Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: skernsk on December 03, 2005, 01:07:15 PM
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Points
Allied - 1270
Axis - 1150
As any who were there, you are probably surprised by the points total. None more than I. Obviouosly the points system (that I am new to working with) needs some work. So, I am trashing that system and going to revert back to what I used to use when CMing an event.
That system is my judgement.:)
I am scoring frame 1 an AXIS VICTORY. 2 of 3 objectives were completely destroyed, the PT boats got through unscathed. Also, Axis planes scored more kills than the Allied side did.
New Points Total
Axis - 1
Allied - 0
I invite you to comment on the frame and whether or not you enjoyed it. I read from the last FSO some players were unhappy. What I tried to do was create a frame full of action (as low as I could).
Thanks to APDrone for running another flawless frame from the set-up perspective.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Points
Allied - 1270
Axis - 1150
:O :O :O
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Actually I can belive that. Even though the Axis scored more fighter kills we didn't hit any PT boats. These are the boats (I assume) that are getting the british troops out of the country and back to England? We failed to kill any so the Allies won a victory because they saved their troops which is the whole point of the frame. History repeating itself with the Luftwaffe failing to stop the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the European mainland. Those PT boats were worth some points that we didn't get.
Even though I'm flying Axis this go around and the squad I belong to (JG44) had an awsome night, we did fail in our primary mission. To take the win from the Allies, I don't feel is right. They saved those boats because we failed to look for them and find them.
Give the win to the Allies, they earned it. Besides it's the honorable thing to do because the Axis screwed up by not killing the boats.
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As many senerios, in history, one side had an advantage and won. When we recreate and play the senerio, they are scored so that the side with the disadvantage has a point advantage. So the winner will do better then history.
From what I have read, this was a retreat for the Brits (Allied). This should mean the Allies need to get the troops out, not who got them most kills.
I think it matters little who won the points, but it matters who had fun. Fun is what brings us back. I am on the Allied side, and I think we got wooped bad and I don't disagree with that. But it is just wrong to change change the scoring system after the frame! If you feel the axis needs help, then change the scoring sysem before the next frame. But I think a better solution will be to not change the rules and let the Axis change their strategy to get more points.
Gunner
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So if you use the logic that the allies win because none of the PT Boats were sunk that would mean that the allies would not even have to show for the frame. Even if only 1 allied pilot was flying the frame the Axis would lose because the PT's were not sunk, that's just crazy.
I strongly disagree the Axis forces totally destroyed 2 of our objectives I have never seen a frame that said every objective had to be destroyed to secure a victory. The scoring imo is an Axis victory. This was pretty much a one sided frame. All Axis squads worked hard to secure the victory and to say that they do not deserve it because all objectives were not totally destroyed is just wrong.
to all :aok
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I don't like the logic... I don't like the results so here is how I feel. This is not logic :)
Gunner
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My point is this. The difference between who won and who lost is 120 points. A PT boat was worth what? 15 points I think. The Allies launched 28 PT boats last night for a total of 420 points floating out there in the water. The landed those succesfully and therefore got rewarded for it by winning the frame. If the Axis had killed just 10 of those boats we would have won, but we didn't. Sending our stukas on a sucide run cost us also. Even though we dominated with our fighters we lost the frame. While I'm disapointed that we lost the frame, I'm more disapointed that the CM is going to toss the score out the window because he doesn't feel that it acurately reflects what happened last night when in fact it does.
The Allies won plain and simple. If the Axis wants to win the battle then we need to pull our heads out of our third point of contact and plan better.
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If the only thing to do secure a victory was to get PT boats to the port then why would we have 2 other objectives? This was an Axis victory no two ways about it. If there had been some sort of stipulation that said you have to kill all the PT boats or you lose I would have sent every squad to find them and ignored the other objectives but that is not the case. That's like if we were playing football and the score was Axis 50 , Allies 3 the allies would win cause the score was not 50 -0.
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I'm NOT saying the frame was ALL about killing the PT boats. The PT boats are the same as our stukas were. They were points. EVERYTHING in the frame is worth a certain amount of points. We pissed our stukas away so they could get back up in 109's as fast as they could. THAT cost us. Their PT boats made it to their objective and landed, there by saving those points (420) for the Allied side. THAT won it for them. Your Operation Lamb Slaughter worked for you during Operation Husky, but this time it bit us in the butt and we lost. You gave the Allied side the win by sending our stukas in the way you did. How many points did that COST us?? The Axis plan was flawed from the begining. Despite our overwhelming success in the fighters we didn't do enough damage to win.
To change the outcome because some doesn't think it should have turned out the way it did is plain unfair. If the CM's are going to disregard the scores because they feel like it, then whats the use of having the score system at all?? It's dishonest and unfair, especially to the guys that had to drive those PT boats for however long they had to, before they could re-up in fighters. They completed their mission, we failed to stop them, and we SHOULD pay for that.
What I want to know is this. Is this game all about the win??? If this score is going to stand, and no one is going to do the honorable thing by letting the actual scores stand, then I will no longer being participating in FSO.
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I am trying to be objective first, but reading that just p'ed me off so:
Because Allies were forced to put one third of their people in unarmed pt's at the start, it meant that the aerial defenders over Dunkirk were on a hiding to nothing. They died buying time to get the boats across the channel. The scenario was planned that way - and presumably scoring was planned to reflect it.
So let's see, allies start with about a 30% defecit in numbers overall, reduce that by another 30% for naval duties, because they chose to read and obey the RULES.
This means Allies have a fraction of the numbers, inferior aircraft and they can't even choose when and where to engage. How bad was it for allied fighters? Check the stats and see how many "shared" my kill. The four that got me showed simply that the other four shooting at me can't shoot straight. Hell yeah that was fun.
I took it philosophically because the scenario set my job (and that of my squad) to delay the almighty Luftwaffe to buy time to get the troops out. Gee we shot a few down and so got a point or two. Every Ju87 we managed to kill rose again, phoenix like, as a 109 to come back and hit us again. NP, it was part of the RULES. So great were the odds that the poor Luftys were forced to vulch damaged planes landing to get a kill. NP from me because its all in the RULES. Rules which we signed on to after we read the scenario brief. I remember reading a rule about when the Luftwaffe were allowed to attack Dunkirk. NP they got there early. Meant that we were jumped as we arrived. NP, complaining about that would be whining, right?
I came in here to see if I could find something positive to pass along to the squad about what they achieved. Now I have to go back and tell them that FSO has suddenly become a disgraceful sham because a furballing CM doesn't like, doesn't respect and unilaterally decides to change the RULES, simply because he thinks he has the right.
Mate I don't who made you a CM but you don't have that right. They should have explained that to you. I hope somebody takes the time now.
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Originally posted by Dantoo
So let's see, allies start with about a 30% defecit in numbers overall, reduce that by another 30% for naval duties, because they chose to read and obey the RULES.
This means Allies have a fraction of the numbers, inferior aircraft and they can't even choose when and where to engage. How bad was it for allied fighters? Check the stats and see how many "shared" my kill. The four that got me showed simply that the other four shooting at me can't shoot straight. Hell yeah that was fun.
I gotta say, I agree with Dantoo on this.. I think its absurd to claim a AXIS victory when the very scenario put such a huge portion of the Allies in the water with no guns. The AXIS could have and SHOULD have won the scenario by destroying those boats, they were 30 points a piece but instead stalled for a furball.
You can't claim a grand aerial victory when the opponent was tied up in unarmed boats... What a CROCK. If this frame was supposed to be about aerial fighting the put both forces up in fighters.
Oh, all hail the grand axis forces for defeating the allies who were 60% of their actual numbers... Whatever. Hermann Goering was fond of reporting false victories to Hitler... I guess thats what this is.
I came in here to see if I could find something positive to pass along to the squad about what they achieved. Now I have to go back and tell them that FSO has suddenly become a disgraceful sham because a furballing CM doesn't like, doesn't respect and unilaterally decides to change the RULES, simply because he thinks he has the right.
Mate I don't who made you a CM but you don't have that right. They should have explained that to you. I hope somebody takes the time now.
Ok, I don't know if I agree with the fire and tenacity in the second part of this post, but I understand the feeling. Allies flew and sailed the mission exactly as requested and with resounding success... The AXIS FAILED to defeat it's primary objective and is being rewarded for that.
BBQBOB made the argument that the ALLIED could have won by simply failing to up the PT's, but come on BOB, you know full well that Failure to Appear is just as bad as loss, so thats a mute arguement... There were DOZENS upon DOZENS of PT boats out there that the Axis never even took a pot-shot at... We were there, where were you?
I think changing the rules after play has begun is disgraceful and I think the Allies achieved their primary goal (getting the PT's home) and the Axis FAILED at their primary goal of stopping them.
At the end of the day, what you are saying by changing the outcome is that you favor air fights over stratigy... And if thats the case, why the heck did you draw up this FSO in the first place? Allies did the job expertly and deserve credit for it.
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Well, truth be told I figured that if I posted the points as they were I would be roasted alive by the players. Seems I was wrong and trying to fix what I thought was a broken points system was a worse mistake.
Go ahead and post your thoughts, but keep the 'Fuballing CM' stuff to yourself. That does not accurately describe me.
Why did I write this event. There was a FSO we just finished that had several comments that it was not fun, the action was too high .. etc.
so, I thought. What do you want, low fights, more action. So I came up with this concept. My GOAL was for the players to enjoy it and truth be told I never looked at points as a player, just what my mission was and my role on my side.
I care not who wins or loses as long as its fun. Hopefully it was that.
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What makes FSO fun is the strategy involved. The well thought out and executed plan that brings victory to your side. 3 frames to get the score in your sides favor. The scoring system works just fine. The fact that the Axis lost this frame has people pissed off and the fact that you decided to toss the score out the window and give the Axis the victory has even more people pissed off. I flew for the Axis but we failed to achive all our objectives. WE LOST!!!! I'm not afraid to say it. They won fair and square. Their PT boats survived and that saved them 420 points. We pissed our stukas away and that cost us. Declaring the Allies the winner is the right thing to do.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Go ahead and post your thoughts, but keep the 'Fuballing CM' stuff to yourself. That does not accurately describe me.
Why did I write this event. There was a FSO we just finished that had several comments that it was not fun, the action was too high .. etc.
so, I thought. What do you want, low fights, more action. So I came up with this concept. My GOAL was for the players to enjoy it and truth be told I never looked at points as a player, just what my mission was and my role on my side.
I care not who wins or loses as long as its fun. Hopefully it was that.
But we DO care who wins and loses AND we want to have fun.
The mission was fun. I was in a PT... I was expecting to be shot at and I wasn't... I would have had more fun if the Axis had pressed the attack... But it was actually a very fun frame.
You can't just toss away the objective in favor of 'FUN'. Thats bull... Thats an arcade game and I don't think anyone who shows up for FSO is looking for arcade fun.
You laid out the rules... According to the rules allies won.
We flew and sailed the rules you gave us and we are being punished for that... That is not only NOT fun.. But... Will make anyone question your intentions in the future... I don't mean to be harsh, but honestly... Next time am I supposed to just have fun? Or am I supposed to perform my duty according to your mission plan? Because if you're going to just take the victory away I can have a lot more fun sitting with my girlfriend in the other room with a good movie and some wine.
This is only fun when there is a known purpose... And that is what you've taken away...
If you didn't give a darn about the PT's, then why did you waste 30 minutes of my life driving one? If it was all about air-to-air, then why was I in a PT?
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I feel what this really should come down to is the objectives, there were 3 we destroyed 2 in my book we destroyed more then was saved. I am not sure where everyone is getting their information about how much the PT's were worth point wise, but the write up I got said they were worth 10, not 30 or 15 or anything else. So I have to say 2 out of 3 destroyed is an Axis victory. If not then what's the point of having 3 objectives at all? I say we put this one behind us and move foward.
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Actually Bob, the 30 point number is my bad because the orders said 30pt but upon re-reading was 30 PT-Boats... However it does explicitily describe the value of them as 15 points each...
I don't know what the 'value' of the other AXIS targets was... But what I do know is that the hard points numbers say that AXIS lost the frame...
And really, what else is there? Axis could have made up the difference by hitting the PT's, but failed to... Dunkirk was an evacuation mission, if you didn't stop the evacuation then you didn't accomplish the goal. Historically speaking that was the intent.
Total air to air kills really wasn't supposed to be a factor... And if it was then scoring should have been set up to accomplish that.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Well, truth be told I figured that if I posted the points as they were I would be roasted alive by the players.
I don't understand why you thought that second guessing the system would be best.
We were given instructions on how to win the frame and we acheived it. If the axis got a whole boat load of kills, or knocked down their other targets... It doesn't matter.. scoring was weighted onto the PT boats because we were modeling the evacuation... The Axis goal was to stop it, the Allied goal was to evacuate.
In the frame, as in real life the Allies evacuated France successfully and in the scoring rules that you laid out, we won.
Changing that win is dubious.
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who cares about score? fun factor was great
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The multiple task concept and associated scoring system were developed over time to spread out the players and make the CO's think about strategy. As a CO you are required to provide the resources to comply with the tasking you are given. If you don't comply with the requirements you should not be rewarded.
You should not be rewarded because you are depriving some players of a chance at "fun". How much fun did the pt guys have? I can tell you it was no fun at all to be swarmed by dozens of planes that shouldn't even have been where they were. NO I did not have fun. I did however do my best to do so.
I and no doubt more than a few others work hard in scenarios for the simple joy of "immersion". If squad ops was just a 100v100 furball it would be non-immersive and pointless. I wouldn't be there and I wouldn't be upset enough by the parent post here to type out these replies. It's way better than that.
Part of the role of CM's is to be impartial and follow the conventions and rules, both published and unpublished, that structure these events. That structure has the confidence of the great majority of participants. To simply unilaterally tear down what others have built up, and undermine the basis of the best thing that AH offers is vandalism. I presume that there will be a CM's meeting where this will be sorted out. I've put my piece more than a little forcefully and I accept too harshly. I apologise sincerely for personal hurt. You may draw some measure of the upset and hurt I felt from the original post, by the strength of my reply.
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Okay, guys step back a bit here please.
First off the event is about having fun. I think a lot of people did have that even if they felt the numbers were stacked against them. I know my squad did and at the end it was 7 of us versus 30 LW coming after the last destroyer. We still knocked down 5 enemy before we were all put down.
Next skernsk has asked me to review the raw logs. The parser logs are still new and I have always trusted the raw CM logs over the parser logs for making a decision.
I am in the process of doing that and will supply him with results. However, I will say right now that the kills in the raw logs are a lot closer than the parser logs. The reason why is that the RAF killed one of their own and the LW killed 4 of their own.
The allies losted 76 enemy planes to friendly fire and enemy action. The LW lost 62 planes to friendly fire and enemy action. Remember the JU87s and 110s were worthy 15 points and the fighters of both side were worth 10 points.
Even that asside the LW only bagged 14 more planes than the allies. The air to air fighting was very competitive and hotly contested.
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As for objectives remember that you can think of the objectives as 1/3rd, 1/3rd, and 1/3rd. The town is not anywhere near as equal or hard to take down as a the fleet or the PTs.
Which is why skernsk valued the town at 1/3ed the point value of the fleet.
The overall objectives of the event is for the LW to prevent the British army to escaping to england.
The LW wiped out the Royal Navy fleet of 1 CA and 4 destroyers. They did not stop the fleet of smaller ships (unarmed PTs) from completely escaping with no losses. By the posted point system the 1 CA and 4 destoyers (which did have the ability to defend themselves with their auto guns) were worth 300 points. The PTs (who could not defend themselves) were worth 420 points. The town was worth 100 points.
So by skernsk's posted first scoring method the PTs are worth the equivalent of the fleet and the town. Now skernsk and others do have some questions about how much the PTs should really be worth. Plus, how to handle the question if 25 PTs up or 35 PTs up because assigned a fixed point value per boat really gives you a wide margin on how much the PTs are worth in the frame (375 to 525 points) depend on how many the Allied CiC tries to up and how many do up which ends up being a wild card in the frame with unpredictable results.
That is being discussed on how to handle for frame 2.
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Edited: Jumped in before your second post.
Do us a favour look at the whole frame - the orders - who did what and why - and then review the scoring system if you have to. Just parsing the logs for score data won't elaborate why things unfolded as they did.
I would like to see a definitive statement from the CM's, if possible, that retrospective changes to the rules won't happen like this again. Clearly it causes angst. It's not needed. Detracts from some wonderful work by selfless people giving up their time and energy so the rest of us can have a bit of fun.
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Next, everyone watch your tone especially about making comments about Skernsk. I won't tolerate bashing at all.
To answer another question .. if the allies had not up the minimum number of PTs they would have been severely penalized.
Finally, skernsk took a look at the logs did the math and thought there was some mistake and that the logs did not match up with what actually happened. Skernsk has previously been a CM for the FSO team (back in 2000 and 2001) however, we did not have as exacting logs then as we do now and this is his first go at using them and interpreting things by them.
As I said he has asked me to go through also since I have more experience with them and actually parsing out the stastical information.
I still going through them.
I will say from what I am seeing it was very close frame. Air to air was virtual tie do to the fact that the JU87s and 110s are worth more than fighters and the RAF actually fought quite well through the first 2/3rds of the frame. The last third of the frame they were overwhelmed and the LW dominated.
The goals of the event is to simulate the evacuation. The British got a significant part of their troops home via the PTs in the first part of the frame where they were able to hold their own to a large extent.
The LW were able to take out the naval task force in mid to late frame. The town was also wiped out by the LW. However, do realize that in World War II air attacks on ground units could disrupt them hinder them but in most circumstances it did not destroy them. It took combined operations to accomplish that.
During the battle of Normandy Montgomery's drive on Caen tried to use a massive carpet bombing against German troops to clear his way and wipe out the defenders. It did disrupt the germans, it did kills some, it did wreck their heavy equipment but quite a few survived and provided extremely dogged defense that still slowed Montgomery down to a crawl.
This is why the town is not worth near the points of the fleet or the PTs.
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Why, well right now the numbers on the air battle are correct but what was missed is that the LW and RAF shot down some of their own. If you just look at the stats you see that the LW shot down 79 planes. Four of those were there own.
The RAF shot down 59 planes, 1 of those were there own.
Actually losses were 76 allied planes lost (not 79) and 62 LW planes lost (not 59). Basically what this really means is that the air battle was a virtual draw.
By skernsk point system it was 710 ot the allies and 705 to the LW.
The fleet was put down and the town killed.
The issue skernsk and I are talking about are the PTs and their actuall value as an objective. Even still keeping in place his original point system it looks like things were a draw.
If we go with the 28 PTs being worth 420 points. The allies only have 25 points more than the axis. Looking over his notes and reasoning and the problems of having a fixed objective having a wide possible range for a value (375 to 525) .. well this is what he and I think has mucked things up and makes it hard for both sides to plan.
So lets for the sake arguement say the PT flotilla is worth 375 points and instead of each PT being worth 15 points instead it is a percentage. Kill half of the PTs and you got 50% of the 375 and so on.
If the PT flottilla is worth 375 points then the LW are up by 20 points over the RAF.
Once again basically a draw.
But at first glance you go the LW bagged 79 planes versus 59 well it looks like the air battle turned out different than it was.
Remember even in the real war perception can be very different than reality when you do analysis of the facts.
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We are doing a full review. Don't worry about it and it simply boils down to doing some analysis of the events (full AAR), determining what really happened, and then basing the results on that.
Part is the raw parsers logs (which are a pain to work with and can take a bit of getting used to), and reviewing what happened from several sources, etc.
From my perspective (just defending the fleet) it felt to me like the RAF took a beating. I didn't know the PTs got away clean. I also felt like we lost the air war personally .. comes from trying to stop 30 in bound enemy there at the end on the last destroyer with only 7 planes.
It is only after I started digging that I saw that the RAF held up well through over half of the frame (we were competitive) but that finally numbers (as they always do) and decent flying, group tactics, etc., battle field coordinatiojn allowed the LW to dominate the late part of the frame.
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Btw, all this stuff aside .. I had fun. It was intense! Our original fleet defense was a blast.
Our last stand against the horde of luftwobbies in their leather underwear was something I will never forget. Bobbing and weaving all about .. LW planes everywhere and firing. Sling .303s into anybody who crossed my path and there were a lot of those since we were bunched up and most of the LW planes were tnb with us (bet your glad we don't have 4 20mm cannons otherwise quite a few more LW planes would died from snap shots at 100 yards).
It was definitely fun no matter the point scores and results.
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Even being in the PT fleet my squad had fun... We used the time to tell jokes and be stupid basically. We were expecting to get murdered and were surprised when that didn't unfold. We went in there expecting it to be a suicide mission.
Once we were in the air we headed out to the fleet to defend and, Ghost, you're not kidding about that air war over the carrier... That was probably one of the hottest fights in the history of FSO. What I saw was RAF fighters really dominating as far as tactic, but being under-gunned we just couldn't get the knock-downs on the LW. It feels like it takes 3000 rounds of .303 to get a stucka to blow smoke.
Anyhow, I think I mentioned at the beginning of this thread that my squad had a lot of fun, and I like the idea for the mission. But I'm unhappy to find out that Sker wanted to just flip the results like that.
If you're putting in the time on the logs, thats great news. And that makes a lot more sense to me.
With regard to keeping a measured tone with regard to the CM staff, I think I did. I tried to keep my thoughts anchored to the event, and not a slam of the people running it. If anyone felt otherwise, I apologize. I know you all work hard and you do it for free. But that doesn't mean I'm always going to agree with your methods.
In closing, I said last week that I thought a Dunkirk scenario would be fun and interesting and I think that it definitely was. Once you work out the scoring bugs it will be even better.
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This thread demonstrates some of the problems of trying to adapt a historic incident to a "game". While historic events are fun to recreate in a simulation, some liberties must be taken in the interest of balance to make it a winable game for both teams.
Records of aircraft loses from Dunkirk are difficult to reconcile, in part due to different accounting methods, but Luftwaffe aircraft loses during the Dunkirk evacuation were 92 (including 29 Bf 109E, 8 Bf 110C/D, bombers and 10 JU-87s during 3,815 sorties) while RAF loses were 106 (48 Spitfires, 49 Hurricanes and 9 Defiant/Blenheims in 1,764 sorties).* Based on these numbers, the fighter kills on Friday night were balanced in the right direction.
Then, of course, one has to remember that the primary historic measure of success of the real Operation Dynamo was the successful evacuation of so many troops. IMHO the person who designed this event was very clever in adapting PT boats to simulate the evacuation in what is basically an aircraft simulation game. The weighting of points to PT boats, ships, aircraft and towns placed a planning requirement on the COs of the Luftwaffe and RAF teams to consider the importance of the evacuation fleet as well as the RN and made the event more than a gigantic furball.
For this reason I think it would be a mistake to "re-score" frame 1. The COs made their plans based on the known scoring elements and I don't see why the results should be changed. After the next two frames the entire event could be better evaluated to determine if victory conditions and points need to be changed for a future event.
I played on the RAF team and "died" in my Hurricane. I enjoyed the historic aspect of the event and had a lot of fun. I wouldn't mind playing in more squad night events based on early war conditions (the Battle of France, Invasion of Burma, etc.)
- MAG1C
* Page37 "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spick
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The only imbalance it appears is the PT boats. I say this for two reasons. First, a tightly grouped flotilla of 30 PTs with the armament they have in AH doesn't nearly simulte what the troop carriers of that time were actually armed with. Second. if I have to fly 50 miles to Dunkirk then the PT boats ahoud have to drive 20 miles across the channel. My impression over country channel was most PTs were home or near home before an capability to attack them ever reached the coast.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
What makes FSO fun is the strategy involved. The well thought out and executed plan that brings victory to your side. 3 frames to get the score in your sides favor. The scoring system works just fine. The fact that the Axis lost this frame has people pissed off and the fact that you decided to toss the score out the window and give the Axis the victory has even more people pissed off. I flew for the Axis but we failed to achive all our objectives. WE LOST!!!! I'm not afraid to say it. They won fair and square. Their PT boats survived and that saved them 420 points. We pissed our stukas away and that cost us. Declaring the Allies the winner is the right thing to do.
BBQBOB mention to me that there was an argument about the last fso. Now i see what is going on.
first of all this mission wasn't flawed from the beginning. It was simple. i ordered 10 .. yes 10 stukas for the lamb slaughter.... so 10 stukas should have been lost.. the other 20 stukas were to head to the cv and destroy it. . which looks like that part happen.
second.. the 109s and 110 were suppose to go straight to the pt spawn points. now im not sure what happen here. i would like to see film of this. In the end i was expecting 3/3 for the axis and an easy win. Now i know there is usually some misunderstanding in orders... but for the axis not to find the pt boats is rather bothersome. this tells me that certain orders weren't followed or someone made a mistake on the map. either way, i do see that the plans were 66% sucessful.
My main goal was to get the target with the most points.
here was the list of points given to me.
Spitfire Mk I 10points each
Hurricane MK I 10points each
PT Boat 10points each
Allied Fleet 300 points if completely destroyed
Dunkirk (A48) 100 points if completely destroyed
as you can tell i wasnt expecting 30 pt boats. i was expecting more like 10 or 15 at most.
In the end, its up to the frame creator to make the decision on victory. if we dont deserve the victory, that is fine with me. I just hope that FSO doesn't become all "political" and thoughtless like MA has become.
thanks to all those axis whom participated..
navajo24
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First off can the Axis CiC send me his battle plans.
Skernsk has already sent me the orders he sent the LW side. There might be a possible type going on. The RAF objectives said 15 points for every PT that survived. If the LW said 10 points for every PT killed probably a typo creeped in and that 5 point difference does really effect people plans.
28 pts at 10 pts is 280
28 pts at 15 pts is 420
Also the RAF said we had to up 25 and could up to 35.
PT boats were specifically told they could not use any of there guns in RAF objectives. Meaning their only defense was to use evasive action, or scatter and hope you didn't find them all, or hop that the RAF fighters could beat the LW back.
I am reviewing all with Skernsk.
Why the LW didn't find the PTs, well I am not sure. Those involved email me personally so I can try to reconstruct what went on.
dgideon@dgideon.org
As for points, guys I have done analsysis of the raw data of the CM logs for a long time. I have done the raw analysis in the past for 68K0, Daddog and other admin CMs because I am familiar of how to get the data out and format it. It still takes me about 1 to 2 hours to pull it out, format it into Excel and then do analysis.
This was skernsk first attempt at doing this with the points. Things a bit skewed too him so he fell back on the way it was done before since what he got from the logs did not make sense based on actual battle results .. i.e. the RAF winning being up 120 points.
I will be helping him get the raw data in the next frames.
Also note he did not say he was giving the LW a major victory. He was just saying the LW took the frame.
Right now it looks like it was a draw. But either the LW or the RAF took the frame by about 20-25 points (a draw in my book).
If a typo did slip in (it happens and I have done it myself, as you all know) then that could explain why their is drastically different perspective between the LW and the RAF. We will look into that and get back to you.
If there was a typo probably what we will do is split the difference between 10 and 15 and say the PTs are worth 13 points each so 364points instead of 420 at 15 points each.
Meaning the Allied total should be 1074 and hte Axis should be 1105. A 31 point difference to the Axis. Again a draw although you can say the LW took it by a very few points.
Will get back to you on all of this.
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Let me see if I have this straight. You ordered 10 stukas to basically go get themselves killed. That was 150 points lost right off the bat. We lost by 120 points. That is what I ment when I said we GAVE the Allies the win. Those planes should have been escorted . I just can't agree with those kinds of tactics.
Whatever. I didn't write the orders so who am I to complain right?? The main thing thats going on with this thread is the total disregard of the rules and switching the outcome based on 1 persons opinion.
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No what is going on is that skernsk wrote the event. He watched the event and got data and input that contradict what the data he was getting from his attempt to pull information out of the raw logs.
Based on what he observed and other CMs observed it indicated an Axis victory. His imperfect parsing of the raw logs said the Allies won by 120.
His instincts were actually right I have done an analysis of the logs and the RAF by no means scored 120 more points than the LW. Based on the scoring information given to the RAF they took the frame by 25 points.
Now I have just got the axis objective orders and there is indeed a type in them.
The LW were told the PTs were worth 10 points, the RAF were told the PTs were worth 15 points.
So skernsk instincts were correct based on the info given to the LW. The LW did take the frame but only be the skin of there teeth and statistically it really is a draw. The point difference (we are going to split the points and say they are 13 points to be fair to both sides since can't go back and correct the typo after the battle is fought, etc.) is really very, very, very minor.
Now while his instincts were correct what he did wrong was he wanted to get the results out before monday. He should have done some in depth analysis or asked others to review the information to bear out whether his gut instincts were correct or not since in the past we didn't rely as much on the raw parser logs.
My mistake was not automatically saying run past your analysis past me first so I can offer a second peer review of them. If I had I would have caught the discrepancies and help him get to actual results with the hard data to support them.
So to an extent this is my fault for not following up with a new CM. His fault is being new at doing FSO based on the raw CM logs. Writing, scoring and administring an FSO is a very time consuming task. As I said it takes me about 2 hours to go through the logs, double check, do the anaylsis and figure out what really happened and what the results were. Ad to this writing up the objectives, providing maps, etc. and actually each FSO frame eats up easily 8 hours for a CM.
So chalk all this angst down to a new initiates having to deal with some major raw data entry analysis and might fault of not double checking like I have done with other new CMs.
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This gonin to be my second shot at CIC for the FSO, axis this time.
And again there is a chitstorm(looks up "why me")
anyhooo don't worry about the PT's in frame 2. Just got hold of Field Marshall Flipper, he and his band of trained porpoises will enter the Channel from the North and attach explosives to there hulls. And he was more than happy to do this, as he has a beef with the allies killin family members in Tuna nets.
So sshhhhhh don't let the CM's or the allied know
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Aha, seems I got an intelligence report here (as the Allied CiC for frame 2) about Luftwobbie dolphins.
Hmm, we better counter them with our trained scottish seals and who have been trained to balance balls filled with Nitro on their noses to flip at those Teutonic purpoises!
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Aha, seems I got an intelligence report here (as the Allied CiC for frame 2) about Luftwobbie dolphins.
Hmm, we better counter them with our trained scottish seals and who have been trained to balance balls filled with Nitro on their noses to flip at those Teutonic purpoises!
HAH...... your first mistake and last..... balls of nitro only work on surface,
ya should of armed the C4 Cod.....buhhahahah victory is ours
Sea Marshall Flipper is going NOS nape of sea
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Let me see if I have this straight. You ordered 10 stukas to basically go get themselves killed. That was 150 points lost right off the bat. We lost by 120 points. That is what I ment when I said we GAVE the Allies the win. Those planes should have been escorted . I just can't agree with those kinds of tactics.
Whatever. I didn't write the orders so who am I to complain right?? The main thing thats going on with this thread is the total disregard of the rules and switching the outcome based on 1 persons opinion.
look at the orders.. the 10 stukas were escorted... i dont go giving away lambs without a fight... the stukas were suppose to hit the town first.. if they werent able too they were suppose to draw down the cap. lead them away from the target making it easier for the main forces to hit the targets... as i can tell from the logs some stukas hit the town... i wouldnt mind losing 100 points to get 300 points.... i know when risk should be taken... if you feel you can do better. by all means.. do better.. otherwise..... hmm nevermind..
navajo24
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So to an extent this is my fault for not following up with a new CM. His fault is being new at doing FSO based on the raw CM logs.
Actually is it my fault for letting Ghostdancer and Skernsk on the Squad Ops team while I tried to retire. ;)
Skernsk and I talked at length on the phone about this, (after his post). LOL As Ghostdancer pointed out Skernsk was a CM a few years ago. At that time it would be far to say that the TOD, (now Squad Operations) was more “objective based”. Consequently his slant favors the objective view.
Personally when I have scored Squad Ops over the years if the points were within or close to 100 points I called it a draw. If you are one to score by points then you could call it a draw or marginal Allied win. If you are to base a win or loss by objectives then you could call it an Axis victory. Knowing the competitive spirits we have in here this thread does not surprise me, and I saw it coming a mile off. Even told skernsk that. ;) I have always used points because you can’t argue with points. Everything has a value, aircraft, ground vehicles, boats, and field objects if they are assigned targets. Also objectives have a base value usually 100 to 300 points depending on what it is. You simply add them up and post the score. The one thing the Admin CM’s for Squad Ops do differently are how to score objectives. Some (like myself) like to keep things simple and assign a basic point value. If 50% of the target was destroyed then each side gets 50% of the value. Others prefer to count every object for X amount of points. To each his own.
The bottom line is don’t let posted results be they objective or subjective taint how much fun you had. If you did not have fun in the first place then I can’t do much about that except to broadcast the location of Skernsk in Frame 2 so everyone can kill him.
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First let me say that was 1 NASTY Furball at 48!!! I was trying to get CAf back up to a 'Safe" Alt Whenwe ran smack dab into the middle of the of the 87's and their escort. Everything else is a blur.
As for the PT boat thing I expected to run smack dab into the middle of them enrte to 48, but this never happened. I then expected them to be at 106 waiting for them there. Nope.
Well with the score's this close look's like Frame 3 could be the ball buster!
Yep..a good bottle of Scotch is on order for that night!
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First of all, let me apologize to the Allies for not being able to be present as the CIC. I worked my tail off on those orders and the planning, and I wanted very much to be there for the victory. Unfortunately an RL emergency came up out of the state and I had to go.
As for how things worked out. We were given our orders. Based on the numbers presented, we knew that all we had to do was land as many pt's as possible. We had planned for between 28 and 32. Apperently we got all 28. to the ~Fate~ and the 68th, and i believe the 325th for volunteering to play sitting ducks (Volunteered is what the FATE did!) Basically wasting the first 20 minutes of the frame without any option to return fire. Thank you to you all. Well done. (apparently there was a typo. We had 15pts per pt listed in ours) As such, I intentionally put my maximum possible numbers in PT's taking the gamble that we would get there before you got through our fighter screen. If we did, all we had to do is tie in air to air to win. 28X 15=420pts. 300+100 for the town and TASK FORCE = 400. (add 15 more because I would have ALSO landed a pt boat)
That said, I was also ORDERED to provide fighter cover for both the task force, in 12,9 sector AND cap for the dinky town. As such I put 25+ fighters over the task force, no more than 16 each over the pts and the town respectively.
(I understand the point typo) Still, you chose to commit your forces, in larger numbers to the town and task force, just as I expected. You STILL would be throwing 280 points (as opposed to 420 based on typo) in the trash for not ignoring the town and attacking the Task FORCE and pt's equally. Had you chosen to do that, we COULD NOT HAVE WON. PERIOD. You would have drastically outnumbered the PT fighter screen. I put my very best fighter squadrons there(statistically) but there were no more than 15 or 20. They were told to do whatever it took to save the PT's. No matter what, they weren't leaving the evac armada.
At the same time, I knew how important the TASK GROUP was. I put my largest and best Marine Squadron over the fleet. VMF101. You had an unwinnable task, and apparently did a great job. The fleet was never saveable, but killing the most aircraft possible was your only real mission.
As for the town, and had I been able to command Friday evening, I would have vectored EVERY SINGLE SECOND LIFE PT PILOT to defend the fleet! All of em. I would have given you the town on a platter. I don't know what actually happened, but my orders were to split the pt squads in half between the two Axis objectives. The entire 68th had originally been ordered to cap A48 town trather than defend the fleet. They would have been sent to the fleet. The AK's were to defend the fleet in support of the Nightmares. I don't know what actually happened, but had we done it that way, it wouldn't even have been close.
But alas, I couldn't be there so it's hindsight.
In the end, it sounds as if everyone had a great time. Fighting low and furious is great. It's less great when the entire RAF is shootin .303 rounds against cannons, but we aren't complaining seeing as we killed so many cannon toting NAZI's in our inferior hardware. At the end of the day, we did better with less.
As for the typo, EVEN with the typo, all you Axis guys had to do is kill the PT's and either take down the town, or the CV group, but not both,and you WIN! You would have had 380 in the bag, or you would have had 580 in the bag, depending on your choices. But the one choice you HAD TO MAKE, was to come after my defenseless PT boats. You didn't and it cost you the frame. (BTW I begged skernsk to let me arm my pt boats and he said no.)
So, finaly, to denie the Allies of a well planned, and obviously very well fought victory, after the fact, is wrong. The Axis, regardless of a 5 point typo, had EVERY opportunity to kill us in the air and ESPECIALLY the water, and they chose not too. That was a failure of strategic planning. Nothing more. It takes 18:42 minutes to get a PT from the spawn points to the port IF the pilots are NOT half in the bag drunk...(yeah right on a Friday night ;)) That's almost half the Allied force unable to up a fighter for almost 20 minutes! What if they were already over the task force and town? thats 28 MORE pilots!
I went to the map as often as possible and flew all of the routes, timed all of the trips, and calculated all of the fuel, leading up to creating my orders. We SHOULD have won, based on the plan. I submit that the Allies worked within the rules given and accomplished its mission. The score says the Allies won...because they DID!
skernsk
Axis
Allies
edit BTW just read the logs...Axis 120 pilots, Allies 91. With this score there should be no debate that the allies won!
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All came down to us not finding the PT boats. My squad was tasked with their destruction but we never saw 'em even after overflying both spawn points and then staking out the approaches to the ports. We took an almost direct route there too. Split up and looked all over. Nothing.
My guys got mixed up with some hurris at one point. JJ and I avoided the fight and continued to look for them. No dice. Upon further review JJ found em in his film. "Missed it by that much" as our old friend Maxwell Smart would say. Allies for doing a great job of completing one of your missions 100%. Can't beat that with a stick.
Heck I had a good time. Was just glad I was able to spend the whole frame without a disco. That hasn't happened in a while.
Drano
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Ahem, guys step back a bit. What skernsk originally said was Axis Victory. He did not say major, minor, inconsequential, or sheep running in the streets victory.
Going by the original point system and the raw logs the RAF scored 25 more points than the LW.
Now there is a discrepancy where the RAF were told 15 points per PT and the LW 10 PTs per PT.
If you go with the PT system the LW was told (10 PTs) then the LW took the frame by 115 points.
This is where the issue really resolves. Not whether the battle plan of the LW covered or adequately tasked to hit the PTs are not. They did from what I have been told but they also assumed based on information provided to them that the PTs were not of the same value as say the Royal Navy fleet but instead were somewhere in importance between the fleet and town.
Their plans were based on that information.
The RAF were provided with information that basically pointed to the fact that the PTs were of a greater importance than the Royal Navy Fleet and the town combined. They built their plans accordingly.
Both were good plans based on strategic information provided and interpretation of this information.
Putting aside the disconnect of the point value of hte PTs we all have to realize that a battle plan is created but no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. A battle changes, things happen outside of people's control, did the LW mean to not find the PTs? No they did not .. but a battle is a wild unpredictable thing and those assigned to find and kill the PTs just missed them. It happens.
Skernsk and I will hammer out how to handle the PT points issue.
The battle was well fought by both sides and any of the three points schemes I have indicated used with the raw logs show that it was tie or damn close to a tie.
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Originally posted by 68Hall
First of all, let me apologize to the Allies for not being able to be present as the CIC. I worked my tail off on those orders and the planning, and I wanted very much to be there for the victory. Unfortunately an RL emergency came up out of the state and I had to go.
As for how things worked out. We were given our orders. Based on the numbers presented, we knew that all we had to do was land as many pt's as possible. We had planned for between 28 and 32. Apperently we got all 28. to the ~Fate~ and the 68th, and i believe the 325th for volunteering to play sitting ducks (Volunteered is what the FATE did!) Basically wasting the first 20 minutes of the frame without any option to return fire. Thank you to you all. Well done. (apparently there was a typo. We had 15pts per pt listed in ours) As such, I intentionally put my maximum possible numbers in PT's taking the gamble that we would get there before you got through our fighter screen. If we did, all we had to do is tie in air to air to win. 28X 15=420pts. 300+100 for the town and TASK FORCE = 400. (add 15 more because I would have ALSO landed a pt boat)
That said, I was also ORDERED to provide fighter cover for both the task force, in 12,9 sector AND cap for the dinky town. As such I put 25+ fighters over the task force, no more than 16 each over the pts and the town respectively.
(I understand the point typo) Still, you chose to commit your forces, in larger numbers to the town and task force, just as I expected. You STILL would be throwing 280 points (as opposed to 420 based on typo) in the trash for not ignoring the town and attacking the Task FORCE and pt's equally. Had you chosen to do that, we COULD NOT HAVE WON. PERIOD. You would have drastically outnumbered the PT fighter screen. I put my very best fighter squadrons there(statistically) but there were no more than 15 or 20. They were told to do whatever it took to save the PT's. No matter what, they weren't leaving the evac armada.
At the same time, I knew how important the TASK GROUP was. I put my largest and best Marine Squadron over the fleet. VMF101. You had an unwinnable task, and apparently did a great job. The fleet was never saveable, but killing the most aircraft possible was your only real mission.
As for the town, and had I been able to command Friday evening, I would have vectored EVERY SINGLE SECOND LIFE PT PILOT to defend the fleet! All of em. I would have given you the town on a platter. I don't know what actually happened, but my orders were to split the pt squads in half between the two Axis objectives. The entire 68th had originally been ordered to cap A48 town trather than defend the fleet. They would have been sent to the fleet. The AK's were to defend the fleet in support of the Nightmares. I don't know what actually happened, but had we done it that way, it wouldn't even have been close.
But alas, I couldn't be there so it's hindsight.
In the end, it sounds as if everyone had a great time. Fighting low and furious is great. It's less great when the entire RAF is shootin .303 rounds against cannons, but we aren't complaining seeing as we killed so many cannon toting NAZI's in our inferior hardware. At the end of the day, we did better with less.
As for the typo, EVEN with the typo, all you Axis guys had to do is kill the PT's and either take down the town, or the CV group, but not both,and you WIN! You would have had 380 in the bag, or you would have had 580 in the bag, depending on your choices. But the one choice you HAD TO MAKE, was to come after my defenseless PT boats. You didn't and it cost you the frame. (BTW I begged skernsk to let me arm my pt boats and he said no.)
So, finaly, to denie the Allies of a well planned, and obviously very well fought victory, after the fact, is wrong. The Axis, regardless of a 5 point typo, had EVERY opportunity to kill us in the air and ESPECIALLY the water, and they chose not too. That was a failure of strategic planning. Nothing more. It takes 18:42 minutes to get a PT from the spawn points to the port IF the pilots are NOT half in the bag drunk...(yeah right on a Friday night ;)) That's almost half the Allied force unable to up a fighter for almost 20 minutes! What if they were already over the task force and town? thats 28 MORE pilots!
I went to the map as often as possible and flew all of the routes, timed all of the trips, and calculated all of the fuel, leading up to creating my orders. We SHOULD have won, based on the plan. I submit that the Allies worked within the rules given and accomplished its mission. The score says the Allies won...because they DID!
skernsk
Axis
Allies
edit BTW just read the logs...Axis 120 pilots, Allies 91. With this score there should be no debate that the allies won!
very interesting.. considering i did commit 3 squads to do a bee line straight for the pt spawn pts and to 106. i even had my squad going wep looking for the pt boats. they said they couldnt find anything all the way to england. their mission for operation toothless anchor (OP TA) was to find the pt boats and drag the fight to england. uknighted was in 109s going NOE to find the boats.. report their location and if their was fighter cover.. to take the fight to england if possible.. a group of 110s and another group of 109s should have taken the boats out but...........
BUT. the boats couldnt be found. i dont know why.. i'm requesting film from my squad but i believe no one filmed...:furious ..
i have a feeling that the 20 mins it took the pts to get across the channel was too short... i hope im wrong.. but please someone tell me that we just couldnt see them.. tell me that the planes flew to high... or something. i dont want to believe that the axis didnt have enough time to find the pt boats..
edit: active bases... i believe that is another factor to consider.. maybe the active base list was wrong for me.. i had the OP TA leave a field that was to far..?? im going to go find my active base list again.. and see..
navajo24
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Originally posted by Drano
All came down to us not finding the PT boats. My squad was tasked with their destruction but we never saw 'em even after overflying both spawn points and then staking out the approaches to the ports. We took an almost direct route there too. Split up and looked all over. Nothing.
My guys got mixed up with some hurris at one point. JJ and I avoided the fight and continued to look for them. No dice. Upon further review JJ found em in his film. "Missed it by that much" as our old friend Maxwell Smart would say. Allies for doing a great job of completing one of your missions 100%. Can't beat that with a stick.
Heck I had a good time. Was just glad I was able to spend the whole frame without a disco. That hasn't happened in a while.
Drano
DRANO says the film showed them. They were intentionally split into two groups.
Also I ran the PT spawns three times each. The fastest crossing time I got was literally 18:42. I'm not sure if A60 would have gotten you there fast enough or not? I do think A45would. That said, the town wasn't allowed to be hit until T+20 minutes, and it apparently was. Is it possible some of your squads delayed themselves en route?
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Originally posted by 68Hall
DRANO says the film showed them. They were intentionally split into two groups.
Also I ran the PT spawns three times each. The fastest crossing time I got was literally 18:42. I'm not sure if A60 would have gotten you there fast enough or not? I do think A45would. That said, the town wasn't allowed to be hit until T+20 minutes, and it apparently was. Is it possible some of your squads delayed themselves en route?
ok here are mine orders..
http://www.uknightedstates.net/uknighted/uploads/Axis%20Command%20Orders%20for%20frame1%20112905.doc
here is the information sent to me ..
http://www.uknightedstates.net/uknighted/uploads/Frame1Ordersluft.doc
edit: here is the map i based my active bases on ..
http://www.uknightedstates.net/uknighted/uploads/map.jpg
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Wow, why didn't you guys launch from A60 or A49. A61 is pretty far away. I'll post the orders I gave my guys, and the ones i got, If I still have them.
my orders to allies:
Date: 2 December 2005
To: Squadron Commanders, Allied Expeditionary Forces/ Dunkirk/ RAF/Channel Defense Fleet Command
From: Commander in Chief
TOP SECRET TOP SECRET TOP SECRET TOP SECRET TOP SECRET TOP SECRET
CODE WORD CLEARANCE ONLY
OPERATION DYNAMO
Commanders, below you will find the maps and general intel of our current and desperate situation. I have enclosed the orders presented to my by the Prime Minister, and His Majesty King Edward. I cannot express to you enough that the very survival of Britannia, and the struggle against fascist domination of the entire World rests on you and our brave lads.
You will first find a complete map enclosed, including our forward bases, and the bases of our evacuation armadas. Additionally you will find scoring information vital to our victory.
I shall state our mission simply.
1. We must evacuate all troops from Dunkirk using as many as 35 PT Boats. Half will spawn from A46, and half will spawn from A45. They must reach P106 unharmed to be successful. Each PT boat is worth 15 points a piece. No PT boat is permitted to fire any weapons. Any Axis aircraft shot down by a boat will count against us. PT boat crews all get a second life in fighters.
2. We must defend the PT Boats with fighter cover.
3. We must defend Task Force Urgent Rescue. It is worth 300 points.
4. We must defend the town only, at A48. It is worth 100 points.
5. We must shoot down as many enemy aircraft as possible, BUT not at the risk of the PT Boats, Task Force Urgent Rescue, nor of the Town.
6. All Axis Bf110’s and Ju87’s are worth 15 points. Me109’s are worth 10. The higher valued aircraft should be targeted first when given a choice.
7. Our aircraft are only worth 10 points to Axis. Our PT Boats are worth 15.
8. If all boats arrive safely, and the fleet is not entirely sunk, we will win. 30 PT Boats = 450 points.
SPECIFIC SQUAD ASSIGNMENTS
68TH Lightning Lancers Launch PT Boats from A48. Northwest Spawn to YELLOW areas on map. Second life in Hurricane I
325th Checkertails Launch PT Boats from A46. Hanger Spawn to YELLOW areas on map. Second life in Spitfire I
~Fate~ Launch PT Boats from A46. Hanger Spawn to YELLOW areas on map. Second life in Spitfire I
MAW Launch Spitfire I from A15. Fly directly to the center of PT Spawns. Defend boats at all costs. 1 LIFE
Arabian Knights Launch Spitfire I from A15. Fly directly to A48 PT spawn. Defend boats at all costs. 1 LIFE
56th Fighter Group Launch Spitfire I from A15. Fly directly to A46 PT spawn. Defend boats at all costs. 1 LIFE
VMF 101 Nightmares Launch Hurricane I from A16. Fly directly to 12, 9 keypad 7. Defend the Task Force Urgent Rescue. 1 LIFE
Cactus Air Force Launch Hurricane I from A15. Fly directly to A48 Town. Defend it. Base is NOT a target. Town only. 1 LIFE
9GIAP VVS RKKA Launch Hurricane I from A15. Fly directly to A48 Town. Defend it. Base is NOT a target. Town only. 1 LIFE
327th Steel Talons Launch Hurricane I from A15. Fly directly to A48 Town. Defend it. Base is NOT a target. Town only. 1 LIFE
All hands may rearm and re-launch from any friendly base including A46 and A48.
PT Boats take 19 minutes from A48 spawn to P106. Boats MUST BE STOPPED INSIDE THE ACTUAL PORT.
Once PT Boats are safe ~Fate~ and the Checkertails will up together, from A16, to defend the fleet. Coordinate with VMF101 CO.
Once PT Boats are safe, the 68th will re-launch, from A15, to defend town at A48.
All pilots defending PT Boats will rearm and be reassigned based on the needs of the mission.
The Axis cannot launch for A48 Town until T+20 minutes.
It takes 10 minutes for Hurricanes (FULL FUEL TANKS) to get to A48 from A15 without climbing. Climb once you are on station. They have to come down to attack. Expect 110’s.
The Axis can launch against the Task Force immediately. It will take 10 minutes for Hurricanes (FULL FUEL TANKS) to reach Task Force from A16 without climbing. Again, they have to come down to attack the Fleet. Climb once on station. Expect Stuka’s and 109’s.
Additional notes: Both Spitfire I’s and Hurricane I’s are carbureted. A forward pushover, negative G, dive will starve the engine of fuel.
I STRONGLY RECOMMEND A SPLIT S MANUVER WHEN FORCED INTO AN EMERGENCY DIVE!
We can out turn all Axis aircraft. Get the enemy to fight us where we have the advantage…LOW and SLOW.
COMMAND CHANNEL 150
ALL CO’S PLEASE BE IN UNIFORM BY 2230.
MISSION LAUNCH TIME 2300.
Good luck. God Speed, and Happy Hunting!
68Hall, Commanding
SEMPER FI!
BELOW ARE GENERAL ORDERS AND MAPS
Allied Orders
Frame 1- 68Hall
The German Blitz has rolled through Belgium and most of France. Our troops are trapped at Dunkirk and are desperately trying to evacuate. The Royal Navy is in the middle of the largest rescue mission ever attempted. Your orders are to provide cover for the Royal Navy vessels and to fly CAP over Dunkirk itself. The Luftwaffe has been attacking any and all vessels in the area with deadly Ju87 Stuka’s. Bf109 and Bf110 fighters are also present in large numbers.
All BEF fighters have been pulled off the continent and brought back to England. The last squadrons were rolling off the runways as the German tanks were advancing on the airfields. The only airfields in France not under German control are at Dunkirk and Calais. As commander of 11 group, you have been placed in charge of the air operations for this rescue. It is critical that you succeed in your mission, the men on the ground in France are irreplaceable, without them, we cannot win this war.
Objectives
1. The Royal Navy is attempting a daring crossing of the Dover straits from Calais (A46) and Dunkirk (A48). PT Boats (unarmed) are headed to the port of Dover (P106). Fly CAP over these vessels and get them back safe. The attached map shows you the position of the vessels at the start of the frame. Have between 25 and 35 PT boats spawn at A46 and at A48. By clicking the correct start button in the tower they will begin within either circle. Have them run the gauntlet.
2. Fly CAP over the fleet located at 12.9.4. The fleet must remain within the red highlighted box at all times. (See notes at bottom for restrictions on fleet movement).
3. Fly CAP over Dunkirk. We expect the Luftwaffe to attack the town sometime after T+20. Ensure that you have some fighters flying CAP before T+20.
Available aircraft for your mission are Hurricane I’s and Spitfire Mk I’s. These have been transferred to 11 Group for you to use. Below you have a breakdown of your aircraft and active airfields for this operation.
Aircraft Type Fields Available
Spit Mk I (40%) A14, A15
Hurricane Mk I (60%) A14, A15, A16
PT Boat A46, A48 (30 boats, second life in aircraft of CO’s choice)
** RAF start strength should be 60% Hurricanes. Second lifers can be 50% Hurricanes, 50% Spitfires.
** Arrange your squads so that between 25 and 35 PT Boats are starting at the beginning of frame.
STRAT MAP
Axis Aircraft Intel
Bf109’s are at all bases
Bf110’s are at all bases except A44 and A36
Stuka’s are at all bases
END ORDERS
** Axis forces cannot attack Dunkirk untilT+20 allowing you to get some sort of fighter cover over Dunkirk. Your planes may land and refuel at either A46 or A48.
** PT boats CANNOT use any weapons. Any PT boat kills will result in points taken away from Allies. Once dead or safely at P106 the player can despawn PT boat and re-up in a Spitfire or Hurricane as per your orders. The PT-Boats must be within the confines of the port to be considered a safe trip.
** Try to have 25-35 PT boats available at frame start. Split them up between the two bases (A46 and A48). The second life for players in PT boats will be in planes. No more than 50% can go into Spitfires from the PT boats.
** You must keep the fleet headed in a NNE direction, as close to the line drawn on the strat map. You may maneuver the fleet when it is flashing and under attack. Once the attack is over, return to NNE heading.
** A45 is Axis, but no planes can spawn from there. RTB’s and rearms are allowed at A45 by Axis players.
Plane type Point Value
Bf109 10 points each
Bf110 15 points each
Stuka 15 points each
Safe landing of
PT Boat 15 points each
Although you are on the defensive you have the possibility to score more points than the Axis side. Obviously your points will come mainly from getting PT boats to port safely and shooting down German planes. It will be a challenge to win the frame, but more importantly, it should be a fun furious fight!
my maps look the same. The only difference was in the pt point typo. Itlooks tome like both sides did a couple things real well, and missed a few things really well.
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Damn, I missed the part about allowing the fleet to take evasives when it was under attack. We left it on a straight course when the JU87s came in. Granted diving boming a fleet on evasives is not that hard .. but it could have made it a little harder for those JU87s that screamed in.
::kicks self in the butt for not reading everything thoroughly::
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Well..
I have a personal interest in Dunkirk! because my Dad was a kid on the south coast of England during the evacuation. Some of the Fishermen from his town lost their lives..
That is my personal motivation for being part of this, and PT's to shore SHOULD be scored the highest.
While the 327th did an exceptional job :aok following orders, it's the PT's to shore that should have the most scoring potential, IMHO..
The Axis didn't find the PT's..
SALUTE!
Newman
327th Steel Talons FSO CO
Dunkirk!
And I did have FUN!