goals of our enemy and they clearly state they want to establish an Islamic caliphate on a global scale. Yes I think we need to capture or kill bin ladin, and I think we are still vigeroulsy searching for him. but to ignore the expansion of radical islam is to let them become a bigger enemy to defeat. IMHO Iraq is the first modern battlefield in this war and we are winning it. Terrorist in Iraq are getting desparate, they are attacking their own and engaging in civil war even against other sects of muslims outside of Iraq. It's tragic what they do but it's in a way good for us because every kid, every wedding party that terrorists kill is less sympothy for their cause recieved.
Anyhow that's just how I've been thinking as of late
EDIT: here's a pretty good write up:
Their Strategic Plan is essentially as follows:
1. Remove the Western presence from Iraq.
-- Kill even just one American a day. Americans will eventually tire and give up. They are weak and have no stomach for this fight.
2. Eliminate Western influence in the Middle East.
-- Turn Iraq into an Islamic state ruled by the Sharia.
3. Eliminate the apostate goverments in the Middle East.
-- Especially regain Saudi Arabia. Disestablish the House of Fahd. Wahhabism will rule Saudi Arabia. Then go after the others.
4. Cut off oil to the United States, and use the remaining oil to make other countries--and thus also the United States--compliant.
5. Eliminate the entire Nation of Israel.
-- This does not just mean "take it over" or "create a Palestinian State." It appears to mean to exterminate every Jewish man, woman and child.
6. Establish the Dar al-Islam (literally, House of Submission) from Africa to the Stans to Indonesia.
-- Re-establish the greatness of the Islamic world from about 700-1300 A.D.
7. Spread the Dar al-Islam across the world…into Africa…across Asia…into Europe…over to South America…and eventually even the United States.
The enemy is a Global Network. They communicate across about 4000 websites. They are not Hierarchical…they are a Franchise.
Here's an excerpt of what he wrote recently (9 July 05) in a letter to al-Zarqawi:
"If our intended goal in this age is the establishment of a caliphate in the manner of the Prophet and if we expect to establish its state predominantly - according to how it appeals to us - in the heart of the Islamic world, then your efforts and sacrifices, God permitting, are a large step directly towards that goal.
So we must think for a long time about our next steps and how we want to attain it, and it is my humble opinion that the Jihad in Iraq requires several incremental goals:
The first stage: expel the Americans from Iraq.
The second stage: Establish an Islamic authority or amirate, then develop it and support it until it achieves the level of a caliphate over as much territory as you can to spread its power in Iraq, i.e., in Sunni areas, is in order to fill the void stemming from the departure of the Americans, immediately upon their exit and before un-Islamic forces attempt to fill this void, whether those whom the Americans will leave behind them, or those among the un-Islamic forces who will ... jump at taking power.
There is no doubt that this amirate will enter into a fierce struggle with the foreign infidel forces, and those supporting them among the local forces, to put it in a state of constant preoccupation with defending itself, to make it impossible for it to establish a stable state which could proclaim a caliphate, and to keep the Jihadist groups in a constant state of war, until these forces find a chance to annihilate them.
The third stage: Extend the jihad wave to the secular countries neighboring Iraq.
The fourth stage: It may coincide with what came before: the clash with Israel, because Israel was established only to challenge any new Islamic entity.
My raising this idea - I don't claim that it's infallible - is only to stress something extremely important. And it is that the mujahedeen must not have their mission end with the expulsion of the Americans from Iraq, and then lay down their weapons, and silence the fighting zeal. We will return to having the secularists and traitors holding sway over us. Instead, their ongoing mission is to establish an Islamic State, and defend it, and for every generation to hand over the banner to the one after it until the Hour of Resurrection.
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Oh Boy! This is a good one!
The political and patriotic heros on this BBS should have fun beating this to death.
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Originally posted by Swager
Oh Boy! This is a good one!
The political and patriotic heros on this BBS should have fun beating this to death.
No actually it's pretty sad and far from fun. It's sad that good words from a good Marine get turned into bad things because they are repeated by the president.
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Im trying to point out GS that many of the characters in this BBS post just for the reason of arguement. Deep down inside many do not realize the true implications.
No harm to the memory of this Marine was intended in my post.
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Originally posted by Swager
Im trying to point out GS that many of the characters in this BBS post just for the reason of arguement. Deep down inside many do not realize the true implications.
No harm to the memory of this Marine was intended in my post.
none taken. I think Cpl Starr was a Marine of honor and an American hero.
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Gun,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
I don't believe in appeasement as well.
I also don't like label makers (i.e. right call left, left calling right) covering themselves in the noble intentions of a marine.
His words are his, period. Not conservatives or liberals, or even keyboard heroes on a BBS.
As I stated earlier, I voted for Bush in '00, but wrote in Powell in '04. I was in support of our action in Iraq until no WMD's were found, and it became clear the Bush Admin has no clear idea on how to prosecute this war to a successful peace.
Do I think radicals of any stripe want to wipe our ideals away. Yes of course I do, but do I think we are prosecuting this correctly? No I don't.
But it was Bin Laden who killed Americans on American soil, not Iraq.
Let's remember it was the Bush Admin's manipulation of information that justified his decision. Let's not forget that it was a misrepresentation that initiated the action that ultimately cost this young marine his life. Deep down, this did not start out as a noble cause for the policy makers who led us there.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Do you want your grandkids to have the right to choose to face east and pray 5 times a day without being branded as a traitor?
If I had grandkids, they would have that right as of now.
I think "the right to choose" part you got right.
If we lose this war(which we won't) they woud'nt have a choice.It would be face east or die.
Thats what you people (refering to all of those who don't believe that we are at war, and we are fighting for the survival of our way of life) had better begin to comprehend.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Stringer,
I agree would should not have gone and that Bush is a mess.
But we have gone into Iraq, and since we made the mess should we not clean it up?
Or do we just do a vietnam and leave the poor bastards in the lurch?
Yes, we should fix it up as best we can, since we did a good job of breaking it. I agree Gtora2. I won't argue that. But I haven't seen this Admin come up with any brilliant ideas lately, have you?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Ack-Ack,
I'm trying hard to remember back to the way I felt about "Bible Thumpers" when I was pagan. I remember loathing evangelicals and finding them intensely irritating, but I don't recall actually ever "fearing them" or finding them to be a threat to anything in particular.
I'll admit to being intensely curious, what exactly do you "fear" us "bible thumpers" are going to do and which freedoms do you think we are going to take, and how are we going to accomplish that exactly?
- SEAGOON
Old bait my friend...
They want law to be based on their religious beliefs. I want know such thing.....
They think their morals and religious values are what should be the law in this country.
All fanatics are dangerous. Whether they be Christian or otherwise..
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Stringer,
I agree would should not have gone and that Bush is a mess.
"I agree would should not have gone and that Bush is a mess."
Holy smokes.
One by betrayed one you fall.
It's good that you realize it now. But you have no leg to stand on with regard to what to do about the "mess" that's been made.
I mean, would you have us believe that because you knew how to get everyone into this mess, you know best how to get everyone out?
I don't think so mister.
If you were working for me and tried to pull this stunt, you'd be told to shut up and exit.
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Originally posted by Nash
"I agree would should not have gone and that Bush is a mess."
It's good that you realize it now. But you have no leg to stand on with regard to what to do about the "mess" that's been made.
what mess has been made?
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What is the "mess" that has been made in Iraq?
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Nuke, it's obvious that you don't think that this is a mess. In fact, you think this is the greatest thing that's ever been.
Here in the reality-based community, some of us note some problems.
You need a different thread for your outlook.
Title it: "Iraq; peaches!" ........ or something.
But debate on the situation in Iraq shouldn't be constantly side-winded by your "what me worry?" angle.....
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Nash, just tell me what mess you think was created. What is it that makes you think that Iraq has been turned into a mess?
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War unsustainable.
Pull-out innevitable.
Civil war ensues.
*Worse* than Saddam finally takes control.
Terrorism in Iraq becomes *in fact* a reality.
Enboldened by the fact that the US military can't do anything about it. Once a question mark, now a certainty.
Now it's boogy time.
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Nash, in what way is Iraq is a mess?
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are u a bot?
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Originally posted by Nash
War unsustainable.
Pull-out innevitable.
Civil war ensues.
*Worse* than Saddam finally takes control.
Terrorism in Iraq becomes *in fact* a reality.
Enboldened by the fact that the US military can't do anything about it. Once a question mark, now a certainty.
Now it's boogy time.
You have not said why you think Iraq is a mess.
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Nuke, the point of war is to make peace, yes?
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Originally posted by moot
Nuke, the point of war is to make peace, yes?
Nope.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Ack-Ack,
I'm trying hard to remember back to the way I felt about "Bible Thumpers" when I was pagan. I remember loathing evangelicals and finding them intensely irritating, but I don't recall actually ever "fearing them" or finding them to be a threat to anything in particular.
LMAO!!! Don't think I've ever been called or referred to as a Pagan before. I wonder if you realize that all of your Christian holidays and festivals were taken directly from Pagan holidays and irituals.
I'll admit to being intensely curious, what exactly do you "fear" us "bible thumpers" are going to do and which freedoms do you think we are going to take, and how are we going to accomplish that exactly?
- SEAGOON
Hmmm...let's see. My freedom of not having to worry about sending my children to a public school and be forced fed religion. The freedom for women to be able to choose. The freedom of waking up and not finding myself living in what was a democratic country that became a Christian Theocracy, which is what our Founding Fathers never intended this country to become. The freedom of not having some bible thumper telling me how to live my life. The freedom for a child to pick up a book in the school library without some bible thumper throwing a tantrum because it "promotes Witchcraft".
The only difference between a Bible Thumper and a Jihadist is that a Bible Thumper wears a tie.
ack-ack
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What then?
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Originally posted by moot
What then?
Are you asking me to explain the point of war?
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To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women?
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Originally posted by Sandman
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women?
That's your idea of the point of war?
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More like Conan's.
ack-ack
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Enough with the knucklehead beating around the bush Nuke.
What's the point of war, if not to make peace?
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Originally posted by NUKE
That's your idea of the point of war?
You answered my question with a question. This is going to be a long night.
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Originally posted by moot
Enough with the knucklehead beating around the bush Nuke.
What's the point of war, if not to make peace?
Well... if you want a righteous war, okay. If not, there are other reasons.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
LMAO!!! Don't think I've ever been called or referred to as a Pagan before. I wonder if you realize that all of your Christian holidays and festivals were taken directly from Pagan holidays and irituals.
Hmmm...let's see. My freedom of not having to worry about sending my children to a public school and be forced fed religion. The freedom for women to be able to choose. The freedom of waking up and not finding myself living in what was a democratic country that became a Christian Theocracy, which is what our Founding Fathers never intended this country to become. The freedom of not having some bible thumper telling me how to live my life. The freedom for a child to pick up a book in the school library without some bible thumper throwing a tantrum because it "promotes Witchcraft".
The only difference between a Bible Thumper and a Jihadist is that a Bible Thumper wears a tie.
ack-ack
Ummm.. Seagoon was refering to himself when he said Pagan
And Bible Thumper's dont bomb weddings.
Everything else I agree with:aok
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Can you briefly enumerate a few?
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Originally posted by Stringer
WalMart has a motto too, should I fear them as well?
Here's the deal. We go into Afghanistan because they directly housed and aided the people that planned and carried out the attack on our country. The rest of the world, including much of Islam, can buy that and can understand that. We don't look like crusaders. We retain credibility. I'm for that. We probably use to it's best effect, our ability to project power across the globe.
We go into Iraq for reasons that have shown to be a stretch at best and an outright fabrication atworst and we loose credibility. We look like Crusaders. We misuse and waste our projection of power.
For some reason what you just typed is what I believe! I really don't understand anyone who believes different! It really hits the nail on the head as far as being logical goes!
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Originally posted by Flit
Ummm.. Seagoon was refering to himself when he said Pagan
And Bible Thumper's dont bomb weddings.
Everything else I agree with:aok
No, they genarlly don't bomb wedddings, but what they will do in the name of their religion, is convince as many human beings as possible that if they don't accept their religion, they are in conspiracy with the devil, the most evil power in the universe, and they will experience eternity burning in the lake of fire! Christianity is about on par with radical islamic fundamentalism as far as the scare tactics go! Burn in hell, or get your head chopped off! Which one is better??????????????????????????????????????
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Originally posted by moot
Can you briefly enumerate a few?
Natural resources, for one.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Gun,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
I don't believe in appeasement as well.
I also don't like label makers (i.e. right call left, left calling right) covering themselves in the noble intentions of a marine.
His words are his, period. Not conservatives or liberals, or even keyboard heroes on a BBS.
As I stated earlier, I voted for Bush in '00, but wrote in Powell in '04. I was in support of our action in Iraq until no WMD's were found, and it became clear the Bush Admin has no clear idea on how to prosecute this war to a successful peace.
Do I think radicals of any stripe want to wipe our ideals away. Yes of course I do, but do I think we are prosecuting this correctly? No I don't.
But it was Bin Laden who killed Americans on American soil, not Iraq.
Let's remember it was the Bush Admin's manipulation of information that justified his decision. Let's not forget that it was a misrepresentation that initiated the action that ultimately cost this young marine his life. Deep down, this did not start out as a noble cause for the policy makers who led us there.
Very well said, sir!
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Does anyone feel good about this war?
Think it makes sense?
Kiss your girl ciao, and beat your buddies to the front of the enlistment line?
Have your country turn on a dime, into putting everything it has got into winning?
Have your girl working in plant manufacturing munitions?
Rationing fuel?
Ladies, this is a joke, not a war.
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nash, appreciate your spin on things. as usual, pointed.... certainly debatable but always well intended.
The war being waged in Iraq is not a joke. its not a world war either...... what it could very well be is the war the leads to global conflageration, or the war that prevents it.
Time will tell....
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Originally posted by SkyRock
No, they genarlly don't bomb wedddings, but what they will do in the name of their religion, is convince as many human beings as possible that if they don't accept their religion, they are in conspiracy with the devil, the most evil power in the universe, and they will experience eternity burning in the lake of fire! Christianity is about on par with radical islamic fundamentalism as far as the scare tactics go! Burn in hell, or get your head chopped off! Which one is better??????????????????????????????????????
Well, around here (the USA) you can chose to be agnostic
That means the fear of "a everlasting lake of fire" is removed.
That leaves getting your head chopped off.
Which would you prefer, if you had a CHOICE?
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That counts as peace: there's a crisis shortage, war executes the solution to remedy it, shortage void is filled and crisis is over.
It couldn't happen if it didn't make sense Nash..
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I was listneing to a liberal talk show recently, npr I think...they had a retired marine corps general on there and the host asked him "how do we win the war on terror?" this general replied, and I paraphrase: "Easy, do what the terrorists want. Otherwise we just go back and fourth in a perpeptual conflict, hoping that a WMD isnt released on a population center"....... then I dont know what happens."
Seems like an absurd idea but its probably the only way to succeed completely....just honor their demands.
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Hi Ack,
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
LMAO!!! Don't think I've ever been called or referred to as a Pagan before. I wonder if you realize that all of your Christian holidays and festivals were taken directly from Pagan holidays and irituals.
As Flit pointed out, I was referring to me. I was a Pagan till 1993 - a practicing occultist and a member of the Golden Dawn if you are familiar with that particular group.
And yes Ack, I am aware that Christian Feast Days are not biblical but were put in the place of Pagan feast days, so that Christmas occurs at the time the Saturnalia used to. Not that it matters to this thread, but the only holy day I observe in corporate worship is the Lord's Day. I wrote a magazine article on the subject a while back, if you are interested an online version is available here (http://www.providencepca.com/essays/holydays.html)
Hmmm...let's see. My freedom of not having to worry about sending my children to a public school and be forced fed religion. The freedom for women to be able to choose. The freedom of waking up and not finding myself living in what was a democratic country that became a Christian Theocracy, which is what our Founding Fathers never intended this country to become. The freedom of not having some bible thumper telling me how to live my life. The freedom for a child to pick up a book in the school library without some bible thumper throwing a tantrum because it "promotes Witchcraft".
Lets see, so the mandatory alternative is that everyone who can't afford to send their child to a private school or who doesn't have the resources to enable them to homeschool must accept having their children "force fed" atheism and materialism? And hasn't the total removal of Christianity from the schools made them so much more pleasant? As an article in a Honolulu newspaper pointed out:
"The challenges that today's teen-agers face are starkly evident in a recent U.S. News and World Report story comparing the top discipline problems reported by public school teachers in 1940 with those in 1990.
Teachers in 1940 disciplined students for talking out of turn, chewing gum, making noise, running in the halls, cutting in line, dress-code violations and littering.
A mere 21/2 generations later, teachers listed the following problems: drug abuse, alcohol abuse, pregnancy, suicide, rape, robbery and assault. Teens and their families, like teachers, are now confronted by a set of issues dramatically different from those of the past. Contemporary American teens live in a toxic society with epidemic levels of alcohol and drug abuse, suicide, violence, pregnancy, child abuse and destabilized families."
As for abortion, that particular "old American freedom" wasn't discovered until 1973, and bible thumpers haven't exactly been wildly successful in returning the right to choose whether abortion should be legal to the states.
In any event, Ack, you didn't give me the mechanism by which the dreaded American Christians might be able to effect all these changes. I suspect that is because on reflection, the only way they can promote the changes you suggest is through the same Democratic processes you have access to. Its not exactly like they are using the same methodology as the Muslim Brotherhood in achieving their aims.
So are you suggesting then that Bible Believing Christians should not be allowed to vote or run for office?
For that matter, can you explain for a moment why the atheistic worldview is so much better for the nation? Give me some of the positive fruits, some hard data that shows why we are better off now because of secular humanism than when the US was more overtly Christian.
The only difference between a Bible Thumper and a Jihadist is that a Bible Thumper wears a tie.
Really, so American evangelicals have a world-wide network of terrorist organizations dedicated to killing or violently expelling non-Christians from the "Dar-El-Christendom" and then forcibly taking over other non-Christian nations and giving the non-Christian citizens the option of conversion, reduction to third class citizenship, or death?
Do Christian clerics routinely issue Christian Fatwas calling on the faithful to kill a particular "blasphemer" Do they prevent the construction of new Mosques and close down or destroy existing ones? Did they rejoice when the Tsunami devastated the worlds most populous Muslim nation? Didn't they send in countless relief and clean-up teams and donate millions of dollar etc. etc. etc. Funny how the petro-chemical funded Jihadis were just as eager to assist us after Katrina, eh?
The only difference is the tie indeed, to quote the original Yiddish: "Oy Vey."
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Yeager, I've paid attention to your words over the course of the last two years. Interesting stuff.
One quick search/dig and I could deposit here a truck-load of your words saying in effect that you think this war is tantamount to Armageddon. Some kind of final war.
And that's not a stretch. You believe that. And you happen to be a great example.
And in the face of Armageddon.... total war..... What do you do?
What are you doing?
Nothing.
You are doing nothing other than making lame excuses for you doing nothing, by saying that you're doing something by talking about it on the internet.
IN THE FACE OF (what you think is) ARMAGEDDON!
That is all you're willing to contribute.
And by "that" I mean "dick all."
So I gotta wonder how seriously you take your own words. Is it the end times or not? If so.... what are doing about it? If not, how's about you come back down to reality.
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interesting you should frame me like that nash. By frame, I mean that literally, like framing a picture. My brother framed me in a similar way recently, and it makes me think. I appreciate that, Thanks.
I think humanity is most likely experiencing it last 100 years or so. 150 at a stretch. Ive felt this way for about 20 years now so Im still on schedule.
I hope I am wrong.
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I guess what I'm trying to say is....
If this war was really something some of you have been trying to make it out to be, there'd be sacrifice.
Bush's call is for you to go shopping and to visit Disnelyland. Not kidding.
I certainly can't take it seriously (nevermind the absolute lies and bs)....
At the end of the day? Kids are getting killed. Pains me. Every day.
For this crap.
You 101st Fighting Keyboardists get the hell out of here and go relieve them for chrissakes.
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oh hell nash...I see what you mean.
I guess.....I believe that whats happening in Iraq is a much larger dispute.
Its almost impossible to discuss here....
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Originally posted by Stringer
Yes, we should fix it up as best we can, since we did a good job of breaking it. I agree Gtora2. I won't argue that. But I haven't seen this Admin come up with any brilliant ideas lately, have you?
No not at all, other then the job they did with the invasion, I think the troops in the field are doing the best they can but the bush admin is running the war wrong.
I think we should have broken the country into three anyway.
I am not sure if the bush admin is going to be able to finnish the job right.
I also don't think it is the total disaster that some here think it is. It is hard to tell though, I don't really trust the news networks to give as a real look at how things are going, nor do I think we can trust what comes out of the pentagon as either.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Natural resources, for one.
And Soccer. Who can forget the bloody Soccer War?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Nash
I guess what I'm trying to say is....
If this war was really something some of you have been trying to make it out to be, there'd be sacrifice.
Bush's call is for you to go shopping and to visit Disnelyland. Not kidding.
I certainly can't take it seriously (nevermind the absolute lies and bs)....
At the end of the day? Kids are getting killed. Pains me. Every day.
For this crap.
You 101st Fighting Keyboardists get the hell out of here and go relieve them for chrissakes.
For someone who has never put on any nations uniform you sure do a lot of talking and volunteering folks. Telling someone else to do what you won't just doesn't cut it. Frankly it's pretty much tantamount to the pot calling the kettle black. Several of us have already done time in uniform and then some including overseas duty at the call of our country.
If you are so intent about stopping the "pain" you allegedly "feel" when someone from a country other than yours, in a uniform you never wore or attempted to wear dies, you could go posting on the BBS for the opposition. I'm sure you could convince them that strapping bombs on and walking into weddings then detonating them is not a polite thing to do. The same for setting up explosives in market places, on streets etc. etc. in Iraq.
I think your advice to others is something you yourself should follow. Here, I'll quote you on it. Definately try the middle part. "You 101st Fighting Keyboardists get the hell out of here and go relieve them for chrissakes."
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Hi Mav,
Originally posted by Maverick
If you are so intent about stopping the "pain" you allegedly "feel" when someone from a country other than yours, in a uniform you never wore or attempted to wear dies, you could go posting on the BBS for the opposition. I'm sure you could convince them that strapping bombs on and walking into weddings then detonating them is not a polite thing to do. The same for setting up explosives in market places, on streets etc. etc. in Iraq.
I think your advice to others is something you yourself should follow. Here, I'll quote you on it. Definately try the middle part. "You 101st Fighting Keyboardists get the hell out of here and go relieve them for chrissakes."
To be completely fair to Nash, unless he learns to speak Arabic, following this advice is going to be very difficult.
Most of the English language websites I frequent that are maintained by advocates of Jihad either do not have English language forums, or sanitize them heavily because they know that the primary English language readership is Western. I do know of a few that get fairly inflamed, (one I was reading this morning had a series of threads along the lines of "America disgusting and decadent" and "British the Scum of the Earth.") But actually few of them say anything very different in tone from what you can read here. They hate Bush, hate Americans, hate Israel, hate Blair, hope America will be defeated and withdraw from Iraq etc... Their worldview and expression is different, they quote the Quran and the Hadiths more often, and their ultimate objectives are different but all in all, they sound remarkably similar to Cindy Sheehan and other American patriots. Some of their conspiracy theories are even better though, my current favorite cropping up on various boards is that OBL is in fact an American or Israeli CGI. They also go back and forth over whether the Jihad should be mostly defensive or offensive, the moderates want a defensive Jihad first.
The real hardcore Jihadist sites however are all password protected, and with very few exceptions are exclusively in Arabic.
Anyway, for a quick introduction to the more blatant Jihadi multimedia, web presence, and forum postings, you might want to check out the excellent Site Institute Website (http://www.siteinstitute.org/)
- SEAGOON