Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fishu on December 08, 2005, 10:17:09 PM
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http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/12/08/chicago.airplane/index.html
CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) -- A Southwest Airlines jet slid off the runway during a heavy snowstorm at Chicago's Midway Airport and crashed into two vehicles in a nearby intersection, killing a young boy, on Thursday night.
Flight 1248, which was arriving from Baltimore, Maryland, slid through a fence separating the runway from the intersection, said Wendy Abrams, a spokeswoman for Chicago's Department of Aviation.
The boy, who was about 8, was with his two younger brothers -- including an infant -- and his parents, said Deborah Song, a spokeswoman for Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oaklawn, where the family was transported.
The mother and father were in serious condition, Song said, and the middle son, about 3 years old, was in fair condition. There was no information on the infant.
"We're not sure if they came from one vehicle or multiple vehicles that were struck," she said.
Chicago Fire Department Commissioner Cortez Trotter said he hadn't spoken to hospital officials, but to his knowledge, there were 12 people taken to area hospitals. ( Watch as Trotter explains the injuries -- 2:29)
The plane struck two cars, Trotter said. One was wedged under a wing, and the other was crumpled at the nose of the plane, he said.
Five occupants of one of the cars were in serious condition -- one of those critical -- and four in another car were in serious but stable condition, he said. Also, three people on the plane suffered minor injuries and were taken to the hospital.
There was no definitive cause given for the accident, but Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Laura Brown said the plane's nose gear collapsed. ( Watch footage from the scene -- 1:33)
Amanda Doherty lives near the airport and said she went to the scene shortly after the crash and saw a car pinned under the airplane with its headlights still on. ( Watch witness account -- :27)
A bartender at a pub down the street from the accident said he heard two loud booms when the plane crashed into the intersection.
"We thought it was an automobile accident and we looked out the window and we saw the tail section of a Southwest airliner laying across the street, on Central Avenue," said Tom Fitzgerald, adding that he saw passengers exiting the rear of the plane. "People were running and ambulances were coming down the street."
The Boeing 737 was carrying 98 passengers and five crew members. It left Baltimore-Washington International Airport about 5 p.m. ET and landed shortly after 8 p.m. ET.
Stanley Den, who was on the plane, said he noticed the plane wasn't slowing down during the landing.
"I couldn't really tell if we were on the runway or the grass. It was really bumpy," Den said. "We were kind of going for a while until the impact when we hit, maybe I guess, a barrier fence, went through that and into the middle of the street with cars and stuff riding past us."
It had been snowing all day in Chicago and visibility was poor at the time of the landing. The National Weather Service had issued a heavy snow warning in the city and surrounding area, saying that 6 to 9 inches of new snow could accumulate before midnight -- at a rate of 2 inches per hour.
There were approximately 8 inches of snow on the ground by early evening, and winds were blowing at between 13 mph and 18 mph.
The pilot of the plane was a 10-year Southwest veteran, and the first officer had been with the company more than 2 years, said Southwest CEO Gary Kelly. To his knowledge, the plane had been properly cleared to land on the 6,500-foot runway, he said.
Video from the scene showed at least 10 ambulances at the scene and dozens of fire trucks and other emergency vehicles converging on the intersection. The plane's fuselage was bent and its nose was on the ground.
Midway, which lies in a dense residential and commercial district of the city, west of downtown, was closed almost immediately and was not set to reopen until early Friday morning, the FAA said.
The National Transportation Safety Board was investigating the crash. Commissioner Trotter said the plane would remain in the intersection until the NTSB finished its investigation.
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I sure hope this turns into an Airbus versus Boeing "debate"!
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It could turn into a debate about landing a Boeing or a Bus on a ~6500 foot runway in a wicked snowstorm.
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(http://www.micom.net/oops/Fill-er-up2.jpg)
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If it ain't Boeing, I ain't...
wait... what are we supposed to say in this situation? I misplaced my script.
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A young boy died in a car that the plane hit.
CNN says "about 8 year old", BBC "6 year old" and a finnish TV news "10 year old".
Updated the first post with the newer article.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't...
wait... what are we supposed to say in this situation? I misplaced my script.
"If it's snowing, I ain't ****ing going."
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I still remember the first time I hopped in the turboprop at MSP on my way to EAU to visit the folks for Christmas and having to wait while the plane got sweetheartd with goo just so it could take off and function in the air. That made me feel good. :confused:
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notice how most of the boeings that augered in this year were flying out of former french colonies......:noid
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If this plane was an Airbus instead of a Boeing-737, it wouldn't have slid off the runway in Chicago. It would have slid off in Toronto.
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Cut the Boeing vs. Airbus crap already, theres an active thread for it and this is not it.
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I'm just waiting for someone to blame it on Kerry.
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O'hare was already shut down for a while (4pm central), and Milwaukee was getting all kinds of diversions as a result. Not sure why Midway was open while ORD closed. I just put in 20hrs... **** snow. :(
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Rip will be here in any minute with his famous "If it's not Boeing I'm not going" slogan even if the frigging Tupolevs have been more safer this year... LOL
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Deleted.
16- All posts, in public forums, should be made in the English language.
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Fishu you are being hypocritical. You start a thread thats says
"southwest BOEING slides off runway at midway"
and pretend that you are somehow not being prejudiced, especially when viewed in context of your years long euro socialist anti american slant....
and you are critical of Rip??? :aok
PS: Boeing wrote the book, airbus just ripped out the pages on style, accomodation, weight, aerodynamics....composit fiber, fuel efficiency...passenger comfort etc etc etc etc.....
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In Finland 5cm (2") of snow per hour isnīt that bad, we just put our snowblowers on the runway between flights.. no problemo.
Probably friction coefficient wasnīt good enough--->stopping pretty much undoable without heavy use of reverse, and it eats lots of rwy.Were there crosswind?
We had one MD80 last year which used 2400m of 2500m rwy to stop. We heard about that from pilot on freq. later on. He was pretty pissed..
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Originally posted by SOB
I sure hope this turns into an Airbus versus Boeing "debate"!
ROFL SOB! You stole my thunder... (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/xmas.gif)
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Originally posted by Yeager
Fishu you are being hypocritical. You start a thread thats says
"southwest BOEING slides off runway at midway"
...and because I mentioned Southwest, I must have something against the company.
When an accident happens in the aviation, there is few things I like to know: 1. what happened, 2. where, 3. what airline, 4. what plane.
It could been just as well an Airbus, Bombadier, Cessna... but the layout would be the same.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
If this plane was an Airbus instead of a Boeing-737, it wouldn't have slid off the runway in Chicago. It would have slid off in Toronto.
:rofl
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A few years back a SouthWest airlines jet skidded off the end of a runway. The plane went through a fence, crossed a road, hit two cars and missed a gas station by about 50 foot. The pictures of the accident almost looked like the jet was trying to refuel at the gas station.
I Can't remember if it was at Midway or Burbank but the accident was very similar to this one.
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Midway is a scary place ..period. It seems like a postage stamp of runway in the middle of a housing tract. Weird how close the city is to the airport. I always marveled that this kind of thing didn't happen more often.
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Daly will close this airport too. They could build a nice big park on the land there. I wonder how long it will be before he claims Midway is a terrorist threat location.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Midway is a scary place ..period. It seems like a postage stamp of runway in the middle of a housing tract. Weird how close the city is to the airport. I always marveled that this kind of thing didn't happen more often.
Just saw aerial pics of the field and you said it! Its an accident waiting to happen with such close proximity of housing. Imagine large aircraft , fully loaded with fuel, just loses engine or two after V1. There would be huge bonfire..
Do they get many noise complaints? :D (usually they come from residents which have just moved in and they forgot to check map...)
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Originally posted by Krusher
I Can't remember if it was at Midway or Burbank but the accident was very similar to this one.
Burbank.
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Just posting this visual aide.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.785972,-87.752416&spn=0.015,0.025&t=h
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Southwest should not be held responsible for the incident becuase it was a weather related incident.O'hare was closed at the time so why wasn't midway.
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Interesting how the FAA mandated that every airport by 2010 needs an extra 1000 feet for overrun. I'll see what happens when Daley comes in and demo's 3 city blocks for the runway just like Meigs. Fk'n ****bag mayor needs a bullet.
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Southwest should not be held responsible for the incident becuase it was a weather related incident.O'hare was closed at the time so why wasn't midway.
So...I land my jet long, don't bother deploying TRs and mow down an airport fence. In the process I plaster 27 people at a preschool fund raising bake sale and the wreckage winds up burning which causes a church to catch on fire.
I and my passengers are alive and escape the wreckage before it bursts into flames.
The catch is...it's a blizzard outside with poor braking action on the runway...or just for fun we might call it 'None'
I as PIC decide to land anyway since I'm absolved from all liability because any incident I might encounter will be weather related?
Riiiight...
I'll tell that to the families of the people I mowed down, the parishioners of the church I set ablaze and the insurance company who will gladly keep me insured on the replacement jet they'll provide my company.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Interesting how the FAA mandated that every airport by 2010 needs an extra 1000 feet for overrun. I'll see what happens when Daley comes in and demo's 3 city blocks for the runway just like Meigs. Fk'n ****bag mayor needs a bullet.
Wouldn't the best idea then for Midway or somewhere of the like be to 'remeasure' the runway. 13C would then have 5500 feet usable for takeoff and landing. Same coming the other way. There would still be 6500 feet of pavement, but as far as what's 'allowed' and published in the AFD is reduced. You wouldn't need to chop 1000 feet off of each end either. No displaced thresholds or anything...well...reverse displacement. Never heard of it but doesn't mean it couldn't work. I need to break out the AIM and figure out how the hell you'd mark that.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Southwest should not be held responsible for the incident becuase it was a weather related incident.O'hare was closed at the time so why wasn't midway.
It is up to the pilot to make the call whether to land or not and usually airlines do have some guidelines to it.
If captain makes a mistake on a flight, it's up to the airline to compensate for damages.
I suspect that this was a human error, where the captain made the wrong decision to land in crappy weather and blew the attempt.
Theres a chance the captain stretched the rules too - landing in a weather in which he shouldn't have by the book, but thought he'd make it.
6500ft is quite short for 737-700, even more so with bad traction.
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It's worth noting that 2 other Southwest flights landed within the 13 minutes prior to this one having an unsuccessful attempt.
They also found the runway in the watermelon Wx. I'm curious to see what the NTSB finds happened but I wouldn't rule out a mechanical error or malfunction of some kind.
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Of interest, the runway has a displaced threshold, and considering that the ILS brings the plane down halfway along the runway, no huge surprise that something like this could happen in ice. Must have been coming in at the minimums, like, for sure. What's a zero vis landing called again, an alpha approach?
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Any word on why the SW 737 was cleared to land with a tailwind?
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Ok,
Just a show of hands - who, besides myself and like 3 people on this board have flown into MDW as PIC on a weekly basis in all seasons?
Lets see how the investigation goes.
Wolf
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Not in Wx like that. I'd do it if I could land a Meigs, though. :cry
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Ok,
Just a show of hands - who, besides myself and like 3 people on this board have flown into MDW as PIC on a weekly basis in all seasons?
Lets see how the investigation goes.
Wolf
Nah, we'll have lost interest by then.
Lets armchair quarterback it now!
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This could not have happened at a worse time for Southwest. They are in a huge battle to have the Wright Amendment repealed allowing nationwide flights from Love Field. Love is an innercity location very similar to Midway.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Southwest should not be held responsible for the incident becuase it was a weather related incident.O'hare was closed at the time so why wasn't midway.
What? It wasnt a Southwest decision to land on a short runway in bad weather?
They only close an airport so they can plow the runway, once it is plowed, it is reopened.
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Originally posted by Debonair
Any word on why the SW 737 was cleared to land with a tailwind?
They can give a pilot any type of landing clearance, it's his decision to accept it and he knew the winds.
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This accident could have been alot worse. The fence is not a chain link fence as most people would think. It's up-rights are like steel I-Beams and the material in between are sheets of metal about 10+ feet high. They were lucky that the fence didn't rupture the fuel tanks and ignite.
Midway is probably the busiest airport for it's size, 1 square mile! There's no room for expansion tho, unless you move or remove some major streets and railways.
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Originally posted by MotleyCH
This accident could have been alot worse. The fence is not a chain link fence as most people would think. It's up-rights are like steel I-Beams and the material in between are sheets of metal about 10+ feet high. They were lucky that the fence didn't rupture the fuel tanks and ignite.
That doesn't really make much of a difference for the bigger aircraft
The wing structure can easily bend those over - if it couldn't take such force, it would've already broke up in the air due to air resistance and flexing.
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Originally posted by Debonair
Any word on why the SW 737 was cleared to land with a tailwind?
Overlooked this post first time through...
My home airport has Rwy 4/22 with an ILS only to 4. There's been more than a few days that Wx is below circling minimums and your only choice is to land downwind if you want to land there at all.
It's surprising how much runway a Mooney uses when you've got a 15kt tailwind :O
First time I saw a downwind landing was a Burke Lakefront in Cleveland. I'd just flown in that night and circled to land on 6R after an ILS approach to 24R with about a mile visibility in mist.
In behind me came a G-V (with I'm sure it's fancy schmansy HUD and EVS) and they landed downwind and used about half the runway anyway. Wind's wern't that strong just a little more than 5kts but it was pretty nifty to see the landing lights emerge from the murk and then land.
C-130s at Mansfield provide my favorite light display for low night IFR approaches.
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Did the tower inform the SWA pilots of the harsh runway conditions or the heavy winds?
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Did the tower inform the SWA pilots of the harsh runway conditions or the heavy winds?
It's a wonder if a 737-700 pilot doesn't have any idea of the runway condition through ACARS.
Better yet... ATIS.
I'm quite sure they've had a pretty clear idea of the conditions, but captain was probably in a hurry or otherwise overly confident.
Would be interesting to know if the touchdown was late - like with the overrun & burned airbus.
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They would have received braking action reports from either the tower or the two company jets that landed in the previous 13 minutes. They knew what was going on and what they were getting in to.
They felt comfortable enough to do it and not go missed, go around or reject the landing. If something did go wrong on the landing rollout and they were slow to the point that a reject landing was impossible...they made the right decision in staying on the runway.
It's just too sad a young boy is going to miss christmas.
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Heard a report that the crew said the thrust reversers didn't function.
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Originally posted by Fishu
It's a wonder if a 737-700 pilot doesn't have any idea of the runway condition through ACARS.
Better yet... ATIS.
I'd bet Raider ( and most of the board) doesn't know what either of those things are.
Aircraft Communicaion And Reporting System is a system which provides the crew with information in the cockpit and is a link to the world including Southwest Dispatchers. Dispatchers do tons of legwork behind the scenes and it's their job to maintain situation and operational awareness regarding the flights.
Automatic Terminal Information Service is a radio broadcast used at many towered airports to give general airport information including weather, approaches in use and any special information regarding the airport such as braking action, taxiway closures and the like.
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I've flown on SWA a lot into chicago in past in the holiday season during all kinds of weather and chances are that the pilot that involved in the incident was piloting my plane so it couldn't have ben pilot error
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
I've flown on SWA a lot into chicago in past in the holiday season during all kinds of weather and chances are that the pilot that involved in the incident was piloting my plane so it couldn't have ben pilot error
Trolling is against the rules.
Here's your hook back...next time try using bait.
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:huh I didn't troll
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it wasn't pilot error:)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-10-midway-crash_x.htm
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That's what the pilots say...
It may be too soon in the investigative process for any difinative conclusion... or maybe... yeah what the hell, let's just jump to one.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
I've flown on SWA a lot into chicago in past in the holiday season during all kinds of weather and chances are that the pilot that involved in the incident was piloting my plane so it couldn't have ben pilot error
There's an even greater chance that you have no idea of how the airline pilot line of time monthly bid process changes a pilot's schedule from month to month and day to day.
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well they sometimes let me sit in the cockpit from t/o to landing and I've seen the same pilot 40% of the time
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I smell pwnage in the making. Standing by.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
well they sometimes let me sit in the cockpit from t/o to landing and I've seen the same pilot 40% of the time
So which carrier do you fly for and where are you based?
Are you Frank Abagnale Jr?
Eh hell with it here is my reply:
"No you don't."
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I fly privately
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Interesting. You charter a SWA 737 to yourself? How'd you get jumpseat bennies?
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Unless you fly for a Part 121 carrier - you can't be in the cockpit - PERIOD. Who do you work for that has a 121 carrier flag and allows you to jump seat?
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Unless you fly for a Part 121 carrier - you can't be in the cockpit - PERIOD. Who do you work for that has a 121 carrier flag and allows you to jump seat?
OTOH I've got a buddy at AirNet Express that's jumpseated on SWA and rode in the front office. Said he did it one time just in conversation. Every other time he rides in the back and is happy to do it. They're 135 and reciprocate with agreements.
But more importantly Wolf...Raider, a private flyer, is going to enlighten us on how he has obtained jumpseat bennies so I'd listen up if I were you.
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when I said I fly privately I ment I own a Cessna and when I said I sometimes ride in the cockpit pilots are usually friendly to aviation enthuasist when they have camcorders
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So you jumpseat SWA riding the impact end with a camcorder and no airline ID?
Do tell your secrets!
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rideing in the cockpit with camcorder isn't that much of a secret
http://flightlevel350.com/search_videos.php?category=cockpit&page=1
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The authors of those videos are not general citizens. They're all airline pilots. Some are off duty jumpseating to/from home. The only exceptions are privately owned airplanes flown in 91/135 ops. SWA operates as a part 121 air carrier offering a scheduled service and according to law, rules, good sense and even astrology...
You need to be employed by an air carrier approved for jumpseat benefits with that particular airline (usually easy if the company you work for reciprocates and allows other pilots to travel either positive space, nonrev or jumpseat)
You've somehow circumnavigated those barriers and I'd like to know how. It would save my customers a boatload if I'm ferrying an airplane for them and they need to buy me a one way fare at the ticket counter. Instead I could just say the magic word, do the secret handshake and voila...jumpseat is mine.
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My bro works for SWA
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Oh well that changes things. Sorry to have pestered you.
Have any cool videos from the flight deck of a SWA 73? I can edit them and put them to music for ya.
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Must be tough to fly for SWA. It's first come, first serve in the flight deck, and fat pilots get half pay I hear.
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Look for me on the news when I stroll into the left seat next time I fly SWA and tell the captain "On your feet, lose your seat."
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hmmm..I was under the impression that the "14" at the end of "raider" denoted his age, in years.....and now I find out he owns a cessna.....
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You can also tell he's short. Big guys fly Piper.
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I think you're required to file IFR if you lower a Skyhawk's seat to it's lowest position.
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50% of trips I make I ride jumpseat. Its nice to chat with pilots and watch they doing their work. Airbuses, MDs, ATR72, Saab 320. Have to try out 757 sometimes too.
And I get in because of my job. ;)
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Great thread, very entertaining?
Did I ever tell you guys about the time I rode jumpseat on the Space Shuttle?
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RAIDER14 = Straiga?
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
it wasn't pilot error:)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-10-midway-crash_x.htm
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion...the 737 can stop in 4,500 feet without thrusters and the NTSB has not cleared the pilots yet...anyway, it seems the jury is still out.
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Riding jumpseat without actually jumping is like going to a strip club to read a book.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Riding jumpseat without actually jumping is like going to a strip club to read a book.
Or reading recipes in a Better Homes and Garden magazine when you're on a diet...:D
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Burbank.
well I guess it was not snow related then :)