Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Henrique Jitsu on December 11, 2005, 05:12:44 PM
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Hi.
I just would like to know your opinion:
Who invented the airplane?
Alberto Santos Dummont or The Wright Brothers?
The Wright brothers for me is more one of the american myths.Many smart people and specialist said that their airplane would never fly and tried many times to build their airplane but it didnt even raise its nose.
Now, Santos Dummont , a real genious, the inventor of the shower, the inventor of that thing that looks like a baloon which became famous after the Zeppelin incident, brazilian, which house is now a museum with dozens of revolutionary inventions and the real inventor of the airplane who flew in paris the 14-BIS, the first self powered machine that left ground by 7 seconds wich was filmed and the film still exists and you can watch it is to me (and to god) the real inventor of the plane and the father of aviation
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al gore
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Henrique,
Ésta discusão irá continuar até o fim de tempo como nós conhecemos. Eu não estáva lá e não sei. Pareçe que Santos Dumont poderia ter sido o primeiro mas não sei por certeza.
Abraços,
Marcos (tambem conhecido como MarkAT)
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Davinci is probably the first to draw plans and such for an airplane. As for actually inventing, and building a plane. Wright Brothers.
However, there is a theory that as Mime brought up. That Al Gore invented a time machine, traveled back in time and invented the airplane.
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I invented the Time Machine. However, I just haven't built it yet.
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I invented the first plane I straped cardboard to my back and jumped of my roof I just didn't invent landing gear:(
This is true
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Originally posted by Estes
Davinci is probably the first to draw plans and such for an airplane. As for actually inventing, and building a plane. Wright Brothers.
However, there is a theory that as Mime brought up. That Al Gore invented a time machine, traveled back in time and invented the airplane.
Davinci drawed a helicopter,not a plane...
Who is Al Gore?Isn't him a politician?:confused:
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The Wright brothers for me is more one of the american myths.Many smart people and specialist said that their airplane would never fly and tried many times to build their airplane but it didnt even raise its nose.
Many people also said the world was flat and the sun revovled around it. There plane did fly, they even got it on film. There subsaquent write flyers flew pretty darn well compared to their first one.
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What about Otto Lilienthal? Not powered flight, but he did invent the first gliders.
Daniel
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I think Vulcan posted some time ago about a Kiwi who invented the airplane before the Wright Brothers.
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I'm pretty sure it was a soviet.
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Naw Suave, in Soviet Russia, the Plane Designes YOU!
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Originally posted by RedDg
I think Vulcan posted some time ago about a Kiwi who invented the airplane before the Wright Brothers.
A guy called Richard Pearse, in Canterbury, NZ, is supposed to have flown 31 March 1903: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse
But who knows, the Wright Brothers are the fathers of modern aviation in my book. People like Pearse well... meh..., he never went on to contribute anything to aviation like the Wright Brothers did.
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Originally posted by Henrique Jitsu
Davinci drawed a helicopter,not a plane...
(http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/leonardo/DI31G1.jpg)
(http://media.nasaexplores.com/lessons/02-023/images/da-vinci-flyingmachine.jpg)
Sketches of an airplane Leo didn't think about.
(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/top10/wright-flyer.jpg)
Photo of the Wright Flyer Dec 17, 1903
In 1906, Santos Dumont built a biplane of what the French had begun to call the type du Wright, loosely based on the Wright biplane plans that had been published in several European magazines.
The elevator and rudder protruded in front of the wings like the head of a duck in flight. It was promptly dubbed a canard (French for "duck"), and the name was incorporated into the growing aeronautical lexicon.
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Thank you Holden. I couldn't find a picture of that sketch. I knew he designed it after watching birds. But couldn't find the damn picture.
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The only powered flight I know of that may precede the Wrights was in March 1903 by the Elisha Grey of aviation, Kiwi Richard Pearse who flew by most witness accounts the distance of somewhere between 100 - 150 metres.
In his own published letters Pearse was unsatisfied that he had achieved controlled flight, so the honor still belongs to the brothers from Dayton.
(http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/images/rp-motat.jpg)
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in Soviet Russia, the Plane Designes YOU!
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This is profound Eagl.
1) The guy that invented the first airplane? Good question. Who was it?
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Originally posted by Henrique Jitsu
Davinci drawed a helicopter,not a plane...
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True but he did also draw the Parachute.
Almost as important LOL
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I think the basic design has been around for hundreds of years. Probably designed by some European master craftsmen.
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/plane11.jpg)
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I think that the Wright Brothers made the 1st self-powered and controllable aircraft.
Santos Dumont fanboys dispute that fact by saying that the Flyer was launched by a catapult.
If I'm correct, it took off from some kind of rail but wasn't "launched".
Oh, Kurt Tank made all the subsequent improvements btw.
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Alberto Santos-Dumont (July 20, 1873 - July 23, 1932) was an important early pioneer of aviation. Although he was born, grew up, and died in Brazil, his contributions to aviation were made while he was living in France.
Santos-Dumont described himself as the first "sportsman of the air." He designed, built, and flew a variety of balloons before developing the first practical dirigible balloons (i.e. airships.) In addition, he made the first fully public flight of an airplane, in Paris in October of 1906 (In comparison, Wright brothers did not make any public flights until 1908 with an improved Flyer presenting a considerably higher power-to-weight ratio). That aircraft, designated 14 Bis or Oiseau de proie (French for "bird of prey"), is considered by many to be the first to take off, fly, and land without the use of catapults, high winds, or other external assistance. Thus, Brazilians, as well as many other admirers of Santos-Dumont, consider him to be the "Father of Aviation" as well as the inventor of the airplane. (Much controversy persists around the many competing claims of early aviators. See first flying machine for more discussion.)
From wikipedia
By the way,being the inventor of the hot air baloons(by a priest in the XVII),of the dirigible baloons (by santos dummont), we brazilians deserve to have the "Father of Aviation"
@some people: Leonardo da vinci didn't invent any fly realted machine,he just draw it. It's the same thing if I draw a spaceship and in 300 years people say that I invented the first spaceship... YOU NEED TO MAKE IT WORK => as santos dumont did in paris,which was caught on tape and presenced by thousands of people :D
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/Alberto_santos_dumont.jpg)
Doesn't he look like a pimp in that suit?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/63/14-bis-wth-air-ballon-aid.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/14bis2.jpg)
The first airplane that really flew
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/85/Demoiselle2.jpg)
His most famous model which even being patented,was sold by americans(Duh) and a french.this model could be built in 15 days
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Press that small IMG button on top of the text box and paste the URL there.
Images won't show if they're protected against hotlinking.
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The first dirigible airship
Santos-Dumont hired an experienced balloon pilot and took his first balloon rides as a passenger. Eventually he piloted them himself, and soon was designing his own balloons. In 1898, Santos-Dumont went up in his first balloon design, the Brésil. After numerous balloon flights, he turned to the design of steerable balloons or dirigible type balloons that could be propelled through the air rather than drifting along with the breeze.
A good men
The zenith of his lighter-than-air career came on October 19, 1901 when he won the Deutsch de la Meurthe prize of 100,000 francs for flying his dirigible Number 6 from the Parc Saint Cloud to the Eiffel Tower and back under thirty minutes. In a charitable gesture, he donated half of the prize money to the poor of Paris. The other half was given to his workmen as a bonus.
The most famous men in the world
Alberto's aviation feats made him a celebrity in Europe and throughout the world. He won several more prizes and became a friend to millionaires, aviation pioneers, and royalty. In 1901 he was considered by many to be the most famous person in the world. In 1904, he went to the United States and was invited to the White House to meet US President Theodore Roosevelt.
Achievment
Although Santos-Dumont continued to work on dirigibles, his primary interest soon turned to heavier-than-air-craft. By 1905 he had finished his first airplane design, and also a helicopter. He finally achieved his dream of flying on an airplane in October 23 of 1906, when, piloting the 14 Bis before a large crowd of witnesses, he flew a distance of 60 metres (197 ft) at a height of 2-3 m. This well-documented event was the first flight verified by the Aero-Club De France of a powered heavier-than-air machine in Europe, and the first public demonstration in the world of an aircraft taking off from an ordinary airstrip with a non-detachable landing gear and on its own power (self-propelled) and in calm weather, officially resolving the problem of getting a machine that is "heavier than air" to take off the ground by its own means. With this accomplishment, he won the Archdeacon Prize founded by the Frenchman Ernest Archdeacon in July of 1906, to be awarded to the first aviator to fly more than 25 meters. On November 12 of the same year, Santos-Dumont succeeded in setting the first world record in aviation by flying 220 meters in less than 22 seconds. Both of these events occurred before the Wright Brothers had made any public flights
Contributions
Santos-Dumont made numerous contributions to the field of aircraft control. The most noteworthy one was the use of effective ailerons at the outer wings. He also pushed for and exploited substantial improvements in engine power- to-weight ratio, and other refinements in aircraft construction techniques.
Final design
Santos-Dumont's final design was the Demoiselle monoplane (Nos. 19 to 22). This aircraft was employed as Dumont's personal transportation and he willingly let others make use of his design. The fuselage consisted of a specially reinforced bamboo boom, and the pilot sat beneath betweem the main wheels of a tricycle landing gear. The Demoiselle was controlled in flight partially by a tail unit that functioned both elevator and rudder and by wing warping (No. 20). The Demoiselle airplane could be constructed in only fifteen days.
The French WWI-ace Roland Garros flew it at the Belmont Park, New York, in 1910. The June 1910 edition of the Popular Mechanics magazine published drawings of the Demoiselle and affirmed that the Dumont's plane was the better than which any other has ever been built, for those who wish to reach results with the least possible expense and with a minimum of experimenting. American companies sold drawings and parts of Demoiselle for several years thereafter. Santos Dumont was so enthusiastic about the aviation that he released the drawings of Demoiselle for free, thinking that the aviation would be the mainstream of a new prosperous era for mankind. Clément Bayard, an automotive maker, constructed several units of Demoiselle, which was sold for 50,000 Francs.
The French WWI-ace Roland Garros flew it at the Belmont Park, New York, in 1910. The June 1910 edition of the Popular Mechanics magazine published drawings of the Demoiselle and affirmed that the Dumont's plane was the better than which any other has ever been built, for those who wish to reach results with the least possible expense and with a minimum of experimenting. American companies sold drawings and parts of Demoiselle for several years thereafter.
Santos Dumont was so enthusiastic about the aviation that he released the drawings of Demoiselle for free, thinking that the aviation would be the mainstream of a new prosperous era for mankind. Clément Bayard, an automotive maker, constructed several units of Demoiselle, which was sold for 50,000 Francs.
The design of Demoiselle clearly influenced that of the Blériot XI airplane, which was used for the British Channel crossing in 1909.
Disputed Title
Alberto's aviation feats made him a celebrity in Europe and throughout the world. He won several more prizes and became a friend to millionaires, aviation pioneers, and royalty. In 1901 he was considered by many to be the most famous person in the world. In 1904, he went to the United States and was invited to the White House to meet US President Theodore Roosevelt. Even the USA president knew that those wright boys were liars seeking fame and girls
He was the first aviator to fly more than 25 meters. On November 12 of the same year, Santos-Dumont succeeded in setting the first world record in aviation by flying 220 meters in less than 22 seconds. Both of these events occurred before the Wright Brothers had made any public flights. duh,the wright brothers never made a real public flight
Who is true, don't fear
Much of the controversy with regard to Santos-Dumont vs. the Wrights arose from the difference in their approaches to publicity. Santos made his flights in public, often accompanied by a great deal of fanfare. In contrast, the Wrights were very concerned about protecting their intellectual property and made their early flights in remote locations and without many international aviation officials present. The defense of their flight was also complicated by the jealousies of other American aviation enthusiasts and disputes over patents. In November 1905, the Aero Club of France learned of the Wrights' alleged flight of 24 miles. They sent a correspondent to investigate the Wrights' accounts. In January 1906, members in the Aero Club of France's meeting were stunned by the reports of the Wrights' flights.[/I] Archdeacon sent a taunting letter to the Wrights, demanding that they come to France and prove themselves, but the Wrights did not respond. Thus, the aviation world (of which Paris was the center at the time) witnessed the products of Santos' work first hand. As a result, many members French and other Europeans dismissed the Wrights as frauds (like many others at the time) and assigned Santos-Dumont the accolade of the "first to fly."
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IMO Santos Dumont could have been first, but the Wright Flyer was a far superior design.
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Some more pioneers of motorized flight: Augustus Moore Herring (http://www.swmidirectory.org/First_in_Flight.html) and Gustav Weisskopf (http://www.weisskopf.de/history.htm) (aka Gustave Whitehead).
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Originally posted by mora
IMO Santos Dumont could have been first, but the Wright Flyer was a far superior design.
Santos-Dumont's final design was the Demoiselle monoplane (Nos. 19 to 22).
The Demoiselle airplane could be constructed in only fifteen days. With excellent performance, easily covering 200 m of ground during the initial flights and flying at speeds of more than 100 km/h.
American companies sold drawings and parts of Demoiselle for several years thereafter. Santos Dumont was so enthusiastic about the aviation that he released the drawings of Demoiselle for free, thinking that the aviation would be the mainstream of a new prosperous era for mankind.
The design of Demoiselle clearly influenced that of the Blériot XI airplane, which was used for the British Channel crossing in 1909.
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Originally posted by Panzzer
Some more pioneers of motorized flight: Augustus Moore Herring (http://www.swmidirectory.org/First_in_Flight.html) and Gustav Weisskopf (http://www.weisskopf.de/history.htm) (aka Gustave Whitehead).
There are parachutes, kites, lighter than air craft (balloons/airships), gliders and powered aircraft, which all have some ability to fly.
People that claim to be the first who flew:
* John Stringfellow, England — 1848
* Alexander Feodorovich Mozhaiski, Russian Empire — 1884
* Clement Ader, France — October 9, 1890
* Otto Lilienthal, Germany — 1891
* Gustave Whitehead, Germany/United States — August 14, 1901
* Lyman Gilmore, United States — May 15, 1902
* Richard Pearse, New Zealand — March 31, 1903
* Karl Jatho, Germany — August 18, 1903
* Orville & Wilbur Wright, United States — December 17, 1903
* Traian Vuia, Romania — March 18, 1906
* Jacob Ellehammer, Denmark — September 12, 1906
* Alberto Santos-Dumont, Brazil/France — November 12, 1906
Note that the claims just stoped after santos dumont, which was the only one who proved and even filmed his flight
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Henrique, do you like Steve Ray Vaughan? (just a short test needed by an arising doubt...)
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Originally posted by Henrique Jitsu
Who is true, don't fear
Much of the controversy with regard to Santos-Dumont vs. the Wrights arose from the difference in their approaches to publicity.
the aviation world (of which Paris was the center at the time) witnessed the products of Santos' work first hand. As a result, many members French and other Europeans dismissed the Wrights as frauds
Sounds more like typical French self rightous arrogance to me.
the emphasis seems to be on "Public" flights.
And more pointedly. Public flights in front of the French.
Soprry but as far as Im concerned. a Photograph taken in 1903 (didnt they also have somone capture it on moving pictures also?) is just as good as doing it in front of a large audience in 1906
Napoleon, and Mediocre wine. THATS Frances claim to fame.
Havent done very much before or since.
;)
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Originally posted by Henrique Jitsu
There are parachutes, kites, lighter than air craft (balloons/airships), gliders and powered aircraft, which all have some ability to fly.
People that claim to be the first who flew:
* John Stringfellow, England — 1848
* Alexander Feodorovich Mozhaiski, Russian Empire — 1884
* Clement Ader, France — October 9, 1890
* Otto Lilienthal, Germany — 1891
* Gustave Whitehead, Germany/United States — August 14, 1901
* Lyman Gilmore, United States — May 15, 1902
* Richard Pearse, New Zealand — March 31, 1903
* Karl Jatho, Germany — August 18, 1903
* Orville & Wilbur Wright, United States — December 17, 1903
* Traian Vuia, Romania — March 18, 1906
* Jacob Ellehammer, Denmark — September 12, 1906
* Alberto Santos-Dumont, Brazil/France — November 12, 1906
Note that the claims just stoped after santos dumont, which was the only one who proved and even filmed his flight
Let me get this right, your claim is that all the flights the Wright brothers did between December 1903 and November 1906 never occured and that first real flight was by Dumont in 1906?
I just want to make it perfectly clear that I think you're either a willful liar or a crazy person, because nobody could be that innocently stupid.
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I don't agree with the kid, but he never claimed that, GH. You should work on your reading skills.
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I think he has been pretty consistent in saying that thew wright brothers did not build a flying plane before Dumont.
Now did he specifically write out exactly what I said no, but thats the obvious implication of his argument, and hence the BS check from me.
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He's only 15 and has obviously read a lot about the subject before posting, go easy on him. After all, I can still post pretty dumb things at more than twice his age.
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Originally posted by mora
IMO Santos Dumont could have been first, but the Wright Flyer was a far superior design.
I take this one back. I somehow had the idea that SF claimed to have made a flight before the Wright Brothers. As it was only in 1906 there's no doubt about it.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Sounds more like typical French self rightous arrogance to me.
the emphasis seems to be on "Public" flights.
And more pointedly. Public flights in front of the French.
Soprry but as far as Im concerned. a Photograph taken in 1903 (didnt they also have somone capture it on moving pictures also?) is just as good as doing it in front of a large audience in 1906
Napoleon, and Mediocre wine. THATS Frances claim to fame.
Havent done very much before or since.
;)
Except the poster is not french.
Or we did invade Brazil last night ?
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There is little doubt that this Alberto Santos Dummont guy was a great aviation pioneer. And if you want to say that he was the first to fly before a public crowd well go right ahead.
But there is no doubt that the Wright Brothers were the first in the air. Just because they didn't have a great public crowd doesn't detract from that in the least.
Even France has admitted that the Wrights were first. Brazil is about the only country still hanging on to that faint hope that the world will somehow come around to their point of view. It's was a century ago, I think it's time to let it go.
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Originally posted by straffo
Or we did invade Brazil last night ?
Yes you did actually.....then immediatly surrendered. That's why it didn't make the news.....damn media bias. ;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yes you did actually.....then immediatly surrendered. That's why it didn't make the news.....damn media bias. ;)
......
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Kayley.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Henrique, do you like Steve Ray Vaughan? (just a short test needed by an arising doubt...)
:rofl