Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on December 01, 2005, 06:26:23 PM
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seems pretty darned harsh to me. Its not like the guy killed a child or anything....
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/01/australia.singapore.reut/index.html
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Wow.
Someone finally getting a real punishment for comitting a crime. Singapore is now on my cool list.
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I'm not sure how I feel about this, pretty harsh punishment. My brother has been to singapor many times and says it's one of the cleanest places he's ever been to.
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I agree...I mean whats a little heroin between friends.
Don't feel sorry for him at all, heroin has runied way to many lives
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It may be considered pretty harsh punishment, but the laws are on the books. If one chooses to ignore or be ignorant of the laws, well, sorry.
Wasn't it in Singapore some years ago that some guy was caned for valdizing cars or something? People were in an outrage about that. But once again, the laws were on the books. If you do not like the laws, either move, refrain from passing through places with laws that don't suit your whacked perception of how things should be, or follow the laws.
Simple really.
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Singapore is one of my favorite places on earth to visit. If it wasn't for the Switzerland sized cost of living it would be perfect, the food is some of the best in Asia and it really has a wonderful blend of the best of Asian and British culture, I seriously considered doing a church plant there in late 90s.
Admittedly, the laws, like those of Malaysia and China (the two main ethnic communities on the Island) are strict. Westerners who are used to lax laws tend to find them to be a bit much, but everyone generally admits that things like Violent Crime, Litering and the like are virtually non-existent on the Island. Also, while the punishments tend to be harsh, I found few examples where real rights were restricted or eliminated. Generally, if you aren't actually involved in crime and you can afford to live there, you aren't going to have many problems in Singapore.
In the case of Nguyen Tuong Van, he was admittedly smuggling several hundred thousand dollars worth of heroin for dealers, and as someone has already pointed out, that would probably have worked out to several ODs and quite a few ruined lives.
Having known guys who did similar stupid things (I roomed with a guy in University who had made cash to travel the world by smuggling gold and drugs between Myanmar and Hong Kong) I've found that smugglers generally realize that the penalty for their actions in most SE Asian countries is going to be death or a long time rotting in jail, but choose to go for the money anway.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Donzo
It may be considered pretty harsh punishment, but the laws are on the books. If one chooses to ignore or be ignorant of the laws, well, sorry.
Wasn't it in Singapore some years ago that some guy was caned for valdizing cars or something? People were in an outrage about that. But once again, the laws were on the books. If you do not like the laws, either move, refrain from passing through places with laws that don't suit your whacked perception of how things should be, or follow the laws.
Simple really.
yea it was a teenager and he was spray painting cars. My friends dad was a LT.Col. in the Army and told us once "in Turkey, if the police catch you drinking and driving the pull you out of the car and put a bullet in your head, THEY DONT HAVE A DUI PROBLEM" This may or may not be true but it was funny the way he said it.
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Why would anyone want to transport drugs to Singapore... After all, even I (from here far off, never been there) have heard that they hang every drug courier. It even says so on their (Singapore customs) web page (http://www.customs.gov.sg/travel/travel1.html#Good_and_Services_Tax_(GST)):
WARNING:
DEATH FOR DRUG TRAFFICKERS UNDER SINGAPORE LAW.
Doesn't leave much room for negotiations, does it?
Edit: Well said, Seagoon.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
My friends dad was a LT.Col. in the Army and told us once "in Turkey, if the police catch you drinking and driving the pull you out of the car and put a bullet in your head, THEY DONT HAVE A DUI PROBLEM" This may or may not be true but it was funny the way he said it.
Maybe in the past, however I believe the times have changed over there.
They'd never have a slightest chance to apply to EU if they'd shoot drunk drivers.
...of course it's just a minor problem if the prisoners gets abused.
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Smuggled drugs into country that kills people for smuggling drugs, got caught, got killed. Yep, sounds about right.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Maybe in the past, however I believe the times have changed over there.
They'd never have a slightest chance to apply to EU if they'd shoot drunk drivers.
...of course it's just a minor problem if the prisoners gets abused.
Yea this was probably more of the 70's than recent. Like I said it was how he said it that was funny.
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The policy in most Asian countries around that area is the same. Everyone here, and everyone in Aussie knows it.
The guy is actually Vietnamese, on an Aussie passport. He did it because his brother got in debt with some Vietnamese gang in Australia, and was about to get kneecapped. That was his excuse, he did it for his brother - which btw, removes all doubt of guilt.
1/.2 a kg of herion, 26000 doses worth they reckon.
Booo fluff'n hooo.
:aok singapore
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Originally posted by Donzo
It may be considered pretty harsh punishment, but the laws are on the books. If one chooses to ignore or be ignorant of the laws, well, sorry.
Feel sorry for the person who has drugs put in there suitecase without there knowledge:confused:
It happends more than you know thats why they ask you at the counter has you suitecase been in your sight the whole time?
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Another thing thats always bugged me.
Why are drugs illegal? tobaco and booze kill far more people than drugs do so why are they still here ? Oh thats right there heavly taxed.
You know its legall for a woman to abort her child saying she has a right to her body.
Well then why cant someone if there dumb enough to shoot herion its there body.
And if you made it legal crime drug crime would all but go away as there would be no need for the illegal stuff.
Simplistic? you bet but it does warrant some thinking.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Another thing thats always bugged me.
Why are drugs illegal? tobaco and booze kill far more people than drugs do so why are they still here ? Oh thats right there heavly taxed.
You know its legall for a woman to abort her child saying she has a right to her body.
Well then why cant someone if there dumb enough to shoot herion its there body.
And if you made it legal crime drug crime would all but go away as there would be no need for the illegal stuff.
Simplistic? you bet but it does warrant some thinking.
Would you employ a crack addict? Theres a big difference in someones productivity who goes for a smoke every couple of hours to someone whos shooting up every few hours.
Same goes for alcohol, generally its limited in its scope of effects. Even so, those that abuse it end up in the same boat as drug users, ie, unemployed, turn to crime etc.
\You're comparing apples and oranges. Legalizing hardcore drugs will not make the associated problems disappear, it'll just make the problem grow.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Feel sorry for the person who has drugs put in there suitecase without there knowledge:confused:
It happends more than you know thats why they ask you at the counter has you suitecase been in your sight the whole time?
Noooooooooo, they don't ask that. They ask if you packed your own case.
If you travel to Asia there are services which will shrink wrap your bags at the airport for you. In Bangkok they seal your bags (customs on exit) with plastic straps as well.
This guy also admited his guilt, so nice try no cigar.
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Yea, the law might make perfectly good sense if you look over the fact that Singapore is in the drug business. :)
"The main issue was the Traders Hotel, which was built by Asia World, a construction company owned by the Lo family Lo Hsien Han and his son Steven Law, in conjunction with Singapore interests," Mr Linter said. Lo Hsien Han is widely recognised as one of the most powerful drug lords in Burma and was a frequent visitor to Singapore until recently. His son Steven Law, who has been barred from entering the US on suspicion of involvement in drug trafficking, has an office in Singapore.
The Singapore Government's joint venture with the drug lord came through the Myanmar Fund, set up to channel investment into Burma, which has since been shut down. Singapore's involvement was through its billion-dollar Government Investment Corporation.
Professor Desmond Ball, of the Australian National University's Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, said many Burmese drugs lords used Singapore for banking.
"Some of Burma's closest economic relations are with Singapore," Professor Ball said "A lot of electronic transaction services in Burma are run through Singapore."
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Originally posted by SOB
Smuggled drugs into country that kills people for smuggling drugs, got caught, got killed. Yep, sounds about right.
just what I was thinking.
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Originally posted by Panzzer
Why would anyone want to transport drugs to Singapore... After all, even I (from here far off, never been there) have heard that they hang every drug courier. It even says so on their (Singapore customs) web page (http://www.customs.gov.sg/travel/travel1.html#Good_and_Services_Tax_(GST)):
WARNING:
DEATH FOR DRUG TRAFFICKERS UNDER SINGAPORE LAW.
Doesn't leave much room for negotiations, does it?
Edit: Well said, Seagoon.
It says that on the immigration card as well, the one you sign before you get off the plane.
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There was a call for a minutes silence when he swung this morning....WTF??? the guy is a convicted criminal, honouring him is out of the question.
Best place for Australians who think smuggling heroin out of Asia into Australia is OK, is weighing down some Singaporean rope.
He was fully aware of the risk he was taking.
This isnt the first time it has happened, Chambers and Barlow, two Australians hanged in 1986 in Malaysia for the same crime.
Chapelle Corby, hot young chick from the Gold Coast, currently serving 20 years in a Bali prison for having 4 kg of pot in her luggage.
Michelle Lee, Aussie model, just got let out after a few weeks in prison after being caught in a Bali nightclub with two exctasy tabs, then released after it was found she was with the son of an important Asian government minister.
Sooner or later, folks will realise that the Asian authorities are deadly serious about not letting us smuggle drugs through their airports.
Good for them.
By the way, he wasnt trying to take heroin into Singapore, he was trying to get it through Singapore airport and into Australia, the reason for that being that opium poppies dont grow in Australia, so all heroin here is imported.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
Sooner or later, folks will realise that the Asian authorities are deadly serious about not letting us smuggle drugs through their airports.
Good for them.
LMAO Yea and Madonna is a virgin. :)
Singapore is in the heroin distribution business. The only people who are paying the high price are those not going through the proper "channels". In other words the little guys who are not in the druglords system. A simple process of eliminating any competition or turf invasion.
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Originally posted by Scherf
It says that on the immigration card as well, the one you sign before you get off the plane.
In big red letters, right? (I haven't been there, but my brother has been there twice - on business trips, not smuggling drugs :)).
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Originally posted by Bluedog
Sooner or later, folks will realise that the Asian authorities are deadly serious about not letting us smuggle drugs through their airports.
Good for them.
They are serious?
As long as it isnt a well connected drug user then they are serious.
If someone uses drugs it is their choice. We can offer rehab for those that want it. But the hypocrisy of the drug war is very apparent.
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Well, they're deadly serious about not letting Aussies get away with it, be they male or female, caucasion or asian.
If they catch you, they kill you.
Mebbe they dont like our accents or sense of humour or somethin'.
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Originally posted by Yeager
seems pretty darned harsh to me. Its not like the guy killed a child or anything....
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/01/australia.singapore.reut/index.html
It's not harsh. It's immoral.
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Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Edit... Is it possible to actually have a discussion around here that is free of ad hominems?
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Originally posted by Sandman
It's not harsh. It's immoral.
I'd say that hanging a drug mule for transiting through your country is quite obscene
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
I'd say that hanging a drug mule for transiting through your country is quite obscene
Tronsky
I'd say trafficking 26000 doses of heroin is far more obscene.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Another thing thats always bugged me.
Why are drugs illegal? tobaco and booze kill far more people than drugs do so why are they still here ? Oh thats right there heavly taxed.
You know its legall for a woman to abort her child saying she has a right to her body.
Well then why cant someone if there dumb enough to shoot herion its there body.
And if you made it legal crime drug crime would all but go away as there would be no need for the illegal stuff.
Simplistic? you bet but it does warrant some thinking.
This should be another topic. The guy knew the risks, and took his chances anyway. I don't feel sorry for him. Btw, I do tend to agree with you.
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If they hanged every person who gets caught with possession we'd soon have no drug problem at all. I'm all for it.
Junkies and drug related crime are the most disgusting thing I know.
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Siaf is that you?
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Junkies and drug related crime are the most disgusting thing I know.
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Well...this is a loaded subject now isn't it........
Simply smuggling drugs is not comparable to raping and murdering a child while under the influence of drugs.....yet it takes the smuggler to enable the drug frenzied rapist.
I believe that punishment of death should be only for the most devastating crimes of physical violence......
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Originally posted by Panzzer
In big red letters, right? (I haven't been there, but my brother has been there twice - on business trips, not smuggling drugs :)).
I've flown into Singapore twice - once from Britain and once from Indonesia. The warning "Death for Drug Traffickers" is indeed on the landing card in large capitals - can't remember the colour! Not only that, but when the flight attendants are about to hand them out, the PA announcement included the caveat "We draw your attention to the warning given on the front of the card". That announcement is, presumably, to give any would-be traffickers one last chance to flush it down the bog. On the day I arrived from Britain, a 27yo trafficker was hanged in that very same jail for the same offence.Singapore is in the heroin distribution business.
Wouldn't have thought so - are you sure you've got the right country? Have you ever been there? At less than 250 square miles I would have thought it was too small for poppy growing. However, their trading partners include Golden Triangle opiate producing countries like Burma, known to launder money through Singapore banks.
Back to the original point - there's no point in having a law if it's not enforced. If the subject of this thread had got away with it, that would be the signal to thousands of others that they might get away with it too. They have a similarly tough law on gun crime - have a gun, automatic long jail sentence. Use one in a crime, even longer jail sentence - not sure of the exact lengths, but you wouldn't want to know. But (and this is the bit I do remember) if the gun is actually fired, then even if no-one was hurt, it's an automatic death sentence.
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Yeager I think the persons who want to make profit from the abovementioned people are the worst of the criminals. They supply the market and doing so create new market and new victims.
The junkies are far less criminal in the sense that their addiction runs them, a smuggler gets run only by greed and does his crime with (often) a clear head.
The capital punishment is only bad for one reason. The justice system is not perfect and the wrong person may end up getting hanged. It has happened that passengers have unkowingly become mules when the smugglers slipped an extra packet in their luggage only to retrieve it back later by force.
I always keep very good eye on my hand baggage while traveling not only for terrorists but also for drug smugglers.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The capital punishment is only bad for one reason. The justice system is not perfect and the wrong person may end up getting hanged. It has happened that passengers have unkowingly become mules when the smugglers slipped an extra packet in their luggage only to retrieve it back later by force.
I always keep very good eye on my hand baggage while traveling not only for terrorists but also for drug smugglers.
Indeed, and a case like this was dramatised in the mini series Bangkok Hilton (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096540/).
A few years ago a couple of stupid/naive English girls got themselves into some hot water in a situation like this - carrying someone else's luggage and getting caught. I believe it was Thailand, which has a monarchy, and the King of Thailand granted a pardon. They were extremely lucky.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
If they hanged every person who gets caught with possession we'd soon have no drug problem at all. I'm all for it.
Junkies and drug related crime are the most disgusting thing I know.
WoW!!!
Junkies and drug crimes are the most disgusting thing you know?
Im incredulous as I can think of a 100 things worse.
Like child abuse, rape, murder, spousal abuse and many many more. Drugs and junkies arent even in the top 100.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Yeager I think the persons who want to make profit from the abovementioned people are the worst of the criminals. They supply the market and doing so create new market and new victims.
The junkies are far less criminal in the sense that their addiction runs them, a smuggler gets run only by greed and does his crime with (often) a clear head.
In many cases I'd say the buyer is as much to blame, most users are not addicts(the addicts do consume most of the drugs though), and no one was an addict when they started taking drugs. If there's no pushing involved I don't find supplying any worse than buying. Supply and demand.
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Like child abuse, rape, murder, spousal abuse and many many more. Drugs and junkies arent even in the top 100.
I can see drug abuse to be a factor in all of your scenarios. When a person doesn't understand what he's doing anything is possible. Most spousal abuse cases are directly related to either drug or alcohol usage. Same goes with murders at least in Finland. Rape and child abuse I don't know about, probably that has more to do with the persons mental health problems.
In many cases I'd say the buyer is as much to blame, most users are not addicts(the addicts do consume most of the drugs though), and no one was an addict when they started taking drugs. If there's no pushing involved I don't find supplying any worse than buying. Supply and demand.
I support fully making even possession for personal use a crime. Same goes for buying. Hell if they outlawed buying sex how can it be legal to buy drugs? As what goes for the criminality of supply I think you're a bit off base there. The pushers are called pushers for a reason. Some of them hang next to schoolyards and offer 'free samples' to curious youngsters.
If that's not criminal I don't know what is.
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I see, they should have changed their law for this confused person
lol
don't play if you can't pay
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Originally posted by beet1e
Wouldn't have thought so
Now ain`t that a real schocker. :)
At less than 250 square miles I would have thought it was too small for poppy growing
The word was "distribution". Look it up if you are having a probelm grasping the concept.
However, their trading partners include Golden Triangle opiate producing countries like Burma, known to launder money through Singapore banks.
You actualy answered your own doubts. They also support the junta and the druglords. It`s a sham .
Back to the original point - there's no point in having a law if it's not enforced. If the subject of this thread had got away with it, that would be the signal to thousands of others that they might get away with it too.
Which they do on a daily basis, only on a much, much larger scale. Like I said it`s a sham. You just have to be in the right circles and have the right contacts. In Asia, as in the rest of the planet , the war on drugs is a total sham. Only the small guys are offered up as sacrafices for the naive to have a bone to chew on.
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well... I guess it could be said that if you are not a government sponsored a highly placed drug smuggler you will get the death penalty.
I sort of agree with the whiney liberal fartwinkle.... why not allow people to do as many drugs as they want? if they die they die... It's a womans (or a mans) right to choose? if they go to work on drugs the employer can fire em...or not. drive on drugs? lose your licence... what's the big deal?
sandman... do you ever add anything to a thread? I mean.... ever? Don't you have a geo to fill with cash or something?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I sort of agree with the whiney liberal fartwinkle.... why not allow people to do as many drugs as they want? if they die they die... It's a womans (or a mans) right to choose? if they go to work on drugs the employer can fire em...or not. drive on drugs? lose your licence... what's the big deal?
60%+ of all burglaries/robberies/thefts are drug related, meaning the suspect is usually committing the crime to finance a drug addiction. When that just-fired drug addict breaks into your house/car so that he/she can buy their next fix, then your opinion might change.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
The word was "distribution". Look it up if you are having a probelm grasping the concept.
No probelm, no probelm at all :p But how can Singapore distribute something that was never there in the first place? :rolleyes:
And I ask again - have you ever BEEN to Singapore, or any other part of SE Asia???
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Originally posted by Sandman
It's not harsh. It's immoral.
Im curious why my other post was deleted as a flame.
You think it's imoral to execute a criminal who broke a known law with a known penalty of death, yet you consider the abortion of an innocent fetus, who has broken no law and who is a viable human life, to be moral?
How do you figure one is moral and the other is not?
Thats not a flame, thats a question of how you are defining morality.
The guy was executed for breaking the law.
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If he was guilty..
Good for them..
If not..
:furious
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Originally posted by beet1e
No probelm, no probelm at all :p But how can Singapore distribute something that was never there in the first place? :rolleyes:/B]
Man you can play dumb when you want to. It never comes across real well, but...................Hmmmm.. ...........you are playing dumb aren`t you?
The Burma connection. Try to keep up, will ya?
And I ask again - have you ever BEEN to Singapore, or any other part of SE Asia???
The again part should have been your first clue. Notice it wasn`t answered the first time? You have entered a no-fly zone.:)
I guess you are on the path to explaining how your two trips to Singapore automaticaly makes you an authority on the subject, right?
Yups are a hoot.
The overinflated, pompous are a hoot.
Mix the two together and you get hilarious. :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
You think it's imoral to execute a criminal who broke a known law with a known penalty of death, yet you consider the abortion of an innocent fetus, who has broken no law and who is a viable human life, to be moral?
Where exactly did you get that impression?
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Darwin wins again!!
Foreigner running 26,000 doses of heroin in a country where even the flight attendants warn you that you'll end up dead...brilliant. What a thinker.
Nitwit self-absorbed punk thinks vandalizing cars, while a guest in another nation, is a hoot...then cries when they give him a good beating for it?
To me, at least, there is a distinct difference between running heroin in massive amounts (and paying the price) vs. inadvertantly running afoul of local law and being treated with undue harshness and inflexibility.
The arguement for or against capital punishment aside, why does a major drug runner deserve much in the way of advocates? This guy didn't just have a 'lil sumpthin' for himself stashed away...he was transporting in bulk!! Did he think it would be no big deal? I'll bet he knew exactly what he was getting into, and his only regret was getting caught...and dead.
Might consider the end result of 26000 doses of heroin vs. the end result of this hanging. Can't say that our system of dealing with drugs works real well, can ya?
I know no one is advocating giving this guy a fruit basket and sending him on his merry way, but I have a hard time giving a damn in this particular instance.
Good riddance to bad rubbish on this one.
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Originally posted by Donzo
It may be considered pretty harsh punishment, but the laws are on the books. If one chooses to ignore or be ignorant of the laws, well, sorry.
Wasn't it in Singapore some years ago that some guy was caned for valdizing cars or something? People were in an outrage about that. But once again, the laws were on the books. If you do not like the laws, either move, refrain from passing through places with laws that don't suit your whacked perception of how things should be, or follow the laws.
Simple really.
If you say so .... In the U.S. at least, there are soooooo many laws no one person can know them all ... it is impossible, and remember ... ignorance is no excuse. :huh
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
60%+ of all burglaries/robberies/thefts are drug related, meaning the suspect is usually committing the crime to finance a drug addiction. When that just-fired drug addict breaks into your house/car so that he/she can buy their next fix, then your opinion might change.
Well addiction mixing with the black market is bad..... don't ignore the facts of the 'Black Market', it is a violent underworld WITHOUT drugs, drugs simply make the problem worse adding in addiction.
Would they need so much money for these things if not for the insanely inflated black market prices?
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Hi Laz,
Originally posted by lazs2
well... I guess it could be said that if you are not a government sponsored a highly placed drug smuggler you will get the death penalty.
I sort of agree with the whiney liberal fartwinkle.... why not allow people to do as many drugs as they want? if they die they die... It's a womans (or a mans) right to choose? if they go to work on drugs the employer can fire em...or not. drive on drugs? lose your licence... what's the big deal?
sandman... do you ever add anything to a thread? I mean.... ever? Don't you have a geo to fill with cash or something?
lazs
We used to go over to Holland on the weekends to buy dope in Amsterdam. The experience of watching the junkies in parks, hungrily eyeing a bike they thought they might be able to steal to get another hit, or getting solicited by girls in their teens who were desperate for a fix almost made me stop doing drugs myself (I managed to avoid that by clinging to the arrogant belief "that could never happen to me".)
Today as a Pastor, I have worked with and counseled individuals, families, and children whose lives have been mangled by drug use. I've met mothers with children who are literally malnourished because they take food stamps and other items they get from WIC and the countless assistance programs and buy more crack. We had one mother who actually sold the formula and diapers we provided for her children. Making crack legal wouldn't make the problem better, it would make it far worse, and no we can't put all of these children into foster care while their mothers and fathers slowly commit suicide taking as many people as possible down with them.
You are also no doubt aware that the majority of DUIs don't stop driving merely because you pull their license. One of my friends in Seminary and his Pastor were both killed one evening by a driver stoned out of his mind whose license had been revoked long ago and who had already done time and "rehab" for these violations. He got a few years for that, but sans a major change in his heart, he'll be out and doing it again soon enough.
As bad as the "war on drugs" is, trust me no one, not you, not me, not the users, and certainly not their children deserves to live in a society with legalized narcotics.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
As bad as the "war on drugs" is, trust me no one, not you, not me, not the users, and certainly not their children deserves to live in a society with legalized narcotics.
Yeah... but we don't want narcotics. We want cannabis. ;)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
The Burma connection. Try to keep up, will ya?
Yeah? What about it? So Burma is a leading trading partner with Singapore - how does that make Singapore in the business of distribution of drugs? Did you know that most of the heroin that comes into America originates in China which, in case you didn't know, is America's third largest trading partner. Does this mean that America is in the business of drugs distribution?
Hey, great logic! :aok:
Duh... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sandman
Where exactly did you get that impression?
Sorry, it was a question......although that it what I got the impression of. Maybe I was wrong.
Btw, was great to see you in the game the other night. Thanks for the check six too. Be neat to fly with you again.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Laz,
We used to go over to Holland on the weekends to buy dope in Amsterdam. The experience of watching the junkies in parks, hungrily eyeing a bike they thought they might be able to steal to get another hit, or getting solicited by girls in their teens who were desperate for a fix almost made me stop doing drugs myself (I managed to avoid that by clinging to the arrogant belief "that could never happen to me".)
[...]
As bad as the "war on drugs" is, trust me no one, not you, not me, not the users, and certainly not their children deserves to live in a society with legalized narcotics.
well i've speant some time in NL as well
Opiates are bad... that's a given ... but what about the Black Market? It's bad wouldn't you agree? people will call Marjuana a gateway drug because it gets you into the black market..... Violence can even surround pot, but it's not addiction, it's not the pot, it's $money and the black market. Violence surrounds mafia crime as well, which is often centered around a black market.
So is mixing these two very volitile situations a good idea? Opiates/addiction with the black market? I'm not so sure.... We have methadone clinics, How many oxycotinin was Rush on agin?
Maybe not outright legal drugs, but if you allowed some meathod to break away form the black market we would all be much better served.... Don't ignore the issue by confuseing black market effects with drug effects. Addiction mixed with a black market is just a bad idea.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Sorry, it was a question......although that it what I got the impression of. Maybe I was wrong.
Btw, was great to see you in the game the other night. Thanks for the check six too. Be neat to fly with you again.
It was an interesting few flights. I've decided that I'm going to fly nothing but the A6M-5 this tour. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman
It was an interesting few flights. I've decided that I'm going to fly nothing but the A6M-5 this tour. :)
I like heading in low right to a fight and see how long I can last. That's gamey and all, but fun.
You ought to take a 190 A8 with me sometime. It's harder to live, but it can really shred stuff up pretty good.
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when I was a drug addict and criminal I loved that drugs were illegal... it really drove up the price. I didn't have to work and I got first choice on all the stolen property less industrious or vicious drug addicts would bring me...
I never seen a real drug addict work for long... I never seen a law deter a drug addict. I never seen a drug dealer who wanted drugs legalized.
just saying...
I don't have the answers but have come to believe that everyone who ever wanted to try drugs is trying em as we speak and anyone who is prone to becomeing an addict is gonna be one no matter what the laws...
to say that drug laws are keeping addicts from stealing from me is probly the most naive thing I have ever heard.
do not get me wrong... I have no more use for drugs than I do for abortion.... both are morally repugnant to me but... both are vices (or the results of vices) that we probly can't eliminate. I would rather fight the real criminals in the thing. rounding up druggies and experimenters is a waste of time... make drugs leagal and make abusing them against the law.... by abusing... I mean potential harm to others... like driving and working and such.
A dose of heroin should be cheap... give em as much as they want. Hell... if they can stand up after.... let em clean up trash in the park to get food stamps.. Let anyone thinking of doing drugs have that example instead of the noble rebel one we foster.
lazs
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The best drug detterent I've seen, and by drug I mean hard ones like heroin or meth, is to be around the crackheads and junkies while they are using.
I was always uncomfortable around the hardcore junkies, and cut my ties as soon as I could with them. It also made me not to want to touch that crap.
-SW
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Originally posted by lazs2
when I was a drug addict and criminal I loved that drugs were illegal... it really drove up the price. I didn't have to work and I got first choice on all the stolen property less industrious or vicious drug addicts would bring me...
I never seen a real drug addict work for long... I never seen a law deter a drug addict. I never seen a drug dealer who wanted drugs legalized.
just saying...
I don't have the answers but have come to believe that everyone who ever wanted to try drugs is trying em as we speak and anyone who is prone to becomeing an addict is gonna be one no matter what the laws...
to say that drug laws are keeping addicts from stealing from me is probly the most naive thing I have ever heard.
do not get me wrong... I have no more use for drugs than I do for abortion.... both are morally repugnant to me but... both are vices (or the results of vices) that we probly can't eliminate. I would rather fight the real criminals in the thing. rounding up druggies and experimenters is a waste of time... make drugs leagal and make abusing them against the law.... by abusing... I mean potential harm to others... like driving and working and such.
A dose of heroin should be cheap... give em as much as they want. Hell... if they can stand up after.... let em clean up trash in the park to get food stamps.. Let anyone thinking of doing drugs have that example instead of the noble rebel one we foster.
lazs
I. AGREE. WITH. LAZS.
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I bet that guy in singapore is dettered from ever trafficing drugs again.
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Originally posted by BigGun
I bet that guy in singapore is dettered from ever trafficing drugs again.
I think you're confusing deterrance and anti-recidivism.
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That too...
My guess is they have less people trafficing drugs with that penalty.
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Jackal,
Can you provide any hard information regarding the claim that the government of Singapore is systematically working with Burmese drug cartels to distribute Heroin world-wide? I mean aside from the oft-repeated claim that their banks are laundering money, because for that matter almost every financial center in the world is moving some dirty money around.
Please understand, I'm willing to believe your claim, but I'd like something more concrete than repeated assertions.
Sandy, Lazs -
Obviously making the distribution of something that people desire illegal creates a black market and drives up the cost. This is true for instance of nuclear material, child porn, exotic animal parts, human organs, slaves, illegal immigrant labor and so on. But I would say that the answer to the problem of trading in these items (which in some cases is rampant) and the impossibility of suppressing it is not to simply legalize the trade of these items to suppress the cost. True the cost would go down as would much of the crime associated with it, but the trade in the item itself would increase dramatically creating exponentially more of what you didn't want in the first place.
So for instance, Laz, you mentioned abortion. No one has ever attempted to argue that the legalization of abortion reduced the overall number of abortions. Exactly the opposite has occurred, to the point where 1 in 3 pregnancies in the United States ends in abortion. We have literally gone from thousands a year, to millions. If the practice was immoral to begin with, legalizing it did nothing to help that situation.
Unlike Canabis, narcotics are not things that most people can use recreationally, one is rarely an occasional social crack smoker, and to use heroin and crack is generally to enter into a cycle that ends in poverty, depression, degradation, crime, violence, and ultimately death. Therefore, pragmatic arguments "we can't beat this, so we need to stop fighting it" don't really apply. If its wrong its wrong. We'll never stamp out murder or pedophilia either, but legalizing something immoral is never the right answer. Personally, I am committed by my confession of faith to oppose narcotics as something that inherently tends towards the unlawful destruction of the life of others, but then again I also don't believe that people have the right to kill their offspring or themselves.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I can see drug abuse to be a factor in all of your scenarios. When a person doesn't understand what he's doing anything is possible. Most spousal abuse cases are directly related to either drug or alcohol usage. Same goes with murders at least in Finland. Rape and child abuse I don't know about, probably that has more to do with the persons mental health problems.
I support fully making even possession for personal use a crime. Same goes for buying. Hell if they outlawed buying sex how can it be legal to buy drugs? As what goes for the criminality of supply I think you're a bit off base there. The pushers are called pushers for a reason. Some of them hang next to schoolyards and offer 'free samples' to curious youngsters.
If that's not criminal I don't know what is.
Your are making statements as if they are fact.
Are you saying Rape Or any of the other crimes are with a high % caused by drug use? Maybe you mean that some crimes are committed while drunk or on other drugs?Please site the info for me..
People will use drugs no matter the law. And that is a historical fact. The war and propoganda on drugs is not working and never will. Even with death as the punishment. Another historical fact is that the percentage of hardcore drugs users as a % of population doesnt change by much thru the years.
We have laws against all the crimes Ive mentioned. When a person commits a burglary due to drugs then they can be prosecuted for Burglary plus the drug offense. It shouldnt matter whether they were on drugs or not. Just prosecute the actual crime. If someone wants off drugs then treat it like the disease it is and offer help.
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Originally posted by Silat
People will use drugs no matter the law.
and people will drive drunk, and people will fiddle with kiddies, and people will rob, and people will steal... it doesn't mean we have to legalize those things. Drugs are bad. Nothing good comes of them. No excuses.
My only regret is Singapore does it executions behind closed doors, a good old public hanging would send a strong message out.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Drugs are bad. Nothing good comes of them. No excuses.
Alcohol, nicotine, caffeine... all drugs.
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Hi Sandy,
Originally posted by Sandman
Alcohol, nicotine, caffeine... all drugs.
I know that that seems like a valid counterpoint, but I have serious doubts as to whether it really is. In reverse order, Caffeine is non-addictive and a useful mild stimulant. Its value in keeping people from dozing off on the road or on the job is unquestioned. Nicotine, on the other hand is addictive, and in high concentrations it is poisonous to humans. It is a mild stimulant, but the primary problem with it, is that it gets us hooked on its primary delivery device, tobacco. And as we realize, overusing tobacco causes health problems. Alcohol is a mild depressant when consumed in moderate quantities, overuse creates obvious impairment and eventually physical problems related to the damage done when the Liver is no longer able to detoxify it.
There is nothing "mild" about Heroin however. It is a potent and highly addictive Narcotic whose users consume it in order to become impaired. Not everyone who consumes alcohol necessarily does so in order to get blind drunk, and not all users of alcohol become alcoholics. The majority of people who have used Heroin on multiple occasions however, become addicts and usually require assistance to stop using it. Very few addicts are able to function at high levels, and most quickly descend to subsistence level or below it. Most of them are in fact slowly killing themselves. They are obviously dangerous to themselves, and frequently dangerous to others. Unlike alcohol there is no clear zone of successful moderation, unlike Caffeine there is no benign effect, and unlike nicotine they cannot remain productive while using it. All in all, Smack is a slow death sentence, to compare it to caffeine is roughly like saying we should legalize cocaine because some people use Ibuprofen.
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I think Sandy was probably making the comparison to marijuana.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Sandy,
I know that that seems like a valid counterpoint, but I have serious doubts as to whether it really is. In reverse order, Caffeine is non-addictive and a useful mild stimulant.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0119_050119_ngm_caffeine.html
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Jackal,
Can you provide any hard information regarding the claim that the government of Singapore is systematically working with Burmese drug cartels to distribute Heroin world-wide? I mean aside from the oft-repeated claim that their banks are laundering money, because for that matter almost every financial center in the world is moving some dirty money around.
Please understand, I'm willing to believe your claim, but I'd like something more concrete than repeated assertions.
SG here is a link that pretty well explains the situation from a local standpoint. I have been doing some reading about this and it`s pretty clear. Will get you some more links when I have time.
http://omekanahuria.blogspot.com/2005/11/singapore-hypocritical-over-drugs.html
Yea pretty much every financial institute is moving dirty money. The thing is...they know they are. When it comes to cash it makes no difference where it comes from, thus it`s a sham.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yeah? What about it? So Burma is a leading trading partner with Singapore - how does that make Singapore in the business of distribution of drugs? Did you know that most of the heroin that comes into America originates in China which, in case you didn't know, is America's third largest trading partner. Does this mean that America is in the business of drugs distribution?
Hey, great logic! :aok:
Duh... :rolleyes:
Why thank you Oh Bruiser one. Logic seems to escape you. Sorry.
You best your sweet bippy America is in the drug distribution business. :) Haven`t checked lately , but at one time cocaine was the number two cash generating business in the U.S. I believe it was Gulf or one of the oil comapanies that was number one. The U.S. or no other country is going to make an honest effort to shut down that kind of cash flow. The war on drugs is a sham aimed at the naive. If you are willing to chew on it, they will gladly throw you a bone.
Not only did we encourage drug trade with places like Cambodia/Laos. We also sent personel to train in the agricultural aspect of growing the poppy. Go figure, huh? :)
Drugs are a virtual cash machine on a large scale.
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... I guess it could be said that if you are not a government sponsored a highly placed drug smuggler you will get the death penalty.
I sort of agree with the whiney liberal fartwinkle.... why not allow people to do as many drugs as they want? if they die they die... It's a womans (or a mans) right to choose? if they go to work on drugs the employer can fire em...or not. drive on drugs? lose your licence... what's the big deal?
lazs
Well, because street drugs are unfair and in some cases, the only choice made is the choice to try them. after the chemicals burn out your circuits, you are a hapless addict. The choice then turns into a 'necessity' and finally a matter of survival. This definatley poses a danger to innocent people and no longer becomes a personal choice but a choice to put otheres in danger. I wouldnt mourn the passing of some crack dealer who tries pushing dope on kids. But, your right. It is kind of suspicious that drugs are are still so easily obtained. Particularly the 100% imported ones. (Cocaine, crack and heroine).
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I get peeved off with people defending drug use. It serves no purpose and it causes huge problems in the society. The legislation will never stop the use but the very least we can push the users outside of the community.
The modern society tries to understand the addicts, it tries to tolerate their behaviour and honor their rights. An addict deserves only as much tolerance as he is ready to give others. None.
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seagoon... this is one that I am torn on because I have so much experiance with it. I realize that making abortion has caused more abortions... that is a given... I think people are using it as birth control and...
women are being given abortion ability as a way for men to get in their pants... it takes away the last excuse.. that is why so many men support it... like the pill... The pill started it and then the pill became dangerous but casual sex was instilled... abortion was the only fallback..
I believe that abortion will go back to being allmost nonexistent when a form of trouble free and safe and cheap birth control is invented.
It is nothing like drugs. Drugs aren't want for some... they are need. criminaliazation galmorizes them for the young... we old farts fear and loath em soooooo... they must be cool? You got to see really cool people to get em... never mind that once addicted you see another kind of addict... by then it is too late. No way out. If you are busted your life choices are reduced by huge amounts...
I would rather it was all out in the open and the mystique was gone... I can't imagine anyone romanticizing the heroin addict in the orange vest in the park picking up trash in order to get his food stamps and fix.
lazs
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and as for the guy in singapore being detered? yep. But... let's say his story is on the level... His brother or mother or whatever is in deep with these guys who are running things... killing him did nothing to deter the real smuggler... the guys holding the cards.. they will just get someone else in the same bind.
Do you think they cared that the guy got executed? do you think it deterred them?
lazs
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Laz,
We used to go over to Holland on the weekends to buy dope in Amsterdam. The experience of watching the junkies in parks, hungrily eyeing a bike they thought they might be able to steal to get another hit, or getting solicited by girls in their teens who were desperate for a fix almost made me stop doing drugs myself (I managed to avoid that by clinging to the arrogant belief "that could never happen to me".)
.
.
As bad as the "war on drugs" is, trust me no one, not you, not me, not the users, and certainly not their children deserves to live in a society with legalized narcotics.
So it's better to kick the litter under the carpet? Of course drug use is more visible in a country where drug users are not arrested. The US and UK for example are doing much worse on the drug statistics, even when they have stiff drug laws. Anyway drugs are not legal in Holland. Only the sale of some soft drugs is tolerated and drug use is usually not punished. The manufacturing of even the tolerated soft drugs is illegal, and causes an illegal black market(like in all countries). You cannot use Holland as an example of a place where drugs are legal, even if you do it would compare favorably to neighbouring countries on almost all accounts.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The modern society tries to understand the addicts, it tries to tolerate their behaviour and honor their rights.
Yes, of course they shouldn't get any special treatment. For example if they need needles, they should pay for them just like any other people who need needles. If they commit a crime they should face the same penalties(preferably stiffer than currently here) like everyone else.
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Originally posted by SOB
I think Sandy was probably making the comparison to marijuana.
Even so, a swedish study has shown that marijuana use by young adults increases (dramatically) the likelyhood they'll develop a psychosis.
Sandman, when was the last time some robbed, mugged, or killed for their morning "caffeine fix". Likewise, you won't get turned down from a job because you like to have a coffee in the mornings... even a cigarette. Neither of these have massive impacts on your performance as an employee (ok as a non-smoker I could see some issues with dirty stinking smokers...but you know what I mean).
Hard drugs create "zombies", thats about as best I can describe them. Because even if you get these people off the drugs they're still alll f**ked up.
If it were up to me, I'd charter a C130 and kick the b*stards out over the poppie fields in Laos and Cambodia, let em have what they want, take the customers straight to the source, and cut out the middle men all together.
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Originally posted by lazs2
and as for the guy in singapore being detered? yep. But... let's say his story is on the level... His brother or mother or whatever is in deep with these guys who are running things... killing him did nothing to deter the real smuggler... the guys holding the cards.. they will just get someone else in the same bind.
That may be true, and probaly is. However, in this particular case (Singapore) it should be clear to the drug mule what the penalty is. I've been to Singapore twice thus far, and EVERY time I entered the country, I had to sign an "Immigration notice" or whatever that slip is called. It says in very clear BLOCK LETTERS: "UNDER SINGAPORE LAW ALL DRUG TRAFFICKERS WILL BE HANGED", which in my understanding will tell each one their possible future if they happen to be carrying drugs. So, if he values the life of his brother above his own, that's his choice. If not, he should have turned the offer down. I think this pretty much boils down to the fact that the brother has made some unfortunate contacts and made the other brother pay for his sins.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Even so, a swedish study has shown that marijuana use by young adults increases (dramatically) the likelyhood they'll develop a psychosis.
Sandman, when was the last time some robbed, mugged, or killed for their morning "caffeine fix". Likewise, you won't get turned down from a job because you like to have a coffee in the mornings... even a cigarette. Neither of these have massive impacts on your performance as an employee (ok as a non-smoker I could see some issues with dirty stinking smokers...but you know what I mean).
Hard drugs create "zombies", thats about as best I can describe them. Because even if you get these people off the drugs they're still alll f**ked up.
If it were up to me, I'd charter a C130 and kick the b*stards out over the poppie fields in Laos and Cambodia, let em have what they want, take the customers straight to the source, and cut out the middle men all together.
What about drunks who kill someone casue there driving drunk?
Drugs are not the big evil here people! its the clowns that take no responabilty for there actions while impared.
Yaq wanna get drunk? great stay at home or take a cab.
Wanna get high on your drug of choice? fine stay at home or take a cab.
You see trend here its ok to be a dumbares just as long as you hurt noone else.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
and people will drive drunk, and people will fiddle with kiddies, and people will rob, and people will steal... it doesn't mean we have to legalize those things.
All those crimes have a victim, someones rights are allways violated when any of those acts are committed. That is the reason they are illegal.
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Good. Maybe if we took drug smuggling here as serious as they did, our streets might be a bit cleaner, too
WTG Singapore. that's what getting tough on crime should look like. :aok
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Originally posted by BluKitty
If you say so .... In the U.S. at least, there are soooooo many laws no one person can know them all ... it is impossible, and remember ... ignorance is no excuse. :huh
I pretty much have the ones for which I can be executed committed to memory. Took me about 8 seconds of concentrated effort.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
What about drunks who kill someone casue there driving drunk?
Drugs are not the big evil here people! its the clowns that take no responabilty for there actions while impared.
Yaq wanna get drunk? great stay at home or take a cab.
Wanna get high on your drug of choice? fine stay at home or take a cab.
You see trend here its ok to be a dumbares just as long as you hurt noone else.
he didnt stay home:lol
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
What about drunks who kill someone casue there driving drunk?
Drugs are not the big evil here people! its the clowns that take no responabilty for there actions while impared.
Yaq wanna get drunk? great stay at home or take a cab.
Wanna get high on your drug of choice? fine stay at home or take a cab.
You see trend here its ok to be a dumbares just as long as you hurt noone else.
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Hello Mora,
Originally posted by mora
You cannot use Holland as an example of a place where drugs are legal, even if you do it would compare favorably to neighbouring countries on almost all accounts.
Actually, the result of Holland's liberalization of drug laws is that it has become the Drug Capital of Europe and a nightmare for every European nation within smuggling distance. I went to Amsterdam to buy weed (especially when we got tired of Black Hashish) but I could have bought everything from Amphetamines to Heroin on the street, and in many areas in plain sight of passers-by.
The best article on the total failure of Holland's 23 year "experiment" I first read on a board dedicated to liberalizing drug laws. It's Available here: Holland's Half-Baked Drug Experiment (http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99.n444.a01.html)
The article was written by Larry Collins a journalist and the author a couple of excellent books, Freedom at Midnight (the best book on the Indian struggle for independence I've read to date) and Is Paris Burning.
Give it a read, its both entertaining and enlightening.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by lazs2
and as for the guy in singapore being detered? yep. But... let's say his story is on the level... His brother or mother or whatever is in deep with these guys who are running things... killing him did nothing to deter the real smuggler... the guys holding the cards.. they will just get someone else in the same bind.
Do you think they cared that the guy got executed? do you think it deterred them?
lazs
I'm sure the growers, and the importers/distributors all threw in the towel when their mule got strung up...they would've all run straight into custody hands held high if he was twitching away in public
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Mora,
Actually, the result of Holland's liberalization of drug laws is that it has become the Drug Capital of Europe and a nightmare for every European nation within smuggling distance. I went to Amsterdam to buy weed (especially when we got tired of Black Hashish) but I could have bought everything from Amphetamines to Heroin on the street, and in many areas in plain sight of passers-by.
The best article on the total failure of Holland's 23 year "experiment" I first read on a board dedicated to liberalizing drug laws. It's Available here: Holland's Half-Baked Drug Experiment (http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99.n444.a01.html)
The article was written by Larry Collins a journalist and the author a couple of excellent books, Freedom at Midnight (the best book on the Indian struggle for independence I've read to date) and Is Paris Burning.
Give it a read, its both entertaining and enlightening.
- SEAGOON
Holland was allready the drug trafficking capital when they liberalized the laws regarding soft drugs, it has allways been. Drug use has gone up everywhere so naturally trafficing has gone up too. Also drug tourism is a problem in Holland, but that's pretty unavoidable in a situation like this.
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wasq.. If I have a weakness it is that I will do anything to save one of my own... maybe the drug dealers played on that?
I find it very uncomfortable to see who the people are that are agreeing with me in this thread and who is not... I take comfort in the fact that I would deal with real drug violations more harshly than the liberals here..
any impairment is cause for termination if the employer wishes... any impairment while driving is cause for lose of licence to drive... any injuries while impaired to other people should carry additional penalties... for instance... if you run someone down it should be assault with intent to kill... you don't care about others when you are loaded... you intend to harm them if you are out amoung them impaired.
I think that holland is a bad example.... or... a good one... It would be great iof there were one spot that all the druggies could go away from the rest of us.. as it is.. they go there because they are driven there... not because they are upstanding citizens who are unable to stop themselves.
as for addiction... certain people are addictive no matter what... but.. drugs don't instantly addict. You can do heroin for weeks if you have no prediliction for addiction and you can stop instantly.... I have done it.
Like I said... anyone who wants to try any drug in the world is not being stopped by the war on drugs. That is just the fact.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
as for addiction... certain people are addictive no matter what... but.. drugs don't instantly addict. You can do heroin for weeks if you have no prediliction for addiction and you can stop instantly.... I have done it.
Like I said... anyone who wants to try any drug in the world is not being stopped by the war on drugs. That is just the fact.
lazs
You are certainlly right. The war on drugs is another failure of our govt. I just dont think making them available to the pubic is the right answer. Perhaps a prescription program for recreation use or something. Man, you gotta be crazy trying heroin. What good could possibly come of that? If you like it, that demon will be calling for the rest of your life?
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Why cant the US have laws like that. The judicial system here is too weak.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Wow, I bow to your far superior logic that says it ok to get smashed off your face and totally beyond control and then expects that person to maintain enough control to not hurt anyone else or put them at risk.
Try again einstein.
Well here is a prime example of someone showing there stupidity.
Anyone with half a brain can see that what I was saying that yes indeed you have a right to get smashed if you like.
But you dont have the right to endanger others for the sake of your fun.
How could anyone see it as anything else is beyond me:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Well here is a prime example of someone showing there stupidity.
Anyone with half a brain can see that what I was saying that yes indeed you have a right to get smashed if you like.
But you dont have the right to endanger others for the sake of your fun.
How could anyone see it as anything else is beyond me:rolleyes:
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
....The best article on the total failure of Holland's 23 year "experiment" I first read on a board dedicated to liberalizing drug laws. It's Available here: Holland's Half-Baked Drug Experiment (http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99.n444.a01.html)...
I'm sure with a title like that it is a scholarly unbiased look at the facts.
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I am glad they hung him.
They should do the same thing here in the states.
People need to stop codling these drug smugglers and dealers and realise that:
A: Drugs Kill.
B: Drugs Ruin Lives.
C: Drugs Cause Crime.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I am glad they hung him.
They should do the same thing here in the states.
People need to stop codling these drug smugglers and dealers and realise that:
A: Drugs Kill.
B: Drugs Ruin Lives.
C: Drugs Cause Crime.
And if you make drugs leagal there goes the drug crime.
If drugs are going to be illegal then why isnt booze and smokes? they kill more people than drugs do.
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Tobacco is on the fastlane to becoming banned. Alcohol may cause more problems than drugs. Then again alcohol comsumption kills far more people than the occasional cases of methanol served as alcohol. With your logic serving methanol should be legalized untill the death toll exceeds that of alcohol.
With someone elses logic one might say that methanol is thousand-fold more hazardous and should never be served to anyone for consumption.
Narcotics serve no purpose outside of destroying people's lives. They should not be tolerated on any level. I'm appalled of the amount of people on this board confessing the use of soft narcotics and surprised of the amount who did hard ones. Aces High.. but what kind of High was HT thinking about in the end? :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
With your logic serving methanol should be legalized untill the death toll exceeds that of alcohol.
AFAIK no one is drinking methanol in any other purpose than suicide, and it's pretty unpredictable in that use. Some people are suggesting legalizing some or all drugs, the logic is that them being illegal makes more harm than good. Those drugs are usually used in large numbers, while methanol isn't.
The percentage of people on this board who have used illegal drugs is likely somewhere around the average of the western world ~30%.
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Originally posted by mora
The percentage of people on this board who have used illegal drugs is likely somewhere around the average of the western world ~30%.
I don't know about this board but I know a lot higher than 30% have tried cannibus. There are few people that I know that haven't tried it. How could these stats about illegal drug use possibly be accurate? Nobodies going to own up to breaking the law. You would have no idea how many people you interact with everyday that are regular pot smokers.
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Originally posted by Skilless
I don't know about this board but I know a lot higher than 30% have tried cannibus. There are few people that I know that haven't tried it. How could these stats about illegal drug use possibly be accurate? Nobodies going to own up to breaking the law. You would have no idea how many people you interact with everyday that are regular pot smokers.
If you're a college student then you might get that perception. Statistics include people of all ages. Also drug use is more common in the US than in other countries. It's twice as common there as it is here for example. Also 30% was just my personal approximation based on what I've seen in different statistics, not a fact.
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some people will not try drugs that are regulated wihout a doctors advise no matter what...
There are plenty of people who have never tried booze.... many more who have, and then never tried it again or only in extreme moderation like once a year or even less and even then... not to excess.
A lot of people, like myself dislike the high from pot... it simply makes you stupid and wimpy.
as for heroin and trying it? sheesh... in the hospital they gave me morphine for 3 days straight... still do I believe... heroin does not instantly addict.. unless you are predispossed.
Some form of legalization would cut crime. If it is a "failure of our government" then it is a failure of every government since no government I know if has completely legal and free drugs.
Some form of legalization would be like the sale at pharmacies of drugs cheaply. Free addiction help and addicts would be made to do community service for their foodstamps and welfare. Most would not have a drivers licence or be able to work... I don't want a pot head running a backhoe while I am in the hole for instance... I don't want his idiotic grinning husk on the freeway driving either.
lazs
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
And if you make drugs leagal there goes the drug crime.
If drugs are going to be illegal then why isnt booze and smokes? they kill more people than drugs do.
Instead of just spewing out the first random thought that comes to your mind, think before you type.
Regardless of whether drugs are legal or not, there will always be crime. You neglect to see the wonderful habits that go along with drug addicts. Namely, lack of jobs/meaningful employment and therefore lack of money to continue to purchase said drugs. While this is not entirely the case with all addicts / users, it is faster becoming the case as the new drugs that arrive on seen get more powerful, and more devastating to the body and mind.
As for cigarettes and alcohol, we'll see. Cigarettes will more than likely be banned in almost all places except your home, unless you have minor children living there. I doubt alcohol will be banned in our lifetimes.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Instead of just spewing out the first random thought that comes to your mind, think before you type.
Regardless of whether drugs are legal or not, there will always be crime. You neglect to see the wonderful habits that go along with drug addicts. Namely, lack of jobs/meaningful employment and therefore lack of money to continue to purchase said drugs. While this is not entirely the case with all addicts / users, it is faster becoming the case as the new drugs that arrive on seen get more powerful, and more devastating to the body and mind.
As for cigarettes and alcohol, we'll see. Cigarettes will more than likely be banned in almost all places except your home, unless you have minor children living there. I doubt alcohol will be banned in our lifetimes.
Not just spewing off as you say.
I am simply pointing out the Hypocrisy in this.
All of these things can kill you and cause you to commit crimes.
Just look at the drunk driving deaths alone in this country.
And ciggs? LOL well you have to look no further than the prison system to see how they are used as a form of payment.
My point is this why are some things against they law and others are not?
Clearly they all can harm you and serve no purpose in society.
In the case of booze what we hear is moderation and responsable drinking.
Well ok I submit moderation and responsable pot smoking or herion shooting.
In my warped little ming I see no difference between the three.
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Hi Holden,
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I'm sure with a title like that it is a scholarly unbiased look at the facts.
The article was initially published in Foriegn Affairs Magazine. Collins himself doesn't have a dog in this particular fight. He's a journalist and author specializing in social history, not an administration anti-drug maven. I believe the article title was intended to be witty and get people to read the article.
If Foreign Affairs follows the pattern of publishing I'm aware of, an editor at the magazine, and not the author determines the title. Just as a for instance, of all the articles I've had published, I've only been able to set the title for one of them.
Anyway, give the article a read, and then give me your critique.