Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wilbus on December 01, 2005, 04:16:48 AM
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Did some offline testing to find out wether there was a difference between MG hits and 20mm hits as far as hit sprites (smoke puffs) go.
First, DarkBlue, I am just using our fight as a discussion purpose. In no way what so ever is this a criticism against you. I am using it as I caught it on film and the shot was from very close range.
What made me tick was the fight between me and DarkBlue a few days ago where his spit got shot up pretty bad without dammage from close range by my Ki84, whereafter I lost my tail from a long range quick shot.
I fired both 20mm and MG's and have it on film (http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/50/AH%20Films/I_Want_Hizookas.ahf).
Play the film in slow motion when I get to the firing point. Also, look at it from F3 view after chosing DarkBlues plane and view it from straight above his plane (giving you a view from the top will enable you to see all hits).
OK. To the test.
Here is the first screenshot showing MG only hits from the Ki84's MG's.
MG's are 12.7mm Ho-103's if I am not misstaking.
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/50/AH%20Screenshots/MGHits.JPG)
Note the quite small hit puffs.
This is a picture showing 20mm only hits from the same range (about 100 yards).
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/50/AH%20Screenshots/20mmHits.JPG)
Note the much larger smoke puffs.
Finally, here is a picture taken from the film showing the smoke puffs after I had completed my fireing pass on the spit.
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/50/AH%20Screenshots/spitsmoked.JPG)
Those smoke puffs are 20mm without much doubt if you compare it with the above pictures. Yet, counting the puffs, seeing 5 on that picture alone, DarkBlue recieved no dammage. He said he got a single hole in his canopy.
Should HO-5's be this bad and so much worse then Hispanos?
I find it hard to believe a spit would take 5x20mm hits from close range without any sort of dammage, atleast Dark should've seen some holes etc.
Anybody have good info about Ho-5's as far as velocity and ammount of HE goes?
RPM is 900 per gun so very fast firing but they seem to be on par (dmg wise) with some MG's in the game.
OR, could this (finally) be rubber bullets caught on tape? (Yeah I know they don't exist).
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I think thats some pretty solid evidence of rubber bullets. A rake like that with 20mm's should give a spit at least a pilot wound, or an oil leak. I've received 2 hits from a ki84 on my wingtip and down to the ground I go, so I know that the guns on it aren't weak.
Alright, watched the film again. I counted 4 on the right wing, at least two on the left, two on the cockpit area, two more on the fuelslage and one on the tail. There are definitely more, but I also notice your machine guns were firing, so I dunno. But from that burst, he should've got an oil leak, or lost a flap. Maybe one of you have a bad connection?
P.S. That was a nice snapshot
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and Thanks.
Yes I was firing all I had. But look at the screenshot with the smokepuffs on the spit. Compare it to the "MG Hits" screenshot of the P51 and "20mm Hits" on the P51. Those smoke puffs from on teh spit are from 20mm. Thus atleast 5 hits were 20mm.
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OH Btw, why the "IN teresting"? :D
I hope this thread won't be closed so don't get your hopes up! :)
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I can't comment on if its right or wrong, because there are instances of planes making it back from severe hits that should in normal cases dropped the plane. It's an extreme case, but one such intance would be Robert Johnson's P-47 after his tangle with Egon Meyer's Fw190.
Anyhow, there could be a number of reasons why the cannon hits to that Spitfire did not give off enough damage.
I've seen the pic in that other thread, and from that angle, I count two hits on the left wing, one on the portside rear section behind the cockpit, and two very close to the starbordside cockpit. However, the sprites themselves are sometimes misleading, as there hit places are not always accurately displayed. Another reason is may be that the rounds may have a basic level of damage, but it depends on the relative conditions of the fight.
Or, for some very unlucky reason, the hits may have been recorded at something like "1 point" before structural failure, but stopped just there. Two hits seem concentrated on the left wing, but it may not have been enough to snap it off. Since DrkBlue said he got a hole in his cockpit, it is pretty obvious some of the force of 20mm impact did penetrate through his cockpit glass and cracked it. However, the fact remains that it might not have been enough.
One thing I can comment though, is that the limitations of the current damage modelling might be the reason DrkBlue survived, as we can assume that a better, more sophisticated damage modelling might have caused lot more complications for him.
For instance;
1) if the angle of the screenshot you have on his Spitfire is the angle you fired at him, then the 20mm shells impacted almost 90 degrees to his left wing surface. Two cannon shells at that angle at close proximity, would have dealt a very destructive blow to the surface of his left wing and would have ripped open a very large hole - immediately effecting the performance of the Spitfire, despite the fact it wasn't enough to snap the wing off.
IF we assume a higher level of realism, one of the shells connected on his left wing might have been a AP or API round. It might have at least punctured his gearbox or with some luck, could have damaged the ammo box of his gun.
2) I do not observe any hits directly to the cockpit, and yet, DrkBlue said that he got a hole. This means there was a close impact of a 20mm HE shell to his cockpit glass(which, is pretty obvious from the screenshot). 20mm shells don't drill "holes" in the cockpit. It is entirely possible, that his cockpit glass held solid and did not cause any harm to the pilot - however, a close impact of a 20mm would have cracked the glass like a sledgehammer hit to a car windshield - a "web" like series of cracks that will immediately impair his rearward visibility, instead of the clear, simple, "hole".
3) despite your logical analysis in this thread, we still can't really confirm if those hits are really all 20mms or not.. I think your basic analysis is logical, but to tell you the truth, I really can't be too sure if those are indeed, all 20mms. If AH would have displayed AP impacts and HE impacts seperately for guns of 23mm calibre and under, it might have been a lot easier to determine things.
4) however, since all AH bulltes are 'generic' currently, it's impossible to depict 20mm HE impacts in the 'blasts' as we can see in 37 or 30mm guns - since 20mm cannons had mixed ammo belts of AP and HE shells, but AH doesn't have mixed ammo belts at all!
Thus, all in all, Wilbus, you were just unlucky. Some consolation may be found in that if AH had a better, more sophisticated form of showing damage, then the situation might have been a lot better to you. However, in the current AH, all damage to the cockpit glass is in "hole"s. There is no intermediate level of damage that effects performance - cannon shells don't rip surfaces, and AP shells can't hit cables or rods.
Let's hope AH can update its form of basic damage modelling and ammo belt soon enough.
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Rgr that Kweassa, on most of it atleast.
Not all hit sprites were 20mm no BUT there were atleast 5 20mm hits judging from smoke puffs. Had those been Hispanos instead the plane would've blown up.
As for the dammage modell I completely agree with you, I am one of those who have been requesting an improved dammage modell for years now.
Before I used to think that a dammage modell similair to Il2 would be too advanced for an Online sim but Targetware has clearly proven that is not the case.
Simple fact is that the only thing AH really lacks is a modern DM and thus some weapons have a clear and superior advantage which they wouldn't have otherwise.
More over, there were 5 20mm hits as far as I can tell from the smoke puffs + numerous 12.7mm hits (judging from flashes in the film).
Check the film and you will see what angle I fired from, it was not the same angle. I fired from more or less the side and slightly up under his belly so most of the hits were directly from the side or bellow. Those hits should've atleast have taken off a flap.
Second, when I got pissed off on channel 200 afterwards saying that I hit his cockpit I got the reply that he only had a single hole in him if I understood it the right way.
That is after atleast 13-15 hits of which atleast 5 were 20mm.
He should have more visable dammage after this, even if it means purly the eye-candy dammage we got in 2.00.
Unlucky? Yeah maybe, but give me, or anyone else, a good reason to fly the planes where you are often "unlucky" enough to have the enemy fly away without much more then a scratch.
While there can be a number of reason to why he didn't take any dammage what so ever there are more reasons to why he SHOULD have taken dammage.
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Incidently, as you mentioned Targetware..
..what kind of DM do they have? Something like the IL-2 series? (ie.. a DM with 'internal' components such as cables, rods, oil pans, supercharger gears, cylinderheads + the usual 'external' components)
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Kweassa, this is a dammage report from Target Tobruk. I copied this one from the forum as I don't have any reports on my computer at the moment.
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.7 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.5 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm APIT, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.7 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.7 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta v-stab: pen incen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 3.7 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 1.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm API, after 3 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen incen 3.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta water injection tank: pen 6.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta crew_1: pen 1.7 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #4: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: 0.1 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left h-stab: pen 0.9 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 2.2 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm API, after 2 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 3.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: pen 6.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta Central Wing: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #4: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta forward fuselage: pen incen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 1.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 2 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.9 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm APIT, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 1.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta crew_1: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: 0.0 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta right inner wing: pen 0.9 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta right bomb: 1.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta right inner wing: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: 0.0 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta right inner wing: pen 0.6 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 1.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left h-stab: pen 0.2 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 3 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 4.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 2.2 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm APIT, after 2 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen incen 2.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm APIT, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: 0.1 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.6 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 3.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta water injection tank: pen 6.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta crew_1: pen 1.6 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #4: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: 0.1 kJ
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Originally posted by Wilbus
(A) Not all hit sprites were 20mm no BUT there were atleast 5 20mm hits judging from smoke puffs. Had those been Hispanos instead the plane would've blown up.
(B) Before I used to think that a dammage modell similair to Il2 would be too advanced for an Online sim but Targetware has clearly proven that is not the case.
(A) Do 'smoke puffs' = a direct hit? I don't know. I can tell you I fly Seafire now and Spit V before and many times I have seen 6+ hit sprites, "plane parts flying off", etc... and got gotton a kill. Don't know if any other damage was done but nothing visable. Those were all cannon hits.
(B) I haven't tried Targetware, do they have 500+ in one arena?
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AFAIK there is nothing but direct hits. Simple fact is that 20mm smoke puffs indicate explosion. He had 5x20mm explosions in his Spit, be it on the surface (which I don't think is modelled) or detonation inside the actual plane.
No targetware don't have 500+ plauers in the arena, neither does AH very often anymore ;)
But I understand your point of view, however, Targetware is designed as a massive online multiplayer flight game (sim depening on what data pack) so I am quite sure their goal is several hundred players and that the engine supports it.
Don't wanna mix in TW here, no need to, just saying that AH's DM is old, if you (not you in person DipStick) can't see that just look at how WB worked in 1995. Same general idea, "shoot of a part and this happens". While I am quite sure AH's DM is far far ahead of what WB was back then and what WB is now it is still.... old.
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Wilbus,
I seem to recall that if a Hispano hit is rated at a value of 1 then the Ho-5 is rated at .71 and the hardest hitting machinegun, the Browning .50, is a .31.
I am not certain, but i seem to recall those numbers.
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Rgr Karnak, never heard those numbers or heard anything about it but will take your word for it.
Like I said above, and you said above, this is more of a general DM issue then a single gun issue. Problem is the "uber" guns win so much by this while some guns are just left out as piss poor weapons.
Easy stall and handeling are not the only reasons people fly Spits.
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That's Karnak, not kweassa :D
ps) ah, after seeing that text report.. I get the general idea.
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DUH! Sorry bout that both of you, bit tired. Edited the post above.
Kweassa. I might add that every such hit has an effect on how the plane performs, it can be "felt".
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Wilbus: Ill do a break down of the film to see what bullets hit. But ill bet you just had an unlucky burst that falls at the outside of chances for damage.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Wilbus: Ill do a break down of the film to see what bullets hit. But ill bet you just had an unlucky burst that falls at the outside of chances for damage.
HiTech
Actually HT I bet so too, and I really thought so from the beginning untill I checked the film carefully (whereafater I decided to make the post and check hits offline).
It just ticked me off as there was no dammage what so ever for him, not even a tiny little flap :cry
and Thanks!
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HT any more info about the break down of the film? Would be interesting to know.
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(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/1/20mm.jpg)
If I were a plane, I would want to have the hispano.
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And they said size doesn't matter BAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Wilbus
OH Btw, why the "IN teresting"? :D
because all the cool people do that. :rolleyes:
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Wil, in that film, you have all your guns firing. It looks like you did land 20mm hits, but also MG' hits can be seen. From my pov anyways.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/1/20mm.jpg)
If I were a plane, I would want to have the hispano.
The MG151 round is the same size as the Hispano. The Hispano has a bit more powder behind the projectile however.
I believe somebody did an analysis of the MG151 (with mixed belt ammo, which AH doesn't seem to have) and it found that even with mixed belt ammo the MG151 was still as hard-hitting as hispanos. I believe the individual HE rounds do a little more damage than hipanos but they are averaged out by AP rounds (I think -- I'm going from memory here)
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From flying AH I would say the MG 151s in AH are about 75%-80% as powerful as Hispanos on the Spitfire.
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I've had many single-ping hispano kills. It literally ONLY takes one ping on almost any aircraft (save the really tough ones like corsiar or f6f or p47) to rip a wing off. However I regularly have to hit 3+ rounds of MG151 on a wing to rip it off, so I'd say about 50% as strong (rough guess, going by experience)
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Actually Morph look again, and look at the picture I posted, there were atleast 5x20mm hits and another 8-10 MG hits. Best way is to view his plane in slow motion and from the top to see most of the hits.
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In AH1 tests vs buildings showed the N1K2's Type 99 Model 2's to be 99% as destructive as Hispanos in AH. The Ho-5 was at the low end of the 20mm cannon with 71% of the Hispano's power. The MG151/20 was somewhere in the 85% or 80%. range as I recall.
As an example, I well remember landing 10 hits on an La-7 (the hits were individual hits over a period of time and easy to count) while flying a Typhoon and not one single thing broke on the La-7.
J_A_B and I tested Hispano hits a bit and found that these numbers were consitant from short range Hispano hits:
2 Hispano hits removes the tail of a P-51D.
2 Hispano hits removes the tail of a Bf110G-2
3 Hispano hits removes the tail of a Mosquito Mk VI.
14 Hispano hits removes the tail of a Lancaster Mk III.
17 Hispano hits removes the tail of a B-17G.
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20 x 110 hispano
Average Velocity 880 m/sec (HEI)
20x110 Hispano generated 47-50,000 joules
Mauser MG 151/20 20 x 82
Average Velocity 710 m/sec (HEI)
20x82 MG 151 generated 29,000 joules
Japanese Ho-5 20 x 94
Average Velocity 730 m/sec (HEI)
The 20x94 only generated 29,000 joules, but it was severely downloaded because of the weak gun action caused by the use of low-grade steels.
It is a well known fact of the superiority held by the 20mm hispano in all aspects... In all aspects. In real life and in the game.
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where did you get that data morph ?
Pretty spercific
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There is an interesting thread about this (ta152 thread?) Morpheus, saying that the Minen shells actually packed more punch then either Hispano Mk II or V. Late war minen shells were even better.
Not sure which thread it is. The Mg151/20 minen shells packed a far better punch than the HE Shells of the Hispano. Granted the Hispano had better trajectory thanks to velocity but Mg151 did more dammage when it hit thanks to HE.
Acording to that thread atleast, will see if I can dig it up. Or does Karnak know? Think you are in that thread aswell.
Btw Morph, this thread really isn't about what gun should pack the most punch. What it is about is that no fighter should fly away unharmed after 5x20mm hits (and yes, there were atleast 5x20mm hits judging from smoke puffs). Still, I find it anoying that, after all those hits, he had no dammage, I lost my tail with 2 pings (and they even sounded like 50 cal but must have been 20mm).
I am not saying the Ho-5 should be more devestating then the Hispano, I am quite sure it shouldn't be, maybe not even close. I am just asking Hitech if he has done the "break down" of the film yet... I am just interestead in knowing wether my hit tests are accurate or not and wether this could have been some kind of Rubber bullet effect (drkBlue said he saw two holes in him, after 13-15 hits from my side).
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Moepheus,
Well, the Hispano did not have an advantage in all aspects.
It jammed more often than the MG151/20. I don't know about the Ho-5, though the Ho-5 has a good reputation from what I hear.
It was significantly heavier than is desirable in a 20mm aircraft cannon. That is a flaw the Browning Heavy Machinegun shared.
It's rate of fire was lower than the MG151/20 and much lower than the Ho-5.
It's ammunition was bulky in comparison, thus limiting the number of rounds able to be carried.
Wilbus,
Yes, the minen shells would do have about 30% more destructive power than a Hispano HE hit by Tony Williams numbers. The place the Hispano would have shone is using AP ammo as a ground attack gun, but I;ve never seen evidence that the Hispano was used with AP ammo.
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The Semi-Armour Piercing HEI 20mm hispano had a far greater impact on armour than did any of the 20mm projectiles produced by the germans. Late war was even worse for the germans as they did not have the resources needed to produce mass quanties of high grade ammunition. In fact its a known fact that that by wars end they were packing their cases with saw dust due to powder shortages.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Moepheus,
Well, the Hispano did not have an advantage in all aspects.
.
I should have clarified myself here. The 20x110 mm was far superior to any of the 20mm cartriges of WW2.
They also produced a seat for every ass. Dont think for a minute they just produced 2 kinds of bullets... SAP/HEI and tracers. They offered a wide veriety of rounds for many different jobs.
The germans, by wars end, did not have the capabilities to offer this. if you want, I can dig up diagrams of the hispano and the aray of projectiles used.
The japs where hurting so bad by the time the the Ho5 was put to use, that the guns were exploding due to the lack of quality steal. For this reason, they had to dramaticly download their 20mm ammunition.
The Hispano (Was and still) is to the Ho-5 what a Corvette is to a Yugo
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Sawdust? They also say that the Germans loaded their 30mm Mk 103s and Mk 108s with solid lead slugs. Doesn't mean it really happened.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Sawdust? They also say that the Germans loaded their 30mm Mk 103s and Mk 108s with solid lead slugs. Doesn't mean it really happened.
Do your homework. Its no mystery or myth. Yes due to shortages, they decreased powder content and to prevent detonation they packed the rest of the case with sawdust. This is not an uncommon practice even today.
The reason for the sawdust, again was to prevent detonation. When you have a big long case, and the powder is laying towards the front of the case rather than packed up against the primer.. When the primer ignites, the powder at the front of the case will blow back. If the powder is laying along the entire case itself, the powder will ignite and blow upwards. When you have the powder packed against the primer it will blow out (towards the bullet) thus pushing the bullet out. Loading of sawdust to prevent case detonation is done to this day. Its been done sinse the 1800s when the metalic cartirige came into its own. And it was done in WW2.
Many of the japanese guns had their breaches blown apart due to improper downloading techniques of their 20mm Ho5's cartiges. Its bad medicine. And when done improperly, can have very bad effects.
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interesting! I always thought that the powder simply burned from the source, and while it was burning the gasses started expanding, and that in theory it never mattered if the powder was packed or on its side. I always thought if the powder was loose and burned it would still shoot the bullet down the barrel.
Why, then, do they shake cartridges to mix the powder back up? Is that for something different?
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I am not sure what you mean by shaking cartriges up.
I can say that if you have powder that has gotten wet, or moist and then dries inside the case, it becomes all or partially a solid mass... What has happened is it will partially ignite the powder, pushing the bullet down the barrel but not all the way out. It is most times, enough force to cylcle the action in a machine gun. The bullet will "stove pipe". (In a machine gun the RoF is fast enough that detection of this occurring is virtually imposible.) When the next round fires the gun will explode. Either by omiting enough backpressure to blow the breach off of the gun or turn the barrel into a banana peal.
I have Sako action at work from a 223 that detonated. It blew the barrel 50 yards down range, the forearm on the stock splintered into a million peices and split the action into 4 different pieces. I will take a picture of it tomorrow for you. What Im getting at is, that happend from a 223. A tiny little nothing compared to a 20mm.
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Finaly got a chance to debug the film.
Results were exatly as expected. You had 6 hits.
2 MG hits 4 canon hits the
1 Cannon inside of the right wing.
2 mgs on the left wing
3 cannon spread accross the fuse.
I.E. no bug, just spread over an area.
HiTech
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Thanks :)
Why do I see so many flashes? And why do I see them on far more places then just 6 places? Something to do with a hit consisting of multiple flashes?
Also, the smoke puffs. I guess 5 smoke puffs (looking like 20mm) really isn't 5 hits? Could it be more or less?
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Wilbus: I hadn't noticed that before, looked into it and it is a bug with the film view. Basicly your hitsare recorded in the film, but the bullets being launched in the film are also striking the plane and creating more flashes.
HiTech
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OK! Thanks again for replies. Helps alot as I now know films can't be entirely trusted untill the bug has been fixed.
Btw, is there any chance of the "debug" of the film you are using to be released with the film viewer or is this Debug made for the rest of the game aswell?
Would be kind of nice to be able to see where we hit and with what and how many times.
I think it would also helps alot against whining and other conspiracy theories.
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Originally posted by Krusty
interesting! I always thought that the powder simply burned from the source, and while it was burning the gasses started expanding, and that in theory it never mattered if the powder was packed or on its side. I always thought if the powder was loose and burned it would still shoot the bullet down the barrel.
Why, then, do they shake cartridges to mix the powder back up? Is that for something different?
Having what is termed a low density load in a cartridge makes for an inconsistent and sometimes dangerous weapon. For example, it is common to use very small or light charges in certain types of cartridges for use in competition. These light loads allow the powder to lay in the bottom of the brass case, AWAY from the primer and flash hole. You get very inconsistent ignition that way. Pressure can vary as much as 20,000 psi. Most often, dacron fiber or something of that ilk is used as a filler to keep the powder tightly packed at the back of the case directly over the flash hole in front of the primer.
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"The Semi-Armour Piercing HEI 20mm hispano had a far greater impact on armour than did any of the 20mm projectiles produced by the germans."
The German AP was inferior due to less projectile weight and MV. Surprising? Hardly.
However, the 20mm Minengeschoss was designed to blow a wing off. Hold on to your shining armoured set as it plummets towards earth. :D
BTW AP is not much good close range as it is likely to overpenetrate and doing so it releases only a fraction of its energy on target. I'd rather use HE.
-C+
PS. Which gun packs more punch on target in 800 yards 1sec burst? Hisso or 151/20? Presume all projectiles hit.
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Originally posted by hitech
Wilbus: I hadn't noticed that before, looked into it and it is a bug with the film view. Basicly your hitsare recorded in the film, but the bullets being launched in the film are also striking the plane and creating more flashes.
HiTech
EUREEKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You think we see the same visual cues in the MA in real time? I suspect we do. After multiple flights and film reviews.
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Wilbus: I hadn't noticed that before, looked into it and it is a bug with the film view. Basicly your hitsare recorded in the film, but the bullets being launched in the film are also striking the plane and creating more flashes.
HiTech
Interesting.
This means the film viewer is a doubtful source for analyzing just exactly what happens in engagements, since what you're seeing in the film viewer in regards to bullet hits and strike effects, are inconsistent to what really happens during the actual event.
It provides a hunk of explanations for some of the older discussions such as people claiming multiple 30mm shots do not harm planes - ie) they missed the shot during the actual event, but the film recording of that event may show as multiple 30mms being hit.
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So is it that to cause damage eg. on wing the 20mms have to hit the area several times in certain "time window" to cause catastrophic damage?
I mean that lobbing a 20mm hit every now and then does not accumulate on that part. Or does it? That would mean that if there is accumulated damage already on the wing it could be cut of even with a few MG rounds?
-C+
PS. "but the film recording of that event may show as multiple 30mms being hit."
One is enough if it works as it is supposed to.
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Originally posted by Charge
One is enough if it works as it is supposed to.
Depends on what is being shot. A fighter? Sure, but I can't recall a fighter taking a 30mm round to the wing and not losing it in AH. A bomber? That would probably take a single hit.
As to your comments about Hispano AP rounds, they were seldom, if ever, used. Normally Hispano's fired HEI rounds, while not as destructive as a German mine shell, they were more destructive than the standard German HE round.
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Charge a 20mm hit (or any hit) will count as dammage. That dammage will remain untill next hit is taken, no matter how long it takes.
If you hit a plane with 3x20mm in the wing and nothing happens and he runs away. 30 minutes later you engage the same guy again and out 2x MG rounds in him chances are that those two rounds will bring the dammage up to 100% and cut his wing off.
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"Sure, but I can't recall a fighter taking a 30mm round to the wing and not losing it in AH."
Fly 109s and you'll notice it happening. It IS frustrating.
"As to your comments about Hispano AP rounds, they were seldom, if ever, used. Normally Hispano's fired HEI rounds, while not as destructive as a German mine shell, they were more destructive than the standard German HE round."
I thought they (AP) were always half of the belting. In the beginning they were 50/50 AP/Ball and in the end they were 50/50 AP/HE?
One source claims HET - AP - HE - AP.
-C+
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Belt setup depended on what plane and what gun that was used Charge and even in some cases what pilot flew it.
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I've been shooting off my 30mm loads in AH since beta, I don't think I've ever busted a 30mm nut on an opponent's wing without him losing it entirely or the wingtip. The worst thing is when you hit the fuselage near the engine and the guy flies off and ditches without his engine and without getting the kill on him.
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BTW How often were MG151 20mm's loaded with "minen" shells? Why don't we have that in AH?
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Originally posted by Mime
BTW How often were MG151 20mm's loaded with "minen" shells? Why don't we have that in AH?
We do, but only every third or fourth round as I recall. But because AH averages the damage each round does across the belt it just means that each shot from an MG151/20 does a little bit more than standard HE and a lot less than a mine shell. The Hispano benefits from this as the ammo was homogenous.
I would like to see detailed belt loading in AH.
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We do, but only every third or fourth round as I recall. But because AH averages the damage each round does across the belt it just means that each shot from an MG151/20 does a little bit more than standard HE and a lot less than a mine shell. The Hispano benefits from this as the ammo was homogenous.
Well, that's the theory, at least. Ofcourse, no confirmation/denial exists in the official sense IIRC. Personally I also think that it's the only explanation as to why some 20mms are so unbelievably more effective than others. ;)
I would like to see detailed belt loading in AH.
Yup.
Aside from the old DM, that would probably be one of those 'whopper' sized changes that could bring AH2 forward a large step.
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"BTW How often were MG151 20mm's loaded with "minen" shells? Why don't we have that in AH?"
Most common load-out:
20 mm (MG-FF, MG 151/20)
* 2 Minengeschoß m. Zerl.
* 2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl
oder Brandgranatpatronen
* 1 Panzersprenggranatpatrone o. Zerl
oder Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phospor) o. Zerl.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-am.html
-C+
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Charge,
I would like to see that belt modeled in AH, with the different rounds tracked individually for purposes of damage.
I am not as keen on allowing the player to setup custom belts as that would simply devolve into, for example, 100% minen shells, or whatever the most effective round for a given gun is.
Just model each gun with it's most common belt and model and track each round individually for purposes of damage.