Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: lasersailor184 on December 03, 2005, 08:35:03 PM
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An idea just occured to me.
One of the problems with Torps in Aces High is the fact that the fleets are always moving at 100% speed. From what I understand, they only did this when launching aircraft, or when under extreme extreme danger.
It was very hard to mantain that speed.
Anyway, because of this, it is very hard to land a torpedo hit in AH.
We know that the fleets will NOT be slowed down.
So why not speed the torpedoes up? I know it's not historically accurate, but I believe it to be the only way fix the problem with the speedy fleets.
Discuss.
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Good request! Torpedos are all but useless 90% of the time because they won't catch a running fleet. And the 1% time you're in front of the fleet chances are you're in a world of trouble. I think doubling the torp speed (but keeping the current lifespan) would be a good compromise, considering that the fleet is going about twice as fast as it should.
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Something I noticed last night is that torps fired from a PT boat at full speed are actually out run by the PT!!!
That just can't be right... Am I supposed to believe that our PT's went 55 but our torps could not?
And if they could...well, excuse my ignorance...
Anyhow, they seem way too slow to me.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Something I noticed last night is that torps fired from a PT boat at full speed are actually out run by the PT!!!
That just can't be right... Am I supposed to believe that our PT's went 55 but our torps could not?
And if they could...well, excuse my ignorance...
Anyhow, they seem way too slow to me.
If I remember right - early US aerial torps would just barely outrun a warship. Most Carriers, Cruisers & Destroyers could do 30+ knots in a pinch.
I have info on US Sub-launched torps (I think the Mk.10 had basicly the same performance as the 18" air dropped torp.)
MK.10: 36 Knots with a range of 3,500 yards.
MK.14: 46 Knots with a range of 4,500 yards or twice as far at 31.5 knots.
As to Sailor's comment - true they usually cruised along at lower speed but as soon as the enemy was spotted most ships went to Full or even Flank speed. Neither did they travel in a nice straight line to give the enemy torpedo bombers time to line up on them from a distance or not try to avoid the torps once launched.
IMO, a decent torpedo sight with range grids would do wonders in bringing the hit average up.
:aok
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The trick is to deploy the fish as late as possible, as to be more accurate.
The probem is that 9 out of 10 times, you die...
I've heard about the Swordfish attack on the Italian fleet, they said they were flying so low, all the bullets went right over them!
What I definately like to see is that the CV's defensive fire doesn't aim at 1 target at the time! The just pick out the closest and start pounding..
In real life, every gunner would try and catch the closest one, but not ALL guns would fire at 1 target! (although many)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
One of the problems with Torps in Aces High is the fact that the fleets are always moving at 100% speed. From what I understand, they only did this when launching aircraft, or when under extreme extreme danger.
As it already said, when attacked fleet always went in full speed. So there is no difference with real life, exept fact what CV in MA most time in extreme danger.
Torpedos are useless not because of fleet's speed, but because of AA effectiviness of fleet's manned 88, lack of figher's cover and the fact what any dweeb can up lanc formation an sink CV from level w/o any troubles.
Real torpedo attack never was easy and safe task.
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Originally posted by Oleg
Real torpedo attack never was easy and safe task.
But it *was* effective, unlike in Aces High.
I think the problem is that in real life CV's got attacked by large groups of torpedo bombers, and in Aces High you'll mostly see 'heroic' single attacks
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in aces high the historical level/torpedo bombing sucess rate is completely reversed.
make level bombing much less accurate, AI puffy ack far more lethal to bombers, torps faster.
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Originally posted by frank3
But it *was* effective, unlike in Aces High.
I think the problem is that in real life CV's got attacked by large groups of torpedo bombers, and in Aces High you'll mostly see 'heroic' single attacks
No doubt. If AH's CV will attacked with same way as real CV was attacked torpedos will effective also. Even more effective because of limited controllability of CV. But who cares about "right" torpedo attack, if any dweeb can up lanc formation ... and so on.
Torpedo must remain same, bombs need to be changed.
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Hmm, to change bombs just because it's too easy to sink a CV with a Lancaster is quite....drastic..
In fact, lancasters DID sink ships in real life! (Remember the Tirpitz, sunk by the Grand Slam bomb, dropped by Lancasters)
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Originally posted by frank3
In fact, lancasters DID sink ships in real life! (Remember the Tirpitz, sunk by the Grand Slam bomb, dropped by Lancasters)
Remember, it was at anchor in that time. And they drop Tallboys not Grand Slams afaik
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I remember our task groups to travel at about 45mph - which is about 39 knots(using statute miles, since WW2 didn't use nautical miles IIRC). That's an entire fleet travelling faster than an average anti-sub destroyer at its attack run - and that's only when running straight, too. When the ships begin to turn and take up new positions they travel even faster.
IMO, there should be a "cruise mode" and "combat mode" the fleet commander can set. In the "cruise mode", the ships will travel as it is (for sake of gameplay), but it won't be able to launch planes or use any ship guns other than AA guns(20mm, 40mm, 5", etc..)
In "combat mode", the ships should slow down to about 20knots(23mph (statute miles)). The guns can be used and planes can be launched at this mode.
A separate "emergency maneuvers" button would be added to the control box when the fleet is in combat mode, which the entire fleet goes into a preset evasive maneuver such as "knuckle right/left", the ships accelerating to full speed, turning as hard as they can, so the fleet commander doesn't have to switch to "cruise mode" manually and halt ship bombardment or plane launching. However, these evasives would have a slow moving ship accelerate at a reasonable level, so it would be a lot less effective than our current fleet breaking left or right in insane circles.
Changing between "cruise mode" and "combat mode" would also take a certain bit of time, since the ships all have to accelerate or slow down and crews/pilots go to "battle stations". Maybe something like a 2 minute interval.
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If i understood right, you ask for ships behavior which exactly opposite to real? And make ships even more easy targets than now? Wow.
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Actually, what he's talking about makes sense. That's exactly how REAL ships evaded level bombing, by circling and zig-zagging, especially if you remember that to be accurate the bombsight needs to be calibrated and the bomber can't do a lot of maneuvering while on its attack run.
Although I think "Cruise mode" should be the lower speed setting, as has been mentioned carriers went to flank to launch their aircraft. Make "Combat" the high-speed setting, with "Emergency maneuvers" a button off of THAT.
Speaking of ships:
What about adding more flexibility to naval warfare? Right now we really only have the CV groups and what they can deal out. What about adding to that? Independent destroyer and cruiser squadrons, (send a group of DDs to make torpedo runs against the CV groups) battleship groups (who WOULDN'T want to see those 15" guns open up on a target?). Add freighters and tankers as another option to Goons and M3s for running supplies, just make them controlled the same as the CV groups.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I remember our task groups to travel at about 45mph - which is about 39 knots(using statute miles, since WW2 didn't use nautical miles IIRC). That's an entire fleet travelling faster than an average anti-sub destroyer at its attack run - and that's only when running straight, too. When the ships begin to turn and take up new positions they travel even faster.
The flank speed of an Essex Class carrier (CV-9) was 33 knots. This was with a clean belly and all boilers lit. A scared carrier with the boiler relief valves disabled might pull a bit more than that in real life after a few months at sea.
When a CV group is attacked the Carrier would be in the center of a defensive circle and it would manuver at will. The other ships would stay the heck out of the way.
A few things about the current CV group.
1. The ships are too close to the CV.
2. The US Navy did not employ escort destroyers in defense of a fleet class CV. Besides the DEs these seem to be modeld off of (the John C Butler's) could not top 24 knots.
3. The destroyer escorts should be changed to fleet destroyers of either the Fletcher, Gearing or Allen B Sumner Classes.
4. The amount of Ack currently thrown up is about 5% of what a real CV group would employ. So the dedication of the group's current attention toward a single inbound plane is about what would happen if multiple bogies were attacking at once.
What I would like to see is different CV groups. The IJN could not come close to putting up the amount of Ack that a USN group could. Also the did not have the proximity fuses we are currently benefitting from.
Aerial torpedoes were the baine of the CV groups. Something needs to be done to bring that into AW.
Also, it would be sweet to add convoys that could be attacked.
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Glad I've sparked a discussion.
I like the 3 different speed settings for the CV idea. However, I would like to make sure that limits are imposed on them.
I.E. You can only go full out for 10 or 15 minutes. It takes 2 minutes to regain the ability to go 1 minute full out.
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Something I thought I would just throw out there.
How about when a CV takes 95% damage, the task group will stop. When carriers were very badly hit in WW2 they would stop and try to salvage the ship. This is how the Yorktown was sunk at Midway, it had to stop because of damage received from dive bombers. Just as they thought they were going to save the Yorktown, it was hit by a torpedo from a Japanese submarine.
For gameplay sake once a cv stops it is as good as dead, so make it so it only stops for 5 minutes and its damage will go from say 98% to 90%
And when it was stopped maybe all manned guns can come back online? I know its unrealistic but would be needed to have any chance of stopping an attack. This would also ENCOURAGE the use of torpedos because the carrier is sitting still, you can drop your torp at a range of about 3k and not be in the center of the ack. Just have to hope that torpedo gets to the carrier before it starts moving OR a PT boat puts itself in the way of it.
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If i understood right, you ask for ships behavior which exactly opposite to real? And make ships even more easy targets than now? Wow.
Yup.
It's already so easy to sink a CV that a change in this direction practically has no gross effect on how 'easier' it is to sink. However, it improves the success rates of torpedo attacks to a reasonable level.
Besides, the reason why CVs are so easy to sink is usually because they sail unprotected with stupid people in command, stationary at a single spot and exposing itself as a target for god knows how long. It is an issue that has no direct relevance to the current discussion.
The suggested speed "modes" are ahistoric because our CV group itself is ahistoric. In our game CVs are usually used as mobile fortress/airbase parked 5 miles off enemy coastal base, equipped with an "point-and-click" 5 inch AA gun that fires proximity shells, and maneuvers 180 degrees within 60 seconds from a stand-still position, without a damage modelling.
Its only natural.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I remember our task groups to travel at about 45mph - which is about 39 knots(using statute miles, since WW2 didn't use nautical miles IIRC). That's an entire fleet travelling faster than an average anti-sub destroyer at its attack run - and that's only when running straight, too. When the ships begin to turn and take up new positions they travel even faster.
A pretty easy fix might be to set the speed of the Fleets to a more "Realistic" speed of around 25 - 30 Knots.
Only the most powerful Fleet Type Destroyers could make anything near 39 Knots - very few Capital Ships could do above 33 Knots. 30 Knots would be closer to average.
:aok
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36 knots was the fastest ship in a typical US CV group (the DD's). The CA's, most CV's and Iowa class BB's were 32-33 knots. Lexington class CV's were rated at 34 knots (and had hit over 36 knots in service) as were some IJN CV's, while USS Wasp and Ranger could make 29 knots. North Carolina and South Dakota class BB's were only good for 27 and 28 knots respectively.
It was a very rare occasion when a CV group traveled at more than 25-30 knots. A good speed to have them run would be 28 knots or so, but 39 knots is just wrong.
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To add to Grits list for those interested:
Most of the pre-war built Battleships (Pennsylvania, Mississippi, New Mexico, Idaho, Tennessee, California, West Virginia, Maryland & Colorado) were all rated at 21 Knots. Nevada could only do 20 Knots. The oldest BB's, (Arkansas, Texas & New York) could only do 19 Knots after their modernization.
Some of the other fastest ships in the WW2 U.S. Navy & their rated speeds:
San Diego Class CLAA: 35 Knots
Wickes Class DD (old 4 pipers): 35 Knots
Mahan Class DD: 36.5 Knots
Selfridge Class DD: 37 Knots (39 Knots on trials)
Fletcher Class DD: 36.5 Knots
Sumner Class DD: 36.5 Knots
Gearing Class DD: 36.8 Knots
Most of the USN CA's & CL's are all rated from 32 - 33 Knots.
Some othe fast ships (above average speeds) from other WW2 Navies:
JAPAN
Mogami Class CA: 37 Knots (Not bad for a Heavy Cruiser!)
Fubuki Class DD: 38 Knots
Kaegro Class DD: 36 Knots
ENGLAND
J/N/K Class DD: 36 Knots
O & P Class DD: 37 Knots
ITALY
Condottieri Class CL: 37 Knots
Ciano Class CL: 41 Knots
Folgore Class DD: 38 Knots
Navigatori Class DD: 38 Knots
:aok
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The speed of the Iowa class BB was really the most significant improvement, but you always hear about the armor and the guns. With the top speed of 33 knots you finally had a BB that could stay with a CV Task Group no matter what they did or how fast they went.
I think the most impressive ships were the Lexington class CV's Lexington and Saratoga. I am not sure, but I highly doubt any ship of any type with the tonnage of the Lex class ever went 36+ knots.
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Ok... this thread is interesting... I have somethings to add...
Originally posted by lasersailor184
So why not speed the torpedoes up?
Not really of higher speed, but modelling Japanese torpedoes would be a good solution. Slightly faster than the German torpedoes by 2 knots, and can be launched at considerably a higher speed (183 vs 280 knots). Comparison to the Mk13 is difficult because continued improvement on the Mk13 made a considerable difference from the start of the Pacific War to the end while it was still called the Mk13...
details are here... Ok... so, which torps? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128786)
Speed can be calibrated in exchange for range. I wish this was modelled too, although I am not sure if the bombardier could control this while in flight. If not, then we can have pre-calibrated torpedoes when we load them in the hanger.
Originally posted by Kweassa
I remember our task groups to travel at about 45mph - which is about 39 knots(using statute miles, since WW2 didn't use nautical miles IIRC). That's an entire fleet travelling faster than an average anti-sub destroyer at its attack run - and that's only when running straight, too. When the ships begin to turn and take up new positions they travel even faster.
IMO, there should be a "cruise mode" and "combat mode" the fleet commander can set. In the "cruise mode", the ships will travel as it is (for sake of gameplay), but it won't be able to launch planes or use any ship guns other than AA guns(20mm, 40mm, 5", etc..)
In "combat mode", the ships should slow down to about 20knots(23mph (statute miles)). The guns can be used and planes can be launched at this mode.
A separate "emergency maneuvers" button would be added to the control box when the fleet is in combat mode, which the entire fleet goes into a preset evasive maneuver such as "knuckle right/left", the ships accelerating to full speed, turning as hard as they can, so the fleet commander doesn't have to switch to "cruise mode" manually and halt ship bombardment or plane launching. However, these evasives would have a slow moving ship accelerate at a reasonable level, so it would be a lot less effective than our current fleet breaking left or right in insane circles.
Changing between "cruise mode" and "combat mode" would also take a certain bit of time, since the ships all have to accelerate or slow down and crews/pilots go to "battle stations". Maybe something like a 2 minute interval.
I like this idea! If I may suggest a modification...
1. I would make it difficult to launch aircraft and fire guns at "cruise mode". Perhaps add listing of ships when it turns at high speeds and the bow goes up and down in the waves. Take off is at your own risk! In "emergency manuevers" the ship lists for obvious reasons.
2. Changes from "cruise mode" to "combat mode" and vice versa and usage of "Emergency manuevers" can only be applied from the tower of the CV.
And lastly... please model formations on carrier-borne bombers ;)
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Originally posted by Grits
I think the most impressive ships were the Lexington class CV's Lexington and Saratoga. I am not sure, but I highly doubt any ship of any type with the tonnage of the Lex class ever went 36+ knots.
I quite agree - I have a lot of material on the LEXINGTON CLASS Battlecruisers before they were converted to Carriers. The Lexington Class BC's were designed to be the fastest Battlecruisers ever built with more horsepower than even the British HMS Hood.
What made them the the fasted Carriers in the USN (or any other Navy), besides their massive horsepower & Turbo-Electric Drive, was their "Length to Beam Ratio." Besides having the most HP, the LEXINGTON CLASS CV's were also the longest ships in the USN till the MIDWAY CLASS CVA's came along.
LEXINGTON CLASS CV: Length: 850'.....Beam: 105'4".....SHP: 180,000
(180K was designed SHP but it is recored that the Lex & Sara both got up to 210K SHP on trials.)
YORKTOWN CLASS CV: Length: 761'.....Beam: 109'5".....SHP: 120,000
ESSEX CLASS CV: Length: 872'....Beam: 147'....SHP: 150,000
(For Comparison)
IOWA CLASS BB: Length: 861'....Beam: 108'2"....SHP: 212,000
SOUTH DAKOTA CLASS BB: Length: 655'....Beam: 108'2"....SHP: 130,000
NORTH CAROLINA CLASS BB: Length: 704'....Beam: 108'3"....SHP 115,000
HOOD CLASS BC: Length: 810'....Beam: 105'....SHP: 144,000
(NOTE: All Lengths are at Waterline. SHP = Shaft Horsepower.)
As for the Iowa Class BB, to enable it to operate with the fast carriers, the South Dakota Class BB design was esentually taken back to the drawing board and re-worked to lengthen it and add more horsepower to the design to up it's speed and bunkerage for fuel.
I once read an armor study on comparisons between the two designs and it was figured the South Dakota's were actually better protected (even with reduction in speed) than the Iowa's because of their shorter hull made the armor citadel easer to cover vital parts of the ship.