Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on December 01, 2005, 08:22:37 PM
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Ok.. got Boston's Gun Bible. A big piece of this outstanding refrence work is an in depth comparison of modern battlefield rifles. In it he discusses the relative merits of various modern army ammo calibers and the conclusion is the Nato 7.62x51 (.308 Winchester) is the caliber to 'beat'. Reach, power, penetration.. it's got it all over the 5.56 round now in favor with modern armies. Down tick.. weight, mass, amount that can be carried.
In recent months I've been steadily 'arming' the family. The kids all have their own SKS's & M39's now and we've gone through just under 5,000 rounds on the range.. they have developed pretty comendable rifle skills, and understand fully the capabilities of the weapons. Stage One is about complete. Since we're in an 'urban' enviornment here, the thinking has been the SKS's with their 7.62x39 round at close quarters (200 yards and under) is adequite to the task. But should things get ugly in an urban situation the task switches from 'defense' to 'bug out'. Now, just like a hand gun is valid to fight your way to your rifle, the SKS is valid for fighting your way out of an urban enviornment and into a rural one. Cheap, light, rugged and very compact, it's more accurate than an AK and has more punch than the M-16 clones. Perfect 'trunk guns', and the kids know how to use 'em well.
But once you get 'in the clear' the .308 semi-auto battle rifle comes into it's own. With a much better reach and harder hit than the .223, as one guy put it "It's awfuly hard to hide from a .308". If your facing folks equipped with .223's you want something that can engage effectively thru battlefield cover before they can. I have several 7.62x54 bolt action battle rifles, these have the range and power of the .308 but it takes 3 of them in constant action to lay down the amount of aimed fire a singe semi-auto .308 battle rifle can.
Now off to the available choices for a .308 semi-auto rifle.. in the Gun Bible he reviews 5 of them in detail..
The M1 Garand in 30-06
The M1A (M-14) in .308
The FAL in .308
The HK 91 in .308
The AR-10 in .308
Now, I was pre-disposed to the M1A (M-14) since I'm real familiar with the rifle and it's capabilities. A superb weapon. Very accurate, very reliable. The 20 round mag and the relatively cheap and available ammo make it The Bible's top pick... by a very few percentage points. Coming in a few points behind these two is the FAL with the HK 91 a few percentage points behind it.. and dead last the AR-10.
I plowed through the pages & pages of discussion, the comparisons based on accuracy, controls, ruggedness, reliability, serviceability, parts counts, cost.. the guy was meticulious and detailed in his evaluations. As I probably mentioned somewhere else.. The Gun Bible is an excellent refrence work on modern battlefield carbines and rifles. It's earned it's price back 10 fold or more already..
Finally, I came to a decison based on my own circumstances and needs and feel I've made a good choice. My biggest up front requirement falls right in line with one of the Bibles Maxixms.. "Get as much Rifle as you can afford." Based on up front and on-going shooting (and training) cost as being MY biggest factor, accuracy and reliability being the next two major considerations, I chose the FAL.. to be exact the STG-58C. The STG, 750 bucks; new. The M1A.. $1250, new.. for a crappy springfield regurge at that. The FAL 20 round mags.. 7 bucks. The M1A's.. 35 to 40 bucks. The M1A is more accurate.. the 'stock' FAL not so much but this is easily addressed by the owner with inexpensive upgrade sights. Reliability.. belive it or not the FAL is just about the most reliable of the bunch... and can be improved with a simple forward bolt assist mod.
Now.. I've got an M1 Garand in the works.. no finer battle rifle on the target range is available. It's accuracy is beyond reproach.. but the 8 round clip and increasing scaricty of ammo will relegate it to the status of being a much enjoyed piece of history.. much the same as my old bolt guns, exceptionaly accurate but outclassed in volume of fire and battlefield practicality by it's younger cousins the M-14 and the FAL. I'll have fun 'building' my CMP M1 this winter.. but there will be a ready to go FAL in the closet in the meantime.
Lastly, the HK 91 (and it's clones) just fall flat on their face when it comes to accuracy.. the sights suck, plain and simple. With optics, they are decent performers; but are about as accurate as an SKS over 200 yards on the battlefield sights. The HK 91 got top honors for reliability.. but they just look ugly to me.. all those stamped parts. ungh. I'm pre-disposed to disliking the HK.. it's just me, I'm sure. The bible speaks highly of it.. untill accuracy comes into play.
Parting coment.. the FAL was used by 90 countries.. the Bible makes the point: 'when have 90 countries ever agreed on anything?' ;) Inexpensive replacement parts abound. Since the Import ban on assault weapons impacted the availability here in the US for 'genuine' FALs, several US firms have been producing FAL receivers for use with 'kits'.. a 'kit' is a stripped surplus used FAL less receiver, commonly available for less than 300 bucks. The two better companies here in the US building American 'FrankenFALs' are Imbel and Enterprise Arms. Average price for a 'Parts Gun' is about $750.. I got mine for $500 used, in astounding condition, all new USA barrel, milled receiver & composite furniture, belgian parts throughout the rest of rifle. A competely legal 'American FAL', for about half the cost of a Springfield M1A in similar condition... new cast reciever with various surplus USGI and aftermarket parts.
Look at it this way.. two FALs for the price of one M1A... Would I rather have an M1A? yah. But I'd rather have two FAL's in the family than one M1A. ;)
Sorry Laz.. my wallet thickness exceeded the bone density of my head on this one. Of course I'll snap up any worthy M1A that crosses my aquistion capabilities.. but the first .308 battle rifle into the inventory here is a FrankenFal. ;)
(http://www.thecore4.com/media/8/20040912-STG58C.jpg)
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Used to play with the FN SLR's (older version of the FAL I believe) when I was in the "cadet corp", they were handed down to us when the NZ Army switched to M-16's - loved em, and many of the Army regular guys still prefered them over the M-16s as well. When they retired them they did some silly stuff with them, like hooking up home made mags and firing them til they got the barrels glowing hot :)
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I'm an all around HK fan. I have shot 3 different and well taken care of HK 91's. I have also shot 2 HK 91 kits. I have also shot a few FALs as well and have found in my opinion, and of course it is a little biased, the full fledged HK 91's shot better than the FALs but the kit HK91's shot like crap.
I'm thinking on the kit guns that the barrels arent all in that great of shape. As far as money goes though I cant afford a true HK91. It just aint gonna happen anytime soon for me, but I will definately go with a FAL before going with a kit HK 91.
The only thing I really like about the kit HK's is alot of them have the scope rail molded in the reciever as opposed to the claw type clamp used on the real HK's.
Of course the G3/HK91 is really a liscensed copy of a CETME.
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Unfortunately, I wish you had conferred with us before you made your decision.
While those are all decent rifles (even the AR-10), they just cannot compare to the M1A/M14.
So while you might be spending 750 dollars, I'd say it's way more worth it to save up for the M1a/M14.
I'm curious as to where you live. Because in my area, .30-06 rounds damn near grow on trees. And cost like they do grow on trees.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm curious as to where you live. Because in my area, .30-06 rounds damn near grow on trees. And cost like they do grow on trees. [/B]
Good point,
One thing my dad told me along time ago that makes alot of sense......."if you are worried about the world going to hell in a hand basket. Make sure your rifle/ pistol rounds can be found in the local good old boys country stores"
Pretty much limits rounds to:
.30-.30
.30-06
.45
.308
So most guns I'll end up having on hand will have those rounds.
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Umm, I live in good ole boy country. .308 is pretty hard to find (for a decent price).
Here are the rounds you are sure of finding (off the top of my head):
.30-06
.30-30
.45
.22
.38 Spcl / .357 Magnum
12 Guage BuckShot
12 Guage Slugs
Now that I'm thinking about it, those are the exact rounds available at my local Convenience / Deli / Gas Store.
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Ah True. And in truth and in answer to Vulcan.. I had FAL's offered in swap for my M14 "just fer a bit, mate.." was never tempted to swap. That speaks volumes about how muchy I like the old M14. And the real Belgain FAL is a very fine wepon compared to any crap 500 dollar clone done of any TRUE worthy battle rifle.
But true 'worthy' battle rifles start at about 15-1800 bucks, and easily go to over 3500 bucks.. without optics. Kinda tuff to compare a prince to pauper like a clone FAL.
And, that's where the Bible lets me down just a bit.. it's ok to rave about 1500 dollar battle rifles.. but where I'm swiming in the tank the only bait I can afford to hit is the stuff on the bottom of the pile.
And down here.. the 750 dollar FAL clone out shoots and out cheaps the HK clones.. I havent handled a CETME clone yet but they reportedly fall pretty short of the FrankenFals in accuracy and useability.
I think its safe to say in the world of 500-800 dollar clone rifles, the Enterpise or Imbel STG-58 is a 'well, at least you got yer nickles worth' of gun.
;)
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.308 147 grain FMJ Surplus. Brass case, berdan primed, non-corrosive $2.95 - 20 rounds
$69.95 - 500 rounds
$135.95 - 1000 rounds
Around here 30-06 goes for about 18 bucks a box of 20 off the shelf, or Cheaper Than Dirt has it for 8 bucks a box of 20. Almost 3 times as pricey as .308 FMJ. The 30-06 surplus stuff is drying up and I'm not planning on getting into reloading yet. ;)
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you can get SMLEs chambered in .308
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Yup.. the indian NATO smellies are nice. But I'm not lookin for another bolt gun. The ones I've got have served thier purpose.. fine training rifles. I'm gonna scope up one of the M39's and sell the other two.. and buy another FrankenFal for the kids. Then, after we've got three good FALS we'll sart sellin 'em off for M-1A's.
The FALs won't be dropping in value and we can afford 'em now. When I get more money I'll trade up. Gotta start with what I can afford now though.. 'waiting' ain't much of an option and the new weapons familiarization for the kids is a good thing.. keeps interest up and it's fun playing withe new toys. ;)
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Given the popularity of .308 vs 30-06 I'd go with the .308 as well.
Your choice of rifles is interesting. The scenario you talk about is somewhat flawed however. If you stick with a scoped bolt action rifle you will have far more reach than iron sights. One shot that hits is FAR more valuable than 25 that miss. The idea of long range capability is to use that capability AT long range. A single shot is harder to determine where it came from than a flurry of shots or even just 2 or 3. You will dissuade more folks looking for you if you hit once with one shot and only needing one shot. This gives you the oportunity to do what should be first on your mind, dissengaging contact, not maintaining it.
Best strategy is to avoid trouble, not go looking for it.
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I have an M1A and I love it. New USGI magazines can be had for $25 from Armalite and Elite Firearms. Taiwan T57 magazines are going for as low as $10 now and are excellant shooters.
High Quality surplus ammo is available from many places, my favorite is http://www.polygunbag.com/ammunition.html
Aimsurplus is also selling .308 surplus, and currently about the best available surplus in quantity is South African ammo. http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of__308.html
If you want a really good M1A, watch auctionarms.com and gunbroker.com for a good Preban M1A. Those were still built with USGI surplus parts and are of excellant quality. Expect to pay $1200 - $1400, but money well spent.
I personally wouldnt go for the new M1A, a lot of reproduction parts, but many have them and like them.
M1A is famous for accuracy and reliability. The military has been shipping M14s to Iraq and they are serving with distinction again. (Those that Clinton didnt have destroyed anyway)
Good places to do some research:
http://battlerifles.ambackforum.com/viewforum.php?f=108&sid=e869bcf79b586eee2ccc92e3bef1d9f7
http://www.warrifles.com/forums/index.php
http://www.m-14forum.com/
Good luck with whatever you choose.
dago
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Originally posted by Maverick
Given the popularity of .308 vs 30-06 I'd go with the .308 as well.
Your choice of rifles is interesting. The scenario you talk about is somewhat flawed however. If you stick with a scoped bolt action rifle you will have far more reach than iron sights. One shot that hits is FAR more valuable than 25 that miss. The idea of long range capability is to use that capability AT long range. A single shot is harder to determine where it came from than a flurry of shots or even just 2 or 3. You will dissuade more folks looking for you if you hit once with one shot and only needing one shot. This gives you the oportunity to do what should be first on your mind, dissengaging contact, not maintaining it.
Best strategy is to avoid trouble, not go looking for it.
Agree.. and I'm scoping up a worthy bolt rifle for just that reason. And accuracy and aimed fire is the gospel of a rifleman trained on a bolt gun.. no matter what he has in hands after that. However in crunch the best force multiplier is an accurate semi-auto battle rifle... 20 in a mag vs 5 under a bolt can save your bellybutton when it comes time to get outta dodge.
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You aren't forming your own Militia, are you Hang? I'm the only one in my house with a "gun" and it's only a .177 cal Daisy BB gun. My dad has a .22 but that's beside the point. Are you paranoid or planning a resistance movement?
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You bet I am... pretty soon I'm gonna need to schedule a bus for range days.
"I'm not paranoid.. which one of my enemies told you this?"
;)
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L1A1, but it gets heavy...
Tronsky
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Ah... Belgium not only makes fine chocolates.
Hang, if you ever stumble upon the SAFN, don't pass it: ancestor of the FAL, same action mechanism, some say that it shoots better (I thinks that it has better stock sights), and much better looking ;)
(http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/images/fnslr_p01p32v5no3.jpg)
Have safe fun with your rifles.
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Scope a quality M1A and you will have a rifle that does everything you want.
M1As are often setup as sub-moa rifles, and 1000yd competitions are routinly shot with M1As (and won).
Kills at 300 and 600 yards present no problem.
dago
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Hey all,
Great thread (I'm learning a heck of a lot).
Here's my two cents:
If the topic is survival scenario (i.e. world goes to he**) then a general pupose rifle with the capabilities to engage hostile foe plus the ability to take down game is a must. To find a rifle with both capabilities is tough (and some sacrificies have to be made). Bolt actions have the benefit of accuracy but semi's have the magazine capacity and rate of fire advantage. I would say that the first choice would have to be caliber. I lean towards .308 due to the wider availability than 30-06 in both military ball and hunting ammo (soft points, holllow points etc). There is just more .308 to be had (if the world is in chaos then price ..i.e. money is no longer a concer...just whether or not it can be obtained).
Now for the rifle, I cannot prove any one to be the best (again there are trade offs) but I lean towards the Semi's (trade some accuracy for more bullets and faster rate of fire). Right now here is what I own in .308 (I only own two .308 rifles...this one plus an Ishapore Enfield)
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2046/mas49561af.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
The Mas 49/56. I picked up for about $500 (this is about the limit of my bugdet). I am prepared for the rotten eggs to be thrown at my door for chosing a french rifle (I am prepared with the hose that is - lets not get crazy!).
:)
It is accurate with the iron sights to about 300 yards and with the scope (and after-market mount and scope) I can shoot 3" groups out to about 600 yards. Good enough for most "situations".
It is fairly light (9 lbs of 4.10KG) and short (40" or 1020 mm which is pretty handy). It has a 20" (525mm) barrel and uses a simple direct gas blowback system (with no piston which was used and admired by Stoner). Easy to clean and maintain and has fired 100's of rounds as a session without issue.
The down side is a small magazine (relatively) at only 10 rounds (I actually prefer not to have a big metal box hanging out of the bottom of the rifle...one less thing I have to fight with). Also, getting parts could be more difficult then a more common rifle but the weapon is sturdy to fire and hold and I've put aside some of the more common parts that fail (firing pin, extractor, springs etc). I haven't had anything break so far (shot around 2000 rounds through it) Anyway, a cheap alternative for those on a budget and my two cents.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Ah... Belgium not only makes fine chocolates.
Hang, if you ever stumble upon the SAFN, don't pass it: ancestor of the FAL, same action mechanism, some say that it shoots better (I thinks that it has better stock sights), and much better looking ;)
(http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/images/fnslr_p01p32v5no3.jpg)
Have safe fun with your rifles.
deSeyls,
I own one of these and love it. What a solid, accurate piece of art. SOme draw backs are that it is complicated to take apart, is in 8mm (and some other calibers such as 7mm but much more limited) and has a non-detachable magazine. I have heard that there are some that were modified for 30-06 (or .308) with a detachable magazine. Haven't seen or heard much on them though. If all else fails you could use it as a tremendous club! ;)
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I don't think any of you are wrong. .308 will probly be a little more available than ought six but not enough to matter... You can buy surplus ought six still for around 20 cents a round and you can reload either 308 or ought six for about the same money... if you have reloading skills and can find .308 or ought six.... you can make one into the other (if you have the brass) in an emergency. Imr 4198 can be loaded in an emergency by simply filling the case to the neck... close enough for an M1... fn's adjust.
I happen to have a very mint Garand so... I am getting familiar with it... it is, as you say... very accurate and probly the most battle proven of the bunch... it also is a real military weapon with forged parts that won't stretch or fail. The 8 round clip is not as big a disadvantage as you may think... you don't have to remove the old clip/mag... it removes itself... all you got to do is ram home another one... the clips weigh nothing and are compact so you can carry a lot of em..
I like it.... I like the M1a and the hk even tho it destroys brass.. not that fond of the fal... spotty accuracy on the ones I shot... but..
in the end... any one I pick up will do.. If I don't like it... I will use it to get one I do.
Never hurts to have a breakdown .22 rifle or pistol either tho.
lazs
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I turned down a MAS in favor of the FrankenFal.. looked like a nice weapon, but since i had a choice in that price range I went with the STG 58.
Now here's something I agonized over for a solid week.. damn near went this route..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/EzraColi/Gunpics/000psl_red03.jpg)
In the same price range as the FrankenFal. A mite bigger.. shoots the cheaper ammo (I've got 5,000 rounds of 7.62x54 for the bolties) and it's a decent design.. based on the Dragunov, but has a 'cheapo' stamped trigger group. Uses the Kalishnikov receiver design (no interchangeable parts tho) and good optics come on the gun at the same price as the FAL without optics.
I elected to pass because of the 10 round mags, the probable dry-up of commie ammo (reloadble 7.62x54 is gonna be even rarer) and the fact it's just too distinctive as an 'evil sniper rifle'. Anybody carrying one would receive unwanted attention of the entirely wrong kind. Lastly, it's design focus IS as a Sniper Rifle.. something my boltie M39's can do for 1/5 the cost.
Still, an interesting weapon, and at about $650-750 new outta the box with optics it's price is attractive. But it's not what I want my kids totin around.. would make 'em 'remembered' and an instant target.
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Like I said... none of you is wrong unless yu pick a rifle that you can't shoot or maintain well.
I think an essential skill is a basic working knowlege of reloading.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Like I said... none of you is wrong unless yu pick a rifle that you can't shoot or maintain well.
I think an essential skill is a basic working knowlege of reloading.
lazs
Ironically enough the only reloading dies I have are for this rifle.
(http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/4807/carcaon6po.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
They came with the rifle. I fired it once then shelved this "widowmaker". Someday I'll get into reloading for real. Sounds like an art form all its own.
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You don't even need dies. I can reload with common hand tools... for instance... a die can be made by drilling a piece of plate steel ... a punch is a punch.. etc. I have punched out live primers and reused em as a test.
I still believe that a working knowlege of reloading is pretty much essential in a doomsday scenario...
and... nothing wrong with your pick of battle rifle.
What is optimum? who knows.. I will stick with...
The optimum battle rifle is a full power rifle that you can shoot and maintain well.
lazs
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Originally posted by Eden
Ironically enough the only reloading dies I have are for this rifle.
(http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/4807/carcaon6po.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
They came with the rifle. I fired it once then shelved this "widowmaker". Someday I'll get into reloading for real. Sounds like an art form all its own.
The Lee Loaders? Handy.. absolutely. And it's experience/skill crucial for the .303 enfields with the ammo being so damn pricey and hard to find. And Laz is 100% correct; reloading skill is critical in a doomsday scenario. Dammit I hope that any 'trouble' is short lived 'cause once my 'off the shelf' stuff runs out I'm up the creek. I've been stocking up reasoning that ammo will be worth more than money in either a short term OR long term period of disarray..
Problem here is this is suburbia.. trapped behind 5 bridges. In a bug out, the equipment wouldn't make it. As soon as I relocate to a more rural location (working on that too) then I'm going with a 5 position turrent setup. I mean.. why mess around? :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Now.. I've got an M1 Garand in the works.. no finer battle rifle on the target range is available. It's accuracy is beyond reproach.. but the 8 round clip and increasing scaricty of ammo will relegate it to the status of being a much enjoyed piece of history..
.30-06 ammo scarce???? Where the hell do you live? I can get all you want at the local sporting goods stores around my house. Just send me a couple hundred dollars to load you up and I will ship it to you for free. Its cheaper than $20 a box here. I paid about $10 a box for a case of .30-06 ammo last spring at Academy Sports here in Birmingham. That was my favorite Federal 150 grain round. I have dropped more deer at over 200 yards with my Model 700 long action .30-06 than any other rifle. The only other I shoot is my Dad's modified Ruger M77 .270 with a chopped barrel and its an absolute dream gun for stalk hunting in the woods around here.
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Originally posted by Reschke
.30-06 ammo scarce???? Where the hell do you live? I can get all you want at the local sporting goods stores around my house. Just send me a couple hundred dollars to load you up and I will ship it to you for free. Its cheaper than $20 a box here. I paid about $10 a box for a case of .30-06 ammo last spring at Academy Sports here in Birmingham. That was my favorite Federal 150 grain round. I have dropped more deer at over 200 yards with my Model 700 long action .30-06 than any other rifle. The only other I shoot is my Dad's modified Ruger M77 .270 with a chopped barrel and its an absolute dream gun for stalk hunting in the woods around here.
That was the point of the "good ole boy ammo" quote above, I belive. Price isnt your prime concern in this situation, its availability. If the poop hits the big fan, and you are concerned over your ammo supply, you need to be shooting something that will take what you can get off the shelf at the local Wal-Mart or whatever. You may not be lucky enough to have a real gun store close by, that stocks all kinds of ammo. Even if you do, you may not be able to get in. Wal-Mart or the equivalent you usually have big glass doors you could drive a truck through if necessary.
Also, as Lazs pointed out, the ability to reload ammo is unbeliveably important in such a situation. Especially if you choose the .308 stuff and cant get it anywhere close by. You may be able to buy the bullets cheap enough now, but how many will you store? 1000? 5000? You can buy and store brass even cheaper, and load it as you need. Plus having the benefit of having whatever bullet weight you prefer right off the bat, not having to settle for what you can scrounge. Now that I'm loading my own stuff, even just on a single stage press, I'm amazed at how much ammo I can churn out just while I'm sitting doing other things. Having one of the little Lee Hand Loaders is even better if you think you might have to go on the dodge and cant stay at the house. No mounting required. Perfect hand depriming tools? Those 6in wooden sticks I see at the craft store with the 3in needles on the end? No idea what they are for, but I grabbed some for my "toolkit" becasue that was the first thing that popped into my head.
The M39 with a scope is, I agree, probably the best compromise sniper gun you can get for your money. The ammo is powerful enough, has good range, and you can still find reloadable ammo for reasonable cost. I love mine. For closer range I have my .30-30 lever rifle. Its reliable, accurate out to at least 100 yards, and still powerful enough at that range to take down a deer so its good enough for me as a mid-range defensive weapon. I also have the matching lever action in .45LC and my revolvers for close range. The .45 rifle is accurate at 100 yards also, although I cant vouch for the velocity of the bullet at that range. Ballpark muzzle velocity is around 1100 fps so I'm guessing that even out that far it would put the hurt on a person.
Lastly, in case everything goes to heck, I can cast my own lead balls, and I have a decent supply of powder and percussion caps, I could always rely on my muzzleloaders for defense. They did the job 150 years ago, they could do it now.
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ya know... I've been thinking of the lever action marlin 1895 trapper in stainless steel and 45-70 caliber... I can make excellent slugs from cast wheel weights and scrap lead... pick a powder that fills the case and it takes large rifle primers.... a good doomsday gun...
most people don't realize that it will also outpentrate .308 against say.... bulletproof glass... the old gun will do 500 yards real easy and the lever is dead reliable.
Best excuse I've had in a long time to get a new gun.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
ya know... I've been thinking of the lever action marlin 1895 trapper in stainless steel and 45-70 caliber... I can make excellent slugs from cast wheel weights and scrap lead... pick a powder that fills the case and it takes large rifle primers.... a good doomsday gun...
most people don't realize that it will also outpentrate .308 against say.... bulletproof glass... the old gun will do 500 yards real easy and the lever is dead reliable.
Best excuse I've had in a long time to get a new gun.
lazs
That actually reminds me...
Any recommendations on a .44 magnum lever action? In know that Henry and Marlin makes them (browning, rossi and Winchester also make them - I think). Just wanted to get something in a caliber that matches my S&W M#29.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't think any of you are wrong. .308 will probly be a little more available than ought six but not enough to matter... You can buy surplus ought six still for around 20 cents a round and you can reload either 308 or ought six for about the same money... if you have reloading skills and can find .308 or ought six.... you can make one into the other (if you have the brass) in an emergency. Imr 4198 can be loaded in an emergency by simply filling the case to the neck... close enough for an M1... fn's adjust.
I happen to have a very mint Garand so... I am getting familiar with it... it is, as you say... very accurate and probly the most battle proven of the bunch... it also is a real military weapon with forged parts that won't stretch or fail. The 8 round clip is not as big a disadvantage as you may think... you don't have to remove the old clip/mag... it removes itself... all you got to do is ram home another one... the clips weigh nothing and are compact so you can carry a lot of em..
I like it.... I like the M1a and the hk even tho it destroys brass.. not that fond of the fal... spotty accuracy on the ones I shot... but..
in the end... any one I pick up will do.. If I don't like it... I will use it to get one I do.
Never hurts to have a breakdown .22 rifle or pistol either tho.
lazs
What do you think of the Springfield Armory M-1s in .308?
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-m1-garand.shtml
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Originally posted by nirvana
Are you paranoid or planning a resistance movement?
when people are out to get you, paranoia is reasonable thinking.
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ok... I have 4 handguns in 44 mag but have no desire to have a rifle in one. Most are only good with jacketed ammo so they don't really "interchange" with my lead bullet load 44 handguns... most are not that much more accurate (for me) than a good 44 handgun or much more powerful .... I wouldn't feel unarmed with one but..
I would 100 times rather have a 444 marlin or better.... a 45-70 for big bullet cast slug rifle doomsday scenario.
the springfields.... woe onto some of the springfields... I have heard that they don't use forged recievers... I have heard that because of that... the recievers stretch. stretch reciever=bad. Maybe this is not true anymore but you want a forged reciever no matter what... nothing else is "just as good"
lazs
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Now.. I've got an M1 Garand in the works.. no finer battle rifle on the target range is available. It's accuracy is beyond reproach.. but the 8 round clip and increasing scaricty of ammo will relegate it to the status of being a much enjoyed piece of history.. much the same as my old bolt guns, exceptionaly accurate but outclassed in volume of fire and battlefield practicality by it's younger cousins the M-14 and the FAL. I'll have fun 'building' my CMP M1 this winter.. but there will be a ready to go FAL in the closet in the meantime.
You can have a M1 converted to .308 with a simple barrel change. I think Fulton Armory does it for under 200 bucks.
I plan on having mine rebuilt and refinished by them and having the barrel changed out to .308 when I get it back from the X.
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Yup. Laz nailed it again. Pre-Ban used is the way to go with a M1A. (semi-auto M14) The new guns on the cast receivers are just not cuttin the mustard... there's problems with third market (not USGI) parts in them too.
Yep.. you can get .308 chambered garands.. but why? If it ain't shootin the 30-06 then sight calibration is off, there's feed problems... cripes, if yer baseline ammo pick is .308, hunt up a good pre-ban M1A instead.
But, if yah fancy the grande dame of all battle rifles, the Garand is the lady to pursue and CMP is the place to get it. A fine shooter, accurate, deadly, lordy; they don't come any more competent than the Garand. It's shortcomings on a modern battle field are few, only 8 rounds a clip and it's a mite heavy. On the range, without reloading, they are can be pricy to shoot if you shoot a LOT.
For me, every time I go to the range I'm personally chewing thru at least 150 rounds of big caliber.. when the kids come along (quite often now) we burn up 500 or more between us.. 30-06 is just too damned expensive for me to shoot on that scale. It don't mean I don't like it.. it's just I can shoot twice to three times as much .308 or 7.62x54r for the same money. Once I have the runts trained up fully on the bolties I'll revisit the issue. ;)
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Originally posted by Eden
What do you think of the Springfield Armory M-1s in .308?
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-m1-garand.shtml
Check out the M1 Garand FAQ on this site...
Fulton Armory (http://www.fulton-armory.com/)
I emailed him about the M1s from Springfield and he said the receivers they are using are not real good.
I would try and get a CMP on, even if the finish is gone you can have it refinished and tuned for far les then a new one from Springfield.
I want one of their M14 rifle but I think I am going to get another M1 myself.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup. Laz nailed it again. Pre-Ban used is the way to go with a M1A. (semi-auto M14) The new guns on the cast receivers are just not cuttin the mustard... there's problems with third market (not USGI) parts in them too.
Yep.. you can get .308 chambered garands.. but why? If it ain't shootin the 30-06 then sight calibration is off, there's feed problems... cripes, if yer baseline ammo pick is .308, hunt up a good pre-ban M1A instead.
But, if yah fancy the grande dame of all battle rifles, the Garand is the lady to pursue and CMP is the place to get it. A fine shooter, accurate, deadly, lordy; they don't come any more competent than the Garand. It's shortcomings on a modern battle field are few, only 8 rounds a clip and it's a mite heavy. On the range, without reloading, they are can be pricy to shoot if you shoot a LOT.
For me, every time I go to the range I'm personally chewing thru at least 150 rounds of big caliber.. when the kids come along (quite often now) we burn up 500 or more between us.. 30-06 is just too damned expensive for me to shoot on that scale. It don't mean I don't like it.. it's just I can shoot twice to three times as much .308 or 7.62x54r for the same money. Once I have the runts trained up fully on the bolties I'll revisit the issue. ;)
I am not expert by any means but I thought that .308 and 30-06 shot the same tell the round was past 500 yards so shouldnt the sites be fine?
I have heard mixed things on the feeding.
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Originally posted by lazs2
ya know... I've been thinking of the lever action marlin 1895 trapper in stainless steel and 45-70 caliber... I can make excellent slugs from cast wheel weights and scrap lead... pick a powder that fills the case and it takes large rifle primers.... a good doomsday gun...
most people don't realize that it will also outpentrate .308 against say.... bulletproof glass... the old gun will do 500 yards real easy and the lever is dead reliable.
Best excuse I've had in a long time to get a new gun.
lazs
Hehe, then you should check this out
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
I love reading this guy's penetration tests. He really opened my eyes on a few things, but the .45-70 test at the end of this one ............ well, see for yourself. Enjoy! :)
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Hehe, then you should check this out
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
I love reading this guy's penetration tests. He really opened my eyes on a few things, but the .45-70 test at the end of this one ............ well, see for yourself. Enjoy! :)
LOL LOL
Don't get in any gun fights with buffalo hunters. There ain't no such thing as cover.
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Can I join your militia Hang? I'm not too bad of a shot with my BB gun
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Originally posted by lazs2
the springfields.... woe onto some of the springfields... I have heard that they don't use forged recievers... I have heard that because of that... the recievers stretch. stretch reciever=bad. Maybe this is not true anymore but you want a forged reciever no matter what... nothing else is "just as good"
lazs
Lazs, please stop hanging around with old wives, they tend to tell tales. :)
While a forged receiver is considered a better receiver, a quality cast receiver is still an excellant receiver. Of course, if you think you are going to shoot in excess of 50,000 rounds from one rifle, it might start to become a concern. Basically, if the receiver passes the Rockwell Hardness test, you will not stretch it and you will never know the differance cast or forged.
Have you ever known anyone who had a stretched receiver? Me neither. I haven't ever even heard of anyone actually having this problem, anywhere. Maybe it has happened somewhere to someone, but I am not aware of it.
BTW, LRB Arms sells forged M14 rifles and Smith Enterprises is coming out with a forged one too, and I believe Fulton Armory may be thinking of doing it. (M1A is a Springfield Armory trademark for their M14 semi-auto rifle)
I do get a kick out of those who talk about getting a bolt gun in place of a semi-auto for accuracy reasons. It is an extremely rare shooter using custom handloads, a shooting bench and a target an awful long way who might be able to see a differance between a bolt gun and a quality semi-auto like a well prepped and setup M1A.
dago
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Dago
Fulton is making their own Receivers now. Not sure if Cast or forged but I bet forged.
Check out their site you can buy a plain receiver, or a whole rifle from a stock looking M14 to ones with rails and pistol grips and look like they belong in a SCi Fi movie.
Damn I want one.....
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Overall most of the rifles talked about in the thread are good solid pieces of equipment and will get most any job you need taken care of.
I had thought about the "doomsday" option a few times and came to the conclusion that the best gun to have for the long term would be a lowly .22 with decent glass on it with a removable scope mount. My intent is not to be able to have a firefight. My intent is to be sneaky as hell, unspotted and able to take table meat with little noise and then fade into the woods again while giving little or no clue to where the shooting was done. A few bricks of .22 will give you more rounds than a case of any other round and be portable. If you have to scoot, whatever you can carry is what you are going to have. I'd grab a pistol in medium caliber and my best .22 and get outa dodge if I had to be in a hurry.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Dago
Fulton is making their own Receivers now. Not sure if Cast or forged but I bet forged.
Check out their site you can buy a plain receiver, or a whole rifle from a stock looking M14 to ones with rails and pistol grips and look like they belong in a SCi Fi movie.
Damn I want one.....
Plenty familiar with Fulton and their website. Decent builder.
If and when I was going to buy another M1A, it would be an LRB receiver. I would probably go with a custom builder like Ted Smith or Warbird. I do have a bunch of high end parts for the next one already, gotta get a barrel and receiver. You can buy a barreled receiver from LRB for a custom build, or have them do it. Next one is going to be setup for long range, 600yds +. Will probably go with a Sadlak scope mount and Leupold Mark 4 10x 40mm scope. Lots of details to the proper high end build, including cryogenic stress equilization. All NM parts with steel bedding in a McMillian synthetic stock, 1 in 10" 4 groove chrome moly barrel.
dago
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Hard to beat a .308 it has to be one of the finest rounds in the world. As for the FN Rifle, I used it in the Army back in the late 80s before Canada went to the C7 (M16A2). Its the finest rifle I have ever fired, accurate, comfortable, and easy to use. I would be happy anywhere with it. Well maintained it will last forever.
Friend of mine has an SKS in 7.62x39. Fine survival/bush rifle, if its well looked after, practically impossible to kill it. Easy to use.
.223s are fine for Spec Ops, but I think as a straight infantry weapon .308 is the way to go. All that stuff about carrying more ammo is all bunk, you want something that can kill at 600 yards and go through walls and bush. Armies are no different than Paris fashion designers, and "trends" just come along, .223 was the latest and greatest, so NATO went with it, back in the 50s men used to go everywhere with hats too, but that changed...:)
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THE BOX OF TRUTH!!
Gawd, I loved that... anybody that disbelieves a .308 kicks significant bellybutton compared to 5.56 through battlefield cover oughta check that link. Holy crap. I knew the .308 kicks butt, but damn!
New here's an eye opener.. the 30-06 packs a heckuva lot MORE whallop than the 7.62x54r commie ammo AND the .308 !
oooh ra. No wonder the M1 Garand is so highly prized, enh?
Scenario.. yer typical .223 ar15 clone gun bad guy behind the corner of a building. His adverary has a .308 clone gun, also behind the corner of a building. hmmmmm.
:D
No wonder the boys in Iraq can't get their hands on M-14's fast enough.
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hang..its the only .308 semi auto i have fired..but..I love it
FAL...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
check theses pics out....great site also..
http://www.falfiles.com
the para models are very very nice for moving aroundhttp://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89552&highlight=carbine%2A
truly a sweeet firing rifle..it fires like a Mereceds Benz rides
if i had budget id by the new SOCOM2..but those gOD awful...rails..jesus looks liek u can mount a Cusinart on it..along with an easy chair
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Ya the FAL is a nice nice gun.
If I could have one in my closet I would.
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Almost forgot, the mother of all "dont mess with me guns", 12 Guage Maverick Police/Combat full stock, 6 rnd capacity. Loaded with slugs its the poor mans air strike.
Scariest beast I have ever pulled the trigger on. I think the Firearms Registration Centre out in Ottawa heard me when I had it out last. :)
Got it at Lever Arms in Vancouver for 159 bucks.
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ever tried the 'rufus' (sp) 'incendary tracer' ammo in big calibers?
Lordy, that stuff is FUN! Explodes when it hits. The kids call it 'Hollywood Ammo'. ;)
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dago... the gunsmith in town told me that he had two m1's with cast recievers that won't hold headspace but I have never personally seen one.
I don't know if you are right or not about the "50,000 rounds" you may be... my gunsmith may be... all the companies switching back to forged recievers may be or the cheapo foriegn manufactureres and you may have the real answer..
My point? why take a chance... with 50,000 cpu of pressure in the typical ought six... I want the best reciever there is... My Garand has met the test over several battles.
mav... that is about how I feel about it... I would grab one of the 44's and make a silenced 22 semi auto rifle in the garage and stash all the other stuf for a while... If I needed more or the situation changed I could go to the stash or pick up whatever dead guys gun I liked.
Isn't someone gonna talk me out of spending a grand or so on a marlin lever carbine in 45-70 and the dies and brass and all that stuff?
lazs
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I allways thought that 270 winchester would be just about right for military rifle.
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Originally posted by lazs2
dago... the gunsmith in town told me that he had two m1's with cast recievers that won't hold headspace but I have never personally seen one.
I don't know if you are right or not about the "50,000 rounds" you may be... my gunsmith may be... all the companies switching back to forged recievers may be or the cheapo foriegn manufactureres and you may have the real answer..
My point? why take a chance... with 50,000 cpu of pressure in the typical ought six... I want the best reciever there is... My Garand has met the test over several battles.
mav... that is about how I feel about it... I would grab one of the 44's and make a silenced 22 semi auto rifle in the garage and stash all the other stuf for a while... If I needed more or the situation changed I could go to the stash or pick up whatever dead guys gun I liked.
Isn't someone gonna talk me out of spending a grand or so on a marlin lever carbine in 45-70 and the dies and brass and all that stuff?
lazs
Actually a good receiver should last closer to 400k - 500k rounds if fed the proper ammo, but that is not important as we will never fire that much.
Out of curiousity, I searched all the major M1A forums to see if this phenomenon was ever mentioned, and all I could find are the following three posts in one thread (in the order they were in ) with respect to receiver wear:
1) In Boston's Gun Bible, he mentions one SAI M1A that has receiver stretch. That's the only one I've ever heard of.
2) I'd like to meet some one who has the time to shoot enough rounds to wear out a M1A reciever. That said, even IF you could shoot enough to wear one out, Springfield will replace it, period.
No matter if you bought it new or used.
Pesonally, I just do not believe the M1A is prone to streaching. Futher more, if we knew what we do today about metal casting etc when the M1A was developed, I would not be suprized if they would not have been cast in the first place, IMHO.
3) I did have a nice discussion of the strength differences between a cast and forged receiver with my gunshop owner here a while ago who is a retired engineer from Pratt Whitney, working many years on military equipment and also a M14 enthusiast himself and the owner of 5 original class III M14's, one of them being a Smith build of a TRW receiver and parts. He said clearly that with modern casting techniques, a modern cast M14/M1A receiver is at least 80 to 90% as strong, if not as strong as a forged M14 receiver, and either way none of us would likely wear out or see a worn out receiver in our lifetime. I would have to say myself, that the main difference a person might see in a LRB receiver compared to a Springfield or other casting done right, might be the machining done closer to original usgi spec which would be better with mating some mounts and parts, but strength is not anything a person should worry about.
There pretty much seems to be agreement on the fact that a good cast receiver even when fired regularly will outlast the owner and probably his sons and grandsons.
I suspect if your gunsmith couldnt headspace, it was more likely his problem, because certainly rebarreling a rifle would allow any good gunsmith to set headspace, and in most cases replacing the bolt would allow it also. He just has to cut the chamber to the right dimension, headspacing is done between chamber and bolt face in the closeed position, and there is precious little receiver between those points. How could that tiny amount of receiver stretch enough to prevent headspacing?
While LRB is making forged receivers, and another one or two may soon bd doing it, it is more to satisfy a customer demand than correct a deficiency. Same as a buyer who wants only TRW parts, when all USGI parts were pretty much built to exactly the same tolerance, same specs, same materials and there has never been any practical or proven reason to feel one is superior to the others when all meet USGI specs.
dago
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ok... use cast recievers that are.... "allmost as good".. I really don't care. I will be one of those guys who wants the forged reciever. And why not? That's what real Garands came with. If I have problems with a gun I don't want to wonder if it is because of the cheapo cast reciever or not.
I have put 50,000 rounds through handguns. I really don't know where guys are getting the info on how many rounds it takes to wear out a cast vs a forged reciever. I would guess that everyone here is just pulling the numbers out their butt.
Seems prudent to go with the forged one tho... I am sure that LRB is making forged recievers to replace the cast ones for some other reason than perception... After all... you don't seem to care... all they would have to do is get some aero space guy to say in the add that the cast ones were "allmost as good" or... "at least 80-90% as good" as the forged jobs and save a lot of money.
I have seen some modern casting tech that is pretty impressive... powdered metal for connecting rods instead of forged etc.. but this is high dollar stuff... for the money... it is still impossible to beat a forged part.
lazs
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Not going to argue that a forged receiver is better, but making the point that a cast receiver from a good manufacturer is an excellant receiver and will last a few generations longer than you or I will. Truth is, the differance between the two is so inconsequential it doesnt matter.
What I am looking to do is dispel an incorrect old wives tail about receiver stretch. Not an issue, virtually unknown, and nobody has their headspace change from this mythical condition.
BTW, that P&W engineer was quoted in a discussion forum, not an ad, and P&W boys know more about metal, alloys, casting, etc than virtually anyone else, it is their main issue in engine development.
You just hate the fact that an M1A is a great rifle. :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Isn't someone gonna talk me out of spending a grand or so on a marlin lever carbine in 45-70 and the dies and brass and all that stuff?
lazs
You'd look good in a Stetson. Practice yer Jimmy Stewart accent and with that meatball lever action slug chucker carbine lashed in a Steve McQueen leather saddle scabbard hangin off the door of the Healey coupled with a slow bowlegged walk... why; every cuddlinghunk sappy brain dead corn-fed cowchick in Davis will wanna ride yer pony. BTW, don't most people that wanna kill fish under 4 feet of water just use a damn fishin pole?
(and I KNOW you can make as big a hole just as accurately and at about the same range with yer 1911 pistol, so it's gotta just be the lever-action goatropin' fever that sneaks up on most gun lovers at one time or another)
;)
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Originally posted by Dago
Not going to argue that a forged receiver is better, but making the point that a cast receiver from a good manufacturer is an excellant receiver and will last a few generations longer than you or I will. Truth is, the differance between the two is so inconsequential it doesnt matter.
What I am looking to do is dispel an incorrect old wives tail about receiver stretch. Not an issue, virtually unknown, and nobody has their headspace change from this mythical condition.
BTW, that P&W engineer was quoted in a discussion forum, not an ad, and P&W boys know more about metal, alloys, casting, etc than virtually anyone else, it is their main issue in engine development.
You just hate the fact that an M1A is a great rifle. :)
Dago, yer points taken.. modern technology being what it is 'n all..
My gripe rides with cost vs price. The new Springfield Armory Guns just don't have the impressive look and feel of a "real" Garand or military era M-14. Why is that? Could it be the degree of workmanship? The USGI parts that ain't there?
The 'new' Springfield Clones (odd calling a gun made by one of the original makers a clone, ain't it?) just don't have the same feel. Or performance.
Now, taking a weapon that cost about 300 bucks to build and selling it for 1200-1900 bucks is a consideration too. You think those clones are worth that money? Fact is we can buy the real USGI parts, drop 'em onto a 50 year old reciever with a new barrel, toss in a bunch other in good condition 50 year old parts and get a battle rifle that's better the clone in every way that's important.. for about 1/2 that price.
A 1200 dollar M1? a 1500 dollar M1A that'll never ever be able to rock 'n roll? No thanks. I'll build my own.
:D
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dago... here is my "perception"... I agree that it is possible to make cast recievers "allmost as good".... problem is... it takes no real talent to make a cast reciever... every china back room with a furnace for making iron gate ornaments can get in on the deal... You will admit that it is easy to make a really crappy cast part?
soooo... if it is so easy to make a bad cast part... and if they are finnished decent you can't tell if you got one of the good ones or one of the bad ones.... see my point? now take a forged part... not everyone does this kind of work... it is also mostly labor... highly skilled labor... a bad looking part is a bad part...
hang... thanks for trying but... that old 45-70 will still have a thousand pounds of energy at ranges that a 1911 45 acp couldn't break a light bulb at.
lazs
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Geez lazs, first you say they stretch, now you are concerned with telling a good one from a bad one. Actually, I bet you couldnt tell a cast from a forged one once parkerized.
And it is possible to tell a good cast from a bad cast, you check dimensional tolerances and see how they measure on the Rockwell hardness scale and you can make that determination.
dago
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Noooo... you aren't listening... it is easy to make a bad cast part that passes every inspection save maybe a magnaflux after extensive use. One with voids or whatever will finish up just fine.
Ask your rocket scientist friend if it is easy to get a badly cast part that looks fine. One that has voids will change dimmension (stretch/bend) or worse... break.
In the automotive world... even well cast parts stretch and bend or break.. there is no difference in firearms.. 50,000 cpu's is still a lot of pressure.
You may get a good cast part and then again... you may not. why take the chance?
It is like building a high horsepower drag race motor with cast crank or rods... you may get away with it (they are allmost as good) and then again.... you may not. How much are they saving on the cast recievers? With CNC... not that much... the way they are saving it is to get the cheapest castings they can. Ask em where the castings come from.
lazs
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HAH!
I should have my M1 back before the spring!
I am going to have the X ship it to fulton for a rebuild, and they will ship it to me here when done!
SWEEET!!
On the downside this thread has made me want a M14 type rifle too....
I think I will go with Fultons service grade.