Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mechanic on December 13, 2005, 08:44:25 PM
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Just one thought i had today in millions. not the first time i have thought it but certainly the first instance i have become curious as to your views.
One of, infact the most fantastic thing for me about this virtual war zone is the diversity of nationalities i encounter. there is certainly one participant here at least from every country at conflict between 1914 to 1945.
had i been born 100 years earlier than now i would be trying to kill not only many great people in our community, but many beloved squadmates too.
there is a chance we would come to combat in very similar ways as we do every day, i know i would've sign up to fly and die rather than crawl in the mud and die.
so given these nonsense twists of imagination, how do we truly feel now about what we take so lightly on a day to day basis.
I particularly am interested to hear from the players not from the UK or the USA, but am equally interested to hear what everyone has to say.
how do we feel about what our nations did then, still do now, will almost certainly always do and most probably have always done?
is there anyone old enough here who was alive to see the effects of such a catatrophic and spectacular event?
is there anyone young enough that they should never have to think about what happened?
is there any nation represented here in Aces High that feels they have something they want to say spiritually about what we live to dream about.
on the other hand, that crap did happen like, last millenenyiam so should we even think about it?
well, that leads me to think of a theory whilst typing.
evolutionary culling.
as homo sapiens became the dominant spieces on earth by a very comfortable degree, we evolved to turn our killer instincts on each other to have more room in the best water hole. before we even became civilized, our spieces made self destruction an insticnt. we didnt flock in mass heards, we craved to spread our children and our blood as far and as wide and as strong as possible. and of course killing absolutely anything or anyone that looked threatening.
and why?
because our monkey families were programed to kill each other after they could live without true fear of any other creature on earth. nothing else was going to keep our numbers down but ourselves.
the evolution of us became so intense that we made war and seperation one of our many goals to achieve. along with collecting barganing tokens.
unfortunately the evolution gurus in the center of our earth or in space or heaven or whatever didnt figure just how much we would love to shag and make babies.
at the turn of the last century creation saw the planet project going wrong, evolution beaten, mass over population approaching. every attempt to cull us increasingly through global civil wars up untill '1900 AD' in the history of humans has failed and the population is set to destroy the planet not through war but through arogant lifestyle and a fat belly.
through possesing a human, mother nature forces a war. joan of arch springs to mind. poor lass was burnt alive in her ealry twenties for claiming to be inspired 'by god' to fight off the English heathans. i geuss they put a few extra logs on for her kicking the crap out of their armies with the added insult of being a little girl. she blatantly was nuts, mad, insane. but only to everyone who didnt have to stop and think about it more than the fact that melting flesh smells kinda rank after a bowl of potatoes and some flat ale.
through out history all the chief whackos have claimed to be for a god of somekind. many will be lying. others are infact controlled by a force they cannot understand(evolution) to take the choices they do in life.
hitler didnt pop out of Mrs hitler with plans to cull millions of over energetic and healthy humans in multi national warfare.
no one really has control of their life because we cant plan on what creation will do next. one day sitting on the beach drinking flaming zombies, the next total anihilation as the sea take a very minor and reasonably mild excursion into most of indonesia.
sitting on a bus, bam, bag bomb.
3 days ago a gas cointainer exploded containing such a ridiculous cubic volume of gas that it could be heard in belgium. I was awake at the time and my house shook and the bang was loud as a flashbang in my room with the intesity of bass that only a shock wave can provide to hide the cracking trebles of the igniting atoms. i live a good hour drive from hemel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4521232.stm
the evolution gurus are working harder than ever to make us kill ourselvs and to top it off, make us think its our own idea to keep the vast majority of us not give a damn about much further than what they see, touch, experience and play with.....this is a happy medium for us to get by as a global nation of faux peace....but hardly a solution to our obvious rape of the planet.
I'm sorry, but someone is going to have to die, infact millions of us are.
maybe not today, maybe not before next tuesday, maybe not even till 2019 march 2nd at 02:43 hours...... but one day.
If you beileve in something other than cereal for breakfast, looking forward to another day not giving a damn about anyhting but today. then there is an extremely slim, but glimmering chance that you have read all this word for word. I bid the rest of you a good day and hope you dont ever start thinking enough so that things like this interest you. i truly believe ignorance, even if achieved through perfect self denial, is almost certainly bliss.
and anyway, to the point my brothers and sisters, warfare and killing eachother is unfortunately one of the three sole purposes of our existance here and a micro chip in our evulotion to keep this rock spinning as long as possible be fore it all goes tits up.
the second is to truly do this ----> :D uncontrolably and without having a chance of stopping for at least 5 mins, preferably your entire life with short intervals to explore your less enjoyable emotions. A fellow human that you can achieve a mutal stae of :D with for extended periods is not to be taken for granted.
the third is to see what happens next in this game.
well, thats a little of my view, anyone else have anything they feel compeled to add?
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Well, you certrainly did cover a myriad of topics in that speech. I for one don't have much of a plan for tomorrow, even though I know I should.
Creatures of all kinds have been killing each other since the world began, not just humans. It's animal instinct or some drive that causes many closely related speicies to invade the other's nests, or territories and steal resources and even take slaves (there are a few types of ants that raid other colonies to take larva and use them as slaves when they mature)
We, being sentient, should be able to rationalize and not do such things, but we choose not to, or lack the internal will to do so. Before the days of law and order, religions were developed in an effort to keep society in check, or at least to try. But, it's human nature to not follow rules, so society breaks down and relationships (personal and inter-tribal or international) fail so war begins.
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Actually, I don't really want to get into this discussion in this forum, so I'll just leave what I typed and that's it for now.
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yeah, but only humans kill each other as consistantly and in such quantities.
the vast majority of creatures wont kill their own kind unless forced to. there are exceptions.
honestly aint no preaching too, just my thoughts, i dont expect or hope that anyone agrees or even cares, i enjoyed thinking it, its light hearted and also very cutting.
thanks for the input and if you read it all rod for word then you're a curious soul for sure.
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animals kill for as a necessity. we kill for abstracts. that's the thing that gets me the most.
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thats true, and disturbing, but war and global destuction is different from a serial killer.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
animals kill for as a necessity. we kill for abstracts. that's the thing that gets me the most.
Not always. I recall seeing a film made by a Japanese researcher who was studying chimpanzees. The group he was studying fractured after the dominant male died, about one third going with one male and the other two thirds going with another male. In this film the dominant male of the larger group walked through his group and collected four or five other males. They then went walking in single file along a trail in their territory. They came across a lone male from the other group and all of them charged down the hill at him, caught him and beat him to death.
Now obviously we don't know what actually went through their minds, but from our perspective as humans it sure looked a whole lot like basic tribal warfare.
Of course chimpanzees are the single animal species most like us, so that may not be the best lithmus test for animals as a general rule.
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The "theory" of evolution is absurd.
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Originally posted by DipStick
The "theory" of evolution is absurd.
Nothing I said referred to evolution.
You can think whatever you like about evolution and it matters not a whit to me, but if you think chimps don't show a remarkable genetic similarity to us you're standing on real iffy ground. Make up whatever fairy tale suits you to explain why they do, but that they do is a fact.
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Originally posted by mechanic
..........................
well, thats a little of my view, anyone else have anything they feel compeled to add?
Nope. Evolution , War/Murder , Total Anilation......End of Mankind....
Nope think ya covered it:eek:
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Originally posted by Karnak
Nothing I said referred to evolution.
You can think whatever you like about evolution and it matters not a whit to me, but if you think chimps don't show a remarkable genetic similarity to us you're standing on real iffy ground. Make up whatever fairy tale suits you to explain why they do, but that they do is a fact.
by us do you mean you and your ancestry?
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After reading that, it makes me want to go do things that I always wanted to do. Go sightseeing across country, go exploring old ghost towns and try to picture how things were 100 years ago. Camp out in the mountains, etc. Life is too short the way it is. Keep putting everything off and before you know it, its too late.
Imagine all the missed opportunities and "what if" scenarios that you could of done. Time to start doing the things I want to do before its too late and their gone (or im gone, whichever comes first)
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Dude... puff, puff, pass. Don't bogart. :aok
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I tried to read it all but didn't care.
To those of you that tried to make a religious argument out of this-- You should be ashamed of yourselves.
ESPECIALLY those of you that will tell me to go 'F' myself... your religion doesn't run too deep anyhow.
I believe the Earth is old and you will never agree with me regardless of my 'evidence' and you will tell me its 3000 years young and I won't accept your 'evidence' either... Does anyone REALLY care? I don't.
God hid dinosaur fossils for fun? sure, why not... Because I know if I was omnipotent I'd really feel the need to pander to people who didn't believe in me... WHAT EVER. If God is that shallow I wouldn't believe in him at all.
Anyhow, this topic is the greatest creation of Trolling the internet has ever seen... Congrats Mechanic.
Beyond that, its a stupid degeneration of human beings doing what humans do...
KILL.
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Originally posted by storch
by us do you mean you and your ancestry?
Humans, silly. Chimpanzees and humans have a genetic code that is more than 98% similar. Why that is that so? Well, that is up to you to decide if God just poofed humans and chimpanzees into existance like that or if there is another reason. I am fine with whatever you wish to believe for yourself.
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Originally posted by Kurt
I tried to read it all but didn't care.
To those of you that tried to make a religious argument out of this-- You should be ashamed of yourselves.
ESPECIALLY those of you that will tell me to go 'F' myself... your religion doesn't run too deep anyhow.
I believe the Earth is old and you will never agree with me regardless of my 'evidence' and you will tell me its 3000 years young and I won't accept your 'evidence' either... Does anyone REALLY care? I don't.
God hid dinosaur fossils for fun? sure, why not... Because I know if I was omnipotent I'd really feel the need to pander to people who didn't believe in me... WHAT EVER. If God is that shallow I wouldn't believe in him at all.
Anyhow, this topic is the greatest creation of Trolling the internet has ever seen... Congrats Mechanic.
Beyond that, its a stupid degeneration of human beings doing what humans do...
KILL.
Well I know that killing isn't really on my top 10 priority list of things to do. In fact, considering that I have not heeded past warnings, its amazing I haven't gone blind yet from adhering to my priorities list.
Since I've become omnipotent, I know I enjoy a good Sunday where I go out and hide dinosaur fossils just to give archeologists something to move them from grant to grant. You are saying that you have evidence that the world is old besides the fossils that God hid from you??? :O Do tell.
Truth be told, I think you have some deep rooted issues that have stemmed from your geneology, which no doubt, extends from years and years of sexually opressed monkeys flinging poo at one another. Nevertheless, I think you should really lighten up, Francis, harness all those issues and go unleash some fire and brimstone on all those silly "God-lovers" out there in the AH world. :D
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Bit tangental, but did anyone see the proggie on chimps (iirc) a while back on Discovery? Bunch of stupid monkeys nicking drinks from people at a beach resort, getting hammer drunk and falling over themselves. Some astute individual got the idea to study the monkeys (read that drink and watch monkeys drink on someone else's dime), and claimed that the monkeys in this area drank to excess, drank a little, or abstained entirely in the same percentages as the group of humans they tested.
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QUOTE]God hid dinosaur fossils for fun? sure, why not... Because I know if I was omnipotent I'd really feel the need to pander to people who didn't believe in me... WHAT EVER. If God is that shallow I wouldn't believe in him at all.[/QUOTE]
hehe isnt that a bill hicks qoute
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Originally posted by Karnak
Humans, silly. Chimpanzees and humans have a genetic code that is more than 98% similar. Why that is that so? Well, that is up to you to decide if God just poofed humans and chimpanzees into existance like that or if there is another reason. I am fine with whatever you wish to believe for yourself.
oh, actually *we* are much closer genetically to the bonobo IIRC around 98.4%. while 98.4% is amazing *we* are still profoundly different. let me put things in perspective for myself here. would you accept your significant other to be loyal to you their whole life except 2.6% of the time?
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Originally posted by DipStick
The "theory" of evolution is absurd.
Dipstick, evolution is not a theory! It just happens. We even manipulate it to get seedless watermelons and hybrid fish and many other plants and animals we use as humans. No need to say its absurd or to try and disprove it just because your "faith" does not agree with the natural process. It is ok to have spiritual faith and also acknowlege the process of evolution.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Dipstick, evolution is not a theory! It just happens. We even manipulate it to get seedless watermelons and hybrid fish and many other plants and animals we use as humans. No need to say its absurd or to try and disprove it just because your "faith" does not agree with the natural process. It is ok to have spiritual faith and also acknowlege the process of evolution.
yes it does, it occurs naturally within a species. however one species evolving into a totally different species does not happen and according to the fossil record has never happened. some of us contend that being a darwinist takes a much more liberal and abundant faith than believing in the intelligent design theory. darwinism is a failed religion.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
animals kill for as a necessity. we kill for abstracts. that's the thing that gets me the most.
There are many examples of animals killing for un-necessary reasons. Gaining power and control are usually the reasons. Males fight for territory and the females that are in it. When another male challenges they fight, sometimes with one of them ending up dead or severly mamed. In some cases, the looser goes away and waits a few seasons, only to come back stronger and declare victory over the one that once beat him.
You can look at that as a survival of the fittest kind of thing, but IMO, humans are the same way, only that our "public morals" allow the weak and stupid to thrive as well.
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:huh
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Blahaha
Drugs are bad.
And oh yeah!
Click me. (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/dc.mp3)
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Strangely, this thread offers the greatest evidence of our evolutionary link to chimpanzies than just about anything else I've read. One chimp farted amidst the group, started a fight, and now they're all flinging poo at one another and rolling in feces.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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These are my feelings on the topic. (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/ctpurp.mp3)
Other things to worry about. (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/dollar.wav)
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I hail from the superior race... The QUAHzOMFGWOOOOOWOOOOOOtinites
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the thread is proof that some countries gene pools were allmost devastated by wars and that this is what is left.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/killme.mp3)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Strangely, this thread offers the greatest evidence of our evolutionary link to chimpanzies than just about anything else I've read. One chimp farted amidst the group, started a fight, and now they're all flinging poo at one another and rolling in feces.
-- Todd/Leviathn
:aok
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WOOOOOOOWOOOOOOO (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/streaking.wav)
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But some dinosaurs had feathers!
And explain the duck billed platypus por favor.
*EDIT* This post seemed a bit like I was trolling, I just wanted to point out some absurd animals :noid Can't fit platypus into enough forum posts nowadays.
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Originally posted by storch
however one species evolving into a totally different species does not happen and according to the fossil record has never happened.
You are quite wrong on this. It has not yet been studied to the point where insurmountable evidence would out-weigh present lack of evidence, yet there are studies going on at this present date to collect such data. Just to give you an idea of what type of studies are starting to occur, since the study of macroevolution is just now being helped along by new DNA and genome data, many scientist are tackling the study of macroevolution from this new medium. Take for instance the link between mammals and reptiles, of which the overall macroevolution would rely seeing how much of the "theory" of evolution rests on the idea that reptiles came first, as you have stated there is no fossil evidence of transitional fossil forms. This is simply not true. In the reptilian fetus, two developing bones from the head eventually form two bones in the reptilian lower jaw, the quadrate and the articular. Surprisingly, the corresponding developing bones in the mammalian fetus eventually form the anvil and hammer of the unique mammalian middle ear (also known more formally as the incus and malleus, respectively). There are many other instances where transitional development can be observed in different species including links between the species of great apes.(which includes humans) The evidence of linkage can also be observed on a scale which is grand, yet simplistic. In spite of the extensive variation of form and function among organisms, several fundamental criteria characterize all life. Some of the macroscopic properties that characterize all of life are (1) replication, (2) heritability (characteristics of descendents are correlated with those of ancestors), (3) catalysis, and (4) energy utilization (metabolism). At a very minimum, these four functions are required to generate a physical historical process that can be described by a phylogenetic tree. If every living species descended from an original species that had these four obligate functions, then all living species today should necessarily have these functions (although a somewhat trivial conclusion). Most importantly, all modern species should have inherited the structures that perform these functions. Thus, a basic prediction of the genealogical relatedness of all life, combined with the constraint of gradualism, is that organisms should be very similar in the particular mechanisms and structures that execute these four basic life processes. It is the fact that, we(all living things) are related by these processes, that should stimulate the doubter to be thorough in his research before hinting that the relationship does not exist.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
It has not yet been studied to the point where insurmountable evidence would out-weigh present lack of evidence, yet there are studies going on at this present date to collect such data.
nor will such evidence likely ever be produced. but your are clearly entitled to practice your faith freely in the US. darwinism is a mighty religion, I would wager possibly much more powerful than the other great faiths on the planet. if I may ask, why are your high priests so condescending?
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Originally posted by Karnak
Nothing I said referred to evolution.
You can think whatever you like about evolution and it matters not a whit to me, but if you think chimps don't show a remarkable genetic similarity to us you're standing on real iffy ground. Make up whatever fairy tale suits you to explain why they do, but that they do is a fact.
I was responding to the original post not you.
There are alot of "similar" things in nature, what's your point?
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:confused:
:huh
:O
:noid
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Evolution is a CROCK.
It's a known fact that the Earth is actually the back of a giant tortoise. All "proof" to the contrary is merely smoke and mirrors or ridiculous heresy. The only thing more ridiculous than this supposed "theory" are all those crazy middle-eastern religions extolling the existence of "one true God". Frankly, any religion with only one God must be inferior to any with a pantheon of Gods. And that is a FACT.
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Originally posted by storch
nor will such evidence likely ever be produced. but your are clearly entitled to practice your faith freely in the US. darwinism is a mighty religion, I would wager possibly much more powerful than the other great faiths on the planet. if I may ask, why are your high priests so condescending?
I just gave some of the evidence which is already available. All life forms on this planet are linked, that is a fact! That is not speculation.
You are kidding, right? Darwinism a religion? LMAO!
BTW, I said nothing about Darwin!
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Blahaha
Drugs are bad.
And oh yeah!
Click me. (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/dc.mp3)
:rofl
Adam Sandler is infact a chimp pretending to be a man, and making outrageously funny and cheap movies.
seriously though, im glad to see so many responses, some very interesting view on evolution and war, and god, everything.
maybe i should stuck this in the O'club to draw more of the same crowd. but to be honest there is not one piece of bad taste of sick flaming here, maybe we arnt all doomed to kill each other.
the whole world just needs their own choice of MMOG, chimps and men playing aces high in harmony.
*pass left to sandman*
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Strangely, this thread offers the greatest evidence of our evolutionary link to chimpanzies than just about anything else I've read. One chimp farted amidst the group, started a fight, and now they're all flinging poo at one another and rolling in feces.
-- Todd/Leviathn
i do beg to differ oh mighty top chimp of chimps. i started no fight, i simply expresesed my honest view with a touch of humour.
if anyone is fighting its because we can't help it as a species.
oh yeah you remember that, i forgot, the best solutoin is to make everything around you a joke, isnt that what they teach at BK school?
damn, i wish i could make everything so trivial instead of having a serious boring and obviously stupid existance flinging poo. trouble with thinking too much is you can never go back to never thinking at all.
essentially you and I for instance are the same model of being, funny how we could come to such different view points in such a short space of time. niether of us is right, we just evolved our brain in different directions at some point, most likely very early on in developement in the whom.
anyhow, looks like im starting another fight (stating my view) so i will retract, but in honesty sir, this thread was just an expression of me, a true and realistic serious view of what i was thinking about for a few minutes.
im sorry, im a creative soul, sharing myself and indulging in others is what makes life fun for me.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
These are my feelings on the topic. (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/ctpurp.mp3)
Other things to worry about. (http://www.furballunderground.com/sounds/dollar.wav)
no they aint, those are someone elses feeling on these topics.
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Hello Mechanic,
I'm breaking one of my cardinal rules here and posting with a headache so intense that I can barely see straight, much less think cogently... So my apologies for the quality of the following...
I'm not you are aware of this, but in your stream of consciousness above you have essentially recapitulated some of the primary arguments of what has come to be known as "evolutionary psychology" which claims to be the study of why our genes have evolved to make us behave the way we do. Why, for instance, do "sane" people kill their children, fight wars, and so on?
This discussion used to be handled by theologians and ethicists, but in recent years a number of factors in the academy; the enforced assumption of the non-existance of God, the resulting inability to posit absolutes, and the desire of the physical sciences to provide a unified theory to explain everything (guys like Richard Dawkins are leading that particular charge) have led to the rise of this pseudo-scientific school of philosophy which assumes we are all essentially machines designed by "natural selection" and seeks to explain why our CPUs function they way they do. Although proponents of evolutionary psychology, like Stephen Pinker use traditional terms like "evil" they have taken out a subjective existential meaning. The problem of evil has essentially been removed from debate, because evil doesn't exist and to a great extent, no one is really culpable for their actions - their genes made them do it.
While they claim to be scientific, what they have really done is create a replacement religion, and yes Darwinism is a religious system as many of it's practioners and defenders are willing to admit. As Prof. Michael Ruse, author of a number of works of Darwinian apologetics, including Darwinism Defended, put it:
"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion--a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit in this one complaint . . . the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.”
By his reference to "from the beginning" he is probably making reference to Darwin's popularizer T.H. Huxley, who openly campaigned for evolution becoming the starting place for a new model of philosophy and ethics and religion founded on Darwinism. The committment to Darwinism as a foundation for philosophy can be found in the works of Popper, Skinner, and most of the evolutionists who have tackled philosophy in the 20th and 21st centuries. All of them have embraced the idea articulated by Ruse that "Nevertheless, I have now come to see that our biological origins do make a difference, and that they can and should be a starting-point for philosophy today"
But what kind of philosophy does this committment to "Darwinian natural selection" produce? Well certainly one that is ultimately amoral, arbitrary, and at places violently self-contradictory, and not one in which terms like "rights" or ultimately "right and wrong" have real meaning. I first tackled this hopeless hodgpodge philosopy in writing a review on evolutionary psychologist Stephen Pinker's "How the Mind Works" which had created quite a stir coming as it did immediately after Pinker had published an article in the NYT magazine asserting essentially that genes were the root cause of parents killing their newborns.
Here are some of the relevant sections dealing with why philosophy and ethics founded on Darwinianism is a hopeless endeavor and one in which the proponents openly acknowledge we must assume that which they find to be verifiably false, without even being able to explain why we must act in an ethical fashion in the first place. In other words, ethics in evolutionary psychology is a necessarily an empty game of make-believe:
Pinker obviously understands some of the problems his system creates, he notes that the concept that our genes predispose us to certain actions undercuts any possible basis for "free will and hence moral responsibility"32 In other words, if science certifies that our actions are caused by our "selfish genes" how will we will escape the trap of what Pinker calls "Creeping Exculpation?" This Pinker hopes to do by setting up Science and Morality as "separate spheres of reasoning." But while Science is grounded in Pinker's world on observation, conjecture, and experimentation and is therefore a recapitulation of the "brute facts" of life, ethics is to be grounded on a "idealization of human beings that makes the ethics game playable."33 This "game" of idealizations includes positing things as truth that Pinker's own theories dismiss as nonsense, namely that people are "free, sentient, rational, equivalent agents whose behavior is uncaused." The "game" allows us to come to conclusions that "can be sound even though the world, as seen by science, does not really have uncaused events." Without realizing it, Pinker has reinvented the "double theory of truth" that bedeviled the philosophy and theology of the middle ages. He creates a system of ethics founded on presumptions that his own scientific system says are verifiably false, and then expects people to follow it.
Sadly what Pinker never seems to grasp is that both his ethical and scientific systems are trading entirely on borrowed capital. He frequently uses all manner of phrases in place of the God he seeks to deny, such as "nature", "natural selection" or "Darwinism", all of which he uses as grand forces for producing design. His language is often the language that theists use, but at the critical moment when a theist would invoke the Deity he inserts some neutral force that allows him to maintain his autonomy rather than conceding that the design inherent in the world is a reflection of the fact of the Creator revealed in scripture. It often seems obvious that Pinker sees the prospect of God, made plain by natural revelation, and the gyrations that Pinker goes through to erase him are often baffling. A good example of this occurs in his section on the apparent design inherent in human beings:
"The eye has so many parts, arranged so precisely that it appears to have been designed in advance with the goal of putting together something that sees. The same is true for our other organs. Our joints are lubricated to pivot smoothily, our teeth meet to sheer and grind, our hearts pump blood every organ seems to have been designed with a function in mind. One of the reasons God was invented was to be the mind that formed and executed life's plans. The laws of the world work forward not backwards… What else but the plans of God could effect the teleology (goal-directedness) of life on earth?
Darwin showed what else."34
Pinker's book is brimming with passages like the one above, and each one is a testament to the fact that Pinker presupposes the falsity of Christian theism. He speaks of "laws of the world" and at the same time he denies the only possible giver and foundation for these laws. He admits that there is a "goal directedness" to life on earth and then immediately searches for an alternate solution to the obvious answer that presents itself. The fact of complex design screams at him from every facet of creation, and Pinker sees it as a verification of natural selection, and a proof that God cannot possibly exist. As Andrew Ferguson put it "It is one of the many curiosities of Darwinism that the more the world shows signs of design, the more it disproves a Designer of the world."35
32 Pinker, How the Mind Works, 54
33 Ibid., 55
34 Ibid., 156
35 Ferguson, How Steven Pinker’s Mind Works
So you may choose to go down the "our genes make us fight for the watering hole" road as an explanation for our behavior and eliminate any non-mechanical answers to why we do what we do, but be warned, followed to its ultimate end the kind of non-ethics Nietzche proposed becomes more and more coherent. If I'm programmed to kill you and take your resources and you have no absolute rights, and there is no absolute right or wrong, then things like the Holocaust and other Genocides are ultimately simply outgrowths of a highly systematic application of our "programming." Besides as you pointed out, "they cull the weak" and who are we to stand in the way of the desires of the pitiless god of Natural selection?
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
...snip...
So you may choose to go down the "our genes make us fight for the watering hole" road as an explanation for our behavior and eliminate any non-mechanical answers to why we do what we do, but be warned, followed to its ultimate end the kind of non-ethics Nietzche proposed becomes more and more coherent. If I'm programmed to kill you and take your resources and you have no absolute rights, and there is no absolute right or wrong, then things like the Holocaust and other Genocides are ultimately simply outgrowths of a highly systematic application of our "programming." Besides as you pointed out, "they cull the weak" and who are we to stand in the way of the desires of the pitiless god of Natural selection?
- SEAGOON
In fact, even a superficial reading of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich would clearly convince that the social application of Neitche's thoughts were direct and immediate drivesr for Hitlers choices and his view of himself.
If we grant that our "conciences" relflect eveolutionary programming for individual and social advantage of the species, how can we call Hitler anything more than dysfunctional? Right and wrong would be meaninigless with out an external set of rules, not subject to the desires of a culture..... and dont forget, Nazi Germany WAS a self determined culture, so sholuldnt the world at large have a nonjudgemental diverse view of its choices?
...Or, are we willing to consider that there is such a thing as absolute truth, not subject to individual desires and interpretations?
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well this is a very good post for a head ache seagoon, and imformative. I have little to no knoledge of many philosophers or historians so i am in no way stating anything, ceartainly not that hitler was good or anything although simaril bring up a good point. had nazi germany existed 150 years before would it not have been expected that a temendous and strong military force would bring havoc to the 'infidels'?
what I'm getting at i suppose, with retrospect, is that it seems many people in history have cause majoy suffering through messages from many different gods. these days in the non-fearing 1st world we are more arogant and defencive to the words and thoughts in our darkest and lightest places.
is there something to be said for why a person become a killer, a rapist, a dictator?
everyone on earth understands the futility of war yet will never cease to partake in them, support them, march around saying they are terrible, sit on our tulips and wait for the killing to continue.
it is our fate, peace is being diverted by power we do not understand to stop us detroying the rest of the planet.
its more an idea for fiction writting or something, but still, worth thinking about.
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Man what a gloomy outlook on life!!! Guess this is the time of the year for that though. Christmas season can be very melancholy for some folks, and I include myself in that mindset. However I've discovered that working on something like a project takes my mind off my feelings of hopelessness.
I'd wager that with more exercise and a purpose to work toward or a goal in mind, might give a brighter outlook on things. Anyway that's my .02 and salute Mechanic. Your post is thought provoking, but at the same time almost requires too much thinking. I've come to the conclusion that to make the world a better place begins with my effort, mine alone. It won't happen here on this BB because talk is what it's worth. As is thinking.:)
I don't think it is in man's best interest to war with each other. Mankind figured out a long time ago that survival was best served by getting along with the neighbors. This is the evolutionary nature of man, if you want to call it that. It has purpose and ensures survival. Even with war sometimes. Peace is not the absence of war. Slaves exist under those conditions. Peace is respect by others who think you have a good sense of justice.
Les
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good post leslie.
rest assured that my thoughts here are fleeting at the most. tourbled not during my sleep, am I :)
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Well...I havent ever killed anybody...........
yet :O
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big deal... some people just need killing.
lazs
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two equaly valid points :D
who then, in your mind lazs, needs killing?
and yeager, if you were to kill someone, how would you feel. can you imagine it or would it hit you in the face some time after the happening?
are you predicive of your emotions and inner-self as well as the material sides of life to the extent that you can imagine what killing someone feels like?
I once had a dream that i was shot from close range outside my house with a small calibre pistol. In through the right pectoral, glancing off a rib and out through the back of my armpit, just below the joint. clean wound.
didnt sting like a cut from a nife.
felt like I had been punched in the shoulder by a heavy wieght boxer. no pain, no movement from my ride arm, and the intense feeling of major damage to my body mixed with slight waves of sickening shock.
felt more like breaking an arm or wrist, with the slight added experience of two holes in your body.
every muscle from figer tip to the middle of my shoulder blade felt like the worst funny bone sensation, the bruised and torn muscle.
it was vivid to the degree that i think i know how it feel to be shot lightly. and that i never want to be shot.
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some remorse after killing is probable.... not feeling anything after dying because you wouldn't kill is certain.
you are kidding about dreams being the same thing as a real event tho right?
lazs