Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on December 02, 2005, 03:03:08 PM
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What are all the foreign aircraft that the US has used in official service in a combat theater?
I can think of:
French:
Spad VII and XIII
Any Nieuports?
British:
Mosquito PR.IV and PR.XVI
Spitfire Mk V, IX and VIII
and kinda Harrier II
Any others?
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416th NFS used Beaufighter Mk.IVFs and Mk.VIIIs.
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Canberra medium bomber in veitnam
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Apart from the Spads, the AEF used SE5As and Nieuport 28s.
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DHC-4 Caribous were used in Vietnam.
I remember seeing one nasty pic where one got it's tail shot off by friendly artillery fire as it was taking off from a forward field.
I don't know if you count Air America's actions in the SEA as "official" or not but they used many De Havilland Canada's products among other foreign aircraft.
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/special/aviation/AirAmerica/
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Depends on if you count Air America or not :P [EDIT: Wmaker beat me to it]
Don't forget the F-21 for the Navy (Licensed built Mirage I think, used for DACT).
From what I understand the spitVs with stars and bars weren't flown by americans. They just didn't want to get shot down by "us stupid yanks" :P
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"Any Nieuports?"
Some of our pilots (including Rickenbacker) were flying Nieuports prior to being re-equipped with SPADs. I believe they were Nieuport 11's but they may have been a later model. The Nieuports were universally despised as flimsy and unreliable.
J_A_B
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J_A_B I don't think it's was a 11 but more likely a 27 or a 28.
As all Nieuports the upper wing fabric had tendancy to live it's own life :)
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Any Nieuports?"
Some of our pilots (including Rickenbacker) were flying Nieuports prior to being re-equipped with SPADs. I believe they were Nieuport 11's but they may have been a later model. The Nieuports were universally despised as flimsy and unreliable.
J_A_B
Originally, the USAS in WWI used SPAD VII's, Nieuport 28's, Sopwith Camels and SE.5's. SPAD XIII's (which became the standard fighter in USAS service) were in short supply as the French initially had difficulty building enough to equip their own squadrons and the other allied air forces that used them. Only a handful of squadrons flew the SPAD VII, Camels and SE.5's - the majority were equipped with Nieuport 28's until they were replaced by SPAD XIII's.
All the Nieuports were generally very maneuverable air-craft (classic turn-fighters) that suffered from weak wings. However, they were the favourite of many Allied aces and the British thought highly of them and they were literally on the sharp end of the RFC during Bloody April - being on the sharp end against Richthofen's Jasta and flying more sorties than other RFC types, they also took the lion's share of the losses but they were also the planes which scored the lion's share of the kills in the RFC in this period.
The Germans also thought highly of them, enough so that they ordered their aircraft manufacturers to copy them. The Siemens-Schuckert D. I was a direct copy of the Nieuport 11 but with a more powerful engine. However, it was a disappointment since it used a metal frame as opposed to a wooden frame (wood from trees native to Germany were ill-suited for aircraft construction) which weighed it down - by the time the Siemens entered service, it was already obsolete. The "V" strut construction of the early Nieuports was copied in the Albatros D. III and Albatros D. V - this improved the downward visibility of those aircraft compared the parallel strutted D. II but also resulted in weak wings which the planes tended to shed in steep dives (as in the Nieuport).
Basically, it wasn't despised - you just couldn't dive hard with it and expect to survive. They were all classic turn 'n burn fighters. They weren't boom and zoomers like the S.E. 5's and SPAD's.
The only Americans that flew the earlier Nieuports (Nieuport 11 and onwards) with the volunteers who flew in the Escadrille Lafayette and in the RFC. The Escadrille Lafayette later became the 103rd USAS squadron and flew SPAD VII's.
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Krusty,
At least some Spit Vs were flown by the USAAF. I know our first squandron to get over there had trained on P-39s and arrived a couple of weeks before their P-39s did. They were worried about going into combat against the Luftwaffe in them and much to their delight the British handed over a bunch of Spit Vs in reverse Lend-Lease and they never had to fly the P-39 against the Luftwaffe.
Thanks for the WWI data. It is not my strong point, but it was a very interesting time period for military aviation.
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C-23 Sherpa version of the Shorts 330.
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Maybe not combat but:-
DH-4
Avro Anson (license built)
English Electric Canberra (license built?)
BAe Hawk (goshawk)
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Thanks for the info Straffo, Zarkov. My knowledge on the later-model Nieuports is shaky at best.
My comment that the Nieuports were "despised" doesn't mean overall, just in the context of their use by the US in 1918. I've not read an account from a pilot who liked one, and generally the US pilots seemed much happier with their SPAD XIII's. If this is a case of "inaccurate history", by all means correct me (I eat this stuff up).
Overall, the various models of Nieuports definately deserve their place as some of the Allies' best fighters through the middle of the war.
J_A_B
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I know the Coast Guard currently flies 2 helicopters that were built overseas. The HH-65 Dolphin is French built, and the HH-68 Mako is Italian built. The Coast Guard is looking at the CASA-223(I think) twin turbo medium transport built in Spain. I think Lockheed has an agreement with CASA to build the plane here as the C-23 Spartan.
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Krusty
I think the plane the Navy uses at TopGun is the Kifr, built in Isreal.
Jolly
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Thanks for the info Straffo, Zarkov. My knowledge on the later-model Nieuports is shaky at best.
My comment that the Nieuports were "despised" doesn't mean overall, just in the context of their use by the US in 1918. I've not read an account from a pilot who liked one, and generally the US pilots seemed much happier with their SPAD XIII's. If this is a case of "inaccurate history", by all means correct me (I eat this stuff up).
Overall, the various models of Nieuports definately deserve their place as some of the Allies' best fighters through the middle of the war.
J_A_B
J_A_B - you were certainly right about USAS pilots prefering the SPAD over the Nieuport 28 - however, I think the word "despised" is a bit strong.
The Nieuport 28 has the misfortune of being the step-child of the Nieuport line. All the Nieuports up to and including the Nieuport 27 were fairly common in French and British squadrons; the British used the "early" model Nieuports until fairly late in the war and the French always had a few dispersed among their squadrons even after the SPAD VII and SPAD XIII became the standard fighter mainly because some pilots preferred the Nieuport due to its maneuverability - the SPADs, while very fast and durable, also tended to stall like bricks due to their very thin wings (think of them as a WWI-era Mustang or Focke-Wulf). However, the Nieuport 28, wasn't adopted by either the French or the British (although I believe some examples were distributed among French squadrons) and it was pretty much pawned off on the Americans until SPAD XIII's were available to take their place. However, despite their place in history as a stop-gap measure, they were fairly maneuverable (more maneuverable, certainly, than the SPAD...although that isn't saying much) but having the alarming tendency of shedding its wing fabric like all Nieuports.
With that being said, despite their weak wings, the Nieuports were fairly popular fighters, especially among the British. And French ace Nungesser scored the majority of his kills in a Nieuport and continued to fly various models even when posted to SPAD squadrons (although he did eventually switch to the SPAD); however, to be honest, he was "unique" among French aces as the other top aces (Fonck, Guynemer, etc.) all seemed to prefer the SPAD over the Nieuport.
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Originally posted by jollyFE
Krusty
I think the plane the Navy uses at TopGun is the Kifr, built in Isreal.
Jolly
I think you are right..I also think the Kfir is a mirage knock-off built without license... I could be wrong though.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think you are right..I also think the Kfir is a mirage knock-off built without license... I could be wrong though.
Kfir is a Mirage V copy with canards and (I think) an American-made engine. Neat little plane regardless :aok
And the Navy's F-21 is a Kfir C2 if memory serves me correctly.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Depends on if you count Air America or not :P [EDIT: Wmaker beat me to it]
Don't forget the F-21 for the Navy (Licensed built Mirage I think, used for DACT).
From what I understand the spitVs with stars and bars weren't flown by americans. They just didn't want to get shot down by "us stupid yanks" :P
I know a unit in the MTO flew them before they recieved '51s. I dont recall who they were off hand.
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31st FG.
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zarkov it's nice and rare to see someone having a good knowledge on this period of aviation :)
I dream of a WWI oline sim where I can fly like Nungesser (it mean kill a lot and crash a lot )
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Originally posted by straffo
I dream of a WWI oline sim where I can fly like Nungesser (it mean kill a lot and crash a lot )
You also forgot about running wild around town between sorties on your crutches and seducing generals's mistresses and getting drunk and crashing (your car, not your airplane).
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Some info on the Kfir:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/kfir/Kfir.html
Basically it's an evolution of the Mirage III/V series when France put an embargo on delivery of more V's. Built without a license agreement, American J-79 engine (like in the F4 Phantom), canards.
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Originally posted by zarkov
You also forgot about running wild around town between sorties on your crutches and seducing generals's mistresses and getting drunk and crashing (your car, not your airplane).
hehe it will the cherry on the cake :D
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Originally posted by hogenbor
Basically it's an evolution of the Mirage III/V series when France put an embargo on delivery of more V's. Built without a license agreement, American J-79 engine (like in the F4 Phantom), canards.
i have to say, i do love the Israeli "F-U" attitude. they are just like a mini america in a foul mood.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Krusty,
At least some Spit Vs were flown by the USAAF. I know our first squandron to get over there had trained on P-39s and arrived a couple of weeks before their P-39s did. They were worried about going into combat against the Luftwaffe in them and much to their delight the British handed over a bunch of Spit Vs in reverse Lend-Lease and they never had to fly the P-39 against the Luftwaffe.
Thanks for the WWI data. It is not my strong point, but it was a very interesting time period for military aviation.
The 31st FG flew spits before converting to 51bs..I believe they were
Vs.
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(http://www.sci.fi/~fta/harrier_06.jpg)
(http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/Images/bv07/av8b06.jpg)
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Originally posted by Furball
i have to say, i do love the Israeli "F-U" attitude. they are just like a mini america in a foul mood.
You mean the average American drives as if his car is a lethal weapon and everyone on the street has been sleeping with his wife?
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Originally posted by straffo
hehe it will the cherry on the cake :D
I'm not buying any WWI flight simulator unless it allows you to land next to the German two-seater you've shot down, personally capture the crew and then take them to a brasserie in Paris and drink lots of good plonk with them until everyone is good and drunk and then drive off the French military police that come to take the Germans into custody with some drunkenly aimed pistol fire.
THAT is my dream sim.
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DeHavilland DH-4 with the liberty engine as well
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Originally posted by jollyFE
Krusty
I think the plane the Navy uses at TopGun is the Kifr, built in Isreal.
Jolly
IIRC, the Kfir was used for a year or two in the early-mid 80's. It's a knockoff of a Mirage 5.
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Originally posted by zarkov
You mean the average American drives as if his car is a lethal weapon and everyone on the street has been sleeping with his wife?
Only inside the DC loop. ;)
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Gentlemen
I am not the Worlds Autority on this subject BUUT, I have served 17+ years in the RAF & have access to the UK MOD historcal Archives.
Here is some interesting info on the American Spits:
Two American Army Air Corps Fighter Groops were privileged to fly British Spitfires in WWII: the 31st & 52nd.
The 31st takes the Honor of being the firts American unit to fly & Fight over Europe since WWI. While they were briefly based in England, Neither group saw heavy action but that all changed when they were shipped to North Africa.
The 31st formmed in USA late January 1942(Harrison R Thyng became the first 309th Squadron commander) by August 1942 Thyng & the 309th were engaged in fighter sweeps over the English Channel from RAF West HAmpnett equipped with the Spit V( that same month Thyng logged a damage claim on an FW190 the first claim by an American pilot against the Luftwaffe)
That same year saw the 309th shipped to the Mediterranean theater via Gibralter( the 309th had to exit Gibralter fast it had only just been captured from the Germans) they picked up thier Trusty Spit Vs & flew to Tafaraoui Airfield in Algeria( the 31st Group consisted of the 308th & 309th Sqns at this time)
The Americans did not have to wait long for action in fact on arriavl to Tafaraoui Airfield they were attacked by four enemy aircraft( Thyng Red Flight shot down 3 out of 4 of the attackers. the 31st got itts first confirmed kils but lost thier first KIA Joe Byrd killed while trying to land.
I have volumes of info & Picture of the American Spitfire Experience but here are the figure of a superb Fighter Group:
On March 30th 1944 the Group (31st) officially finished flying Spitfires and was in the process of converting to the P51B Mustang.
307th Sqn 65 kills confirmed
308th Sqn 67 kills confirmed
309th Sqn 56 kills confirmed
31st Headquaters Group 6 kills confirmed
Group Total 194 kills confirmed in Spitfires
Spitfires flown MKvs & MK IX
Highest scoring Ace Lt Leland Molland 11 kills
The 31st Fighter Grop produced 39 Aces, 15 from the 309th Sqn, 13 from the 307th Sqn & 11 from the 308th Sqn.
I am currently researching other American flown spitires the 7th Photo Group 8th & 14th Photo Sqns.
These brave men flew unarmed Spitfires on missions over Germany reecording Bomb damaged & looking for new targets for the Bomber groups to hit
Hope you find this interesting I will post more if wanted
Regards
Hopper 16 Grims Reapers
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I'm pretty sure we used used some Airspeed Horsa gliders.
eskimo
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Here’s a good one: What German made aircraft was bought and used by the us military?
eskimo
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Gibraltar had just been captured from the Germans in 1942?
With the exception of the channel islands, I hadn't realized that any bit of British soil had been occupied by the Germans.
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zarkov
You are correct Gibralter was not occupied by the Germans but the Aifield at Tafaraoui Algeria was.
Sorry for the mis representation I was condensing a large ammount of info I lost my place in my summary.
Hopper16
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Originally posted by hopper16
zarkov
You are correct Gibralter was not occupied by the Germans but the Aifield at Tafaraoui Algeria was.
Sorry for the mis representation I was condensing a large ammount of info I lost my place in my summary.
Hopper16
Well, say twenty Hail Marys and don't let it happen again.
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The P-51 is half British, with its Merlin engine.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Here’s a good one: What German made aircraft was bought and used by the us military?
eskimo
No one has a guess?
eskimo
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I have some records of the U.S. Spitfires landing in N-Africa.
They were rather green when they arrived I belive.
BTW the USN or is it the coastguard has French Helicopters - Aerospetale?
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Answer:
(http://www.nlhs.com/images/big_los_angeles_over_dc.jpg)
eskimo
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Hi Karnak:
The USAAF used the Mosquito Mk. 30 nightfighter on the 416th NFS in Italy - at one point they had a detachment in France, with the 425th at Etain IIRC.
Some Canadian B.XXs converted to P.R. work were used as F-8s in the Med. I was not aware of any PR.IVs in American service. Let me know if you've got better info.
Cheers,
Scherf
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Originally posted by Scherf
Hi Karnak:
The USAAF used the Mosquito Mk. 30 nightfighter on the 416th NFS in Italy - at one point they had a detachment in France, with the 425th at Etain IIRC.
Some Canadian B.XXs converted to P.R. work were used as F-8s in the Med. I was not aware of any PR.IVs in American service. Let me know if you've got better info.
Cheers,
Scherf
That was said out of memory. I know that the USAAF wanted to replace all F-5s with F-8s and that a number of PR Mossies were handed over to the USAAF in the UK. Unfortunately Mossie production was never high enough to meet all the demand for Mossies. I understand Curtiss considered ceasing production of P-40s and building Mossies on liscense, but decided against it. A shame really too, the Mossie was useful enough that having an extra four ot five thousand would have been very nice.
EDIT:
The only Mk IV I can find reference to is the initial Mossie turned over to Col. Roosevelt for evaluations. Other than that it looks like the USAAF operated NF.XIIIs, PR.XVIs and NF.30s.