Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: EagleDNY on December 13, 2005, 05:27:14 PM
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If we are going to have a surface fleet, why not have the real thing? I'd like to see the Baltimore Class punk-cruisers get replaced with a real battleship.
Lets see that IOWA CLASS BB:
3 x Triple 16" Gun Mount
10 x Twin 5" Gun Mount
20 x Quad 40mm AA, 2 x Dual 40mm
47 x 20mm Single Mount
Now THAT's what you want supporting your amphibious invasion of an island base. I'm getting tired of being able to just up a tiffie and wack the cruiser with a couple of 1000 lb bombs.
The Yamato took 8 bombs and 10 torpedoes before sinking. I don't know what we'd set an Iowa class BB to take before being destroyed, but it would make for one hell of a air-sea battle when that thing rolled up. Might be interesting to be shelling inland bases with those 16" guns too!
EagleDNY
:aok
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http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/bb-61.htm
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Somehow I don't think HT would give use the harpoon & tomahawk launchers
:)
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or how bout a battleship like the Battleship Texas. The Texas served most of the WW2 theaters
here is the Battleship Texas's batttle record
http://www.battleshiptexas.org/wwii.htm
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I've never heard of P-40s or PV-2s being catapult launched from BBs
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+1 for battleships.
We need The Big MO
(http://www.ussmissouri.com/images/bow.jpg)
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Better yet, how about a Japanese BB task group. We already have an American task group.
A Yamato class BB escorted by a Takao or two and a bunch of fast Japanese destroyers seems like a much more interesting addition to AH than more American ships.
Besides, don't you want to hit a base with nine 18" guns?
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Any of the large BB's would be nice to see. Iowa class, Yamato, Bismark. Be nice to be able to man the 5" guns on the DD's also.
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The Yamato would be cool also.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g320000/g325953.jpg(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g320000/g325953.jpg)
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I'd like to see the true historical range for the big guns... They could fire shells beyond visual range -- up to 25 miles or so. I'd love to soften up a field from almost a sector away while the fleet moves closer.
I'd also love a rangefinder too, but that's just me.
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Why not add a surface battle group?
BB's and CA's in a line of battle, we have some great ship gunners..
And maybe it would keep guys from parking the CV's right next to a base... and getting it killed.
CAVALRY
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I vote yes for a Yamato (or even Nagato, Kongo, Ise, Fuso, any IJN BB) task force.
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Since we are discussing the Yamatos, take a look at the first image below. The Navy says the battleship to the left is either the Musashi or the Yamato. Well, it's the Musashi as she is down by the bows (bow low in the water), just as shown in the second photo. You would think they would have put this together by now....
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g270000/g272550.jpg)
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h63000/h63434.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks for the photos Widewing.
An Iowa task group would be the nastier package (unless you were the base being shelled), but either would be both incredibly nasty compared to the task group we have and insanely tougher. Neither the Musashi nor the Yamato went down easy and the Iowas would be nearly as tough with more intense AA fire.
Either way, Iowa or Yamato, if they ever do add one, I can't wait to hear the screams the first time somebody lets a BB task group get within good range of a CV task group. You know that it will happen in AH, even though no fleet carrier ever came under BB fire in WWII.
Here is an artist's rendition of Yamato's death fight:
(http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/yamatodeath.jpg)
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I'd settle on being able to man the 5 inch and 40mm's on the Destroyers in the fleet.
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woohooo BBs!
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A quick note on shell size:
The size of the shell wasn't the whole story on firepower. While the Yamato's 18" guns were some of the biggest ever made, IIRC the 16" of the Iowas were actually MORE powerful due to muzzle velocity and other factors (radar controlled aim certainly helped, too).
Same holds true in the Atlantic: I think the Italians had a BB with 16-18" but still lacked the hitting power of a Brit or French ship with 14-15" guns.
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The muzzle velocity on BBs has more to do with range than hitting power beyond a certain point, and as I recall the 18" on the Yamato had a muzzle velocity up there with the US 16" guns. As far as bombardment goes, the 18" should simply be superior in terms of impact.
The Italians didn't have anything with 18" guns. I'll have to check on the 16" guns.
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May not have been an Italian battlewagon, but the point I was making is that the overall size of the gun didn't have everything to do with hitting power, and that some ships with smaller guns packed more punch per shell.
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The only BBs to carry 18" guns were the Yamatos.
Various American, British, Japanese and, perhaps, Italian BBs carried 16" guns. German BBs in WWII had 15" guns. The only 'modern' 14" guns that I am aware of were carried by the British King George V BBs, all others being WWI legacy guns.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The muzzle velocity on BBs has more to do with range than hitting power beyond a certain point, and as I recall the 18" on the Yamato had a muzzle velocity up there with the US 16" guns. As far as bombardment goes, the 18" should simply be superior in terms of impact.
The Italians didn't have anything with 18" guns. I'll have to check on the 16" guns.
Last quarters Naval History magazine had a good "what if" on BBs - they came to the conclusion that although the Yamato had larger guns, the accuracy and ROF advantage of the Iowas would likely give them the advantage in any head to head fight.
Either BB would be fine as far as I am concerned - I'd just like to see something a lot tougher than the "2 Bomb Wonder" cruiser we have now. An entire group made up of surface combatants only would be interesting, and I think it would actually add quite a bit to gameplay to have to hunt down and kill that floating ack-island before it got in range of your base. Maybe having 20 x 5" guns available might actually stop the divebombing suicidal lancs too.
EagleDNY
.02 more
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What would be really cool is for each fleet to have its own identity. IE Yorktown escorted by Missouri. Kaga escorted by Yamoto. Etc etc etc.
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Originally posted by icemaw
What would be really cool is for each fleet to have its own identity. IE Yorktown escorted by Missouri. Kaga escorted by Yamoto. Etc etc etc.
I second that. Also, the whole concept of different boats in the groups would be more exciting to gameplay anyway. It could be something like different size airfields like we already have, but would be more meaningful because the capabilities would be different based on the group.
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For that matter, task groups would be more exciting if the boats acted more realisticly. At least if damaged boats started to slow down...
The group leader boat (CV or BB) would determine the speed of the other boats in the group. As it was damaged, the whole group would start to slow down and stay with it.
If a group were being persued, it could get away if the lead boat were damaged, or the persuing group could catch up if the lead boat of the group being chased were damaged.
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Some interesting data on the 16" guns carried by the Iowa Class BBs is located here:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm
Good data in game terms - ROF of 2/Rnds minute and data on the size of the projectiles and range/accuracy tables. Good place for HT to get gun data from (hint hint) ;)
EagleDNY
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
or how bout a battleship like the Battleship Texas. The Texas served most of the WW2 theaters
here is the Battleship Texas's batttle record
http://www.battleshiptexas.org/wwii.htm
The Texas did have quite a distinguished record during the war, but for AH gameplay purposes she really doesn't have the AAA needed to survive. Her 5" guns don't elevate for AA work, so she would be limited to her 40mm and 3" mounts.
EagleDNY
.02
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Originally posted by icemaw
What would be really cool is for each fleet to have its own identity. IE Yorktown escorted by Missouri. Kaga escorted by Yamoto. Etc etc etc.
I would like to see, at least some, separate CV and BB groups so that people don't insist on bringing the CVs into range of the blinking shore batteries just so they can pop off some 8" shells from the CA.
Listen people, CVs are superior to bigs guns because their "artillery" is much longer ranged and much more accurate. Use it!
EagleDNY,
Yeah, I agree, though it could get ugly if Yamato landed a lucky hit early on and disabled that fire control. Both were awesome ships and the visciral impact of a BB really has to be seen to be believed. I have seen both BBs and CVs and the BBs just carry a feeling of intrinisc threat and power and heavy steel that the CV lacked (Nimitz class CV and Iowa class BB in my case).
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I can see the lure of having the Yamato running around, but that would make HT have to model 18", 6.1", 5", and 25mm guns that aren't modeled now. If we push for an Iowa, all he has to model is the 16" since we already have US 5" and 40mm models.
True this is a "wish list", but I'm hoping to actually see this wish come true so I'll push for the easier programming and hope that HT wants to give us all a Christmas present.
EagleDNY
:)
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There is a whole study that compares the best WW2 Battleships against each other. Some interesting reading. You can find it here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm
Below is an Excerpt from the report talking about the Main Battery Guns:
GENERAL COMMENTS: The Japanese 18.1"/45 reigned supreme as the most destructive piece of naval ordnance ever mounted afloat. However, its ballistic performance was not particularly inspiring, and the performance of its Type 91 shells was inferior to the norm, partly because they were optimized for underwater trajectories 7. Immediately below it in terms of power is the US 16"/50. Good ballistics, and superb shells, give this gun a tremendous whallop, and in combat terms I rate it as the equal of the Japanese weapon, largely because of its shells. Below that, in an upset, comes Richelieu's 15"/45, as the best all-around 15" gun, and feel the most useful in an actual combat situation. The Italian 15"/50 was an enormously potent weapon from a raw power perspective, but it sacrificed a lot in order to achieve that performance, and had decidedly inferior shells. I should note, though, that I am still investigating this particular gun and her shells in more detail; the information available on her shells is rather spotty. Bismarck's 15"/47 shell is 10% lighter than the French and Italian, although her cyclic rate is attractive, and her guns were very accurate. At the bottom of the spectrum, King George V's 14" gun clearly doesn't have nearly the oomph necessary to compete with the rest of these guys.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'd like to see the true historical range for the big guns... They could fire shells beyond visual range -- up to 25 miles or so. I'd love to soften up a field from almost a sector away while the fleet moves closer.
I'd also love a rangefinder too, but that's just me.
You can already fire over half a sector, max range on the 8" is 31k, which I believe works out to 17 miles and change, which is good enough for me. As for a range finder there already is one for static targets(maybe you don't know the secret uber aim hack ;), and shooting enemy cv's would be rediculously easy if you had a rangefinder for that.
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Im not sure if this is already mentioned in this thread, but what about 'lone' BB's? Im sure the ships didn't always sail with escort? (Except CV's)
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BBs pretty much always had lighter ships around them, even when doing convoy escort in the Atlantic. BBs and CVs are both top end capital ships, often flagships, and as such would be screened by lighter units.
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I'd like to see much larger groups - for example:
1 CV (maybe 2 CVs?)
1 BB (2, more?)
2 CA (3? 4?)
8 DD
There are only a few groups, so having larger CV groups, or even groups of all surface combatants (1 BB, 2 CA, 4 DD?) might be interesting to try.
Maybe larger groups should have a longer respawn time if destroyed - I'd be in favor of trying everything from 30 minutes to 2 Hours just to see if it creates a better dynamic.
I also like the idea (up the thread) of making troops / LVTs unavailable if nothing but DDs is left. I think I'd leave the PT spawn going as long as the DDs were there though.
I think altering / enlarging the CV battle group is really a good idea - both from the better gameplay, and the better realism standpoints. I'm hoping that it will encourage a bit better teamplay as well since it should make it more difficult for one porker to come along with a set of lancs and destroy the group.
EagleDNY
.02
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Problem with more ships in a task group is lower FPS. For a H2H Midway Map I made; I used 11 destroyers, 5 cruisers and 4 carriers for the Japanese fleet. I got an average FPS of 25-30 when flying alone through that, and when I changed countries the amount of artillary it put up caused FPS to drop to 15-25.
Now add 40 planes attacking/defending that, catching fire, ships catching fire, explosions, ships sinking, tracers and skins. I would be lucky to keep 15 FPS. (I have an average system, I'm sure a lot of people with better video cards, etc. would have no problem with FPS)
I think the hard part of adding a Battleship is keeping polycount down. There would probably be as many polygons in a single Battleship as in 2 CV Task Groups in AH now.
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The most beautiful ship ever to float.
(http://bobhenneman.info/photos%20for%20website/battlecruisers/Kongo_color.jpg)
This is a rare photo of the Kongo.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The most beautiful ship ever to float.
Karaya
(http://www.torrington-cavaliers.co.uk/images/Victory/Victory1.jpg)
(http://www.hms-victory.com/images/zoom/SECEBA/victory06.jpg)
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QUAH!!!!
teh victory is too uber!!!!!
Forecastle: 2 x medium 12 pounder (5 kg), 2 x 68 pounder (31 kg) carronade
Quarter deck: 12 x 1.7 ton short 12 pounder (5 kg)
Upper gundeck: 30 x 1.7 ton short 12 pounders (5 kg)
Middle gundeck: 28 x 2.5 ton long 24 pounders (11 kg)
Lower gundeck: 30 x 2.75 ton long pattern Blomefield 32 pounders (15 kg)
Marines armed with muskets aloft
teh guns are too uber!!!!! perk it!!!!!
in all seriousness though, best ship ever made :) what a great chap nelson was:aok
HMS Victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory)
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Which ship would win a 1vs1 battle, The Germans Bismarck, or the Japaness Yamato. This would be a great fight to me.
NO NO NO best ship ever to see the face of this earth
(http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/war/Greekfiremadridskylitzes1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The most beautiful ship ever to float.
(http://bobhenneman.info/photos%20for%20website/battlecruisers/Kongo_color.jpg)
This is a rare photo of the Kongo.
Karaya
Have to disagree there - USS ALASKA CB-1 was much better looking than the KONGO Class BB's.
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h97000/h97268.jpg)
:aok
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Kongo is properly a BC, not a BB. She was built as a BC and armored like a BC.
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Naaa i say the USS Oklahoma BB-37
(http://goatlocker.org/pics/bb-56.jpg)
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wait WTF on the bottom it says WASHINGTON. CRAP!!! I search for Oklahoma, and get this lovely picture, then i realize it says Washington.
Here is the oklahoma (I hope)
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h77000/h77076.jpg)
(http://goatlocker.org/pics/bb-37.jpg)
She served from 1916 to 1946. She did many opperations during her time, but was badly damaged at Pear Harbor. In 1943 she was put upright, repared here damage and put in the dry docks for more patching up. Though too old and to damaged, she was discommissioned in 1944, and in 1946 sold for scrapping. She sunk on her way from Hawaii to california in May 1947.
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I never understood letter codes for ships so I looked it up here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_classification_symbol
Might be useful for others reading this topic who don't know a CV from a CA.
I was amazed to see that the US Navy almost seems to have more different letter codes than it has ships ;-)
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Originally posted by Klum25th
Which ship would win a 1vs1 battle, The Germans Bismarck, or the Japaness Yamato. This would be a great fight to me.
Yamato, by far. Sheer tonnage, which translates into the ability to absorb damage, would just be too much on Yamato's side. Only the big American BBs are likely to beat a Yamato class BB.
I don't have the numbers in front of me here, but if you look at the armor and guns all the Bismark has over Yamato is 3 knots of speed with which to run.
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fleets with historical names too and matching their characteristics bismark, arizona, enterprise etc.
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what about being able to control ships directly? much like the pt boat.
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IF we get a real BB...and IF we get an American one..and IF it's an Iowa-class...
Then...I vote for the USS New Jersey, for two reasons;
1) Most decorated warship in American history (16 battle stars, in 3 conflicts)
2) See if you can guess...;)
PS...hint, hint...betcha' drediock and doobs get it!
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Originally posted by USHilDvl
Then...I vote for the USS New Jersey, for two reasons;
1) Most decorated warship in American history (16 battle stars, in 3 conflicts)
That is incorrect.
The Carrier USS ENTERPRISE CV-6 is the most decorated ship of any Navy "EVER" with 20 Battlestars, Presidential Unit Citation (PUC) and Navy Unit Citation (NUC) just in WW2.
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/n80000/n89185.jpg)
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Bah.
I'm not sure of the Missouri's battle record, but I DO know she's by far the most famous of the Iowas. She's the Last of the Dreadnaughts. Japan's surrender was signed on her decks. She fought with distinction in WWII, Korea and Gulf War I (she also served in Vietnam, didn't she?) and was the first naval ship to have enemy combatants surrender to radio controlled drones (Gulf War I). Make the AH2 battleship the Mighty Mo!
(Do NOT get me started on that frelling Cher video. BLECH!)
Jester: That's one beautiful lady you got there. They shouldn't have scrapped her. She should be a museum. :mad:
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Originally posted by Saxman
Jester: That's one beautiful lady you got there. They shouldn't have scrapped her. She should be a museum. :mad:
Absolutely agree 1000%.
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if you wish to see a WW2 BB try going to Mobile, AL the B.B. Alabama is there. you also can go in the Drum. heres the site.
USS Alabama (http://www.ussalabama.com/)
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:mad: Dammit...I looked up that stat twice before posting...just to avoid being corrected. Now I go look again, and I find even more legitimate references to her being the most decorated, yet the Enterprise does indeed also make the claim, at 20.
I'm willing to accept that, perhaps, we both are sure we have the right info, but one of us is getting bogus data. I've no idea which one, though. The Internet never fails...:furious
Reason number two still holds, tho!
Big Mo was a great ship, but a lot of her fame was tied to the Japanese surrender (no slight to her outstanding combat record). As I understand the story, tradition would have had the New Jersey given the honor, as she was (as best I know) the most decorated at the time, but President Truman was from Missouri and insisted on his home state namesake.
Anyone traveling through the NYC area should try and get a look-see at her. She's now a museum at the Philadelphia Shipyards on the Delaware River in Camden.
Anyway..I love the Iowa class BB. Gimme that, better muzzle and hit flashes, and a properly rendered sounset for her. And more good targets!
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No doubt, the "BIG E" is the Queen of the Hill with 20 Battlestars. She was seeing action while the Jersey was still on paper!
Yea damn shame they didn't save her and the Saratoga. Real loss.
Try HAZEGREY.ORG you can read the "OFFICIAL" histories of every USN ship there and most have their awards listed.
:aok
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There was an idea that came up before of spending perks on your own DD or cruiser. None of this is going to happen for a year or so if ever but most of them would make the MA far less stagnant than it is now.
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I agree that it would be much better to have BBs in the game. The CLs are too easy to sink, and they do not have enough AA to really help the CV. It is also a good idea to be able to man all the 5" guns, on the CL, and on the DDs.
Often, there are no slots left to help defend a task group, and that makes killing the CV mush to easy, especially if the CL has been sunk.
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Originally posted by KTM520guy
+1 for battleships.
We need The Big MO
(http://www.ussmissouri.com/images/bow.jpg)
agreed!!!!! Mo was my fav BB.
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how about USS Massachussetts? http://www.battleshipcove.org/
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Isn't the Massachussetts a pocket battleship? Not a full size Iowa class, I'm pretty sure.
Took my son to stay overnight on the USS Mass. some years ago, as a Cub Scout. Battleship cove is a good exhibit, and worth a look.
Trying to keep an eye on a pack of Cub Scouts...on a battleship...all night long...not gonna do that again :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by USHilDvl
Isn't the Massachussetts a pocket battleship? Not a full size Iowa class, I'm pretty sure.
Gods no. The "Pocket Battleship" was a British term for something Germany did to try to get around their WWI agreements. It was a glorified heavy cruiser. The German "Pocket Battleships" weighed 12,100 tons, less than some Japanese heavy cruisers.
Just because the Massachusetts isn't a 50,000 ton monster doesn't mean it isn't a full battleship.
The Massachusetts weighs about 35,000 tons, more than any WWI Dreadnought I can think of and almost as much as Britain's biggest WWII battleships, the King George Vs.
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off topic-ish.... what ships are still in pearl harbor? I am going to Hawaii in April and i kinda want to see a real BB.
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USS Missouri is there.
You can also see the USS Arizona & USS Utah still there from Dec. 7, 1941.
Plus, surely some of the Pacific Fleet will be in so there will be lots to see.
Take lots of pictures! :aok
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I remember Oklahoma had to be broken up because she blocked part of the harbor, but do they still have any of her wreckage on site for viewing?
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Don't think so, she sunk while being taken back to the West Coast to be scrapped.
Her guns and the Arizona's were taken off to make Coast Defense batteries but don't know if any of them are still around.
There is some of Arizona's upperworks stored somewhere either on Ford Island or some other part of the harbor (behind the memorial I think) but it is not accessable to the public.