Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on December 07, 2005, 02:08:16 PM
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Apparently happened just moments ago, at Miami Int'l Airport.
Edit: sorry about the title, thats how the breaking news came in...
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not sure if it was an accident.
MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A person was shot and wounded on the Jetway to an American Airlines passenger jet that was at the terminal at Miami International Airport, an airline official said.
A federal official told CNN that the passenger was shot by a federal air marshal, who felt the passenger was acting in a threatening manner. A senior administration official added that the passenger claimed to have a bomb in his carry-on luggage.
An air marshal told the passenger to stop, and he did not, the official said, adding that the marshal fired after the passenger reached into his carry-on bag.
The weapon was fired on the Jetway to Flight 924, which was on a stopover in Miami during a flight from Medellin, Colombia, to Orlando, Florida, police said.
The Boeing 757, which can hold about 180 passengers, was due to take off for Orlando at 2:18 p.m. ET.
Footage from the scene showed police cars and what appeared to be SWAT vehicles surrounding the plane. Several officers wielding rifles were running toward and around the plane.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Apparently happened just moments ago, at Miami Int'l Airport.
That's the one thing they've been waiting for to take guns away from them. Without a gun there's nothing an air marshal can do that a mob of scared/angry passengers can't, so they may as well do away with them completely.
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Did he shoot himself in the foot, like that DEA agent did?
I'm sure glad the Myth Busters debunked the shoot a hole in a plane causing everyone to be sucked out thing.
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Sounds like it was a attempted bomber, he's dead.
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Originally posted by Curval
Did he shoot himself in the foot, like that DEA agent did?
I'm sure glad the Myth Busters debunked the shoot a hole in a plane causing everyone to be sucked out thing.
I don't watch the show, but a shot inside an aircraft cannot depressurize it to the point of placing anyone onboard in danger, unless of course they were between the gun and the side of the aircraft...
If you've ever believed it could, you've been hollywoodized.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I don't watch the show, but a shot inside an aircraft cannot depressurize it to the point of placing anyone onboard in danger, unless of course they were between the gun and the side of the aircraft...
yea...but if YOU said it I wouldn't believe it.
;) :p
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Originally posted by Curval
yea...but if YOU said it I wouldn't believe it.
;) :p
Well, I just repeat what Static Test Engineers at Boeing tell me...and they test this scenario. ;)
Besides that, I don't expect someone that doesn't understand firearms to know that pre-fragmented "safety slugs" are designed not to penetrate walls or ricochet from hard surfaces. These bullets are widely available at reasonable prices and are ideal for home defense where you don't want to accidentally shoot a neighbor while defending yourself and your family -- and they are perfect for use on an airplane, by design. Air Marshals use them.
Even if you put a common handgun bullet through the side of an airplane -- pick your caliber, any of them -- it will not depressurize a cabin measurably. And what small amount of leakage would occur could be plugged with any number of things within reach of your seat, including a small portion of the tiny pillows and baby blankets you are given by flight attendants. Even if fired directly into a window. The window it double-paned. It would make a hole, but not shatter.
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CNN.com sez the guy was just wounded, and that he was shot because he acted in a threatening manner, claimed he had a bomb, and reached into his carryon bag after being told to stop/surrender.
Sounds like a case of attempted suicide by cop. Tragic 'cause the cop often ends up having to live with the fact that he shot a mentally disturbed (and sometimes in fact harmless) person.
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CNN, now states the guy died of wounds.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Besides that, I don't expect someone that doesn't understand firearms to know that pre-fragmented "safety slugs" are designed not to penetrate walls or ricochet from hard surfaces.
Now now...be nice...I was just kidding.:)
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Originally posted by Curval
Now now...be nice...I was just kidding.:)
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/stickpoke.gif)
DOH! :furious I meant to post ^^this^^ smilie in there, sorry curval :(
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Originally posted by Maverick
CNN, now states the guy died of wounds.
Fragmenting bullets are not intestinal friendly.
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I feel sorry for the air marshal. I've heard from various cops that justified shoots don't feel much better than mistakes.
I'm sure the passengers who were on that flight are a bit upset too... Senseless suicide.
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Apparently the plane left on schedule, this wasn't aboard the aircraft.
Guess we'll get the whole story later...
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When the good guy with the gun tells you to do something it pays to do what he / she says. Definately do NOT make fast moves into clothing, bag, purse or other object in that situation.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Apparently the plane left on schedule, this wasn't aboard the aircraft.
Guess we'll get the whole story later...
on msnbc.com footage, the plane is still on the ground, and passengers are still on the plane, being taken off 1 at a time. (probable being interrogated)
also, there were 2 air marshalls on the plane supposedly
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Originally posted by Mustaine
on msnbc.com footage, the plane is still on the ground, and passengers are still on the plane, being taken off 1 at a time. (probable being interrogated)
also, there were 2 air marshalls on the plane supposedly
Heh, well I guess I shouldn't listen to "early" reports. ;)
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Originally posted by Curval
I'm sure glad the Myth Busters debunked the shoot a hole in a plane causing everyone to be sucked out thing.
they did a fairly crappy job of it though. sloppy science. the end result would have been similar but their test was flawed.
they took a straight psi difference to run their test (about 8 psi IIRC).
so they take the 14.7 psi of atmosphere and add an additional 8 to make up the difference.
I'm not going to look up the exact figures but if I remember the 8 psi difference correctly, they take 22.7 psi in the plane with a outside of 14.7 and expect that to yield the same result as 6.7 outside and 14.7 inside.
their test had the plane with about 65% more air than the surrounding atmosphere, while in real life the plane would be holding an additional 120%. when dealing with pressure and explosions, it's the ratios that make the difference.
the show is amusing at times ( I enjoyed watching them attach the rockets to the cars)but they don't really prove much on most subjects.
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The significant thing to me is not that this man was shot by an air marshal. He was doing his job. What gets me is, HE WAS ON THE FREAKIN JETWAY TO BOARD THE PLANE, AND CLAIMED HE HAD A BOMB??
HOW THE FREAK DO YOU GET ALL THE WAY TO THE PLANE WITH EXPLOSIVES IN YOUR CARRY ON BAG??
I mean come on, security may still suck in airports, regardless of what they do, but you cant tell me they wouldnt detect a freakin bomb?
As I said, the Marshal did his job. You have to consider every threat a real one until it's proven not to be. If there was even a hint of explosive in that bag though, security is going to get reamed.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The significant thing to me is not that this man was shot by an air marshal. He was doing his job. What gets me is, HE WAS ON THE FREAKIN JETWAY TO BOARD THE PLANE, AND CLAIMED HE HAD A BOMB??
HOW THE FREAK DO YOU GET ALL THE WAY TO THE PLANE WITH EXPLOSIVES IN YOUR CARRY ON BAG??
I mean come on, security may still suck in airports, regardless of what they do, but you cant tell me they wouldnt detect a freakin bomb?
As I said, the Marshal did his job. You have to consider every threat a real one until it's proven not to be. If there was even a hint of explosive in that bag though, security is going to get reamed.
The flight came INTO Miami FROM Bogota.
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From the latest reports I've read, the guy was a nutter and 'no sign of a bomb was found'. Well he paid for his idiocy and I think the air marshall reacted exactly as he was trained to do.
I think that the end anlysis of this will be Darwin's theory in action: if you are stupid enough to bluff yourself in a situation where you might get killed then don't complain (ha ha) if you do get killed.
My only fear is that the propoganda machine of 'anti terrorism' is rewriting the story about some poor idiot who wanted to draw attention to himself and died as a result into: 'Mad nutter sponsored by Al Queda tries to blow up 'plane'.
Curval: do get in touch when you are next here it would be great to see you!
Ripsnort: Good to see that you are fighting the good fight and havn't changed a bit about your news reporting habits!
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Ripsnort: Good to see that you are fighting the good fight and havn't changed a bit about your news reporting habits!
Ravs
:rofl :noid
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The guy looked like a terrorist so the Air marshalls were just doing the right thing
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Sad for the man and his family, but on the brighter side, it shows that we really do have airmarshals armed and protecting these planes.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Sad for the man and his family, but on the brighter side, it shows that we really do have airmarshals armed and protecting these planes.
I
I've been told by a reliable source that its like 1 out of 3 flights flying into and out of, the US...:noid
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Well if he was some saddo who wanted to draw attention to himself and died for it, then that is sad. Having said that the bloke must have been living in a cave if he didn't know he was on a potential summar death sentence for doing what he did.
Well, no more hoaxes from him then.
Ravs
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The significant thing to me is not that this man was shot by an air marshal. He was doing his job. What gets me is, HE WAS ON THE FREAKIN JETWAY TO BOARD THE PLANE, AND CLAIMED HE HAD A BOMB??
HOW THE FREAK DO YOU GET ALL THE WAY TO THE PLANE WITH EXPLOSIVES IN YOUR CARRY ON BAG??
I mean come on, security may still suck in airports, regardless of what they do, but you cant tell me they wouldnt detect a freakin bomb?
As I said, the Marshal did his job. You have to consider every threat a real one until it's proven not to be. If there was even a hint of explosive in that bag though, security is going to get reamed.
So far they're saying there was no bomb; he was bluffing. Sounds like a case of suicide by cop to me.
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Reportedly he was running around flailing his arms indicating that he had a bomb in his bag. His wife said that he had stopped taking his medications.
Which brings me to my next question that I'm almost afraid to ask. Has anybody heard from Airhead?
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No........Airhead is MIA
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Passenger shot dead by U.S. air marshal
Airliner was on the ground at Miami airport at time of incident
Dec. 7, 2005. 04:03 PM
ASSOCIATED PRESS
MIAMI — A passenger who claimed to have a bomb in a carry-on bag was shot dead by a federal air marshal today on a jetway connected to an American Airlines plane that had arrived from Colombia, officials said.
A Homeland Security official confirmed the shot passenger is dead.
A witness said the man frantically ran down the aisle and a woman with him said he was mentally ill.
Homeland Security Department spokesman Brian Doyle said after the plane had parked at the gate, a passenger indicated there was a bomb in the bag. The passenger was confronted by air marshals but ran off the plane, Doyle said.
A team of air marshals pursued and ordered the passenger to get on the ground. The passenger did not comply and was shot when apparently reaching into the bag, Doyle said.
Passenger Mary Gardner told WTVJ in Miami that the man ran down the aisle from the rear of the plane. “He was frantic, his arms flailing in the air,” she said. She said a woman followed, shouting, “My husband! My husband!”
Gardner said she heard the woman say her husband was bipolar and had not had his medication.
The plane, Flight 924, had just arrived from Medellin, Colombia, and was headed on to Orlando.
American Airlines officials confirmed the shooting was on a jetway.
“All I know is that it was on the jet bridge, outside the aircraft,” American spokesman Tim Wagner said.
Flight 924 arrived at Miami airport at 12:16 p.m. EST and was scheduled to depart at 2:18 p.m., Wagner said. He said the shooting happened shortly after 2 p.m., suggesting passengers may have already been preparing to depart for Orlando.
Martin Gonzalez, spokesman for Colombia’s civil aviation agency, said the flight “left normally with no problems.”
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Airhead was banned the first time the Oclub got shut down I thought?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Airhead was banned the first time the Oclub got shut down I thought?
He's been banished to that island with a long beach, no coconuts, and a moderator that likes birds....
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Originally posted by Ripper29
Gardner said she heard the woman say her husband was bipolar and had not had his medication.
It is a tragedy and a real shame his wife couldn't of forseen this type of behavior coming with his bipolar disorder. He must of been delusional LONG before that period and she could of made his medical condition known to the flight attendants and crew as she boarded the plane.
Even worse, people are starting to claim that Marshalls reaction was too aggressive. Shame... it could of been prevented, but the Marshalls did their job and should be praised for doing their job and sending a clear message to those with real intent what awaits them.
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Originally posted by Delirium
It is a tragedy and a real shame his wife couldn't of forseen this type of behavior coming with his bipolar disorder. He must of been delusional LONG before that period and she could of made his medical condition known to the flight attendants and crew as she boarded the plane.
Even worse, people are starting to claim that Marshalls reaction was too aggressive. Shame... it could of been prevented, but the Marshalls did their job and should be praised for doing their job and sending a clear message to those with real intent what awaits them.
From what I heard today the woman was acting just as hystarical as her husband but saying he's bi-polar and didn't take his meds. It is a shame really. I didn't want to say this but I wonder how long it will take some talking head to chalk this up to Bush's failed post 9/11 security policy
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I didn't want to say this but I wonder how long it will take some talking head to chalk this up to Bush's failed post 9/11 security policy
You were the first; congratulations.
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That's not what he said, Staga.
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Originally posted by moot
That's not what he said, Staga.
depend how you quote look :
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Bush's failed post 9/11 security policy
:p
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as long as its in good humor :D
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http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_3288703
...A neighbor of the Alpizars who said he had been asked to watch the couple's home said they had been on a missionary trip to Peru.
Damn musl... hey, wait a minute!
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Originally posted by ravells
Curval: do get in touch when you are next here it would be great to see you!
Hey Ravs...long time no see!
Will do mate. On "pins and needles" waiting to hear if a visa is being sorted out so I can fly to Mumbai on Sunday, but will only be passing through London in transit if that trip goes ahead.
The next real trip to the UK should be next spring or summer.
Will definately get in touch.
Whats your e-mail addy? Send it to me at: mrwolf_riaz@yahoo dot com when you get a chance.
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saint... are you saying that this is another case of a missionary or christian zealot not bombing anyone?
I am not a fan of the so called safety slugs (glasser etc.) they are often fatal but have a spoty rep for "stopping".... unless you are just a hit man, you want to stop more than to kill.
We will have to see how this one plays out. Too early for me.
I recal the brit incident with the backpack "bomber".
lazs
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There are witnesses corroberating that he was acting the looney. If you ask me they should've shot him before he got his hand in the bag with his fantasy bomb. Good thing it wasn't a real bomb.
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Originally posted by Curval
Hey Ravs...long time no see!
Will do mate. On "pins and needles" waiting to hear if a visa is being sorted out so I can fly to Mumbai on Sunday, but will only be passing through London in transit if that trip goes ahead.
The next real trip to the UK should be next spring or summer.
Will definately get in touch.
Whats your e-mail addy? Send it to me at: mrwolf_riaz@yahoo dot com when you get a chance.
Hey Curv,
I'm planning a trip to Mumbai for the Feb or so time frame.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Hey Curv,
I'm planning a trip to Mumbai for the Feb or so time frame.
Been there before? I AM going now.
E-mail me.
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The flight came INTO Miami FROM Bogota.
According to the eyewitness reports from passengers, and the news this morning, they were BOARDING the plane when this happened. This man was one of the last to board the plane.
From what I heard today the woman was acting just as hystarical as her husband but saying he's bi-polar and didn't take his meds. It is a shame really.
Not only was she acting hysterical too, she admitted she forced him to get on the airplane, against his protests that he did not want to board a plane and knowing he was not on his meds. She could have possibly prevented this by approaching someone in the flight crew in advance and letting them know he was being difficult and why. Instead, because she was embarassed, she kept her mouth shut until it was too late.
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the woman was acting just as hystarical as her husband
aah this explains everthing, thats the usual Terrorist-acting!
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Hmm. If she sues the airline or govt for the shooting, I wonder if they'll sue her back for violating the airline rules about bringing people with medical problems onboard the plane.
My wife almost couldn't board a plane after minor outpatient surgery because she made the mistake of asking a crewmember for assistance with her bag, so I'm fairly sure that the airline will fight back if sued 'cause bringing someone like that onboard without some documentation goes directly against their rules.
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There's always more to the story. I doubt we've heard all the ins and outs of this one yet.
As for security screening, did he get screened in Columbia? Then, after clearing customs in Miami was he re-screened after exiting Customs before being allowed back into the domestic terminal area for the flight to Orlando? I don't remember the arrangements at MIA but at ATL you could come right out of customs and reboard a domestic flight without going through security again. This because you remain in a "secure" area the entire time.
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Doesn't really matter since he would have passed the security screen anyway as he wasn't carrying anything.
As for suing the airline...that's an interesting question, eagl. The regime for international travel by air is the Warsaw Convention (as amended) in which the airline is automatically liable for any accident which occurs during the course of carriage (I'm abbreviating here for brevity)....question is whether this guy was shot during the course of carriage..most of the case law says that it begins at checkin and you are still 'in the course of carriage' until you have your luggage and leave. Somehow I don't think there will be a court action about this one, but this won't be an 'accident' so automatic liability won't kick in, although if there is a claim you can bet your bottom dollar it will be brought in Texas even if the passenger had nothing to do with the place becase that's where you get the highest damages, the maddest judges and juries and they have something against UK insurers or reinsurance market which are the people who will ultimately pay.
it will be an interesting case if brought...watch this space!
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There's a huge legal difference between on the airplane itself and "in the jetway".
If he had been KNOWN to have cleared security in MIA, his "I have a bomb in my backpack" statements (if he said that) might be viewed in a different light. Perhaps not though; I never got briefed on the Air Marshal ROE.
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Maybe a huge legal difference if you're talking about criminal and civil liabilties. I was talking about civil liability - I have no idea where an air marshall's jurisdiction to shoot to kill begins and ends although I would have thought it would have to be on the aircraft as on the ground you have civil forces in command.
Ravs
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Like I said, I don't know the Air Marshal ROE but I be suprised if they were restricted from acting anywhere on airport property.
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what a nut