Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on December 26, 2001, 04:45:00 PM
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OK all you "PC haters" - what the heck is wrong with it? I don't mean the psychopathic PC diatribe like in the title of this post. I mean the REAL reason for it. To make sure that we are not knowingly or unknowingly causing harm to a group of people through tasteless, incorrect or ignorant labels.
ie:
boy - Black man
chief - any American Indian
Babe - a woman (especially degrading to a stranger)
monkey - black children
or gender based labels such as:
Fireman
Postman
Doorman
Boxboy
etc.
It wasn't that long ago when women were looked upon as strange to even try to become firefighters or police officers. Look at the figures from 20 years ago and today. Now PC speak wasn't the only reason changes occurred, but it did open the eyes of the public to the commonly held misconseptions that pervaded our society. Well? Whats wrong with it?
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The problem is it's carried too far. Even your post is out of line 'black man' is now offensive it's Afro-American.
My son was in advanced studies throughout school, when a teacher expressed how well he was doing I off-handedly (oh wait did I just slam lefties) mentioned that he has always been fairly smart.
I was informed that they aren't using 'that term' anymore. Apparently by acknowledging that he is smart you are implying that other kids are unsmart or dumb.
The new term is 'additionally abled'
People are no longer short but vertically challenged.
No longer clumsy but nimbly challenged.
Screw it just cut the crap and say what you mean. If somebody gets offended their skin probably needed thickening anyway
[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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LOL.
I work with a Somalilander (NOT Somalian as he's so fond of pointing out), a Nigerian, a Surinamee, and a Jamaican. If I called any of em Afro-Americans I'd get a real wierd look.
They call me 'white boy', the Jamaican is a very dark shade so he gets called 'black boy' by the others. I dont mind, they dont mind, it aint no big deal. In this office I'm an ethnic minority. :D. The Nigerian claims to be a Zulu but then we found out he's was born in Brixton (GB) and only went to Nigeria once.....and Zulus aint from Nigeria anyway.....so he gets called 'white boy' as well when we wanna annoy him. ;)
Political correctness is only needed when someone clearly isnt. In this place none of us give crap about that and call each other whatever we like.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Swoop ]
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
The problem is it's carried too far. Even your post is out of line 'black man' is now offensive it's Afro-American.
My son was in advanced studies throughout school, when a teacher expressed how well he was doing I off-handedly (oh wait did I just slam lefties) mentioned that he has always been fairly smart.
I was informed that they aren't using 'that term' anymore. Apparently by acknowledging that he is smart you are implying that other kids are unsmart or dumb.
The new term is 'additionally abled'
People are no longer short but vertically challenged.
No longer clumsy but nimbly challenged.
Screw it just cut the crap and say what you mean. If somebody gets offended their skin probably needed thickening anyway
[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
As an American first and foremost, I am offended by the term "African American" and I demand you not use it.
....THAT is and example of PC and whats wrong with it. True, I can't stand the term, but who am I to tell you not to use it?
Tumor
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Hey Swoop, I hear you. I've a black friend who jokingly calls me whitey from time to time. Thing is he's my friend.
If another black person called me whitey I'd be pissed, as I wouldn't know the context it was in. Was it an insult? Was he kidding?
As far as PC terms are concered, I use them with strangers, as I don't feel any need to insult strangers, so, I do my try my best not to. If it's someone that I know that won't be insulted or understand the context within which I'm using a non PC term, then I'll feel free to do so.
[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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The irony for me, is that the PPCM who call for understanding. Are the last people on earth to offer it.
I was setting in a restaurant a couple of years ago. A sweet, little gray haired, old lady made her way all the way across this, a very large place. It took her a good 5 minutes to do so. Finally ariving at my table she announced that I should "put the diddlying weed out". I pointed out one of the many Smoking Section signs hanging in the area. She said. " I don't care. Put it out our I will slap it out of your mouth Pointing at the Smoking Section sign again, I said "Get the diddly out of my face our I will show you something really offensive". Apparently my feelings on the matter must have show on my face. She got quite pale and shambled off.
I am old enough to remember White Only signs above drinking fountains. When I see a no smoking sign. I get the same feeling of outrage, at the unfairness of it, that those old signs gave me as a boy.
Over the years, black people have committed every crime imaginable against whites. For decades these have been committed at a rate far in excess of the black populations numbers. To hold black people, in general, responsible for these criminal acts is wrong. And is called racial profiling.
Over the years, white people have committed every crime imaginable against blacks. To hold white people, in general, responsible for these criminal acts is called politically correct.
I could go on pointing out these little inconsistencies until my fingers grew numb. Not much point. Understanding is a one way street with Perfectly PC mutants.
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PC is a justified hypocricy.
Do you want me to call black people in Moscow "Afro-Africans"?
Shit, I was heavily injured once when I tried to protect a black guy from boneheads (gopniki), but I call black people "negro" (nyegr) because it is a Russian word for Africans. And "black" (chyorniy) is an offencive nickname for people from Caucasus.
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Do we all get the same discovery channel? (I'm in Denmark).
There's a program being aired at the moment called "blue eyes", produced by Gary Oldman.
It's about an American teacher, a little old lady; that teaches "the racist experience".
A fantastic program, and what seems to be a gifted teacher. Watch it if you can.
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Getting offended by being called whitey?
Sheeit, I've been called cracker, pastry, spook, saltine, honkey, whiteboy, etc.
It's the color of my damn skin, I got no reason to be offended. I sure as hell am not offended.
I guess that's what seperates people who grow up as a minority and people who grow up in the majority. I was born and raised in Washington, DC- when you are talking the "minorities", in my neighborhood, *I* was the minority.
It's one thing to call a black man a cupcake, and another thing to call him a black man (as opposed to boy, african or darky) if you don't know him.
The only people who get offended by that are lil' whiney sweetyes, and they don't deserve to breath the same air as me. You got offended? Oh no! I get told things everyday of my life that offend me, but I don't get my panties in a bunch and whimper about it or call up Jesse Jackson to defend my honor. I hoist my nuts over my shoulder and carry on, that's what's it's all about. Not letting garbage get to you- because that's all it's intended to do!! Or have people forgotten that in the last 20 years???????
Do they make a "reality" pill? I sure as hell think they need to!!!
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Getting offended by being called whitey?
Sheeit, I've been called cracker, pastry, spook, saltine, honkey, whiteboy, etc.
It's the color of my damn skin, I got no reason to be offended. I sure as hell am not offended.
I guess that's what seperates people who grow up as a minority and people who grow up in the majority. I was born and raised in Washington, DC- when you are talking the "minorities", in my neighborhood, *I* was the minority.
It's one thing to call a black man a cupcake, and another thing to call him a black man (as opposed to boy, african or darky) if you don't know him.
The only people who get offended by that are lil' whiney sweetyes, and they don't deserve to breath the same air as me. You got offended? Oh no! I get told things everyday of my life that offend me, but I don't get my panties in a bunch and whimper about it or call up Jesse Jackson to defend my honor. I hoist my nuts over my shoulder and carry on, that's what's it's all about. Not letting garbage get to you- because that's all it's intended to do!! Or have people forgotten that in the last 20 years???????
Do they make a "reality" pill? I sure as hell think they need to!!!
-SW
yep, guess they can't do what we did:
kick their arse if the odds were there or keep quiet and walk alittle faster if they weren't..
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Growing up as a white minority in whatever section of the Country you may be from is not the same as growing up as a minority or group that has been persecuted for generations. Do you honestly think "whitey" and "cupcake" are equivalent terms?
Yes, the civil rights movement helped to end the legal persecution of a race, but there is still an undercurrent of racism running through our land that is perfectly obvious when you open your eyes to see.
Here is an example of how the PC movement assisted us in our perception of our fellow humans:
20 yrs ago - A black man held up a liquor store today.
Today - A man held up a liquor store today, he was decribed as black...etc.
If you don't see the difference you are not trying.
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I think you are trying too hard to see a difference. He's a man either way, the way to describe him is just changed around in it's order.
That's the difference between someone who grows up as a white minority versus some white guy who grows up in the boondocks with other races as minorities.
Fact is, PCness does more to segregate and force viewing each other in terms of sex, race or religion than it does to congregate us in a big 'ol boiling pot of color.
This undercurrent of racism is something I experienced growing up- it was directed at me. I no longer experience it since I am grown up, because it ain't so easy to call someone your size a _____ versus someone who's much younger.
You can beat around the bush all you want, change the order of the words, and use any description you want- in the end it all comes down to what sex was the person? What color was the person? What height? Build? etc
The first two do a lot more to narrow down the search than anything else.
I was born and raised in Washington, DC and still work here. Maybe my thoughts on PC garbage are based on the fact I was raised to treat people with respect if they showed it to me. I am not gonna sugar coat something just because, and I sure as hell am not gonna sugar coat something if someone's being a salamander- don't care about sex,color, religion.
-SW
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Originally posted by easymo:
When I see a no smoking sign. I get the same feeling of outrage, at the unfairness of it, that those old signs gave me as a boy.
What is so unfair about them? Your smoking habit is really invasive towards the other people. It's not like they can ignore noxious fumes that you produce.
If someone stranger derived enjoyment from coming to you and poking you with his fist or a pole in your solar plexus hard enough to cause headache and nausea and cause admittedly minor but cumulative and lasting damage, you would not like it. But when you do it to others with poisonous chemical substances that cause fire alarms to go off and birds drop dead in their cages, that is somehow OK?
You are given the smoking areas that normal people know to keep away from, be happy with that.
There are quite a few limitations imposed on us for the sake of safety and well-being of others that affect really important aspects of our lifes, not just habits:
- shooting firearms on dedicated ranges, not in residential areas;
- driving cars in the street, not on the sidewalk - and even there in very specific ways (speed, direction);
- washing cars in rivers and disposing of oil and other pollutants there;
The lady had no more business interfering with your smoking in the designated area then she would trying to stop me from making noises with AK-47 on the range or driving my car in the street. If she could still fill the smoke where she sat, she had to take it with the restaurant owner or city officials for improper ventilation arrangements.
That does not mean that causing discomfort to others in public areas is your right.
BTW - I do not want to make an impression that I am against smoking. I think it is extremely beneficial to our society. I would never try to dissuade anyone who is not my friend or relative from it.
On more general topic of PC - it is in line with the tendency in US society over the last 50 years to codify human behavior in a set of laws, rules, regulations and customs that try to ensure total fairness and leave no place for uncertainity and desision.
That is not going to work any better then communism did.
A person is offencive when he/she wants to offend. It is perfectly possible to offend someone without using any words from the "list" - sometime just with a look or attitude.
If another person wants to take offence, he/she will find a pretext to interpret any action/inaction as offencive.
miko
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Tah Gut, I have never known boy to be a racial slang. As a matter of fact, it is not and never has been. It is or can be an insult, as it is calling someone a child, but this is regardless of the race of the recipient and dependent upon context.
The fact you would list it among words not to say is a very strong factor driving opposition to PC.
As for words, gender is a fact of all romance languages, and we will have to learn to live with the fact that the masculine form of a word can indicate males, or it can simply indicate people, with no reference to gender. Or, we can waste the next 500 years trying to restructure the English language from the top down, worrying someone might get offended.
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i honestly think pc speak does more to drive a wedge between groups then heal anything. why would i bother talking(sociely) to people who get offended or constantly try to 'enlighten' me as to the proper term for their or any other group. frankly when i meet people like that (of any race, or group) i take care of whatever business that put me in contact with them, then get the hell away from them and avoid them at all costs.
they make me uncomfortable, but that doesn't seem to matter. why is it my obligation to jump through hoops to learn the term of the week for groups (who can't seem to hold onto a discriptive term for themselves with out it eventually feeling like an insult) just so they can feel comfortable.
why should i care if someone who makes me feel uncomfortable is comfortable?
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Tah Gut, I agree with a lot of what you say. I think racism, sexism, etc... is still around -- it is just less overt than it was in the past. I think we still have to worry about bigotry in this country.
But does making a remark about someone's gender, race, ethnicity necessarily make you a bigot? In my dictionary, a bigot is defined as "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." I'd say no it doesn't, it could just make you guilty of making an insensitive comment. There is a big difference between the two, but you could never tell that by the reactions you see by the political leadership of the offended group and by the media.
When someone makes such a remark, no effort is made to determine whether that person is truly a bigot. No one asks or tries to find out how that person treats people of whatever group they offended on a daily basis. No one looks at extenuating circumstances that might have led to the words being said. Instead, that person is instantly viewed and portrayed as if they hated and despised every member of that group. They are stigmatized and most likely fired if their actions become public. How is that fair or right?
As it is, there is no sense of proportion in the reactions to a simple mistake as opposed to deep hatred. There needs to be. That great misdeeds were done to these people in the past does not absolve them of the responsibility to wield their political and economic power in this day and time with the same restraint, fairness and tolerance that they rightfully demand of others.
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TahGut is awesome! :)
He just doesnt get it how fun he is.
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It is the self-righteous hypocrisy of the PC that makes then appear to be such total, morons.
The old lady mentioned above left the restaurant. Got into a huge SUV, and drove off. That thing will pump more toxins into the air in one day, then my smoking will do in 10 life times.
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TahGut is awesome!
He just doesnt get it how fun he is.
Picking at scabs creates scars.
;)
as for PC... I ain't buying it. I will go to the grave kicking and squeaking about the toejamheads in this world that just HAVE to stick their obnoxious noses into the private parts of their neighbors for their own gleeful entertainment.
Every year that goes by hearalds yet another batch of folks that feel it's their RIGHT to pronounce judgement on each other based on nothing more or less significant than what they eat for breakfast... or if they even EAT breakfast. "fediddleers a gawdamned heratic.. he eats wheaties and LIKES it!"
Anybody that wants to sniff my shorts had better be willing to wear em.
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
I get told things everyday of my life that offend me, but I don't get my panties in a bunch and whimper about it or call up Jesse Jackson to defend my honor.
-SW
So, you let people insult you with impunity? That's fannnntastic! How come, I picture you looking down at your feet (with one big wet tear in your eye) and shuffling away, when they do? Then I guess you go and tell yourself what a huge pair you had for walking(running) away :confused: ;)
Another thing. You make a huge mistake SWulfe, when you ASSume that you are the only person here with any experience with being a minority.
We can make assumptions about other people all day people, and be insulting about it, but...it won't get us anywhere.
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Originally posted by easymo:
The old lady mentioned above left the restaurant. Got into a huge SUV, and drove off. That thing will pump more toxins into the air in one day, then my smoking will do in 10 life times.
So everyone that uses PC terms are hypocrits? Kind of a sweeping generalisation isn't it?
Hang, for the record, I believe that using or not using PC terms is a personal choice. I do advocate it and if I'm asked why I do I will explain. But, I'm not going to badger some else about it.
I think alot people here are against people telling them to be politcally correct, then political correctness in and of itself. I mean trying to tell me how to act, ie. Don't be PC., WOULD be hypocracy.
[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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LOL! Call me anything you like. I reserve the right to react; up and including stuffing your head into a cammode and flushing yer toejam soaked brain to a more enlightened place.
You wanna embrace PC? Kewl. Beware of those that don't.
:D
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Yeah, hey, thanks for completely missing the point of my post. :rolleyes:
I was basically saying the same thing you just did.
:p
[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Still missed it.
I'll squint and read it again... maybe your reply was lost in PC double-speak.
Hang, for the record, I believe that using or not using PC terms is a personal choice. I do advocate it and if I'm asked why I do I will explain. But, I'm not going to badger some else about it.
Hmmm... that; immedately before this...
I think alot people here are against people telling them to be politcally correct, then political correctness in and of itself. I mean trying to tell me how to act, ie. Don't be PC., WOULD be hypocracy.
What?? LOL! Yer PC keyboard stuck again? Thrawn, my friend; I apologise if I mistook your PC response as a PC dodge.
;)
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I think alot people here are against people telling them to be politcally correct, then political correctness in and of itself. I mean trying to tell me how to act, ie. Don't be PC., WOULD be hypocracy."
So if someone just wants to be left alone. And you insist on harassing them over some imagined slight. If they tell you to piss off, they are being hypocrites?
You are like a poster boy for the PC mutants.
[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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PC is the brainchild of college professors who believe in Utopia. There's nothing wrong with that, per say, however many young impressionable adults end up being cheated intellectually after going through a PC oriented "formal" education.
I believe we started on our downward spiral when Greeks and Romans were no longer given credit as builders of Western Civilization. The PC trend has been to validate all civilizations as major contributing factors in our modern world. I, for one, believe the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations were instrumental in our political and cultural evolution, and they were most certainly equal in technology. Is that being PC? I don't know..lol.
These cultures are shunned by the politically correct, because they demonstrate focus and purpose. In my opinion, PC is pie in the sky thinking...or wishful thinking. It is an educational disaster, where some ivy league universities are concerned. So choose your college well. Your education depends on it. Think for yourself and take what the professors say with a grain of salt. LOL :cool:
Les
SCLeslie
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Grun, You crack me up! Did it cross your young mind that maybe I know exactly what I'm doing? I guess not. But I will continue my attempts to break you out of your shell.
I see a lot of anti "PC" posts here, but few have really addressed the opener. I guess the real problem is the definition.
What the heck is PC?
If you ask a conservative it is the great ANTICHRIST perpetrated on the masses by those brainless liberals.
If you ask a liberal he may even say PC doesn't exist at all. That it is all just a call for common courtesy.
IMHO it is obvious that our increased awareness of how groups of people are or have been addressed has been beneficial to all. How could it not be? Anecdotal evidence is irrelevent. What you may have been called in the past or present is irrelevent. Is it right or wrong to be aware of the affect these names have on people? How can you possibly say no?
And if you really want to think....ask yourself why those two letters create such a reaction. Could it be that propaganda is not just the tool of the left?
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
What the heck is PC?
Personal Computer :)
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Are you still looking to restructure the english language into some neutered version of itself as well?
The danger with PC, and I still refer to the use of the word 'boy' in your first post, is that in the interests of avoiding confrontation, you've begun to exponentially add words to the offensive list.
Merely because a racist thinks and calls afro-eurasians idiots does not make idiot a racist word, nor will making the word itself taboo do a single thing about the original racist. Yet one can still argue for the tolerence of PC, and go home at night kidding themselves that they've somehow made the world a better place (as opposed to reduced the words and verbal flexibility within their native language).
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OK Fatty, Lets say the word "boy" should not be on the list. (I disagree but lets just say)
So now the real problem with "PC" is how it neuters the language.
Merely because a racist thinks and calls afro-eurasians idiots does not make idiot a racist word, nor will making the word itself taboo do a single thing about the original racist. Yet one can still argue for the tolerence of PC, and go home at night kidding themselves that they've somehow made the world a better place (as opposed to reduced the words and verbal flexibility within their native language).
Did Fatty make a point there? Lets break it down:
He proved through example that the word "idiot" cannot be placed in the racist category simply because a racist said it. I agree. And he also said that making the word taboo will not change the racist. Also very true.
Now do those 2 truths prove that PC is "reducing the verbal flexibility of our language"? Hardly.
If someone is retarded, do you call them an idiot? Of course you don't, because you now know it is wrong and hurtful to them. The word idiot is still available in the language if you want to use it. (If that isn't a straight line I don't know what is) Before the PC movement, which actually grew out of the womens movement of the late 60's, "idiot" was a commonly used term in mental hospitals.
The idea is not to change the racist, it is to change the general perception of the public.
Fireman - Firefighter
How many women firefighters are there in the country? Way more then 20 years ago. Did changing the name have any affect on this? Possibly, and here is how.
A young girl no longer is discouraged in her dreams of becoming a firefighter because the word is no longer gender based. The change in name had no affect on any sexist, or on most people who were used to the word, fireman. The changes are much more long term, and highly beneficial.
Is our language neutered? Hell no! I also think many people have gone too far with the PC thing. But even this has helped us to add many descriptive phrases to our language.
Vertically challenged - (not enough alt)
Spacially disabled - (not enough E)
Overly terrestrial - (GV syndrome)
;)
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I have never cared about PC. I'll use it if I'm being polite, but I don't care if I offend someone. I hate PC. <G> :D
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Ah Thrawn you're such a maroon.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Ah Thrawn you're such a maroon.
-SW
A fugitive Black slave in the West Indies in the 17th and 18th centuries?...NAZI NAZI NAZI!!! :eek: :D
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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It's all verbal masturbation and a convenient excuse to TALK about issues confronting our society instead of WALKING a path which will actually yield results and help end forms of prejudice.
Talk is cheap whether it is politically correct or not.
Rude
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So if someone just wants to be left alone. And you insist on harassing them over some imagined slight. If they tell you to piss off, they are being hypocrites?
No, I saying that someone who doesn't like people telling him what to do, would be a hypocritic if he told me not to be politicaly correct.
Thrawn, my friend; I apologise if I mistook your PC response as a PC dodge.
Sorry, what do you think I'm dodging?
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Can a retarded person not act like an idiot, or are we just not allowed to speak it if they do?
And any girl that didn't become a fireman because of the word form is far too fragile for me to justify paying to be responsible for the lives of others.
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]
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one of my favorite bumperstickers
'politicly correct is just political'
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Your on the 20th floor of a building. Legs broke. its on fire. You have 2 choices to carry you down. A 120lb. woman. Or a 220lb man. Who ya gonna call. Come on. Be honest.
Thats whats wrong with the PC (politically challenged). No common sense.
Besides. Heavy lifting, and hand to hand combat is about all we have left. If we let them take that, they may find a way to get rid of us all together.
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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easymo,
last i heard the old 'firemans carry' is a thing of the past. now they put one of your ankles under each arm and drag you down the stairs(head banging on every step i assume). at least thats what i was told the policy is around here, something about making procedure meet lower strength requirments
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Swell :(
I once watched a film, of firemen running up a 5 story training tower, with a huge hose on their shoulder. It looked very tough. Then came the girls turn. She could not pick the hose UP. Could not get it off the ground.
Well, no matter. When the folks die. It will be for good old PC.
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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Originally posted by easymo:
Swell :(
I once watched a film, of firemen running up a 5 story training tower, with a huge hose on their shoulder. It looked very tough. Then came the girls turn. She could not pick the hose UP. Could not get it off the ground.
Well, no matter. When the folks die. It will be for good old PC.
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
Ya but,...if she CAN pick the hose up??
Tumor
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Originally posted by Tumor:
Ya but,...if she CAN pick the hose up??
Tumor
Here in Ottawa our firefighters all have to do the same physical test regardless of sex. Either you can do the job or you can't.
easymo, you are being inductivly biases. Because one women couldn't pass the test non can. Come on be honest. Would you rather have a 120 man carry you or a 220 women? No fat jokes please. ;)
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If the term were "Politely Correct" rather than "Politically Correct" in both name and implementation and without further agenda I could get behind it.
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I find the term "people of color" offensive. As being not a person of color, I must be bland and dull. That might be true, but not due to my lacking brown/black pigment.
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Ya but,...if she CAN pick the hose up??
Tumor
If a woman can pass the test (without watering down the test to make it 'fair' for women) then I’d say she deserves the job.
I’m a solid believer in equal work for equal pay.
The problem is its very rarely equal work for equal pay.
I work in an industry where there are still very few women. Out of the 8 or 10 that I know personally maybe 1 actually does the same work as men, 3 or 4 think they do the same work as men (not realizing that they just don't get assigned the harder work, not really their fault though) and the rest blatantly use their sex to get easy assignments or have a guy come help them when they get to the more physical part of the work.
And if she actually does have the slightest grasp of the work to be done they give her a radio and make her 'leadman' so they don't run the risk of getting sued for that 'glass ceiling' toejam.
I spent the first couple years of my apprenticeship dragging weldingleads, hauling heavy loads or lifting them on ropes, and lots of heavy grinding. And most of the new apprentices get the same thing I did.
The women usually get firewatch (stand around and make sure the working guy starts no fires while working), or hole watch (make sure everybody who goes into a confined space is accounted for) these jobs used to go to the old-timers who where broken up from years of hard work and had to last until their pensions kicked in. now they go to women and the old-timers mostly have to bust their bellybutton right until the day they retire.
Yep, equal work for equal pay would be cool
btw for those of you who doubt it or don't work in a heavy industry, try this.
next time you drive past a road construction projct do a head count.
how many men on the job?
how many women?
how many women with tools in her hand?
haw many women standing well away from the work with the stop sign in her hand?
flaging is another example of a job that used to either be given to old-timers or the guys working would take turns at it so it was like a break from the harder work, now they give the job to a woman and the guys work all day every day upto retirement.
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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"Would you rather have a 120 man carry you or a 220 women? "
How many 220lb woman (muscle, not fat} have you personally met. There is that total inability to grasp common sense again.
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Originally posted by easymo:
"Would you rather have a 120 man carry you or a 220 women? "
How many 220lb woman (muscle, not fat} have you personally met. There is that total inability to grasp common sense again.
Why are you avoiding the question?
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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How can i choose something that does not exist in my experience. There are people that claimed to have seen the Yeti also. But no one is clamoring for there equal rights. (probably because the PC crowd cant decide between endangered species, and opressed minority.) Anyway, if we are going to play make belive. I choose the 300lb yeti.
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So you honestly believe that there is no woman, out the 35 thoundsand millions of them, that could do the job of a fire fighter. Where the hell is your vaunted common-sense now?
What scares you so much about the idea of a female firefighter?
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http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/4699/contacts/conaa.html (http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/4699/contacts/conaa.html)
5ft. 98lbs?
I am 6'1" weight 218lbs. How the hell is this little girl going to carry me out of a high rise. Thats what im afraid of.
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You seem to be spinning your tires here. If you honestly believe that, out of the 3.5 billion women on this planet, none can do the job of a firefighter, you are simply and irrational chauvanist...and it's pointless discussing this with you.
Oh yeah, and as far as hand-to-hand combat, tell that to Shannon Lee.
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For once you are right.
I based my arguments on real world examples. You based yours, in typical liberal fashion, on wishful thinking, and supposition.
Talking to a PC mutant IS spinning my wheels
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TahGut used the word "human" notice the man part, its gender specific, hes so uncool.........
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Originally posted by Thrawn:
If you honestly believe that, out of the 3.5 billion women on this planet, none can do the job of a firefighter, you are simply and irrational chauvanist...and it's pointless discussing this with you...
Give it up Thrawn, how silly can you get?
Ok, we go your way. I'm sure that we can find 3-5 (maybe even more than 13) strong enough women (who had always dreamed of being a fireperson), among the 3.5 billion.
I saw some training "firePERSON'S" documentaries, where the female "firePERSON", could not even hold a ladder nor a hose. Actually SHE was holding on to the hose, but the hose was painting the sky and SHE was flying holding for HER life, not thge victims. Thanks a lot, remind me to hire my own, personal firefigting unit.
Men and women are not inter-changable. We are made this way, women have a role it this reality and men a role in it it too.
"Two Mommies" and/or "Two Daddies" are not not a substitute for a Mother and a Father. It is nothing to do with a gay/lesbian thing. It is just that Fathers and Mothers pay attention to different things in life, and there will be more then a few occasions in your life, where your own child will ask you (or your spouse only) to accept a secret (don't tell Mom/Dad thingie),
Common courtesy and politeness = yes
PC = crap
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One more, and this is for the readers in general.
If you do a search on me. You will find that i have never posted a doubt about women's courage, intelligence, or willingness to serve. It is only their upper body strength that I doubt. Sending a woman into a bad situation. Where she doesn't have a fighting chance, only because of the way she is designed. Is just insane. Its like blaming her for not kicking the toejam out of that 200lb rapist that attach her. That is just nuts. I have 2 daughters, and 2 grand-daughters. I don't want them to ever be put into a situation where the might end up in hand to hand combat. Or spending the rest of their life feeling like toejam, because they know that guy wouldn't have died, if they had been strong enough to carry him out of that burning building. Beyond the obvious limitations mother nature has put on them. I want them to have no limitations at all. If the technology is invented where they can do these jobs( lighter hose, some kind of mechanical litter, that sort of thing) I have no problem with woman firefighters.
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Men tend to be stronger and faster than women, women tend to be better at low exertion long endurance activities.
This is a scientifically proven fact. Tend means average- as in how "normal" people are.
PC cant change that.
PC can go to hell.
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I hate all Serbs
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Why would you hate all Serbs?
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"Why would you hate all Serbs?"
Because there aren't enough Croats to go round.
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"Why would you hate all Serbs?"
Cuz you say we don't have to be politicly correct no more... Great! cause I really don't like the serbs.. Plus... read Noal Malcom's Book, "Short history of Kosovo"
10Bears
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Originally posted by mietla:
Give it up Thrawn, how silly can you get?
Yo, mietla...*snap* WAKE UP. The orignal contention that there were no strong women wasn't mine. It was easymo's. So direct your comments there.
Secondly, where did you get the numbers 5 or 13? Let me guess you MADE THEM UP? If you want to base your arguements on fantasy, well I guess there is no way I can refute them, and I'll leave them in the land of make believe.
For the rest of you. Yes, ON AVERAGE men are, pound per pound, stronger then women. And I never said differently, because it has absoufreakinglutely NOTHING to do with this arguement. If you had been following it, you would have realised that is about the sub-set of females that DO have the physical strength to preform the duties of a firefighter.
[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Then firefighter strength tests shouldnt be changed as they have been lowered to make it easy for women to pass. Where are these strong women, why arent they protesting.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Then firefighter strength tests shouldnt be changed as they have been lowered to make it easy for women to pass. Where are these strong women, why arent they protesting.
I completely agree with you. :eek:
<edit> Like I said, in Ottawa anyway, we have standardized testing, I know of at least 2 women that have passed it.</edit>
[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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10Bears, that cracked me up, man.