Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Larry on December 06, 2005, 02:35:48 PM
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Was wondering if anyone has any info to compare our Ta152H to the Ta152C. I have a photo showing that the C had 2x Mg 151/20 in the cowl 2x Mg 151/20 in the inner wing and could have eather a Mk 103 or a Mk108 in the hub. I was wondering what the production numbers are on the C, and if its close to the H then if HTC could think about replaceing them since most people, includeing me, think that the one we have now isnt worth perking. If the C model is good enough to be put in the game then by just looking at its armament then I would pay as much as a Chog. Here (http://www.freewebs.com/linkafi/ArmiTa152C.jpg) the photo.
Please people dont turn this into another LW vs. everyone else.
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Geee ... wouldn't the weight of the extra guns affect the "performace" ... :rofl
But, yeah, that guns package would make it worth the perks. Also I think the C variant had wings more like a D9 (i.e. it wasn't optimized for high alt like the H) so it'd retain the wonderful Fw roll rate.
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I have a fairly good book on Kurt Tank's stuff at home. I'll see if I can get the numbers for you tonight.
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The guns did weigh it down, and on top of that the wings were just a tad longer than Dora wings (no long-span -H wings) so that further affects performance, and a slightly less powerful engine. So compared to the H-1 it would be a dog.... But a dog I'd fly repeatedly!!
EDIT: I did find one source that said the Ta152C was fitted with a DB603L (with MW50) instead of the H-1s Junkers 213 E (which had GM1 and MW50) engine. It was considered one of the best medium-altitude fighters of the war.
Supposedly the 152C had all the flight characteristics of the A but had greater range and much more engine power. Considering that the AH 190A8 ought to fly similar to the way the AH 190a5 flies, and the A5 ought to fly worse, can you imaging flying AH's 190a5 with 4x20mms, 1x30mm, and a supercharged inline engine????
Oh I'm sorry, let me get a mop to wipe up all this drool.. oooh, there I go again! Hurry, get me a shamoi!
EDIT2: blueprint link (http://www.3dbug.com/image.php?bp=283&PHPSESSID=f2512546608dd4b8bca592478acda9f1)
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Got quite alot of info about it, will see if I can post some pictures tomorrow.
There were some 40 finished fuselages waiting for engines when the Americans overran the factory. Another two planes, with installed engines (most likely DB 603 E's) had left the factory, where they went and what happaned to them is unknown.
Another three finished prototype C's were found, two of them flyable and one destroyed by the Germans. The destroyed one had the DB 603-LA engine installed (better high altitude performance than the E).
No pre-production (C-0) or Production (C-1) planes were delivered to any operational units. Not even to any evaluation squadrons.
During testing, a prototype, Ta 152 V6 (using a DB 603 E) reached speeds of 547 km/h (341 mph) at sea-level at Combat Power (2,500 rpm and 1.45 ataboost) and 647 km/h (404 Mph) at its maximum boost altitude.
Using emergency power (2,500 rpm and 1.95 ata boost) it reached 617 km/h (385 mph) at sea-level and 687 km/h at its maximum boost altitude.
C1 weight would be 5322 kg (11708 lbs) fully loaded (including full fuel, guns and ammo aswell as MW50 system filled up). 2x Mg151/20 with 150 rpg (cowling). 2x Mg151/20 with 175 rpg (wingroots) and a Mk 108 30mm cannon with 90 shells, engine mounted.
The DB 603 was planned for the production versions and the DB 603 L as a stopgap untill the LA was available.
Will give more info later.... "24" on TV now.
More over. The plane looks more like a Dora/Ta 152 hybrid, that would mean a new 3D modell so no go in just changing the H for a C. Second, the plane ever entered production.
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That sucks it sounds like it could have been a pretty good plane.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html
"Series production orders for the Ta 152C had been placed in October 1944, the delays being a result of the Luftwaffe still continuing to support the Jumo 213 over the DB 603 for the Ta 152 as late as the autumn of 1944. The Ta 152C with the lighter DB 603 engine was otherwise identical to the Ta 152B. It was considered primarily as a Zerstorer. The MW 50 boost installation for the enhancement of low-altitude performance was standard. An Fw 190D prototype had been rebuilt and flown with a DB 603 engine in support of the Ta 152C program, and this plane took to the air for the first time in October 1944. During December 1944 and January 1945, the first Ta 152C-O service test aircraft joined the test program. The definitive production version was to be the Ta 152C-1, and it was hoped that the first examples could be rolling off the production lines in April of 1945. However, series production of the Ta 152C was only just beginning when Allied forces overran the assembly plants, so this fighter never entered service with the Luftwaffe.
The Ta 152C-1 was powered by a Daimler-Benz DB 603LA twelve-cylinder liquid cooled engine rated at 2100 hp (2300 hp with MW 50) for takeoff and 1750 hp at 29,530 feet (1900 hp at 27,560 feet with MW 50). Armed with one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon with 90 rounds, two fuselage-mounted 20-mm MG 151 cannon with 250 rpg, and two wing-mounted 20-mm MG252 cannon with 175 rpg. Maximum speed was 227 mph at sea level (356 mph with MW 50), 436 mph at 37,730 feet (460 mph at 32,810 feet with MW 50). Initial climb rate was 3050 feet per minute and service ceiling was 40,350 feet. Weights were 8849 lbs empty, 10,658 lbs normal loaded, and 11,733 pounds maximum. Wingspan was 36 feet 1 inch, length was 35 feet 6 1/2 inches, height was 11 feet 1 inch, and wing area was 290.89 square feet."
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You can have that one if we can have the Spitfire 21...and that one did reach squadron service and did fire some shots in anger before the war was over :)
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C-1 was the first production version. There were some made. More than the H-1? Probably not.
As for seeing combat -- well the Do 335 saw combat, while being tested for combat readiness or some such. However records were so poor, or lost, or never created, at the end of the war that we would never be able to prove the Do335 saw combat. Same for the C-1. I doubt they'd have them and NOT use them, because every way you look was the front line for Germans at the time C-1s were being made.
My $0.02: I'd love to see it in AH.
My expectations: We won't.
EDIT: I found an excerpt from a book about the first testing of the Ta152H-1s they captured at the end of the war.
"Ta-152H1 Werke# 150168 as delivered to the October 1945 'Exhibition of German Aircraft and Equipment' display at Farnborough by Eric Brown on the 22nd.
Upon arrival from Brize Norton where it had been in storeage since 18 August; the infamous German Brakes faded completely and Brown only saved the fighter by leaving the runway for grass-drag and opposite spin-turning on rudder to prevent a ground loop.
Inavailability of MW50 and GM-1 prevented full exploitation and comparitive evaluation of the plane's performance envelope but Brown did make a 35K power run, 'dry', at 425mph. Speed/climb/turn were all variously 'competitive but inferior' to the Spit XIX but close enough to have been redressed by the boosters. Range was superior.
Longitudinal/pitch stability was better than the radial butcher bird but still arduous to maintain under hand control for protracted lengths while roll rate and crispness had noticeably detiorated from the original sparkle.
Eric Browns _Wings Of The Luftwaffe_, pgs 87-91 - description by Kurt Plummer "
[That went along with this photo:
http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Fw190/ta152h1.jpg ]
So that would seem to imply that, depending on the info used for AH, ours may be underpowered. It sure handles differently than that.
What was the Spit XIX? And how did it perform? What was top speed/climb?
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Edited to keep thread on track.
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Originally posted by Krusty
What was the Spit XIX? And how did it perform? What was top speed/climb?
Spit 19 was the recce version of the Spitfire XIV. No guns, good cameras.
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/SpitPR19.jpg)
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Yes, but the Ta152H-1 was tested against the XIX, so I was wondering what the baseline specs for the XIX were.
Seeing that it's a late ware bubble top "20-series" I'm guessing it had phenominal climb rate and fast speed.
In which case perhaps our Ta152 climb rate isn't modeled correctly.
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XIX looks like 19 to me :)
Performance specs for the Spitfire 19
Maximum speed at 26000 feet 446 MPH
At Sea Level 360
Cruising at 35000 feet 398 mph
Range 1,085 miles with 90 gallon overload tank
Initial climb 4310 feet per minute
Time to 35000 feet 15.5 minutes.
Service ceiling 42000 feet
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I'm not dyslexic, I swear!! :P
Good catch, but still a pretty late-war plane, no?
EDIT:
"Initial climb 4310 feet per minute
Time to 35000 feet 15.5 minutes."
So, a Ta152 without GM1 or MW50 would have a "competitive but inferior" climb rate... Say 3750 or so? More perhaps? 4000?
Whereas in AH we can barely break 2250 without WEP. Something's not right here.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not dyslexic, I swear!! :P
Good catch, but still a pretty late-war plane, no?
Yep 1944-45. First deliveries in May 44. Pressurized and really able to get up there. Postwar during testing in 1948 they were running over England unopposed at 49K. Radar couldn't continuously track them and the jets had difficulty getting up there to em.
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Originally posted by Larry
Please people dont turn this into another LW vs. everyone else.
Come on I asked this already and its startings up already. Keep this thread on track.
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This isn't an axis vs allied flame posting TK, there was a quote that directly compared the H-1 to a specific spitfire, so I asked what those specs were. Nothing more.
EDIT: But, going back to the topic, I think you'd have to look for use/testing/deployment history on the C-0/C-1 to see when/where it might have seen combat.
As a side note, some sources claim 3x 30mm (1 in hub 2 in wing roots) but I believe they are wrong because I don't think the 30mm could be synchronized.
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Originally posted by Larry
Come on I asked this already and its startings up already. Keep this thread on track.
Gotta turn the sensitivity meter down a bit. Krusty asked about the Spit 19 and I answered.
You can have all the Luftwaffe planes that HTC is willing to model. I hope they get to exactly the specs you think are correct. I hope they unperk em all :)
I just can't get worked up about any of it, but I like learning what I can and sharing any info I have that might be helpful
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What? Am I invisible? Did anyone actually read my first post?
The Jumo 213E was never really planned for the Ta152 C guys, it was considered an emergency backup.
The DB 603 LA was the engine that was suposed to be used, L would serve while the LA was under development.
Tests beds were flown with the E engine.
Jumo 213 E was used in the H versions.
Jumo 222 E was planned for a version (similair in apperence to the C) using a Laminar flow wing. The Jumo 222 E was capable of about 2,500hp without MW50 and 2,900 hp with MW50 for takeoff power. It had been used in smoe bomber programs near the end of the war but was never put in to large scale production.
Krusty, there were no C-1's delivered so unfortunaly it can't really be compared to the H0 or H1.
Larry, I wouldn't trust that page very much, they are wrong about the armament and ammunition amongst other things. The page is also based from three books from mid to late 60's and early 70. Non of which were dedicated to the Ta 152 or even late war 190's, only one infact, being dedicated to the Fw 190 at all, the two others were merly books about Germanies warplanes "over all".
I sugest you read my first post instead.
And can people STFU about the spit already?
What part of Please people dont turn this into another LW vs. everyone else.
was hard to understand?
What Larry asked for was a thread about the Ta152 C, info, specs, service records (if any). Numbers produced and wether it would be a suitable replacement for the H (which it won't be, it is like asking for a 190 D instead of a 190 A). He did NOT ask for spitfans to Hijack the thread.
:mad:
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"Gotta turn the sensitivity meter down a bit. Krusty asked about the Spit 19 and I answered." <-- read that. Absorb it. There might be a message in there.
Wilbus, the C-1 was the production model, whether there were any delivered was another matter. It is very likely they were tested and/or encountered the enemy at some point in their testing. So even if they were not in a squadron, per se, they may fit the criteria HT has for planes in AH: That they saw combat.
As for you being invisible.. wtf? Dude, you made a helpful post. I read it. I'm sure everybody did. Nobody contradicted you! Nobody's saying "Why hasn't Wilbus posted yet?!?" Have we done anything wrong here? We assimilated the info and kept going, what's the crime?
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I haven't found anything which says the 152C saw action, so that makes me tend to doubt HT will model it. For many obvious reasons.
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Yes Krusty I know the C-1 was the production version, did I say it wasn't? :)
No you haven't done anything wrong, chill mate :)
My post about being invisible was ment towards the fact that people, afterwards kept disputing the facts that the C1 saw service and action with any kind of squadron or evaluation squadron. Those are and can only remain purly speculations untill some kind of records are actually found about it. To this date I know of no such records nor have I heard of anyone who does.
It is actually highly unlikely they ever saw combat.
As much as I'd like to see the plane in AH there really aren't any facts that can caulify it for AH.
Another thing, look at the performance of the Ta152 H-1 we have, like the performance, think it is representative of what you read about the Ta152 H-1? Think it is representative of this The Ta 152 was my life insurance in the last days of the war. Willi Reschke
?
Would you like a plane, with even less facts, charts, performance notes, details etc than the H1, to be added to AH?
I wouldn't.
One more thing, re-read some of my last "am I invisible" post again please, it has been edited and you answered to quick so stop pushing the reload button before I have time to look through my post! :p
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Yea guppy but this is how it starts next thing you know. The next thing you know the whole thread is nothing about LW FMs are undermodeled.
I'm asking about any info because I tryed the Ta152 at 20K hunting the few bombers that go up that high and found it great for the job. Since then it has become my main ride, and ZG 1 has done a few high alt bomber intercept missions up to 20-25+K and it has been fun. Fun enough that Im ganna see if I can get 100+ kills in it. Kinda a pre ToD thing. But I really dont think it is even worth the 5-7 perks.
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Btw I would love any pics you have if its not to much trouble.
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Of just the C or of the H as well?
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Just the Ta152 in general Im starting to love this plane and what to know as much as a can about it and have some pics.
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An interesting read (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html)
I don't know if it's entirely accurate. It gives the old myth that Tas were flying cover for 262s while they landed/took off (and 190Ds did that, not Tas), and it says some Tas were used for Mistels -- I doubt that part. Otherwise some interesting stuff.
EDIT: Captured 152 before testing at the end of the war:
http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Fw190/luft65.jpg
Same or different one after testing:
http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Fw190/ta152.gif
RAF's 152 after testing:
http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Fw190/ta152h1.jpg
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a few pics. I'm guessing someone will probably question the accuracy of the captions. I don't know if they are correct or not.
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/TA1521.jpg)
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/TA1522.jpg)
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Oooh, check it out: present-day photos of the last one owned by NASM (currently in storage)
http://www.thomasgenth.de/survivors/Ta152/ta152.html
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JG301 Ta152H-0 of Walter Loos, April 45. This is the surviving Ta152 at Garber. If the site Krusty posted is accurate, Loos had the most kills in a 152 with 3
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/152h0Loos.jpg)
JG301 TA152H-1 of Willie Reschke April 45
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/RescheTA.jpg)
TA152C-1 of JG301 April 30, 1945 when apparently they had 2 operational 152Cs
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/152C1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
TA152C-1 of JG301 April 30, 1945 when apparently they had 2 operational 152Cs
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/152C1.jpg)
Hrm... I have to ask: How reliable is the source for that? It would be nice if true!
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Captions look Ok Dan except for the last one.
No WNr can be seen. H-1 started with 150020 or 021 and went to 150040, 150167-169.
The 1st pic is the V-7, WNr 110007, which flew for the first time Jan 8 45.
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Amazing what turns up in the old home library. Another profile of a JG301 Ta152H-1. No clue how accurate
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/1522.jpg)
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Like I said about that page before (posted by Larry and Krusty) it has quite a few misstakes in it. All the info is taken from Three 30-40 year old books. After that alot more info has been discovered.
Ta 152's never flew top-cover to 262's (another thing written on that Page). It just another myth. It was sure as hell never used with the Mistels, there weren't enough Ta's built for that + that part was easily more suited for the 190 A's.
Larry, if you really want info about the Ta 152, and want accurate info I sugest you by this (http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0764308602) book. It is without doubt the best and most well researched Ta 152 book you will find with lots of pictures, drawings and charts.
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According to a list of WNr in the Hermann 152 book, 150028 was converted from a H-0. Would say it is wishful fanatasy by someone.
Get the book Wilbus suggested.
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Better profile of the one posted earlier. JG301 flown by Josef Keil
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/15234.jpg)
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But, it sas "110028" not "150028". Any info on 110028?
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Here ya go Larry. From the box art of a Ta152 my son was building a while ago. Up close and personal. Might look good as wallpaper
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/152Box.jpg)
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Thanks guppy. I started on that second profile that you posted flown by Willie Reschke yesterday. Since the default Ta152 is 256x256 and is kinda in I have to do the panel lines from a pic I have, but I dont have one that shows the wings rivets and was wondering if anyone has one. I just need the top and bottem wing riveting, and cant find the thread in the skins forum that has a website that shows planes rivets and panel lines.
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Hrm.. that's a tough one... I actually did some searching a while ago to find stuff to make a good 152 skin. The ones that haven't been done were almost identical to the ones that have been, so I didn't make one. I do remember, however, that finding rivets was hard. I searched all over the Internet and found nothing. Best bet would be.... I don't know... maybe close-ups of the Dora wing? Up til the 11m point it would be very similar.
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Yea I might end up just going with a non historical riveting methodso the wing doesnt get to cluttered.
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Going back to the green 13 -- the supposed -C color plate, does anybody know anything about wrk no 110028?
Also: would like if this comment about having 2 operational Cs could be verified or some such.
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wonder how long good old Dr Tank would make the next variant of the 190. we could call it the Ta 152M for Mandingo
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Fat chance.
A truckload of Cragganmore wouldn't make HT blink if it had 152C written on the side.
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Yeah ... this is interesting and all (I didn't know about the C model before) but unlikely to yield a new plane. If the Fw190 line were modeled better there'd be a lot less interest in the Ta152 since the D9 would probably be very close to perk-worthy.
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Originally posted by Krusty
But, it sas "110028" not "150028". Any info on 110028?
As far as I can tell there never was a WNr. 110 028. This is allmost certanly a misstake and a mixup by the artist.
List of prototypes (all TA variants).
The last plane in the 110 batch was 110 026.
Two prototypes using 150 batch numbers existed, these were 150 027 and 028. Both were used as engine test beds and Mk 103 engine mounted cannon test beds (what would be the C3 version of the plane). Some more planes were converted to C3 standards for testing.
It is not known, and it is quite unlikely that any more than four planes of the C-0 (pre-production) ever flew. V6, V7 and V8 aswell as one converted Ta 152H (V27 or V28).
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I think it is unlikely we'll see another LW bird in a long long time considering we only whine about it once it is released. (be it justified or not).
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http://cgi.ebay.ch/vorl-Flugzeug-Handbuch-TA-152-H-0-und-H-1-Nachdruck_W0QQitemZ8353096552QQcategoryZ43787QQcmdZViewItem
-C+
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Link doesn't work charge.
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We'll hopefully see the 190's reworked. Question remains which ones and how. Maybe an idea for the 190 lineup??
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No no no no no no... no!
Don't start that again Angus lol. We royally made a mess with the spitfire and 109 suggestions (mostly the spitfires) on these forums. I say let HTC do the decision-making for a while, and we lay low :P
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Would disagree Krusty, we almost got exactly what we suggested for the Spit line-up, so I wouldn't call it a 'mess'.
In reality only one model changed, Seafire IIc instead of III, so 6 outta 7 aint bad (good title for a song?).
Pyro actaully said he read the thread and agreed almost 100% with our suggestions, so see no reason why you can't do the same for the 190's.
Although having already been reworked I would guess another rework before the remaining planes are done is probably doubtful.
I would highly doubt a 152C would even be considered, did any see combat, I think I seen someone suggested maybe a whole 2.
(ohh - sent in the SEAC VIII today)
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Kev, despite the results, the process was a mess lol. People whining nonstop, spit drivers throwing out epitaphs like "luftwhiner" at me because I set foot into a virtual 109 cockpit in AH at least once in my virtual AH career, and discounting my words because I wasn't a true spit dweeb, I mean driver (heh heh, intentional dig). The process itself was a total mess and filled with more noise than helpful information.
There are probably better ways. Sending e-mails to HTC perhaps, rather than doing it here on the forums.
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There's always going to be poeple with their own favourites, I think thats were the 'mess' comes in.
In the end once all the pros/cons were added up we all seemed to settle on the final line-up (minimum number, most representative).
Think both me Dan would have liked at least the XII added in also, personally myself for a 1945 RAF plane I would have liked the F.21 . (maybe way off in AH future :) ).
Doesn't hurt to at least suggest, even if the early/mid stages are a mess.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
There's always going to be poeple with their own favourites, I think thats were the 'mess' comes in.
In the end once all the pros/cons were added up we all seemed to settle on the final line-up (minimum number, most representative).
Think both me Dan would have liked at least the XII added in also, personally myself for a 1945 RAF plane I would have liked the F.21 . (maybe way off in AH future :) ).
Doesn't hurt to at least suggest, even if the early/mid stages are a mess.
Someone say Spit XII?
Sorry Larry...won't happen again :)
(http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/27/DP845x2.jpg)
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I think the original focus of the thread is finished. :)
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nm
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Wilbus: The general process of the forums being used to discuss the options. That's what was messed up :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Kev, despite the results, the process was a mess lol. People whining nonstop, spit drivers throwing out epitaphs like "luftwhiner" at me because I set foot into a virtual 109 cockpit in AH at least once in my virtual AH career, and discounting my words because I wasn't a true spit dweeb, I mean driver (heh heh, intentional dig). The process itself was a total mess and filled with more noise than helpful information.
There are probably better ways. Sending e-mails to HTC perhaps, rather than doing it here on the forums.
Hmmm, most of the Spit drivers and Luftwaffe drivers who actually subscribe to this game were quite reasoned. Kev got a bit wound up at times, but Dan and I never resorted to ad hommes that I can recall. There are a few people who seem to post on this board for the purpose of kicking hornet's nests.
As far as the Fw190s go I have long supported a review of the FM and versions in AH. I would like to see a representative lineup for the Fw190s like we just got for Spitfires and I have never claimed otherwise. I would also really like to see the Bf109G-14 get fixed. I like the German fighters a lot.
Frankly the only Allied fighters that I really like are the Spits and Mossies. Other than that the aircraft I like are all German and Japanese. Well, the Il-2 is nice as well.
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Originally posted by Krusty
No no no no no no... no!
Don't start that again Angus lol. We royally made a mess with the spitfire and 109 suggestions (mostly the spitfires) on these forums. I say let HTC do the decision-making for a while, and we lay low :P
a mess? Spitfires now have decent mid war and late war planes (spit 8 and 16). 109 almost got combat flaps but pyro forgot to coad it (lol)
As for 190s... We need *real* 190s! replace the A-5 with A-4 (necessary for 1942-43 channel front battles) and A-6 (a must need for 1943-early 44 8th AF vs LW), and have the 190A-8/F-8's engine overhauled with the bmw801ts for late war so it can play with p-51s in the west and la7s and yak3s in the east (and D-9s can play with the tempest:))
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[EDIT: Read my reply: The process was a mess, not the result :) ]
Ya see, Ik3, you can't ditch the A5 and include the nearly identical A4, then include the nearly identical A6 just for 4xMG151...
You can't have a mid-war with 4xMG151 because then there's no reason to ever fly the 190A8. For a good mid-war plane, the A4, A5, and A6 were all nearly identical (differences to note being the A5 had 6 inches in the nose and the A6 could ditch the MG/FF and go with MG151 in the outboard position).
For the entire mid war period, the A5 is a good compromise. The A4 came before it for a short while, and the A6 came after it for a short while, so just put the middle one in. The only A model that AH needs might be the A-3, and that's debatable. I can't recall off the top of my head if the A3 had the new Mauser guns inboard or if it had 4x7mms and then 2 outboard MG/FF.
As for F models -- the F3 is basically an A5. Just give the A-5 a couple of bomb options and you've got an F3. There was very little difference there. I don't believe the extra armor was added until the F8 (could be wrong).
If anything we might need a G version, with a super heavy center-line bomb (turns out Gs were the ones toting around 1800kg bombs) and 2 outboard wing DTs. That would be interesting, because it had no 7mm guns under the cowling.
But for the most part the 190 selection is decent, as it is. That's not counting the modeling of the selection, just the selection.
You can't have 190As without the A8. If you want anything earlier it's either gotta be the A5 or the A3 if any at all (IMO).
Um.. whoops, didn't mean to go on for so long about that. :)
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Originally posted by 1K3
a mess? Spitfires now have decent mid war and late war planes (spit 8 and 16). 109 almost got combat flaps but pyro forgot to coad it (lol)
Must be looking at a different lineup than me -
Spit 8 = 1943 - Merlin 66
Spit 16 = 1943 LF IX (albeit with .50cals) - Merlin 266 = US made Merlin 66
Spit 14 - 1944 (perked)
So still no 'true free 1944/45' Spit, but a hell of lot better than it was.
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Please, bah! The Spit16 outflies anything in the game right now lol :)
Fess up, Kev, you won't be happy til you get a 4x20mm armed Spit LF.XXII, right? :rofl
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LOLOL
Well that would be the 1945 Spit F.21, but hell I'd settle for 4x20mm Spit Vc.
Looked at WBIII Spit/109/190 lineup and whats in beta, VERY VERY impressive.
Only listed the early Spit's at the moment, but no less than 8, the last being the HF VI. So still got the VII onwards to go :) .
Looks like they'll have a total of 21 or 22 109s alone!!!!
Can't outfly stuff that well, it only has a 1.2 K/D.
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Why not just ask for the FW 190 D-11 or feint chance a D12, saw combat was used extensively albeit only a handful were made but it did see combat. Good guns, good low ot mid alt performance and above else its a FW. I know you asked about the 152, but seeing how it never saw combat I thought I would throw this in as D11 and a few D-12's did see combat. O
One other side note, one must take into account Germanys and Japans production capabilites near the end of the war. New rides were not going to be massed produced, stop gap fillers basically until all piston engines were removed from service to incorporate the jets.
I don't think it would be a big deal to actually ask for and maybe recieve a very late model GE or JP ride. Something competitive is always nice, and a change from the other vanilla flight sims.
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Well I did hear that the Ta152C was the continuation of the late Dora line, and was in fact the end of the Dora line (the Ta152H starting a new breed).
I'll do a quick search to see what the D12 had.
EDIT:
Fw 190D-10
The Fw 190D-10 was an experimental version of the D-9 with an engine-mounted MK 108 cannon and two MG 151 cannon in the wing roots. Only two of these were built.
Fw 190D-11
The Fw 190D-11 was powered by the Jumo 213F with MW-50 boost. The fuselage-mounted guns were eliminated, and there were two MG 151/20 cannon in the wing roots and two MK 108s in the outer wings. Only seven prototypes were built.
Fw 190D-12
The Fw 190D-12 was a fighter-bomber variant, which differed from the D-9 by having a three-stage supercharged Jumo 213F-1 engine rated at 2,060 hp (1537 kW) for takeoff mounted in a new, more extensively armored cowling. Armanent was one engine-mounted 30 mm MK 108 cannon and two 20 mm MG 151/20s in the wing roots. Although primarily a ground-attack plane, the D-12 also made an effective fighter and could attain 453 mph at 37,000 feet when MW-50 boost was used. Production began in March 1945 at the Arado and Fieseler plants, but only a few were delivered.
Fw 190D-13
The D-13 differed from the D-12 by having a Jumo 213EB engine and by having a 20 mm engine-mounted MG 151/20 cannon in place of the 30 mm MK 108 unit. However, only a couple of prototypes were built.
I don't know... That D10 sounds awfully nice... On the other hand, the armor of the D12 is sweet too (how many times do you lose oil in a dora? Honestly!! It's annoying.)
But the D12 and D13 aren't the same as the 152C. The point of the C was that it not only performed well, but it had 4x20mm and 1x30mm.
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Don't look like many of the D11 or D12 were delivered either. If the D9 were modelled to be as fierce as the combat reports indicate, this whole discussion would be moot.
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I will find my book on the D11 as more then 7 were built. I know off hand of 2 that were in active front line units, one being JV44 PLattzschutzstaffel, and the other belonged to a Major, can;t recall his name right now been awhile since I dug through my Luftwaffe books.
And the quote you have Krusty is what I am goin on here, they didn't use MW-50 at 37000 ft, GM-1 would be used in that instance. The D-12 was a monster below 20K, and would be the choice 190 ride if it ever made it in the MA. Doubt it, but I will keep looking. If memory serves me 452/3 was achieved below 20k.
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Spend some money and buy Hermann's Dora book. ISBN 0-7643-1876-4
The D-11 first appeared in the Gen.Qu. 6 Abt's a/c distribution plans in March 1945. Thirteen standard D-11s and 4 with EZ42 gunsights are listed as delivered to operational units. Some more could have been delieverd in April. Known units that had D-11s are Stab JG300, II./JG300, and JV44.
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Originally posted by Krusty
[EDIT: Read my reply: The process was a mess, not the result :) ]
Ya see, Ik3, you can't ditch the A5 and include the nearly identical A4, then include the nearly identical A6 just for 4xMG151...
You can't have a mid-war with 4xMG151 because then there's no reason to ever fly the 190A8. For a good mid-war plane, the A4, A5, and A6 were all nearly identical (differences to note being the A5 had 6 inches in the nose and the A6 could ditch the MG/FF and go with MG151 in the outboard position).
For the entire mid war period, the A5 is a good compromise. The A4 came before it for a short while, and the A6 came after it for a short while, so just put the middle one in. The only A model that AH needs might be the A-3, and that's debatable. I can't recall off the top of my head if the A3 had the new Mauser guns inboard or if it had 4x7mms and then 2 outboard MG/FF.
As for F models -- the F3 is basically an A5. Just give the A-5 a couple of bomb options and you've got an F3. There was very little difference there. I don't believe the extra armor was added until the F8 (could be wrong).
If anything we might need a G version, with a super heavy center-line bomb (turns out Gs were the ones toting around 1800kg bombs) and 2 outboard wing DTs. That would be interesting, because it had no 7mm guns under the cowling.
But for the most part the 190 selection is decent, as it is. That's not counting the modeling of the selection, just the selection.
You can't have 190As without the A8. If you want anything earlier it's either gotta be the A5 or the A3 if any at all (IMO).
Um.. whoops, didn't mean to go on for so long about that. :)
hmmm yeah i think the A-6 is redundant
i've been thinking... if HTC revisits the 190s they should revise the lineup to something like this...
Mid war 190As and Fs
190A-3 (hmmm A-4 sounds better but the A-3 is lighter :))
190F-3 (its a fighter-bomber 190A-5. Has 5 hardpoints but no outboard cannon option)
Late war 190As and Fs
190A-8
190F-8
Miscelaneus - Air superiority fighters
190D-9
Ta-152H-1
overall i think the A-3 and F-3 are goood compromise
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The FW-190A6 is not redundant. The FW-190A6 offers better performance and firepower when compared to the FW-190A5. It is the more common mid-war variant and is handily outperformed by the FW-190A8. People will fly the FW-190A8 simply because it is a better aircraft.
The FW-190A5 could be remodeled to serve as the FW-190F3.
Modeling the FW-190A3 gives us an early FW-190 that can duel sub as a "early mid-war" FW-190A. The differences between the FW-190A3 and FW-190A4 are cosmetic, not airframe, armament, or performance.
All the best,
Crumpp
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"Link doesn't work charge."
Oh, it was just a TA152 H0-H1 handbook on sale on Ebay...
No biggie...
-C+
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Oh, it was just a TA152 H0-H1 handbook on sale on Ebay...
Interesting. You got a good link? We just picked one up from Europe. Very rare piece.
All the best,
Crumpp