Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKFokerFoder+ on December 01, 2005, 10:55:34 PM
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Last month, the TA152, even at the cheap perk price of about 5 points had the following stats
712 Kills 563 deaths K/D of 1.26
Total usage 0.2%
Lets look at other tours:
Tour 69
832 Kills 554 Deaths 1.50 K/d
Tour 68
1046 Kills 667 Deaths 1.57 K/D
Tour 67
1111 Kills 749 Deaths 1.48 K/D
Tour 66
385 Kills 252 Deaths 1.53 K/D
This is hardly an uber ride that deserves perking, even light perking.
And with a Spit16, KI84, LA7 and others running around free, the C Hog needs to at least have it's perk price cut to about a 3rd of what it is. I doubt if it will ever be unperked, just because of the terror that it once was, but the arena has changed a lot since those days.
The F4U-4 also seems a whole bunch over priced compared to its K/D and it's usage. I can understand a light perking, and definately a heavier perk than the C Hog, but it is not the monster that the Tempest is, and therefore does not deserve such a high price tag.
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Wow, an "unperk X plane" thread. That's a novelty. Looking for better vulching planes?
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
The F4U-4 also seems a whole bunch over priced compared to its K/D and it's usage. I can understand a light perking, and definately a heavier perk than the C Hog, but it is not the monster that the Tempest is, and therefore does not deserve such a high price tag.
I disagree, the F4U-4's perk price is just about right. Aside from the 4X20mm (which is why people pick it over the cheaper 4-Hog) IMO the F4U-4 is better than the Temp. Just because it doesnt get much use or people dont know how to use it, does not mean its not a monster, it is.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Wow, an "unperk X plane" thread. That's a novelty. Looking for better vulching planes?
Hard to get a much better vulching plane than the 190's
But the TA 152 isn't the vulcher that a 190A8 is. Those twin 30mm's backed by 2 20mms and 2 50 cals is a much more powerful vulching package than the 2 20's and one 30 mm on the TA 152. Plus the wings of a TA tear off too easily, and the deck speed sucks.
In order to set up a good vulch and not use up all your cannons, you use your 50 cals (or say 7.7 in a 109 or Spit) to start pinging the target, then once you get a solid ping on the helpless bogey (AKFodder starts to slaver) you give a short burst with the cannons. Bogey go POOF!
I think that really the best vulching plane in the arena is the Dora, vulch n scoot!
Then you quickly make sure you have channel 200 on to listen to the whine. :rofl :rofl :rofl
A vulch is never truly successful unless you get a good whine on channel 200! :aok
Anything with Hispanos is also good for vulching.
If you would like to go into the training arena sometime, or if you want to do a .join, I can show you some of the finer points of being a vulching scumbag :)
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Like I need scumbag training. I disagree on the 152, as the all cannon package makes it a supreme vulcher (1 ping even close is good enough), but it's performance that low is mediocre at best. Since it seems that it's performance is best at an alt at which no fight occurs in AH, I'd also support letting the perk price go.
I'm still of the opinion that the hogs should remain perked.
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Would the same go for Spit XIV?
Tour Kills Death K/D
69 1353 1248 1.08
68 1593 1192 1.33
67 1978 1479 1.33
Same as the 152 it's best alt is hardly suited for the MA also.
Quickly glancing back through the perk plane stats it remains almost exclusively the lowest k/d ratio of any perked plane. In fact the same few non perked planes are usually above it.
It may be a realistic option with the XVI ingame now.
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I know I'm a little slow, but I just don't get it.
Why not unperk em all. Once the initial thrill wore off, I kinda doubt it's gonna be 262 wars all over.
I just don't care what the other guy flies. At a certain point folks are going to want to find out if they can win in something besides the best ride...at least I'd hope so.
Ultimately you are going to have a continuous ebb and flow of new players with short attention spans that don't stick around that long. From that crowd a few will stick and try and become more then just face shooters, vulchers and runners. The rest will move on to something else because they won't have the staying power.
In the end there will continue to be a core of AH drivers who want more from the game then just score whoring and attaboy messages. Those guys are going to continue to grumble about how the short timers just don't get it, but they'll keep going up, looking for that one great 1 v 1 that keeps the blood flowing.
So unperk em all and let the AH gods sort em out.
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Originally posted by Grits
I disagree, the F4U-4's perk price is just about right. Aside from the 4X20mm (which is why people pick it over the cheaper 4-Hog) IMO the F4U-4 is better than the Temp. Just because it doesnt get much use or people dont know how to use it, does not mean its not a monster, it is.
I had trouble following you through that. The-4 is now cheaper than the C-Hog?
Anyway, what about the P-47N? How does it match up against the -4?
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IMO there are only 3 planes worth perking -
262, 163 and the Tempest.
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A price of 5 perks bothers you ?! How many perks do you have?
Shoot down 1 La7 or a spit with 190A8 and you have that. If you have 300 perks (cost of 262?) it's enough for 60 sorties in which you don't kill a single plane and die every time. Assume you have a K/D of 1 and you kill mostly the common low ENY rides, the cost per death reduces to near 4 perks - enough for 75 death sorties.
Spit 14 has a price of about 15 perks. I cover that with a 2-3 kill sortie in a P47 (no need to land even). This is the only spit I take (and the only perk ride I fly) and I can completly ignore the fact it's a perk ride. I hardly ever manage to land it (because I suck with it, not a plane problem) but I don't even check its perk price.
I believe Ta152 is perked in order for it not to be the "regular" 190 in the areana. If anything, I'd like to see a lot more planes in the "single digit" perk category. What are perks or ENY good for if there's nothing to sped the perks on.
Stop counting your perks and start spending them. That's what they are there for.
Bozon
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I don't fly the Ta 152 much anymore, not because it is perked (nearly 7000 perks so can afford quite a few Ta's) but simply because the plane is no good. The other 190's are mostly better, the Ta 152 is unstable, very unstable, as is the Dora but nearly as unstable as the Ta 152. Ta 152 doesn't roll well due to long wings.
I wouldn't mind unperking the Spit 14 and F4u4 either BUT the C HOG NEEDS TO STAY PERKED.
If it was to be unperked again it would become just as popular. Remember, it wasn't perked because it was fast or had a great K/D. It was perked because it had the highest amount of kills of any plane in AH (hands down) thanks to its 4x20mm guns and CV capability (together with a big load of bombs an rockets). Also, it is very easy to fly for some reason, very forgiving even though it has somewhat of a snapstall it feels as if it completely lacks any sort of tourqe.
Unperk the rest but keep the C hog perked.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
IMO there are only 3 planes worth perking -
262, 163 and the Tempest.
yeah same, and the prices are about right too. every other perk plane simply isn't that great, infact tho, the chog and 4hog need perking too, but very lightly
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I would like them to fix the Flight Model and update the graphics too.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Hard to get a much better vulching plane than the 190's
But the TA 152 isn't the vulcher that a 190A8 is. Those twin 30mm's backed by 2 20mms and 2 50 cals is a much more powerful vulching package than the 2 20's and one 30 mm on the TA 152. Plus the wings of a TA tear off too easily, and the deck speed sucks.
In order to set up a good vulch and not use up all your cannons, you use your 50 cals (or say 7.7 in a 109 or Spit) to start pinging the target, then once you get a solid ping on the helpless bogey (AKFodder starts to slaver) you give a short burst with the cannons. Bogey go POOF!
I think that really the best vulching plane in the arena is the Dora, vulch n scoot!
Then you quickly make sure you have channel 200 on to listen to the whine. :rofl :rofl :rofl
A vulch is never truly successful unless you get a good whine on channel 200! :aok
Anything with Hispanos is also good for vulching.
If you would like to go into the training arena sometime, or if you want to do a .join, I can show you some of the finer points of being a vulching scumbag :)
Oh, the Ta152 EXCEEDS any FW in vulching. You can do a pendulum motioned vulch, and rack up 7 kills and still climb up to 8k. I know you can, I've done it more than a few times. IMO, the Ta has the best gun package on any plane in AH, again, that is MY opinion.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Slash27
I had trouble following you through that. The-4 is now cheaper than the C-Hog?
Sorry, I wasnt clear, I was talking about the Temp. I think the -4 Hog is better than the Temp, but people choose the more expensive Temp because of the 4x20mm.
Originally posted by Kev367th
IMO there are only 3 planes worth perking -
262, 163 and the Tempest.
I agree.
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You have to remember the Ta-152 was designed to intercept high alt bombers, not furball:O
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Oh, the Ta152 EXCEEDS any FW in vulching. You can do a pendulum motioned vulch, and rack up 7 kills and still climb up to 8k. I know you can, I've done it more than a few times. IMO, the Ta has the best gun package on any plane in AH, again, that is MY opinion.
Karaya
Um how is 2x 151/20 and 1 mk108 the best gun package in AH? The 110 can carry double that and alot more ammo and is a way better plane then the 152. IF a la7 jumped me on the deck Id rather be in a 110 atlease it can out turn a la7 the 152 is just a siting duck.
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the Ta152, if used in it's intended role of bomber interception at high altitudes is still inadequate in AH. I use it but even if it were unperked it wouldn't change the frequency of use for me. the guns hit a ton though.
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The F4u4 should not be unperked. It absolutely dominates La7's.
Hell, I once had a p51b engage me thinking I was just another F4u. I out accelerated, out turned, out looped, out fought him. Pure domination.
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Originally posted by bozon
A price of 5 perks bothers you ?! How many perks do you have?
Shoot down 1 La7 or a spit with 190A8 and you have that. If you have 300 perks (cost of 262?) it's enough for 60 sorties in which you don't kill a single plane and die every time. Assume you have a K/D of 1 and you kill mostly the common low ENY rides, the cost per death reduces to near 4 perks - enough for 75 death sorties.
Spit 14 has a price of about 15 perks. I cover that with a 2-3 kill sortie in a P47 (no need to land even). This is the only spit I take (and the only perk ride I fly) and I can completly ignore the fact it's a perk ride. I hardly ever manage to land it (because I suck with it, not a plane problem) but I don't even check its perk price.
I believe Ta152 is perked in order for it not to be the "regular" 190 in the areana. If anything, I'd like to see a lot more planes in the "single digit" perk category. What are perks or ENY good for if there's nothing to sped the perks on.
Stop counting your perks and start spending them. That's what they are there for.
Bozon
First of all 5 perks doesn't bother me, I have well over 2000 perkies. Just take up a 109G2 or a F4U-1 and you should get well over 8 perkies even if you get shot down. Even if you unperk the 152, I still won't fly it. Maybe a bit more, but I doubt it. The Dora is a much better MA ride, I find it a lot more survivable down low where the fighting is.
I hardly fly perk planes because compared to the LA7 or Spit16 most perkies aren't that good. If I want a uber ride I take the LA or the 16.
As for perking the Hogs, it just shows how really good the Hog was. 2 out of 4 Hogs are perked. Most hogs (except the D) have a high K/D
C Hog 2.27
-4 Hog 2.01
F4U-1 1.29
F4U-D 0.75
And that is after the FM for the C Hog was porked at the same time it was perked and the D Hog has always had the FM of a pig. In real life, the Hog had a K/D of 11 to 1. But AH isn't real life. ;)
When it was not perked in tour 15 we had 27,717 kills with a C Hog as compared to 11,748 Kills with a Spit 9.
This tour we had 3 non-perk planes that had more kills that the C Hog in tour 15.
The TA152 isn't good enough to rate a perk, and perked or unperked it isn't going to be a popular ride.
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The Ta 152 was not designed as a high altitude bomber interceptor, that is a common misstake to think.
It was designed as a high-altitude long range air superiority fighter designed for many different roles such as, long range escorts, furballing, recce (H10 was recce version) aswell as bomber interceptor.
Another common misstake is to think that is served as a 262 airfield protection plane, it didn't.
Third is that just because it was maximized for high alt everybody seems to think it sucked down low (think AH has a part in that). It was quite capable, more so then the 190's at all alts.
The more dedictaed buff hunters would have been the A and B modells, which were both heavily armed.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
The Ta 152 was not designed as a high altitude bomber interceptor, that is a common misstake to think.
It was designed as a high-altitude long range air superiority fighter designed for many different roles such as, long range escorts, furballing, recce (H10 was recce version) aswell as bomber interceptor.
Another common misstake is to think that is served as a 262 airfield protection plane, it didn't.
Third is that just because it was maximized for high alt everybody seems to think it sucked down low (think AH has a part in that). It was quite capable, more so then the 190's at all alts.
The more dedictaed buff hunters would have been the A and B modells, which were both heavily armed.
Unfortunately I think it's a lost cause Wil...
:(
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Yeah the Ta 152 was similar to any late war allied fighter down low. Kurt Tank said he outaccelerated and outran two p51s on the deck in a Ta 152 during a civilian flight. Yes it was optimized for high altitude fighting but that doesn't mean it should be crap down low. Its too bad the FM is all messed up or I would definately fly it more often. Eric Brown loved the Ta 152 when he flew it after the war.
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Originally posted by Stang
Unfortunately I think it's a lost cause Wil...
:(
Ya rgr that bro. Just trying to give some more info for those who don't know it.
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The 4-hog is a MONSTER... if you think anything else, you either suck or don't know how to fly it. Or both. The 152 pretty much sucks unless you want to have 1-2 fights a month flying at its best altitude, but so few were in service in the war it really should be perked.
Originally posted by Kev367th
Would the same go for Spit XIV?
Same as the 152 it's best alt is hardly suited for the MA also.
Quickly glancing back through the perk plane stats it remains almost exclusively the lowest k/d ratio of any perked plane. In fact the same few non perked planes are usually above it.
It may be a realistic option with the XVI ingame now.
That's because the majority of people who pick an XIV are spit newbies that want to fly the "uber spit" and try to angle fight with it like it's a seafire. Give a decent pilot (I'd say less than 2% of people in AH qualify) a spit XIV and you'll see EXACTLY why it should be perked.
cliffs: 4-hog owns, 152 sucks (it should be best 190 variant :huh) but should be perked anyway, spit XIV owns unless you suck, vulching is for losers
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The reason the F4U-1C was perked is it has 4x20mm and takes a boatload of damage to bring down. This makes it the ultimate HOer, and that distinction was reserved for other rides... ;)
However, it is the worse handling hog, by far, even though it is only slightly heavier than the -1D (295 lbs more, equivalent to less than a 1/4 tank of gas).
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Originally posted by Kev367th
IMO there are only 3 planes worth perking -
262, 163 and the Tempest.
I'm with him.
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It is quite simple really... if you do not have the pathetic amount of perks to fly the 152 you are not good enough to fly it.
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Originally posted by Larry
Um how is 2x 151/20 and 1 mk108 the best gun package in AH? The 110 can carry double that and alot more ammo and is a way better plane then the 152. IF a la7 jumped me on the deck Id rather be in a 110 atlease it can out turn a la7 the 152 is just a siting duck.
I was in a turnfight in 152's with a squaddie (OddCAF) OTD with an La7. I was turning with him for 3 turns, he ran.
110 is a POS.
Karaya
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Well actually I'd say the 110 is the best dogfighter LW has got in AH.
Something with the twins in AH...
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Do you use speed or it's ability to turn in a dogfight?
I tried some 110 fights, but wasn't too pleased
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110 c5 is pretty nimble... thing can smack spits around if you know what you're doing
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Mostly its turning ability. The speed isn't all that great but not all that bad either.
What makes it extremely dangerous in a dogfight (and even morein a furball) is its 2x20mm and 2x30mm all nose mounted, and if you're feeling crazy you can always load up two more 20's giving you 4x20's and 2x30's with 1150 rounds of 20mm!
Of course that makes it heavier and isn't really needed but can be fun anyway.
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I thought that only the C-4 was actually designed as a dogfight, while the other (G-version) was meant to be an attacker/bomber 'zerstorer'?
I never liked heavy armament during turnfights though, 9 out of 10 times, Im not in the position to fire, and when I am, I don't need more than 1 x 20mm :)
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The 110's was from the beginning designed as a "Zerstöhrer" or "Destroyer". Never a dogfighter as such although it was designed to fullfill that roll aswell.
The designe and idea popped up already during WW1 but due to technical difficulties nothing ever came to real life.
Many countries resurected the idea prior and during WW2 with twin engine long ranged heavily armed planes. They all had the same idea of long range escorts and long range air surpession. Of course it didn't work when they came up against nimble single seaters.
Remember the C4 was very heavily armed for its time (all nose mounted armament with lots of ammo). The 110 like all other planes evolved during the war, armament being one of the most noticable differences.
Spit went from 8x303's to using 20's and 50 cal. 109's, although using only a single 20mm instead of two wing mounted recieved more ammo (aswell as 13mm instead of 7.9mm) + gondolas. 190's same thing. P51's same thing etc. Just normal evolution.
So the G2 in AH (G4 was nightfighter btw) is really just a late war 110 designed for the same thing as the C4 was.
Armament and speed and surprisngly even climbrate makes it much more suited for AH engagements.
I often get quick snapshots in a fight but flying planes with somewhat, "inferior" armament (MG151 doesn't really pack that much of a punh and can be tough to hit with and HO-5 packs even less punch but easier to hit + high RPM) the kill isn't always guarantied. 109K4 is a whole other thing though not to mention the 110 G2 where, if the enemy as much as passes infront of the plane it is almost a guarantied kill.
Quick kills keep you alive in environments where you are heavily outnumbered.
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I swear by my 110G. You wouldn't know it by my stats because I toolshed heavily with it, but in a 1v1 against a pilot of similar skill, it'll outfly most planes. You can stall fight to an extent, full flaps it turns on a dime (burns alot of E though) and the armament is superior to just about every thing. Also it takes a ton of punishment and 2 engines is better than one.
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Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
I swear by my 110G. You wouldn't know it by my stats because I toolshed heavily with it, but in a 1v1 against a pilot of similar skill, it'll outfly most planes. You can stall fight to an extent, full flaps it turns on a dime (burns alot of E though) and the armament is superior to just about every thing. Also it takes a ton of punishment and 2 engines is better than one.
Yup yup and yup. Flaps can come out at 220mph unlike all other german birds.
Only thing really vulnerable on it is the tail, comes off easily.
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Perk all 1945 planes.better yet perk all planes from 40 to 45 graduatly,i need to use my perks ;)
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I seem to recall that one of the reasons for perking planes was also to retain some kind of historically accurate mix. The 1945 era planes should be rarities. At least that's how I recall the discussions ending up a couple of times.
The Ta is a barge, though, with fragile wings. I think its perk price is right in view of its scarcity, but its modelling is hosed.
The C-Hog had to be perked because of how much cannons dominate the game for A2A and A2G and HO. Given how bad my gunnery is due to long periods of not flying I should probably switch to the C-Hog.
The Temp should be perked. Period.
The Spit14 ... dunno ... I rarely bother with Spits. I'll take everyone's word for it's performance.
But I don't see what's so great about the 4-Hog. I tooled around offline a little and it felt a little quicker and lighter on the controls, but didn't see anything there that the La-7 couldn't do just as well for free. It should be perked because it was introduced so late in the war, but it seems overpriced for a plane with just 6 .50's. Also, since the 4-Hog can carry so much ord the high perk price inhibits the role for which it was intended.
-DoK
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The meaning of the perk thing from beginning, as I understood was to prevent overuse of planes. Not to keep rare planes rare.
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I might think that the Ta-152 remains perked as is the only contemporary aircraft of the Tempest and the F4U-4, and for gameplay balance of the Luftwaffe set .It is the only aircraft in the LW that has the Range of the P-51D and Beyond and of course is a fighter furthermore it would minimize the chance of a mounting cadre of whiners who would like other perks being unperked like the F4-U4(which is a monster) The Tempest(holy mother of kurt tank this is a rocket) the SpitXIV(this plane should be lowered to Ta or CHOG ranges) , the CHOG(perked because of all the HO dweebs getting 20% of kill and unbalancing gameplay with all HOs at any one time,needs to remain perked.)
Now either they want it to be perked for they will eventually review and Fix(in a positive way) the plane or keep it perked for the mention above aircraft. Just like some people call for perking the 190D-9 . It's no point as of right now to unperk it, it would be nice to see it unperked for a tour or two to see how much usage it gets in the MA,which will probably be none , it can't pull hi G turns, it can't climb very fast,, doesn't have a top speed or well of an advantage in top speed until you reach 22k, it stalls very badly, and it can't turn since you'll be most of the time uncoordinated or stalled,and it accelerates like a diabetic ,over weight, old woman, in the Mohave Desert, in High Noon in the Summer.
I don't think it's a good idea because once you Unperk the Ta-152 the whine police will come to unperk other aircraft ,much worse aircraft,for 'balance' with the ussual reasons, of that it is a rare bird, that only one operational squad.... blah, blah, blah. So it won't
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F4U-4 totally pwns the La7.
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Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
Also it takes a ton of punishment and 2 engines is better than one.
I'll disagree on that one. It's a gigantic target, and on any kind of solid deflection shot, pieces are gonna fall off. Important ones. 6-shooting it's not quite as big, but that tail was sewn on instead of welded.
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Ta152 in todays Aces High has no business being perked. Its a dog down low and that's where it counts.
I can think of any number of planes I would fly before I paid for a Ta152 with a gang bang me please tag over my head.
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Yup 152 is a pregnant hippo even in the most skilled hands. If you get in trouble against anything a shade more manueverable than a b24, you are done.
Hogs should remain perked. That C hog with the 4 20's is a hoss, and if anyone says that the F4u4 isn't worth the price, you could be flying it wrong. It has some serious strengths. I know the gun package isn't the most optimal, but that is definetely one of the top 5 planes in the game in terms of what you can do with it.
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Well, stop calling for the unperking of the Ta152!
Rather, call out for the FIXING of the Ta152 to be WORTH its perks!
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Wow..
All you gotta do is read a thread like this and you can understand in one brief moment just how much the people you fly with EVERY DAY don't understand the role of this plane vs that other plane.
Gads...
It's scary that 80% of the people in this game only understand 4 of the available rides.
Anyhow, all that aside... Due to the altitude that things in AH occur, I agree, perking the TA152 is a little silly. By that rationale, most of the P38's should be perked..
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Originally posted by Kurt
Wow..
All you gotta do is read a thread like this and you can understand in one brief moment just how much the people you fly with EVERY DAY don't understand the role of this plane vs that other plane.
Gads...
It's scary that 80% of the people in this game only understand 4 of the available rides.
Anyhow, all that aside... Due to the altitude that things in AH occur, I agree, perking the TA152 is a little silly. By that rationale, most of the P38's should be perked..
For some reason there has always been a perk bias against planes that perform best at altitudes where no fights occur. This is even so if planes, like the Ta152, perform poorly even when compared to un-perked rides at altitudes where 99% of the fights do occur (below 15k). Conversely, planes that perform like doggy doo-doo where fights do not occur (above 15k), but perform exceptionally well where fights do occur (below 15k), much better than most of the perked planes, are left un-perked.
I can't explain this. I suppose some of the perked/un-perked issues could be hold-overs from the inception of AH when the plane-set was far more limited, but even so it doesn't make alot of sense. It's obvious from the amount of fiddling with ENY values and perk costs HTC agrees there is some room for improvement on this issue. I just hope they continue to pro-actively view the Post-Camp Fighter Stats and make adjustments where necessary, they have in the past, so there is no reason to believe they will not continue to do so.
Zazen
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The only way to fly the 152 is B&Z.
In a fight you can make 1 decent turn in it but thats it.
You try a second turn right after the first turn and unless the person your going against it totally inexperianced you just signed your own death warrant.
Even at high alt in a co alt fight it isnt what I would call manuverable.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Wow..
All you gotta do is read a thread like this and you can understand in one brief moment just how much the people you fly with EVERY DAY don't understand the role of this plane vs that other plane.
Gads...
It's scary that 80% of the people in this game only understand 4 of the available rides.
Anyhow, all that aside... Due to the altitude that things in AH occur, I agree, perking the TA152 is a little silly. By that rationale, most of the P38's should be perked..
Kurt, Posted this above a few days back:
The Ta 152 was not designed as a high altitude bomber interceptor, that is a common misstake to think. It was designed as a high-altitude long range air superiority fighter designed for many different roles such as, long range escorts, furballing, recce (H10 was recce version) aswell as bomber interceptor. Another common misstake is to think that is served as a 262 airfield protection plane, it didn't. Third is that just because it was maximized for high alt everybody seems to think it sucked down low (think AH has a part in that). It was quite capable, more so then the 190's at all alts. The more dedictaed buff hunters would have been the A and B modells, which were both heavily armed.
Yes the Jumo 213E was maximized for extreme altitude performance but the engine delivered lots of power down low aswell, specially with the MW50 injection.
All the action that was seen by the Ta 152's during the war took place at low altitude against greater odds every time and yet they lost two planes only.
Hell they even had to fight a squadron of 1 late war 109's because the 109's didn't recognise them. (they didn't shoot back nor did they lose any planes to the 109's, they outclimbed them).
To think the Ta 152 is purly a high altitude plane is to think wrong and that is a misstake many many people do.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Yes the Jumo 213E was maximized for extreme altitude performance but the engine delivered lots of power down low aswell, specially with the MW50 injection.
All the action that was seen by the Ta 152's during the war took place at low altitude against greater odds every time and yet they lost two planes only.
Hell they even had to fight a squadron of 1 late war 109's because the 109's didn't recognise them. (they didn't shoot back nor did they lose any planes to the 109's, they outclimbed them).
To think the Ta 152 is purly a high altitude plane is to think wrong and that is a misstake many many people do.
Well, Wilbus, let me get a little more concise on my remark which you were responding to...
You're talking about bonafide WWII numbers and results... Like it or not, they don't mean very much in some AH cases. I'm not talking about your understanding (or anyone elses) of what planes did in real life. I'm talking about what planes do in AH.
The role of a fighter in AH is defined by how it is actually used in the game. Don't let reality cloud your vision. In real life, the 190's and 109's were reported to easily turn with Spitfires... But in AH turning those FW birds is like trying to turn a locomotive... Reality simply doesn't apply here.
The role that the TA152 fits in AH is very narrow. So narrow that any other perk plane and almost all of the non-perk planes can smack the crud out of it 6 days out of 7. Nothing with that narrow of scope should be a perk.
If you unperk it, it's not as if you're going to see a sky full of TA152's. It's a great plane for specific missions, Special events and such. But in the MA its mostly a hanger queen.
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Originally posted by Kurt
The role of a fighter in AH is defined by how it is actually used in the game. Don't let reality cloud your vision. In real life, the 190's and 109's were reported to easily turn with Spitfires... But in AH turning those FW birds is like trying to turn a locomotive... Reality simply doesn't apply here.
But you're applying artificial titles on planes because they are not modeled properly. Rather than say "The Fw 190 is not a fighter in AH" you ought to say "The AH 190 is not modeled properly, and as such can not be flown as it was historically."
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Originally posted by Krusty
Rather than say "The Fw 190 is not a fighter in AH" you ought to say "The AH 190 is not modeled properly, and as such can not be flown as it was historically."
Thats exactly what I did say, so much so that I'm not sure why you felt the need to reword it for me.... The modles in AH aren't reality, and you can't apply real-world expectations to them... Titles are nothing more than words.
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You were limiting the capabilities of the plane based on what this particular flight sim does, rather than stating that the abilities of the planes are not modeled properly. There is a subtle difference. I was merely pointing that out
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Originally posted by Krusty
You were limiting the capabilities of the plane based on what this particular flight sim does, rather than stating that the abilities of the planes are not modeled properly. There is a subtle difference. I was merely pointing that out
I figured the inaccuracies in the flight models are well known and understood and didn't require explicit comment.
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Theres two big problems -
1) For even approaching 100% accuracy requires more code than I think is even close to worth it for any game.
2) To run it you'd have to be prepared to spend $100,000's on a super computer.
Why do you think Boeing or Airbus doesn't run their sims on home Pc's?
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Kev, at some point you pass the point of diminishing returns. The difference between 99% and 100% accurate might be $10,000 and $100,000 respectively.
What AH has isn't even 2 percent. It's got climb and top speed, and that's the 2%! All the other 98 points about the plane are completely screwed up.
Hell I'd settle for 10%... Okay maybe 20%... Most other AH planes are in the range of 40-50% accurate I'd say (not counting gunnery, just flight).
That's not too much to ask.
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The Ta152 is the least expensive perk ride now, even less than the Chog. Last night it was only 4 perks while the Chog was 10. I wont fly it even if it is free, with the P-47N you have a free plane that does what the 152 does at high alt, only better.
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Agreed Krusty -
Point is there only so much you can get from graphs etc.
The only true test is if a former pilot of the plane in question tries it on a sim. Even then as you say, there comes a point where it's just not worth it anymore.
E.g -
I have a Gazelle I sometimes fly in FS2004, everything on the surface seems right. They got their data from graphs and flight tests.
One thing you can't reproduce is a main rotor jack stall, its just not part of the usual data gathered.
I can't honestly say how accurate any plane in AH2 is, all seem to suffer from one or another problem.
Consider yourself lucky -
Both the US and LW are heavily (over 60%+) biased to 1944/45.
Us poor RAF fans make do with around half that, and 2 out the 3 are perked, the other is at 1943 performance levels. We haven't even got a 1945 plane.
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Ok, so now we've reached the point where one of you has flown a TA152, or for that matter any of the planes in this game and knows what is 2% and what is 50%?
Come on... Any minute now, HiTech is going to pop in and utter my most favorite line... "If you can write a better Massive online flight sim, go do it."
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Originally posted by Kurt
Ok, so now we've reached the point where one of you has flown a TA152, or for that matter any of the planes in this game and knows what is 2% and what is 50%?
Come on... Any minute now, HiTech is going to pop in and utter my most favorite line... "If you can write a better Massive online flight sim, go do it."
Well, that statement would just come out of frustration. In the 20 times I've previously seen this topic, I haven't seen one person agree the 152 should have a perk tag in this environment. The only factor to argue about is the firepower, which the unperked a8 has more of. HTC had the opportunity to fix this when the 190's were redesigned, but they didn't touch the 152. That tells me that either they didn't deem it necessary for a redesign, or it just isn't worth the effort they'd have to put in it. If I were a betting man, I'd choose the latter.
Would be nice to hear an explanation of the perk value once and for all though.
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Unperk the TA152.
Perk the D9 and the K4 instead.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Come on... Any minute now, HiTech is going to pop in and utter my most favorite line... "If you can write a better Massive online flight sim, go do it."
Why not? Someone said that to him, once :)
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Look at it this way -
If Microsoft with all their resources and money still have problems (FS2004, CFS3), you gotta hand it to HTC for getting things as good as they are.
It's never as easy as changing one single value.
Perk costs/reasons have always frustrated me, doesn't seem to be a logic to it.
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Missundertsood your post Kurt, I took it as you were talking about the real deal.
Of course it is different in AH.
As for the Fw 190's though, they were never reported to turn easily with Spitfires, but they were reported to duke it out with them and do it ALOT, specially in the first year the Fw 190 was in combat. This was thanks to alot of other nice feutures of the 190. Of course, to duke it out with a Spit in a 190 (any 190 vs any spit) in AH is suicide, hell even a poorly flown spit V will eat a Dora to lunch unless the Dora keeps it stricly high speed B&Z and starts with alt.
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Originally posted by Kurt
The role that the TA152 fits in AH is very narrow. So narrow that any other perk plane and almost all of the non-perk planes can smack the crud out of it 6 days out of 7. Nothing with that narrow of scope should be a perk.
If you unperk it, it's not as if you're going to see a sky full of TA152's. It's a great plane for specific missions, Special events and such. But in the MA its mostly a hanger queen.
Even unperked it will be a hangar queen.
I am sure I am not the only one who finds the perk system to be a bit of a mystery. That is, why one plane is perked, and another better plane isn't? Especially in an arena that doesn't model realistic game play in the sense of two sides, and Axis vs Allies, and 1941 vs 1945.
I have flown the 152 enough to know that it will never be my main ride perked or unperked. Sure it turns better than most 190s, but it is hardly a turn fighter. It's firepower isn't as good as a A8, and about the same as the 109s with a 30 nose spinner and gondolas. True the 20s are a bit more inboard on the 190s which helps. But 4 hispanos are better than the 152 gun package.
Down low is where it counts in the Main Arcade server. And down low you have to either be:
A: Really fast, with good acceleration and firepower
OR
B: Really agile, with good acceleration
OR
C: Fly in hordes
The 152 does not turn good enough, nor accelerate fast enough, nor does it have a great top end speed.
The game play in the Main Arcade is based on land grab; killing gv's and hangars at a field, then supressing any air defense of the field (vulching) untill a goon or a M3 arrives. This forces the game play away from higher altitude fighter to fighter combat, and gets it down low and dirty. Attackers attack in mass to suppress (vulch), defenders HO, Lalas and Spit thrive in this kind of arena.
In the Main Arcade game play, the 152 as modeled in AH is a target drone, not the monster it was.
Perking a dog doesn't turn it into an uber ride.
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Originally posted by straffo
Unperk the TA152.
Perk the D9 and the K4 instead.
Oh no! :huh
We'll have to dust off our C.205s .....
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SHHHH!!! Don't let them know about AH's most under-rated plane!
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Opinions and reality are different things.
Respect for the best propeller fighter of WWII. The TA 152.
Only Tempest would dare to stand infrond of it.
Lets see one of the last Dogfights of WWII between TA 152 and Tempest.
Conclusions yours.
http://hem.passagen.se/chla/stories.htm
The dogfight of the two most advanced piston-engined fighters of WW2
The Stabsschwarm of JG301 was the unit to fly the Ta 152 operationally. The pilots were impressed by it's handling characteristics. One pilot said:
"-The flying characteristics put all previous German fighters completely in shade. Although I never flew the Me 262 jet, I would venture to suggest that the Ta 152 was far better when it came to dogfighting with the Allied fighters then in service."
So, the Ta 152 was good, the Tempest was also good. Who was better? The Stabsshwarm of JG 301 was stationed at Neustadt-Glewe. On 14. April after returning from a mission two enemy Aircraft were reported strafing Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152s were ordered to scramble at once- piloted by Oberstleutant Aufhammer, Oberfeldwebel Sattler and Oberfeldwebel Reschke.
"-As the direction of take-off was in line with the railway tracks leading straight to Ludwigslust, we were almost immediately in contact wit enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests Flying in No. 3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the two Tempest had clearly only just registered our presence. So it was now two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shot-down our V-1s. But here, in a fight which would not rise above 50m, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realized from the start it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactial ploy possible to gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began to fully appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once felling that I was approaching the limit of the Ta 152 capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights , the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside of me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta 152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapon went silent, and despite all my efforts to clean them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot didn't realize my predicament as he'd already taken hits. Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself, so I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually-inevitably-he stalled. The Tempest's left wing droped and he crashed into the woods below. It so happened that that the sit of Oberfeldwebel Sattler's crash site and that of the Tempest pilot, who proved to be New Zealender Wt Off O. J. Mitchell, were only about a kilometer apart. They were buried side-by-side in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery next day with full military honors."
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Conclusions yours
one Ta152 down and one Temp down.
Killing the 152 didn't require any action of the Temps.
=>
Temp is more efficient.
:D
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another one view of the story http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/fragments/fot_best.htm
Two of the Best
It was the 14th April 1945 and the war against Germany was rapidly drawing to an end. A young New Zealander from Nelson, Warrant Officer Owen Mitchell, had found that he was centre-stage to the death-throes of a nation.
An excellent cricketer and sensitive musician Mitchell had joined the RNZAF in 1942 directly from University where he had been studying engineering. At 20 years of age the young pilot transferred to England where, after training, he started to accumulate flying hours as an instructor and pilot with various Operational Training Units.
By early 1945 Mitchell had over 700 hours to his credit and was converted onto the latest fighter in the RAF inventory - the Hawker Tempest V. The next step was operational flying and he was delighted, when in early March he found that he had been posted to No. 486 (NZ) Squadron based at Volkel in Holland. The squadron was on the front-line and coming into daily contact with a still very efficient Luftwaffe as well as fierce anti-aircraft fire.
By early April the squadron had moved into Germany itself and was using their base at Hopsten to harass the enemy both in the air and on the ground.
At the German base of Neustadt-Glewe, Oberfeldwebel Sattler was also delighted with his new posting - to the elite Luftwaffe unit called the Stabsschwarm (part of JG301). They were flying the latest German fighter and ultimate development of the Focke Wulf 190 series of aircraft - the Ta-152.
At 6-25pm on the evening of the 14th Mitchell and three others from his squadron took off on an armed reconnaissance of the area. The section attacked a train north of Ludwigslust and then became split up. The leader and his number two ordering Sid Short and Owen Mitchell to make their own ways home.
Short and Mitchell, busily strafing along the rail tracks nearby on their way home, came under the watchful eye of lookouts at Neustadt-Glewe who immediately despatched three Ta-152 to intercept. The pilots - Aufhammer, Sattler and Reschke were on the scene in seconds. Reschke takes up the story;
"Flying in No.3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It seemed impossible for the crash to be from enemy action."
Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece.
In the meantime Reschke and Mitchell were also in mortal combat.
"So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.
Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.
Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us."
The young New Zealander was killed instantly and in a quirk of fate his aircraft crashed less than 500 metres from the German pilot Sattler. The Luftwaffe technicians recovered the two pilots' bodies that evening.
The next day Mitchell and Sattler were buried side by side with full military honours in the Cemetery Neustadt-Glewe. During the funeral Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke stood guard of honour in front of the coffins.
It is fitting to end this story here by allowing these two relatively unknown pilots - each flying arguably the most advanced piston-engined fighter produced by their respective nations to see service in the air war over Western Europe - to represent the many thousands on both sides who had gone before.
Footnote:
In 1947 the body of Owen James Mitchell was reinterred in the British Military Cemetery in Heerstrasse, Berlin. The Missing Research and Enquiry Unit who recovered the body in September 1947 noted;
"We visited the area (now in the Russian Zone) and found Body No. 1. This body was found to be clothed in khaki battledress and had New Zealand marked on the shoulder. The socks were RAF blue and the boots RAF escape type flying boots. On a handkerchief found in the pocket I found the name Pettitt in print letters, about ¼ inch high on the hem."
Owen Mitchell, the New Zealander from Nelson was killed 18 days before the end of hostilities.
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Take a look also here... http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=482089
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another one.... http://uncleted.jinak.cz/sTa152H.htm
Tempests vs. Ta 152H, 14 April 1945
By Prof. Erata
Background: While carrying on a final rearguard against the Allied air forces, the Luftwaffe continued to fight fiercely with its determined pilots and its remarkable fighter aircraft, one of which was the Focke-Wulf Ta 152H. The only unit which used it, the Stabsschwarm JG 301 (JG 301 Staff Formation), won a few kills with this aircraft, one on 14 April 1945.
In the words of Ofw. Reschke:
"Two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field, making low-level passes over Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152 took off at once, piloted by the Oblt. Aufhammer, the Ofw. Sattler and myself. We were immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying in n°3 position, I witnessed the Ofw. Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the Tempest pilots had clearly only just registered our presence. Now began a fight at two against two at the ground-level, which was never to climb above 50 metres. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
"Pulling ever tighter turns, I got closer and closer to one of the Tempests, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta’s capabilities. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. My first burst of fire caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage; its pilot immediately engaged its aircraft in a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent and refused to fire another shot. However, the Tempest, which had already taken hits continued desperately to twist and turn, and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually, inevitably, it stalled. The Tempest’s left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us, about one kilometre of the site from Sattler’s crash. The Tempest pilot, the W/O O.J. Mitchell was buried side by side with the Ofw. Sattler next day in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery with full military honours".
Map: Ground Terrain.
Aircraft:
Luftwaffe
=
2x Ta 152H-1
RAF
=
2x Tempest V
Set Up: Place the Ta 152Hs in hexes 1925 and 1926, wings level, facing NNW, altitude 0.1, and speed 7.0. Place the Tempests in hexes 4018 and 4019, wings level, facing S, altitude 0.1, and speed 7.0.
Game Length: see below.
Special Rules:
The Tempests remove two points of ammunition.
It’s a death duel! The game is won only when one of the two forces loses one of its aircraft. As soon as one of them is destroyed, the other aircraft on that side must break off the action as soon as possible.
Additional Rules: Pilot Quality - The Germans are both veterans-aces. The Britishes are regulars.
Source: Focke-Wulf FW 190 Aces of the Western Front, by J. Weal - Osprey Publishing.
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Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once felling that I was approaching the limit of the Ta 152 capabilities.
In AH the limit is reached when the plane leaves the ground.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Missundertsood your post Kurt, I took it as you were talking about the real deal.
Of course it is different in AH.
As for the Fw 190's though, they were never reported to turn easily with Spitfires, but they were reported to duke it out with them and do it ALOT, specially in the first year the Fw 190 was in combat. This was thanks to alot of other nice feutures of the 190. Of course, to duke it out with a Spit in a 190 (any 190 vs any spit) in AH is suicide, hell even a poorly flown spit V will eat a Dora to lunch unless the Dora keeps it stricly high speed B&Z and starts with alt.
Yes they did the 1st year when the advantage was very much theirs vs the Spit V.
As the war wore on though they were very loathe to come down off their perch to fight low alt Spits
Got to the point Spit squadrons would deliberately fly underneath to try and bait them down, without much success.
Dan has a few anecdotes on this.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I know I'm a little slow, but I just don't get it.
Why not unperk em all. Once the initial thrill wore off, I kinda doubt it's gonna be 262 wars all over.
Oooh, I don't know about that. I think you'd see a lot more 262's buzzing around than is healthy for the game.
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Also, late in the war the Ta152 got many Soviet kills. I believe one pilot (have forgotten his name, but I posted it before) ran into 4 Yaks or Las (can't remember which ) when flying alone and shot down 3 or all 4 of them. I posted the specifics previously but can't recall from memory the details.
The Ta152 was no slouch, especially in turn fights. Hell it's got a MUCH larger wing area than the Dora, and much more power, to boot! It should be able to turn much tighter (and the Dora was said to have turned tighter than all the 190As before it).
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Originally posted by Krusty
... The Ta152 was no slouch, especially in turn fights. Hell it's got a MUCH larger wing area than the Dora ...
... until you dive the Ta.
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Dok, I came across a lower dora heading the opposite way I was. I was expecting it to be higher so I was 12k at least, he was more like 6k. He went past one way so I rolled and split Sed onto his tail, and only throttling back once or twice to prevent over speeding I caught up with him and shot at him at long range with MG151/20s (to make him break)... Well, HE pulled up so hard in fear that he ripped both his wings off and plowed in, and I got the kill...
LOL I still had *my* wings on :) I was going 500+ too
EDIT: I was in a 152, in case ya didn't guess.
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Ta 152 doesn't lose its wings due to speed. It loses them due to G forces.
You can dive it vertical with full throttle from 50k without losing wings, just as you can with almost any other plane (unless it has changed).
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I think that if you pass a certain speed they will rip off, but it's a very high speed.
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Yeah ... just the threshhold for wing rip seems pretty thin for the Ta as I recall.
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Consider this, however... I've never ripped my TA152 wings off. Not even in a 15k dive to the deck. I *HAVE* ripped my 190F8 wings off in a dive from 10k-2k (release bombs and pull up steady but firmly). Go figure.
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My only experience with the 152 has been offline. What I recall was going up to 2500, popping drones, and then diving back to the field to check the dive performace. When I went for a break-turn for landing off came a wing.
If the plane wasn't such a barge I'd probably use it to hunt the bombers that live above 15K.
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It's not so good for that either. Even if you can get to the bombers it sucks when you unload all your 30mm with no damage (and this happens a LOT lately) and then get shot to heck with only a few pings. It seems to lose oil on most first hits.
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Yeah ... hunting bombers probably isn't what you wanna use a perk plane for anyway. Maybe a C-Hog.
Anyway ... the price ain't the problem, as has been stated, its that the performance as modeled ain't worth it.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Anyway ... the price ain't the problem, as has been stated, its that the performance as modeled ain't worth it.
Very well stated.
I appreciate all of the great posts about the 152’s performance in real life.
I think it is generally understood that the Ta152 in WW2 was a monster. A very exceptional airplane that could survive and kill even in the situation where the enemy had overwhelming odds and numbers.
But this isn’t the Ta152 modeled in AH2. Ours is a dog compared to other aircraft in the game. Not only is it not worth a perk price the ENY should be about 10.
If HT changes the FM, then the perk may be justified.
Putting whipped cream on a cow pie doesn’t turn it into a pie, anymore than putting a perk price on the AH2 Ta152 turns it into a perk ride.
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Most people simply wouldn't fly it if it was unperked either.
Hell, I've got more then 7000 fighter perks and I get enough each sortie to go around for both 1 and 2 TA's most of the time.
I can afford to lose Ta152's the way I lose other planes for months and years without actually earning any more perks.
Simple fact is the plane sucks, and it sucks ALOT.
Any plane ranging from 1941 and forward will stand a better chance of surviving and killing in the Arena. A 109F4 is far more potent than that is.
I had some fights in the Ta 152 a long way back, the guy was pissed off because I refused to dance with his "sucky" 1943 ride (P47 D11). Hell, I could hardly outclimb him let alone outturn him.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
In AH the limit is reached when the plane leaves the ground.
:rofl :lol :lol
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Originally posted by Wilbus
In AH the limit is reached when the plane leaves the ground.
:rofl
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Actually, everyone is missing the strengths of the Ta 152.
It was developed late in the war not as a bomber interceptor, nor even as a long-range, high-altitude fighter as has been previously suggested. At this stage of the war, the Nazi's actually had acquired the Ark (as depicted, with great inaccuracies, in Raiders of the Lost Ark) and were able, before losing the Ark to a raid by British special forces, to incorporate some slivers of the contents into a new plane designed for that role -- the Ta 152.
It was named the "Ta" for "The Ark" (using the English words to throw off enemy intelligence agencies, as "Ta" in German stands for completely different things). The slivers of the Ark were able to impart supernatural power only at higher altitudes (closer to the source), so the aircraft had to be made with ability to get to altitude. Once there, and activated by special ritual, it was then able to come back down and outperform -- even at sea level -- any plane in existence. It could outturn Zeros, outrun 262's, and emit divine fire powerful enough to destroy any aircraft in one burst. The cannon on the aircraft were just for show and as backup armament in case the pilot got in a fight before getting to "arcane ritual altitude".
The problem is that none of you have ever taken the Aces High Ta 152 up to 40k, pressed alt-ctrl-shift-a, waited 30 seconds, then pressed alt-ctrl-shift-r (for "Arcane Ritual") to active the "Ark" mode of the Ta 152.
This is why all of your complaining about "correct modelling" is so ironic. You complain about the modelling of the Ta 152 when in fact Aces High is the only game in existence that gets the modelling right.
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I give it a 6 out of 10. While humorous and interesting in nature, it was not brief enough nor succinct, and lost something by the 3rd paragraph.
I found a quote about the Ta152H-1.... Supposedly MW50 and GM1 were scarce for allies after they had confiscated select German aircraft. One Ta152H1 was tested without them, and was found to be "competitive but inferior" to the spitXIX (a recon plane, but it was a late era spit and performed very well) in both climb and speed. The non-WEP 152 AH has modeled will barely break 2000fpm. The non-WEP tested was "competitive but inferior" to 4300fpm for the spitXIX. The quote mentioned that the lacking boost would most likely have improved this standing to match or exceed the spit. So why does AH's 152 [fixed] climb like a fully loaded Ju88 when it ought to climb without wep the way it does with wep?
What is "Competitive, but inferior"? Could be 3500fpm.... Could be 3750fpm... Could be 4000fpm! It's a helluva lot more than "barely 2000fpm".
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Originally posted by Krusty
What is "Competitive, but inferior"? Could be 3500fpm.... Could be 3750fpm... Could be 4000fpm! It's a helluva lot more than "barely 2000fpm".
What spit can't make 2k fpm Krusty? The XVI turns in 3500 all day long and more than that down low.
The 9 will happily turn in numbers only a little lower...
Are you loading 100%, Drop Tank, Gas Grill, 75 pounds of tri-tip steaks, two hookers, a 52 inch big screen TV, 800 pounds of ice and 12 cases of beer?
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Read it again. We're talking about the Ta152. When compared to a spitXIX it was called "Competitive but inferior" -- and that was without WEP.
So AHs model is so far below that it's not funny. There's a big discrepency here, and judging how the 152 currently flies, the error is on HTCs part.
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CC, you made a typo that said the Spit didn't climb... Now I understand... see below...
Originally posted by Krusty
So why does AH's spit climb like a fully loaded Ju88 when it ought to climb without wep the way it does with wep?
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DOH I'm a retard
edit: fixed
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This is why all of your complaining about "correct modelling" is so ironic. You complain about the modelling of the Ta 152 when in fact Aces High is the only game in existence that gets the modelling right. [/B]
I think that's a pretty fair statement. One just doesn't spend much time at 30k+ dogfighting in AH (well, doing anything for that matter). And that's where the 152 is at least competitive. From everything I've read I don't really thing the 152 is modelled poorly in AH.
That said, its pretty tough justifying perks for the plane based on any arena-centric performance numbers.
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1) Its too bad such a unique plane sucks so bad.
2) Its too bad such a unique plane that sucks so bad is perked.
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I once had the patience to drag a spit14 up to 45k or so.
At that height, compared to the spit, it still flew like a down-syndromed hydrocephalic leper on morphine... no contest..
It was actually worse than down low.
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"The best piston engined fighter the germans had" :lol
hmmmm
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Originally posted by Krusty
Read it again. We're talking about the Ta152. When compared to a spitXIX it was called "Competitive but inferior" -- and that was without WEP.
So AHs model is so far below that it's not funny. There's a big discrepency here, and judging how the 152 currently flies, the error is on HTCs part.
Seems strange comparing it to XIX, XIX was a photo recce Spit.
Better match would be a end of war (Mar 45) F.21 . Althoguh the F.21 produced it's best speed at around 23-26k, approx 455mph.
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Originally posted by Hades55
another one view of the story http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/fragments/fot_best.htm
Two of the Best
It was the 14th April 1945 and the war against Germany was rapidly drawing to an end. A young New Zealander from Nelson, Warrant Officer Owen Mitchell, had found that he was centre-stage to the death-throes of a nation.
An excellent cricketer and sensitive musician Mitchell had joined the RNZAF in 1942 directly from University where he had been studying engineering. At 20 years of age the young pilot transferred to England where, after training, he started to accumulate flying hours as an instructor and pilot with various Operational Training Units.
By early 1945 Mitchell had over 700 hours to his credit and was converted onto the latest fighter in the RAF inventory - the Hawker Tempest V. The next step was operational flying and he was delighted, when in early March he found that he had been posted to No. 486 (NZ) Squadron based at Volkel in Holland. The squadron was on the front-line and coming into daily contact with a still very efficient Luftwaffe as well as fierce anti-aircraft fire.
By early April the squadron had moved into Germany itself and was using their base at Hopsten to harass the enemy both in the air and on the ground.
At the German base of Neustadt-Glewe, Oberfeldwebel Sattler was also delighted with his new posting - to the elite Luftwaffe unit called the Stabsschwarm (part of JG301). They were flying the latest German fighter and ultimate development of the Focke Wulf 190 series of aircraft - the Ta-152.
At 6-25pm on the evening of the 14th Mitchell and three others from his squadron took off on an armed reconnaissance of the area. The section attacked a train north of Ludwigslust and then became split up. The leader and his number two ordering Sid Short and Owen Mitchell to make their own ways home.
Short and Mitchell, busily strafing along the rail tracks nearby on their way home, came under the watchful eye of lookouts at Neustadt-Glewe who immediately despatched three Ta-152 to intercept. The pilots - Aufhammer, Sattler and Reschke were on the scene in seconds. Reschke takes up the story;
"Flying in No.3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It seemed impossible for the crash to be from enemy action."
Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece.
In the meantime Reschke and Mitchell were also in mortal combat.
"So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.
Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.
Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us."
The young New Zealander was killed instantly and in a quirk of fate his aircraft crashed less than 500 metres from the German pilot Sattler. The Luftwaffe technicians recovered the two pilots' bodies that evening.
The next day Mitchell and Sattler were buried side by side with full military honours in the Cemetery Neustadt-Glewe. During the funeral Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke stood guard of honour in front of the coffins.
It is fitting to end this story here by allowing these two relatively unknown pilots - each flying arguably the most advanced piston-engined fighter produced by their respective nations to see service in the air war over Western Europe - to represent the many thousands on both sides who had gone before.
Footnote:
In 1947 the body of Owen James Mitchell was reinterred in the British Military Cemetery in Heerstrasse, Berlin. The Missing Research and Enquiry Unit who recovered the body in September 1947 noted;
"We visited the area (now in the Russian Zone) and found Body No. 1. This body was found to be clothed in khaki battledress and had New Zealand marked on the shoulder. The socks were RAF blue and the boots RAF escape type flying boots. On a handkerchief found in the pocket I found the name Pettitt in print letters, about ¼ inch high on the hem."
Owen Mitchell, the New Zealander from Nelson was killed 18 days before the end of hostilities.
heh even Ta-152Hs outran a mustang!
see Wilbus's sig
"The Ta 152 was my life insurance in the last days of the war."
Willi Reschke
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Originally posted by moot
I once had the patience to drag a spit14 up to 45k or so.
At that height, compared to the spit, it still flew like a down-syndromed hydrocephalic leper on morphine... no contest..
It was actually worse than down low.
damn, man! I'd have said a down-syndromed hydrocephalic leper, but a down-syndromed hydrocephalic leper on morphine??
You're a harsh man...
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Kev: According to Guppy the XIX was a super high alt recon version, that flew on well after the war when even jets couldn't reach it up at 48k.
Maybe they wanted a plane similarly suited to high alts to compare it to?
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Originally posted by Brooke
It was named the "Ta" for "The Ark" (using the English words to throw off enemy intelligence agencies, as "Ta" in German stands for completely different things).
UUhhhh the Ta in Ta152 stands for the guy who designed it.
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Originally posted by Larry
UUhhhh the Ta in Ta152 stands for the guy who designed it.
Forgot to turn on your sarcasm o'meter today Larry? :)
Brooke was laying it on kinda thick I thought :)
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I have flown the TA twice
once by accident and once I was board so I upped a TA climbe to 38k and then flew a few sectors in to book land (Rooke Bish = book).
Set off their dar on a dozen or so bases and flew home
I WAS BOARD OK!!!!!!!!!!
:D
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Forgot to turn on your sarcasm o'meter today Larry? :)
Brooke was laying it on kinda thick I thought :)
Guppy you can never tell with the people who are on these boards.
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Well when the Raiders of the Lost Ark is mentioned as historically true, the sarcasm-meter ought to peg "full" :)
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The Ta152 in AH is a good fighter, but nothing perkworthy.
The best thing I ever did in it was, while a Rook, coming across a Bish P-51D setting up to kill a Lancaster. I was at 18,000ft, slightly above the Lanc and a bit below the P-51. As I approached I watched the Lanc twist to avoid the P-51, losing speed and altitude. As the P-51 zoomed back up, I killed the Lanc and then proceeded to easily out pace the P-51. On my return I tangled with an enemy Ta152 without results for either of us, but we lost altitude down to 8,000ft whereupon a Typhoon came after me. I escape the Typoon in a shallow dive and landed on fumes.
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Karnak next time you see me on come wing up with me. I goto 20-25K and go insearch for bombers. With its blistering speed up there and guns its a great buff killer.
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Originally posted by Brooke
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The problem is that none of you have ever taken the Aces High Ta 152 up to 40k, pressed alt-ctrl-shift-a, waited 30 seconds, then pressed alt-ctrl-shift-r (for "Arcane Ritual") to active the "Ark" mode of the Ta 152.
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Air Warrior used to work like that for all planes - hit 40K and the physics wrapped around back to sea level for engine performance - like hitting the afterburner - hehe ...
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I wanna know why the same ammo setup for inboard MG151s has much less ammo (175RPG in the 152 vs 250rpg in the 190A/D/F/G). This can't have been purely for saving weight, could it?? Were they different guns? Was there a smaller ammo cartridge? I don't see how, as the cowl guns were removed already. Dangit if I can't have 500 rounds of 20mm I just don't feel fearsome!
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Air Warrior used to work like that for all planes - hit 40K and the physics wrapped around back to sea level for engine performance - like hitting the afterburner - hehe ...
Oh, man! Wasn't there also a brief time where we were able to climb like crazy if we kept our planes inverted while doing so?
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I miss the time when we used to have the C47 that turned into a 262 above 27.5k. That was a nice bug. If you went level too long you would compress and break youre wings and tail and everything else. YOu had to throtle back actually.
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Originally posted by Brooke
Oh, man! Wasn't there also a brief time where we were able to climb like crazy if we kept our planes inverted while doing so?
Yup ... the "Inverted Stall Climb" bug ... they assumed in a stall that gravity would always be "down" relative to the plane, not to the planet. So if you roll inverted and stall, the plane would fall "up" and accelerate at the rate of gravity upwards. Sure saved on gas.