Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on December 07, 2005, 06:20:55 PM
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Ok so I was reading this:
A football fan in the UK has been told that a St. Georges flag with the words "Born in England Live in England Die in England" is racist and will not be allowed at future games, according to the Manchester Evening News.
The manager of the Brentford football club, Martin Allen, called the flag racially offensive to the several black players in his club.
"It made it a difficult afternoon," Allen said. "If we see it again at our ground I will find the person responsible and burn it in front of him. There is no room for it in society or in football."
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/190/190116_racism_row_over_fans_flag.html
SO I'm really curious what is racist about this flag:
(http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ContentResources/851.$plit/C_17_Articles_190116_BodyWeb_Detail_2_Image.jpg) Born in England Live in England Die in England"
Keep in mind I'm not trolling here I'm just ignorant of the history or of the situation.
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OK, I'm English and not white so I feel somewhat qualified to answer.
For many years the flag of St George has been hijacked by the far right ( for which read racist parties who wanted to boot people like me out of the UK)...until about 4 years ago at the football (soccer to you) world cup when it was regained by normal people and flying everywhere for the right reasons.
The words 'Born in England' on the offending flag you mention imply that people who are not born in England (like me) are somehow not English. I think that was the intention of the person who had the flag. I consider myself English (although my skin is brown) and I would gladly and proudly fight and die for this, my country. The subtext of the message to me is that only if you are born here can you be British (or English if you like). I agree with Martin Allen, there is no room for people who want to subvert my country's flag to their racist ends.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
OK, I'm English and not white so I feel somewhat qualified to answer.
For many years the flag of St George has been hijacked by the far right ( for which read racist parties who wanted to boot people like me out of the UK)...until about 4 years ago at the football (soccer to you) world cup when it was regained by normal people and flying everywhere for the right reasons.
The words 'Born in England' on the offending flag you mention imply that people who are not born in England (like me) are somehow not English. I think that was the intention of the person who had the flag. I consider myself English (although my skin is brown) and I would gladly and proudly fight and die for this, my country. The subtext of the message to me is that only if you are born here can you be British (or English if you like). I agree with Martin Allen, there is no room for people who want to subvert my country's flag to their racist ends.
Ravs
Thanks Rav......But do I understand you correctly when you say the flag itself is OK but not the writing on it?
(wich I can understand were your coming from) Over here it's kinda that way with the Confederate flag. Many fly it proudly to display their southern heritage and roots who are not at all racist, But the flag has been come to be an example of the roots of slavery and prejudice.
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Yes! it was an underhanded way of saying (to me) if you are not born here you have no place being here.
But it's more complicated than that, the cross of St George until very recently has been the province of quite racist people and (ironically) it has been football which has reversed that.
You have to have lived here to understand the nuances, but I think that Martin Allen called it right on this occasion.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Yes! it was an underhanded way of saying (to me) if you are not born here you have no place being here.
But it's more complicated than that, the cross of St George until very recently has been the province of quite racist people and (ironically) it has been football which has reversed that.
You have to have lived here to understand the nuances, but I think that Martin Allen called it right on this occasion.
Ravs
Thanks!
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Because someone else was born elsewhere, a person cant be proud of being born English?
dago
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Kind of a reversal of Native Americans taking offense to the "tomahawk Chop".
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This is nuts.
Frankly, saying that the English flag and the words 'born in England' is racist is absolute bollocks.
If you're English then no matter where you were born it's your flag to.
And what about anyone non-caucasian who was born in England? I know plenty and count many as friends. The comment 'born in England' applies to them as well, right? Therefore how can it be a racist comment?
Sure, ok, the flag was and is used as the main symbol certain nationalist organisations but likening it to the Confederate flag is daft, it's the flag of a country, it's flown over Buckingham palace and if any Euro-Liberal-politcally-correct numbnuts tries to tell me I can't fly my country's flag cos it's racist (apparently) then he's gonna get a mouthful of abuse and told to sod off back to Brussels.
I was born in England and I'm proud to be British, does that make me a racist?
[imagine the old rolleyes smilie]
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/48257/20029211530-0-Swoop.gif)
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The PC cops RULE the world, be verrrrry careful....:noid
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Swoop my comparison was just based on my ignorance and the fact that one symbol of good meaning can be hijacked to mean another.
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I think it is absolute BS and that the person should be able to take pride in the fact that they were born, live in and will die in this country.
The Scottish have a national identity created for them which they take pride in, the Welsh have a national identity which they take pride in, Irish = pride, English pride = racist.
PC BS
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Originally posted by ravells
Yes! it was an underhanded way of saying (to me) if you are not born here you have no place being here.
So if you were an American (but not born there) would you cry about the Bruce Springsteen album 'Born in the USA'?
The whole situation is just ridiculous.
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Originally posted by Swoop
T...if any Euro-Liberal-politcally-correct numbnuts tries to tell me I can't fly my country's flag cos it's racist (apparently) then he's gonna get a mouthful of abuse and told to sod off back to Brussels...
Are you insinuating that people living in Brussels are numbnuts, mister?:mad:
;) :p
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He is, and I second that :D
PS: You didn't live in Brussels when we met... did you move?
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Swoop seems to have explained it... to me anyway... How can it be racist if it applies to all races equally? A black man born in england could use that flag and motto just as easily.
PC crap looks like to me.
lazs
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Well in a sence its almost good to see these type of racial issues exist on the other side of the pond too.
Far as Im concerned anyone has the absolute right to like, or dislike anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose. So long as they do not act out to harm the person or group they decide they do not like.
Sorry but you being "offended" does not qualify as bringing harm to you.
There is always going to be discrimination in one form or another for one reason or another. Some people may not like people of a specific race or religeon,(Being Muslam seems to be in todays top ten list) because they had a beard, or long hair or because of the way they dress or any of a million other reasons.
You cant legislate thought. Nor should it be tried.
Just as everyone has the right to be stupid, everyone has the right to be racist.
Its how you act out on your feelings that is the difference.
And displaying a flag does not qualify as acting out in a harmful way.
But its a damn shame that PC and racial/cultural oversensitivity only thrives in the places in the world that need it least. Instead of the places that need it most. Like say for example the middle east.
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Hi there Swoop, Furball & Dreid!
I think that it's a question of context and my last post was posted after more than a few glasses of the el vino, so let me try to explain:
The meanings of words and symbols depends upon the context in which they appear. So, if, for example I was collecting bodies in 1666 and was carrying a sign saying 'Black Death' it would mean one thing. If I were at a BNP (a far right political group) rally carrying the same sign, it might mean something else entirely.
We also know that the BNP constantly try to blur the line between patriotism and xenophobia.
Football in this country has long been the province of racism (that is widely known). I've been to matches where I've been abused, I ran into a group of Millwall fans at Paddington station when I was 15 in the early 80s - and it was a very frightening experience. I think that if the police hadn't flooded the station 10 minutes later, the chances of my getting out alive or in one piece were pretty debatable.
Football clubs have made it their mission to wipe racism out of the stands and they are succeeding.
I made an assumption that Martin Allen (whom by all accounts is a sensible sort of chap) saw the context in which the words on the flag were displayed and read that context as someone who was trying to get around the tough anti racist rules that are now enforced against football supporters. Of course if the flag had just read 'Wogs out' or similar then the flag would have been confiscated on the spot. So I think in this case, the supporter was probably trying to get his message through in a more subtle way. It is interesting that you just don't see flags like that at Rugby matches.
I'm very anti-pc, particuarly about what I call 'inverse racism' where I find my white friends unjustifiably bending over backwards to accomadate plainly ridiculous minority sensitivities. I do not like the fact that when we are in other countries we are expected to comply with their strictures but for some reason in our own country we are often expected to comply with strictures of minorities who frankly shouldn't be here if their intention is to create a 'little India / China etc etc.
If my assumption is right in this case, then I think Martin Allen called it right.
Ravs
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Ok I did some research.
A typical crowd at an England game:
(http://img1.travelblog.org/Photos/4524/11940/f/50335-Amazing-atmosphere-0.jpg)
The flag in question:
(http://img1.travelblog.org/Photos/4524/11940/f/50332-Born-in-England-Live-in-England-Die-in-England-0.jpg)
M.U.F.C. stands for Manchester United Football Club for anyone that doesnt know.
What 'White Moss' means.....I have no idea.
What does White Moss mean?
Seriously.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/48257/20029211530-0-Swoop.gif)
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My guess is White Mossside. Mosside is a suburb in Manchester which is fairly horrific for crime and has a large black community.
My brother went to UMIST and not to rub it in, one of his mates from Ghana was in Mosside and beaten nearly to death by people weilding iron bars. His recovery was amazing. The irony was that he went back to Ghana and died in a car accident two years later.
Ravs
p.s. I meant English flags with barely concealed racist messages written on them.
Swoop do you know where that picture was taken? It almost looks like a town hall and those people were demonstrating or something...not sure.
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White Moss is a road/area in Manchester
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Ah right.
Well there you are then, the racist part is the comment about Mosside, nothing to do with the born in England bit.
And that I agree with.
Edit: Er....not that Mosside should be white, that it's a racist comment written on a flag.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/48257/20029211530-0-Swoop.gif)
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Good! So we can all get together for a drink When Curval comes here in the spring!
Yay!
Ravs
Context man...context!
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Originally posted by ravells
Swoop do you know where that picture was taken? It almost looks like a town hall and those people were demonstrating or something...not sure.
nah it was in Chicago at an England v USA friendly.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/48257/20029211530-0-Swoop.gif)
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Wasn't Moss Side home to Manchester City? And therefore unlikely to appear on a Man U flag?
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I think the majority Nash but by no means everyone in Moss Side. (My bro was/is a City supporter).
All I can remember was that when we went to see City play Liverpool, even in Moss Side, where my bro lived there were a few United scarves dotted about. I've got friends in Manchester who can confirm but it's too much work for a bbs post :)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Wasn't Moss Side home to Manchester City? And therefore unlikely to appear on a Man U flag?
I thought all true Man U fans come from Brentford or Singapore...
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Originally posted by ravells
horrific for crime and has a large black community.
Redundant.
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^^ avacado
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Originally posted by Saintaw
^^ avacado
You think untrue or do you just cringe at the sight of someone who dares say something un-PC?
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Just an observation. In order to be "proud" these days, one has to be in someway affiliated with a certified victim community. It is acceptable, for instance, to be a proud Scot, a Proud Welshman, or a Proud Irishman, because all of those nations were at some point either conquered and/or ruled from Westminster. It is far less acceptable to be a "proud Englishman" because one is still associated with the rulers/oppressors/victimizers. The implication is that one has nothing to be proud of, instead one should feel only shame and quite possibly be willing to pay reparations or make ammends for the misdeeds of one's ancestors.
There are certain limitations on this principle, however.
The oppression that you and your ancestors suffered from must be fairly recent, and if at all possible have ongoing social effects. Pointing out that the Romans conquered and enslaved the ancient inhabitants of Southern Britain does not qualify one for victim status. Additionally, the pride you may comfortably manifest is sometimes tied to the perceived economic success of your community since the time of oppression. Too much success will begin to disqualify you from being "proud" - in fact if you are perceived to be a member of the overclass such pride is assumed to be simply snobbery or exclusivism. For instance, the economic success of the Chinese and Koreans in America since their days of being oppressed coolies has effectively meant they may no longer reap many of the economic and social benefits of victim status. In fact, Koreans in particular, while they are historically an oppressed people, are often regarded to be economic victimizers themselves. As such, if they clan together, errect structures that only benefit their own community, or segregate themselves and so on, it is not pride, but racism.
The only possible exception to economic success nullifying victim status is provided by the Gay community, which is allowed to feel pride despite their being the most economically successful "minority" in most Western cultures and being overwhelmingly made up of individuals from the historic "victimizer" rather than "victimized" racial groups.
In any event, for Englishmen to be able to get away with feeling "proud", then they will need to get cracking on being conquered and either colonized or enslaved and treated as second or third class citizens in their own country. A failure to economically thrive following this period will also go a long way.
Personally, call me crazy, but I'd much rather we all dropped the who gets to fell proud and who doesn't thing, and rediscovered the lost virtue of humility.
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What Seagoon said....
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Seagoon, can you briefly say why one couldn't be proud and humble at once?
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Well, at first I didn't see a problem with the flag. The way you guys talked about it was nothing to even be remotely worried about.
But seeing the actual flag is completely different.
I believe that this is akin to (please don't ban me) a Confederate flag that had "White South" written on it. Definately not kosher.
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sooo... free speech is out of fashion?
Is there some kind of guide you can buy that tells you what you can or can't say or do you just take a chance and hope for the best?
lazs