Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Blixen on December 11, 2005, 11:43:25 AM
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2 planes hit 2 planes go down simple....................... ............................. .....
tired of la5`s and 7`s hoing ramming and flying away
after all thier mostly wood arent they?
how can la5 ram p38 sustain little damage and still be combat worthy?
watched 1 today ram me after hoing sustain an oil leak and killed another con in combat manuever? i call BS
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Ram model is not broken. As a matter of fact, it's perfect the way it is right now.
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It's not them, it's you. Just quit running into them.
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How come its never understood that theres two realities with four planes. You ramming him doesnt mean he even came close to your plane....
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The ram model works great for MA, maybe it will be more realistic for TOD. Im an advocate for both crashing too.
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If both actually do hit, there IS damage to both planes. Think about that, and the clue from Schatzi. Are you more in favor of being victim to a ram when you were clearly 200 yds away?
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the ram model is totally bogus, both planes should die, no one should get a kill for it.
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Blixen, don't ho him in the first place you dumb ass, simple.......... :furious
But I do agree, when I get clipped in dog fights or yes A ho (only when im tired of so called pilots running from me of course) I have been taken out & seen the other pilot limp home & it has been the other way around too. But it may be working just fine, I mean you need to take in account all the factors speed, angle, weight, surface area etc etc etc.
P.S If you see A car crash (safe ones of course), they will both be fcuked & don't give me all that SUV crap, unless your raming bombers then you can use that one. :rofl
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How do collisions work in Aces High? If two planes collide, how does it determine damage to each aircraft, and how does it choose which plane is damaged more?
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the one that gets the ram message should be the one to die.
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Originally posted by Brooke
How do collisions work in Aces High? If two planes collide, how does it determine damage to each aircraft, and how does it choose which plane is damaged more?
If you see a ram on your front end, you take the appropriate damage. Thats all there is to it.
Then confusion starts where people dont realize that the other guy isnt going to see the same exact ranges on his front end. In the past players have tested it, and its very rare for BOTH to see a ram. So one plane usually flies away because he missed colliding on his front end.
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This topic has been just driven into the ground. Might be worth a search to see teh terrain already covered...
In brief, opposing pilots DO NOT see the exact same thing on their computers. You are fighting a time delayed image from your enemy's computer, while YOUR moves are immediate. So, if he's made a move in the last 1/2 to 1 second, you dont know it.
Meanwhile, HIS image of your plane is 1/2 to 1 sec behind what you've "really done".
Together that means that there can be 2 seconds difference in position, whcih is an eternity when measuring yards of separation at 300 mph.
The only way to solve the time delays built into the internet, while still ahving a massively multiplayer simulation, is to have the "game" played on YOUR front end computer, with status reposrts being fed to the server.
THE ONLY COLLISIONS THAT HAPPEN ARE THE ONES YOU CAUSE BY FLYING TOO CLOSE. YOUR ENEMY CANNOT HIT YOU ON YOUR COMPUTER -- ONLY YOU CAN HIT HIM.
IRL, enemies did unexpected things, so you couldnt expect to be safe as you roar under their belly -- they might nose down. Same thing in AH: If you fly
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Originally posted by Booz
It's not them, it's you. Just quit running into them.
Dunno about all that. And I certainly wouldnt say its perfect.
I do know collisions are WAY up mopre often then not people hitting me and me getting all the damage
Week ago I stalled at the top of a climb after just finishing off an La7 and was pretty much motionless for 3-4 fullseconds and got rammed by a spit as he was comming in to try to cherry pick me. None of his bullets hit but he sure did.
My plane fell to the ground cleaved in two as the spit flew along his merry way.
Sorry but that kinda lag doesnt explain away everything.
If it were that bad bullets would never hiit planes
Perfect its not.
Definately not
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Ram seems fine with me, no problem there
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Originally posted by Blixen
Can Ram Model Be Fixed?
Certainly Blix, Storch. Here is what you need to do to fix it:
Develop communications technolgy that enables instantaneous transmission of data from one computer to multiple other computers regardless of the distance between the computers. The primary problem you will need to overcome is how to transmit data at speeds multiple times that of light speed. Currently data is transmitted through the internet at speeds ranging from .6c to .8c and you will need speeds of at least 10.0c. You will also need to improve basic computer technology to reduce, or eliminate, the delay in data transmission caused by computer's need to determine the next destination.
Should you succeed at this you have all likelyhood of the following things awaiting you: Riches beyond your wildest dreams, the Nobel Prize for physics and, oddly, real time collisions in AH.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
How come its never understood that theres two realities with four planes. You ramming him doesnt mean he even came close to your plane....
The "not even coming close" part is what I have issues with. How freakn far apart am I supposed to believe we really are?
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Maybe it ain't broken, but I've seen people ram me in an IL2 and not only take no damage, but come around and do it again. Same guy, 2 passes, 2 rams, no damage to either of us from the ram. That don't sound like "working" to me. And the fact that the enema did the exact same manouever twice makes me real damn suspicious that not only is something changed in the ram model, but that some people are taking advantage of this knowledge.
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If he went just in front of you twice, that could cause 2 collisions at your front end. If you were floating, the enemy went below you.. just barely missing you on his computer = collisison at your computer.
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Originally posted by Slash27
The "not even coming close" part is what I have issues with. How freakn far apart am I supposed to believe we really are?
Do the math. It is very simple so even a dropout could do it.
If both aircraft are going 300mph and the ping time from one to the other is .5 seconds there could be as much as a 146 yard difference in position depending on the headings. It would most likely be around half of that though, so call it 70-80 yards.
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It seems to me the unfair part is that the guy with th least lag is going to get the ram. The other unfair part about having a lower ping rate is that you'll get nailed by a deflection shot that is aimed at the place I was 40ms ago. I don't know how many times I've not gone into an evasive because it looks like my opponent has too much E and will overshoot, and instead I get a one ping kill from shots fired at 300ft behind me. What may be an effective fix to this (I'm just guessing, I don't really know about these things) would be a lag buffer that makes the game lag within a specified parameter to give everyone a level ping playing field. I just get tired of being penalized for having a better connection...
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Adapt or die.
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It seems to me the unfair part is that the guy with th least lag is going to get the ram.
That is complete bull****.
Your netspeed has no bearing on whether or not you suck so much you can't avoid the other plane.
Everyone here is whining thinking they are at the losing end of all of these rams. Ever stop to think that maybe you just can't fly your plane decently?
I can count on half of my right hand the number of times I've been involved in a ram or been rammed.
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Originally posted by Skilless
It seems to me the unfair part is that the guy with th least lag is going to get the ram.
Then I have good news for you, that isn't how it works. Whoever sees the ram gets the ram. It doesn't matter who's lag is what at all.
Part of the problem I think is that many of you don't think about what the time delay lag causes really means. It does not mean that he sees the same thing you saw half a second ago. It means he sees something different than what you see.
For example:
You and he are in the process of HOing eachother while having .5 seconds delay between your FEs. He pulls up and to the side .4 seconds before impact and you do nothing. What he sees is you pass under him and then explode well behind him. What you see is him fly through you (and if you could stick around and watch he would then pull up and to the side). He never sees himself fly through you.
Note that who had more lag was completely irrelevant to who collided.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
That is complete bull****.
Your netspeed has no bearing on whether or not you suck so much you can't avoid the other plane.
Everyone here is whining thinking they are at the losing end of all of these rams. Ever stop to think that maybe you just can't fly your plane decently?
I can count on half of my right hand the number of times I've been involved in a ram or been rammed.
u dont wana take that bet , ull lose.
2 guys went to DA, both purposely flew level through each other to test the collision model and connections.
they saw that 7 of the 10 collisions 1 plane only took damage even though they BOTH flew through to ram, and it was alway the better connect.
there are issues with the collision model, but HT doesnt think so , so it wont be fixed.
its been posted what they are before.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
That is complete bull****.
Your netspeed has no bearing on whether or not you suck so much you can't avoid the other plane.
Flattery will get you nowhere.
While you may be right about the ram, the other thing I was talking about is a totally real issue. Everyday I get shot down by people who are firing at the place I was 30-40ms ago. I understand that that's where he sees me, but that's not where I see me and it all comes down to the fact that I have less lag.
I don't know why you have to be offensive about this. If you're so tired of this subject, DON'T READ THE THREAD!
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they saw that 7 of the 10 collisions 1 plane only took damage even though they BOTH flew through to ram, and it was alway the better connect.
So don't fly into them.
Case solved.
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See Rule #4
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No, what I'm tired of is seeing the exact same people whining about the exact same thing multiple times. And each time I clearly explained to them what happened and why it is.
I'm beginning to think that it's not lag, or the ram model that's borked.
It's your flying skills.
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laserguy this is my first post about this matter
so u my friend are dead wrong
as for my skills ......i`ll D.A. you any time u name plane and mine
well see how bad i "ie:"..you suck
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I dont think that is the collisions model thats wrong what i thing that is wrong is the messages,when i get a message i collided with someone i expect its me ho gets the damage cause it was i ho ramed the other guy what i dont understand is when we get the message someone collided with you and you got the damage and he flies withought any damage,shouldnt be a diference between the 2 messages?if theres no deiference why the 2 messages?
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Originally posted by Kazaa
But I do agree, when I get clipped in dog fights or yes A ho (only when im tired of so called pilots running from me of course)
Priceless.... But I do agree, nothing puts me in the mood to shoot someone in the face like the Ho, Run, Rinse, Repeat gangbangers.
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I'll take the current collision, with a change to the notification. I fail to see how a parked ostwind, or a plane sitting perfectly still on the runway, can ram another plane.
I know it's impossible for real-time collision modelling, but how about cutting down on some of the improbable events. I've been notififed that I've collided while parked in an ostwind, stopped on a runway, and AFK on auto climb. In all 3 instances, I received the "You have collided" message, when it would seem quite improbable that I rammed anything while parked, stopped, or without maneuvering.
My connection isn't great, and I certainly lose a lot of rams. While in a HO situation where 2 planes both view a collision, the faster conn may lose, I doubt that's the case of the majority of collisions in AH.
And yes, you can "exploit" the collision modelling. If there were realt-time collision modelling, you'd see many more intentional rams. I'd hesitate to call it an exploit, however, as it's not a great deal different than a deflection or lead shot. Get to where the other guy is going first, and he'll likely see you getting to that point in space at the same time he does.
Suffice to say, I can take the modelling, but the notification irks me.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm beginning to think that it's not lag, or the ram model that's borked.
It's your flying skills.
i have and others have seen, planes pass clearly visually missing from my
FE view but have had collision damage assesed. ive seen planes pass me on 1 side (visually missing my plane) and have my oposite side wing come off to collision. ive passed belly 2 belly to a enemy plane missing it on MY FE and get ram damage. ive flow through planes ded center on MY FE and no damage.
all the above isnt flying skill, its collision model related. as stated by some here and HT, if u see it on your FE ull get damage. well if i see me miss a plane on FE i shouldnt get damage for a collision either but have.
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how about friendly collisions on except when your wheels are on the ground.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Do the math. It is very simple so even a dropout could do it.
If both aircraft are going 300mph and the ping time from one to the other is .5 seconds there could be as much as a 146 yard difference in position depending on the headings. It would most likely be around half of that though, so call it 70-80 yards.
.5 seconds is a terrible ping time. If your pings are hitting 500 milliseconds, you have some serious latency issues. Your math may be good but your connection stinks.
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I think a lot of people are confused as to what lag actually does to gameplay. It doesn't create some alternative reality, as laser and others would have you believe. It creates a reality where you see your opponent wherever he was (insert your ping rate to the server)ms ago, and he sees you wherever you were (insert his ping rate to the server)ms ago. Thus the person with the lower ping rate has the disadvantage when in a head on or defensive situation.
If two planes are going head on, and niether tries to avoid the ram, the person with the least lag will see the collision. You can figure this out even by using Karnaks "drop out" math.
later
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:lol Slash27.. feeling concerned?
I don't think he meant you or condescendence.
Skilless, small correction, it's not just position and velocity, but also acceleration that're reported.
I can't see any grounds for complaint, except when you're dead in the air (e.g. at the top of a rope), and get lag-rammed.
And even then, you've earned it, except if the bogey's jittering more than a paintcan-shaker.
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Originally posted by Slash27
See Rule #4
sig material right there. go get'm tiger! :D
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I'll try to explain it once more. For now I'll just assume all you dummy's out there are burnt out from a long day of work.
There is no magical ram that should happen. There is no lag induced ram. There is no advantage of one connection to another.
There is what you see.
And there is what he sees.
[SIZE=10]NOTHING MORE[/SIZE]
The system is so complicated and so difficult to calculate ping times and speeds and positions that it is impossible to ram on purpose.
So what it boils down to is your inability to avoid the other plane.
[SIZE=10]NOTHING MORE[/SIZE]
Like I've said before. In two and a half years of playing, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been rammed or rammed someone else, COMBINED!
And this is with an average of 30ms Ping, Cable Connection with no packet loss.
Your theory and your flying skills are debunked.
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by Slash27
The "not even coming close" part is what I have issues with. How freakn far apart am I supposed to believe we really are?
I think 100 or 200 yds are not an uncommon distance between what you see on your FE and what the other guy sees on his.
If you see collision on your FE, it still can be d200 on his FE, ie you collide, he doesnt. You get damage, he doesnt.
Unfair? Yes, probably.
But imagine passing an enemy at 300 yds. Wham, you loose a wing cause *he* saw a collision....
System wont change as long as internet realities stay the same (ie light speed still is a constant in this Universe)
Suck it up and be a man about it :D.
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You see Blixen,
you start a thread about the weird things happening during collisions and you get stuff like that: "impossible, its perfect, its not related to lag". Then, when such ehm, fundamentalist replies arent enuff to stop you, you get the usual 2nd round intelligent replies: "learn to fly, stop running into them, avoid it, learn or die" and so on. It is a well tested technique to destroy any thread, adopted by the most feared cheerleaders of the MA :)
Keep on bud :aok, in the so called collision model (you need courage to call it that way) there is something weird for sure, hope HTC will loook better into it.
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rgr that
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Originally posted by Slash27
See Rule #4
You're the one that asked the stupid question rather than just doing the math yourself simpleton.
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Originally posted by moot
:lol Slash27.. feeling concerned?
I don't think he meant you or condescendence.
Skilless, small correction, it's not just position and velocity, but also acceleration that're reported.
I can't see any grounds for complaint, except when you're dead in the air (e.g. at the top of a rope), and get lag-rammed.
And even then, you've earned it, except if the bogey's jittering more than a paintcan-shaker.
Absolutely Moot, That makes perfect sense. I'm not defending the ram, and I'm not saying that I don't deserve the collision most of the time (if you turn on me for the HO I will shoot), but what I'm saying is that if two planes are flying directly at each other, and neither one attempts to avoid, the player with the least lag will see the collision. This is common sense.
Around here it seems, common sense=not common
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Originally posted by wonton
.5 seconds is a terrible ping time. If your pings are hitting 500 milliseconds, you have some serious latency issues. Your math may be good but your connection stinks.
That would be total ping time, not just one player's ping time. .150 for Player A, .300 for Player B and .050 for the Server to do it's calcs for example.
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For the fifth time in this thread alone, it is not seeing the collision.
It's not like HT is sitting in a booth over the server and yells out, "Hmm, HE DIES NOW!"
If his plane hits your plane, you die. If your plane hits his plane, he dies.
If your plane hits his plane, but you don't see it, you don't die. If his plane hits your plane, but he doesn't see it, he doesn't die.
It ain't friggin rocket science. Though it would be funny if mandatory IQ tests came along with getting a subscription to AH.
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In the case I saw, I was out in the Sturmi dealing with annoying PT dweebs and this P47 came screaming in from dead 6. Never saw him until I saw the collision message - wasn't looking for him really, was just goofing around. After we exchanged a few head-ons and he saw I wasn't going to just give him another tail shot he decided to ... run. So I went back to shooting PT's ... at point he zoomed (I was watching him this time) and came back and repeated the exact same move. Nose-to-tail collision, no damage.
Maybe it's pings. Who knows. But I can't think of a fighter which should run into a Sturmi once and walk away unscathed - let alone twice.
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Originally posted by whels
they saw that 7 of the 10 collisions 1 plane only took damage even though they BOTH flew through to ram, and it was alway the better connect.
its been posted what they are before.
that of course, only applies to your very stringent experiment, in which, yes, the person the computer says is dead (since someone has to "lose") is the first person it sees as dead- of course, that has no relation to the realities of the game whatsoever.
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Originally posted by Skilless
if two planes are flying directly at each other, and neither one attempts to avoid, the player with the least lag will see the collision. This is common sense.
The funny thing about common sense is that it isn't common and what if frequently passed off as common sense, isn't sense. Take what you just said for example. It looks reasonable and rational, but it misses a data point and so ends up flawed. It is close though, what it is missing is looking at the event from three perspectives instead of just one.
If the guy with high ping times sees the collision on his FE, his FE will then tell the sever that there was a collosion and his fighter took such and such damage. It is completely irrelevant what the other FE has already reported as far as the collision goes. Now if the ping time is bad enough on Player B then the server may very well award Player B and kill of Player A before it knows that Player B was also killed. I'm sure we have all had at least one or to instances of seeing both Player A and Player B getting credit for killing eachother. I certainly have.
Now, all of what I have said is strictly true under the assumption that there aren't any bugs, which there very well may be. I will not speak to that as I do not know.
The fact is that this subject comes up once every two weeks and it seems that the same people drive it each time. If it were just complaints about bugs I would understand, but it is frequently based to a large degree on disagreeing with the system and not understanding the problems with the alternatives. Slash27's "How freakn far apart am I supposed to believe we really are?" comment is very illuminating to this as it expresses high skeptisim that the ping times would be enough for the aircraft to be positioned so differently as to have one collide and the other miss with any frequency. That was why I was snide to him in my reply, because he didn't even try to think about it for himself, he just went with his "feelings". This is not a subject we humans can use our instinctive feelings about spatial relationships on. We must think about it to understand it.
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
In the case I saw, I was out in the Sturmi dealing with annoying PT dweebs and this P47 came screaming in from dead 6. Never saw him until I saw the collision message - wasn't looking for him really, was just goofing around. After we exchanged a few head-ons and he saw I wasn't going to just give him another tail shot he decided to ... run. So I went back to shooting PT's ... at point he zoomed (I was watching him this time) and came back and repeated the exact same move. Nose-to-tail collision, no damage.
Maybe it's pings. Who knows. But I can't think of a fighter which should run into a Sturmi once and walk away unscathed - let alone twice.
How do you know that he collided on his FE?
If this is happening it is a bug and at some point some of us should go into the DA and get films of it to send to HTC so they can address it. They would need films from both participants.
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Originally posted by Karnak
If the guy with high ping times sees the collision on his FE, his FE will then tell the sever that there was a collosion and his fighter took such and such damage. It is completely irrelevant what the other FE has already reported as far as the collision goes. Now if the ping time is bad enough on Player B then the server may very well award Player B and kill of Player A before it knows that Player B was also killed. I'm sure we have all had at least one or to instances of seeing both Player A and Player B getting credit for killing eachother. I certainly have.
The only thing you're leaving out is the fact that the computer with the lower ping rate will already have reported the collision before his opponent even sees it. The player with the higher ping rate cannot be rammed by a plane that already rammed him.
(by the way this is the first thread on this subject that I've posted to)
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Originally posted by Skilless
The only thing you're leaving out is the fact that the computer with the lower ping rate will already have reported the collision before his opponent even sees it. The player with the higher ping rate cannot be rammed by a plane that already rammed him.
(by the way this is the first thread on this subject that I've posted to)
That should not be true. If it is true then it should be reported as a bug.
Also, the damage that Player B recieves in that scenario is applied by his FE before the server even knows about it. For it to work as you say people would have films of their airplanes regrowing wings and whatnot.
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Originally posted by Karnak
That should not be true. If it is true then it should be reported as a bug.
Also, the damage that Player B recieves in that scenario is applied by his FE before the server even knows about it. For it to work as you say people would have films of their airplanes regrowing wings and whatnot.
But to the person with the most lag the collision never happens. I think the best way to settle this is to get someone with a super fast low ping connection and a person with a snail-paced dial-up, go to the DA and conduct some experiments.
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Originally posted by Skilless
But to the person with the most lag the collision never happens. I think the best way to settle this is to get someone with a super fast low ping connection and a person with a snail-paced dial-up, go to the DA and conduct some experiments.
Why would the collision never happen for the person with bad lag?
If we are talking about a situation where the guy with bad lag honestly does not collide, well then he shouldn't suffer a collision. Keep in mind though that it is entirely possible for the guy with bad lag to collide on his FE and die due to it when the guy with the good ping time never sees the collision. Lag is a two way street and bad lag affects the player with it as well as those flying against him.
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I dunno, but more often than not (99%) i get damage no matter hwo the ram collision message points to, often catastrophic dmg, while the other guy takes nothing to minimal dmg.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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la7 rammed me i got you have collided in text
and also ".........." has collided with u i went down "........." got kill
flew away and down another plane while i was in chute
so the "his fe didnt see it " is out the window
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Skilless, your last 2 posts contain completely inaccurate statements. I have a ping ranging from 230-290, and I both suffer a lot of collisions, and I have been rammed by the plane I rammed, and vice versa (in the order that the messages appear on the buffer). Not saying that these events are correct or should work this way, simply that I've had them happen often enough.
In regards to lasersailor's comment about not being able to induce a collision: yes, it's possible. http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/files/3/WadkeRam.ahf This may be a good illustration for others as to the different FEs of the participants, and illustrate the fact that I see wadke where he was, and he sees me where I was, resulting in his sudden violent demise.
While I understand that emotions run rampant in here, before anyone else starts screaming about how something can or can't happen, and how everyone who disagrees is an idiot, let's get some films or screenies up. I just dumped about a gig and a half of .ahf files, but I'll dig through my archived junk and look for instances of the cases I've mentioned.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
And he comes out swinging with the debate skills of a second grader.
When you can't win the argument, just insult him. That's an automatic win.
You've yet to prove me wrong.
You are the name caller. You are the one belittling everyone that disagrees with you. You are the one saying the only problem is gaming ability. I have only described to you the personality traits that you have displayed to me, traits that are deeply flawed and antisocial. Consider it an intervention. I'm doing you a favor.
Fact. A person with a slower connection cannot collide with someone with a faster connection head on. A person with a faster connection will ALWAYS collide with a person with a slower connection head on. If Mister HITECH himself told me otherwise I would not believe it.
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HUB,
I would like to get with you in the DA. You have a bad ping rate and mine averages 35-45. Just do a few straight and level HOs and see what happens...
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[
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Originally posted by Skilless
Fact. A person with a slower connection cannot collide with someone with a faster connection head on. A person with a faster connection will ALWAYS collide with a person with a slower connection head on. If Mister HITECH himself told me otherwise I would not believe it.
Please axplain why you believe this to be true as it makes no sense to me. One of us must be missing something here.
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I misunderstood the original intent.
Slash27
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Originally posted by Schatzi
I think 100 or 200 yds are not an uncommon distance between what you see on your FE and what the other guy sees on his.
If you see collision on your FE, it still can be d200 on his FE, ie you collide, he doesnt. You get damage, he doesnt.
Unfair? Yes, probably.
But imagine passing an enemy at 300 yds. Wham, you loose a wing cause *he* saw a collision....
System wont change as long as internet realities stay the same (ie light speed still is a constant in this Universe)
Suck it up and be a man about it :D. [/QUOT
Not an issue about being a man or not, Im just curious how far apart we really are. Thanks for the reply:D
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In discussing only straight nose-one merges, where both planes fly right through each other, and see exactly that, the faster connection would seem more likely to observe and report a collision than the slower connection would. I still think the slower plane would register the collision, but I don't think the slower plane can take damage. I'm trying to find HT's post on collisions and damage assignment a while back, where I think he said you couldn't collide with the same plane twice in short order and take damage from both events, but don't hold me to that interpretation. If someone can find that post, link it please. I'm going only from memory at the moment.
Skilless, I'd be up for that, but my gaming pc is dead in the water with a bad vid card. Don't know if I'll be back in game before the holiday passes.
I'm sure you could get a volunteer from our board of experts here in the meantime. If not, look me up then- I'm sure this issue won't get any less attention in the interum.
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Skiless, I am in the DA now. My ping time is 81.
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.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Please axplain why you believe this to be true as it makes no sense to me. One of us must be missing something here.
Take hubs ping rate of 230-290 for example. With my rate of 35, my there and back will be executed and done and I will see the collision while he still sees us as being 100yards apart. My whole aguement (obviously stated badly) is that I think there is too wide of a ping variance in the game and one way to fix it would be to deliberately introduce latency for players with uber-conections. I can't even imagine what gameplay must be like for people on the other side of the world.
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See Rule #4
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The reason that shouldn't happen is because due to his bad ping times he won't see that you are destroyed on his FE until after he has collided as well. His FE inflicts the damage on him and tells the server it happened. The server then updates everybody else's FEs with the new data.
What would make sense is for both of you to take the damage, but becayse the server knows about your destruction first it will credit him with the kill even though it was mutual destruction.
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Originally posted by Slash27
See Rule #4
Yeah, me too. I could only edit the last one. No worries, it is the thought that counts.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The reason that shouldn't happen is because due to his bad ping times he won't see that you are destroyed on his FE until after he has collided as well. His FE inflicts the damage on him and tells the server it happened. The server then updates everybody else's FEs with the new data.
What would make sense is for both of you to take the damage, but becayse the server knows about your destruction first it will credit him with the kill even though it was mutual destruction.
Dude, That's all I was trying to say...
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Originally posted by storch
the ram model is totally bogus, both planes should die, no one should get a kill for it.
Exactly.. if the system knows me & so&so collided, then both die, right now! That will cut back on HO's too.
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What IF, you made that if both planes "collided" (got the collide message) whoever it was that you "collided" with, weather you hit them or they hit you. Hell, even if you hit each other at the exact same time, BOTH planes should go down. Period.
That way, plane #1 doesn't fly off with just a scratch and the other tore all to hell. I don't know a ton about planes and flying, but I would guess if a P51 and a 109 ran into each other IRL both would prob suffer tremendous damage and plumett to Earth.
I don't think one of the pilots closes his eyes before impact and says to himself "I didn't see a collide on my FE, so I guess it didn't happen"
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Originally posted by MOIL
What IF, you made that if both planes "collided" (got the collide message) whoever it was that you "collided" with, weather you hit them or they hit you. Hell, even if you hit each other at the exact same time, BOTH planes should go down. Period.
That way, plane #1 doesn't fly off with just a scratch and the other tore all to hell. I don't know a ton about planes and flying, but I would guess if a P51 and a 109 ran into each other IRL both would prob suffer tremendous damage and plumett to Earth.
I don't think one of the pilots closes his eyes before impact and says to himself "I didn't see a collide on my FE, so I guess it didn't happen"
In that system what is to stop Pilot A from taking off to defend a field and ramming Pilot B who had to fly 10 minutes to get there?
Sure, they both go down, but Pilot A can just take off again and be where he was in 30 seconds whereas Pilot B just lost 10 minutes to a collision he had no way of avoiding or even anticipating.
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In regards to lasersailor's comment about not being able to induce a collision: yes, it's possible. http://www.furballunderground.com/f.../3/WadkeRam.ahf This may be a good illustration for others as to the different FEs of the participants, and illustrate the fact that I see wadke where he was, and he sees me where I was, resulting in his sudden violent demise.
I said deliberately collide.
There was no way you could have known where to fly in the 3d world as to where he actually was. He could have been to his left on your screen, to his right, further forward...
It's just dumb chance that you flew right onto the correct position.
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Karnak:
"In that system what is to stop Pilot A from taking off to defend a field and ramming Pilot B who had to fly 10 minutes to get there?"
Well, nothing is to stop him from such dweebery, but lets face it. people will continue to do stoopid things because, 1. it's a game and 2. There's no consequences for ones actions. No different than ramming the goon with your plane trying to save the field I guess
I just think if two planes collide they should both go down. Period!
Just my opinion
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Yes, but the two planes aren't colliding! That's the point!
If you do everything to avoid a collision on your end, why should you get punished because the other person is a ****ty pilot?
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Originally posted by MOIL
Karnak:
"In that system what is to stop Pilot A from taking off to defend a field and ramming Pilot B who had to fly 10 minutes to get there?"
Well, nothing is to stop him from such dweebery, but lets face it. people will continue to do stoopid things because, 1. it's a game and 2. There's no consequences for ones actions. No different than ramming the goon with your plane trying to save the field I guess
I just think if two planes collide they should both go down. Period!
Just my opinion
You are welcome to your own opinion, but I would guess that you would quickly reverse your opinion once you saw how badly it could be gamed.
What we have currently certainly has some issues, but at least it is very difficult to game the game with it.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Then I have good news for you, that isn't how it works. Whoever sees the ram gets the ram. It doesn't matter who's lag is what at all.
Part of the problem I think is that many of you don't think about what the time delay lag causes really means. It does not mean that he sees the same thing you saw half a second ago. It means he sees something different than what you see.
For example:
You and he are in the process of HOing eachother while having .5 seconds delay between your FEs. He pulls up and to the side .4 seconds before impact and you do nothing. What he sees is you pass under him and then explode well behind him. What you see is him fly through you (and if you could stick around and watch he would then pull up and to the side). He never sees himself fly through you.
Note that who had more lag was completely irrelevant to who collided.
Hmmmm.............
Not too long ago I got rammed from behind. I wasn't looking that way. Saw him coming in and tried to move to avoid. Applied rudder and rolled away. At the time of the collision I was looking forward. I went down with damage.
Twice I've moved to avoid a headon and on my FE sure looked to me like we missed each other but bang damage and down i go.
Been recording allot of film lately but not seeing the same stuff.
Filming and hopeing to catch it on film. BUT noticing what I saw isn't always on film later. Also noticed size of window for filming SEEMS to change just slightly the way stuff happens in some of the recorded films. Saw this with older film where I fired and the bullets looked like I went right through and then when I enlarged the window it showed I just barely missed.
Collision model SEEMS change from about 2.5 patch on..........
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Originally posted by whels
u dont wana take that bet , ull lose.
2 guys went to DA, both purposely flew level through each other to test the collision model and connections.
they saw that 7 of the 10 collisions 1 plane only took damage even though they BOTH flew through to ram, and it was alway the better connect.
there are issues with the collision model, but HT doesnt think so , so it wont be fixed.
its been posted what they are before.
Whels has it right 110%
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Originally posted by Shane
I dunno, but more often than not (99%) i get damage no matter hwo the ram collision message points to, often catastrophic dmg, while the other guy takes nothing to minimal dmg.
Couldnt happen to a nicer guy..... :lol
JK Shane, works that way for me too, have even collided 200+ yards away from other AC... here again I DIED... something HAS changed in spite of HTCs denial.. it may be an unintentional consequence of the new smoothing code and no direct collision model change... BUT something HAS changed.
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wrag,
Sorry, I phrased that too imprecisly. You're taking "Whoever sees" too literally. What I mean by that is whoever's FE detects a ram is who takes the damage, not that you actually have to have your view facing the right way to see it with your eyes. I hope that clarifies it a bit.
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karnak it just doesnt always happen that way, not even half the time. I get the message that the other player collided with ME.... I DIE or take heavy damage, he flies on.
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"Your netspeed has no bearing on whether or not you suck so much you can't avoid the other plane.
Everyone here is whining thinking they are at the losing end of all of these rams. Ever stop to think that maybe you just can't fly your plane decently?
I can count on half of my right hand the number of times I've been involved in a ram or been rammed."
This is crap lol...someone explain to me how my straight and level buffs routinely get rammed from below behind and above from out of control pilots and my plane explodes while they fly away? how is my buff gonna ram someone else while on auto? do they pull away and my end sees that they actually hit me and i get a ram message? it all sounds like poor collision model coupled with lag issues to me..just turn it off already
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
karnak it just doesnt always happen that way, not even half the time. I get the message that the other player collided with ME.... I DIE or take heavy damage, he flies on.
In the five years I've subscribed to this game it has always happened that way. On the other hand I don't have a great statistical sampling of rams either given how rarely they happen to me. Tonight Skilless and I did a brief test and it behaved exactly as I have described in this thread.
In the first test I flew next to Skilless and then slid sideways into him. On my FE it looked like his wing entered my cockpit and on his FE it looked like I passed 50ft behind him. I died, he did not. The second test was the classic HO and I honestly didn't check to see who it claimed hit who or even if it reported both, but the result was that Skilless' Spit I and my Spit XIV both went down. His ping was 68 and mine was 81.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I said deliberately collide.
There was no way you could have known where to fly in the 3d world as to where he actually was. He could have been to his left on your screen, to his right, further forward...
It's just dumb chance that you flew right onto the correct position.
No, it can be done, and I've done it quite a few times. As soon as I'm up and running again, I'll get more films. It's not rocket science; it's simply interpreting where your opponent will be, and where you will be. It's no different than lead shooting- I'm sure any number of pilots who are near average (I myself am well below average) could manage the same results, or better. You'll notice in the film viewer that I'd run out of ammo. While I didn't know this was Wadke (a squaddie), I knew I'd spoil his shot at the very least, and likely kill him regardless.
BTW, what's your ingame ID? Perhaps I'll ram you.
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No, you don't get it. Where he is isn't necessarily in line with where you see him.
I.E. If you cut 50 yards infront of him, he will die because You've rammed him on his FE.
His FE could be off to the side, behind a little bit, or way further forward.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'll try to explain it once more. For now I'll just assume all you dummy's out there are burnt out from a long day of work.
There is no magical ram that should happen. There is no lag induced ram. There is no advantage of one connection to another.
There is what you see.
And there is what he sees.
[SIZE=10]NOTHING MORE[/SIZE]
The system is so complicated and so difficult to calculate ping times and speeds and positions that it is impossible to ram on purpose.
So what it boils down to is your inability to avoid the other plane.
[SIZE=10]NOTHING MORE[/SIZE]
Like I've said before. In two and a half years of playing, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been rammed or rammed someone else, COMBINED!
And this is with an average of 30ms Ping, Cable Connection with no packet loss.
Your theory and your flying skills are debunked.
Ok Im hung up in the air nose up in a virtual stall. Im neither going up, nor down Im just hanging there for the few seconds it takes for gravity to take over and start pulling my plane back down.
Enemy spit comes at me bullets passing on either side. Its obvious he is shooting at me in this situation and sees me right where I see me or bullets wouldnt be going past my plane.
He smashes into me cleaving my plane in two. Yet he receives no damage?
Sorry but he sees/I sees in this matter had to be the same thing or damn close enough to it where at the very least we both should have taken damage. Yet he flies off withoutso much as a scratch.
One would think even with lag that almost as often as not both planes woudl take damage occasionally.
Yet I. From MY view have collided with panes and seen them go down while receiving no damage myself.
In other worlds I've been ont he other side of this equasion.
And it used to be Both planes would take damage almost as often as only 1.
Its been months since the last time I saw both planes taking damage.
always its 1 plane or the other now Not both.
As for flying skills.
I think I do well enough to hold my own thankyouverymuch
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, you don't get it. Where he is isn't necessarily in line with where you see him.
I.E. If you cut 50 yards infront of him, he will die because You've rammed him on his FE.
His FE could be off to the side, behind a little bit, or way further forward.
Jesus christ, WTF do you want? You said a ram couldn't be intentionally induced. Here's a film showing it's no different than lead shooting. How am I not getting it? I've proven what I said; you haven't.
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What he means is that it cannot be done with certainty. It can be done when you are trying, but there is much guess work as you have no idea what his ping time is and it is hard to guess how far off to one side of where he appears to be he is, if he is. All in all it is just vastly easier, and safer, to shoot him.
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BTW, what's your ingame ID? Perhaps I'll ram you.
LOL:lol
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Here is one of the many discussions HT participated in about this topic. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=163519)