Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VOR on December 14, 2005, 07:31:56 AM
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according to Ahmadinejad.
Ahmadinejad said the West had harmed Muslims, invaded their countries and plundered their wealth. "If your civilization consists of aggression, making oppressed people homeless, suffocating the voices of justice and bringing poverty to a majority of the world's people, we say loudly that we hate your hollow civilization," he said.
I have to wonder what he means by "suffocating the voices of justice." My best guess: killing Iranian nationals in Iraq modeling the latest in Simtex chic before they can make a down payment on their 72 virgins.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust
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Aye, it's on the BBC's front page as well... what a nutbag. The last one I remember saying something like that was one off the right-wing blokes in France .. he's still being laughed at every day.
So, when are you invading there instead of the current useless pieces of real estate?
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Aye, it's on the BBC's front page as well... what a nutbag. The last one I remember saying something like that was one off the right-wing blokes in France .. he's still being laughed at every day.
So, when are you invading there instead of the current useless pieces of real estate?
Soon as this new Iraqi Gov't/democracy can walk on its own. Its nice to have a base to jump off from, and do a neighborhood block watch. ;) Kuwait, Iraq...I think we'll like the mountains of Iran.
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Originally posted by VOR
according to Ahmadinejad.
I have to wonder what he means by "suffocating the voices of justice." My best guess: killing Iranian nationals in Iraq modeling the latest in Simtex chic before they can make a down payment on their 72 virgins.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust
This was said last week. Iran is prodding for a war, that is my only thought on this idiot spewing these statements. If he keeps this up, he'll be in a world of hurt.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Saintaw
So, when are you invading there instead of the current useless pieces of real estate?
Bah, we're a little busy at the moment. Perhaps some of our more outspoken allies wouldn't mind handling this little twitch for us while we're out and about? Oh, and if they wouldn't mind sweeping up that little N Korea thing while they're at it that would be just swell. K? Thanks.
;)
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Aye, it's on the BBC's front page as well... what a nutbag. The last one I remember saying something like that was one off the right-wing blokes in France .. he's still being laughed at every day.
So, when are you invading there instead of the current useless pieces of real estate?
how long since you were last in the main arcade?
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VOR: I will pass on the word to our Duke, see if the Luxo army is ready to invade on demand.
Storch, sorry, my weee little yuro brain didn't get that. ---> ???
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That's outstanding, Saintaw! Perhaps he'd even be lucky enough to get those neighbors of his to go along, too.
Heaven help them if they go in there and don't find an A-bomb or two, though.
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I say **** it.
Drop a JDAM on the "Royal Palace" and let **** sort itself out.
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Originally posted by VOR
according to Ahmadinejad.
I have to wonder what he means by "suffocating the voices of justice." My best guess: killing Iranian nationals in Iraq modeling the latest in Simtex chic before they can make a down payment on their 72 virgins.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust
psst don't tell......
ummm never mind :)
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Originally posted by Saintaw
VOR: I will pass on the word to our Duke, see if the Luxo army is ready to invade on demand.
Storch, sorry, my weee little yuro brain didn't get that. ---> ???
must be all that french beer you get to enjoy.
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It is said God made the earth in seven days.
He must have farted when he it was time for the middle east:confused:
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
It is said God made the earth in seven days.
Psst... SIX days... "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done." (Gen. 1:31-2:2)
Personally, I'm a big fan of the middle east itself, certain occupants and worldviews however... :cry
- SEAGOON
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See Rule #4
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Falafal.
Henh.
I doubt we can use the 'weapons of mass destuction' reason for lighting the place up. Short of an Iran inspired Pearl Harbor we won't be touring the Irainian Mountains anytime soon.
meanwhile, we'll continue to enjoy our falafels and keep buying gas from the goat herders.
heneh.
wonder if cheney and rummy have cooked up a phoney raid on german radio stations in iran by CIA guys dressed in polish army uniforms yet?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Psst... SIX days... "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done." (Gen. 1:31-2:2)
Personally, I'm a big fan of the middle east itself, certain occupants and worldviews however... :cry
- SEAGOON
OOOPS thats right on the seventh day he kicked back and had a bud.
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you'd think that if the big guy could get the ball rolling in just six days he coulda a put in another day or two workin the bugs out.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
you'd think that if the big guy could get the ball rolling in just six days he coulda a put in another day or two workin the bugs out.
I think he left it as an exercise for the reader.
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(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.12.13.NakedAggress-X.gif)
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Perhaps the UN will issue a resolution strongly advising other countries to get involved in a resolution to form a committe to decide on what kind if any strongly worded warning to give the country of Iran and that if they persist more debate will then be needed to come up with the correct wording of a resolution that says there needs to be a resolution on how to start to think about admonishing Iran.
Or we can all wait for Lada to come here and tell us how this is just western propaganda and lies and how Iran is a peacfull country with good intentions that loves Isreal and would never do anything like that.
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i wish we'd stop dicking around and just get it over with. the middle east is like watching a bad porn flick. we all know who's gonna get screwed. lets just cut to the chase and commence with the screwing already.
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You'd be surprised at how strong the democratic movement in Iran is.
So what I said still holds true.
Drop a JDAM on the royal palace and the **** will sort itself out.
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pretty sure that he knows who his audience is and that there is no muslim that would dissagree with the thinkgs he is saying.. they might be pissed that he is putting it all out in the open tho.
lazs
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Howdy Laz,
Ahmadinejad is accomplishing a number of things with his pronouncements. First, he is simply saying openly that which is preached from countless Masjids in the Middle-East, Europe, Asia, and even here in the USA every Friday. He is also exposing the West for what it has become, a paper tiger. "Stop, or we'll say stop again" we retort. He is also doing an admirable job of trying to successfully accomplish what Saddam failed to do in the first gulf war - namely provoke Israel into a pre-emptive attack that would allow Iran to respond directly, and which would serve as a rallying cry for the middle-eastern nations to become more overt in their support for Jihad. We view an Israeli attack on Iran's nukes as something that the Iranians would like to avoid, au contraire - their attitude like Iraqs at that time is "bring it on!"
You see, we are making a fundamental error in our approach to dealing with Iran. As secular Westerners we assume that the institutional desires of Iran are fundamentally similar to our own. So we take it for granted that Iran wishes to prosper as a member of the community of nations. However, Khomeni and his successors saw establishing the Islamic republic of Iran as merely the first part in the larger dream of a reestablished caliphate, with the historic animosities between Shia and Sunni largely put aside because of the need to confront the common enemy. As such, for Ahmadinejad and his colleagues, the nation of Iran is more of a vehicle for promoting a wider ideaology. Nations are useful only for what they can accomplish in promoting the wider goals of the Jihad. Ultimately nations are themselves things that must wither and die when the Pan-Islamic vision is realized. In the same way diplomacy, politics, and so on are only useful as far as they may be employed to bring about the overall higher vision. So when we deal with Iran we need to be dealing with a state we fully expect to be absolutely disingenuous and which will stop at nothing to achieve the greater vision. Put simply, they aren't going to play by the same rules we do, and they never will unless secular Iranians can once again successfully take over the government.
To quote Ahmadinejad directly: "The people, in the last elections, proved their faith in the Revolution, and wish to see a revival of the Islamic Revolution's ideals... This revolution was in fact a continuation of the Prophets' movement and, therefore, all political, economic, and cultural goals of the country need to be directed at materializing the Islamic ideals." He added, "Followers of this divine school of Islamic thought are doing their best to pave the way for the urgent reappearance [of the Hidden Imam]."
Put simply, Ahminedjad and co. see it as their duty to finally rally and wake up the faithful and get them moving. At present a pitifully small percentage of the umma the body of the Muslim faithful, are directly involved in Jihad (10%? 30%?) They are looking to awaken them so they might once again become the unstoppable force they were in 700s.
"We must see what the real story of Palestine is... The establishment of the regime that is occupying Jerusalem was a very grave move by the hegemonic and arrogant system [i.e. the West] against the Islamic world. We are in the process of an historical war between the World of Arrogance [i.e. the West] and the Islamic world, and this war has been going on for hundreds of years.
In this historical war, the situation at the fronts has changed many times. During some periods, the Muslims were the victors and were very active, and looked forward, and the World of Arrogance was in retreat.
Unfortunately, in the past 300 years, the Islamic world has been in retreat vis-à-vis the World of Arrogance… During the period of the last 100 years, the [walls of the] world of Islam were destroyed and the World of Arrogance turned the regime occupying Jerusalem into a bridge for its dominance over the Islamic world... 'Oh dear people, look at this global arena. By whom are we confronted? We have to understand the depth of the disgrace of the enemy, until our holy hatred expands continuously and strikes like a wave." - Ahmadinejad, October 26, 2005 as reported by the Iranian Students News Agency
- SEAGOON
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"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets"
In Russian it is translated as "åâðîïåéöû ñîçäàëè ìèô î ìàññîâûõ óáèéñòâàõ åâðååâ è ïîñòàâèëè ýòîò ìèô âûøå áîãà".
Twisted translation, at least one of two.
Russian translation is that holocaust is mythologised and put above god etc. But you can read it in another way.
Nothing about denying the very fact of holocaust. It doesn't stop our "liberal" press from screaming in fury.
Can anyone tell me why Jews are better then 20 million Soviet civilians slaughtered by nazis? I am against making any nation "more equal".
Moderators, please delete this post without doubt if you find it inappropriate.
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Can you tell me why the 20 million soviet deaths at the hands of the nazis are more important than the many more deaths at the hands of your own leaders?
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Hi Boroda,
Originally posted by Boroda
Can anyone tell me why Jews are better then 20 million Soviet civilians slaughtered by nazis? I am against making any nation "more equal".
I'll take a stab at it, you'll have to forgive me if I don't quite answer completely.
I think it may have something to do with the following:
On September 17, 1939 even as the Germans were rampaging through Western Poland, the Russians, in accordance with their previous agreement with Hitler, invaded from the East. During their occupation of Poland they were responsible for the deaths of perhaps 250,000 Poles, including the infamous Katyn massacre.
(http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos1/20Katyn1943.jpg)
Had Herr Hitler not broken his non-agression treaty with Stalin in June of 1941, Russia would have been quite content to sit back and allow Germany to have a free hand in the conquered territories.
Then there is also the fact that the Jews did not have the opportunity to march 3.5 million of their former tormentors off to Gulags in Siberia where the majority of them perished in appalling conditions. The Jews also did not systematically massacre between 15 and 20 million of their own people, as the Russian government did during the Stalin years.
Finally as horrific as the German attrocities against the Russian people were, the Russians as a people had an opportunity to defend themselves against the Nazis while the Jews (with a few exceptions such as the Warsaw uprising) never did.
So while we sympathize with the longsuffering Russian people it is difficult to compare them in a one to one fashion with say the Jews or the Gypsys because of the immense suffering caused by the Soviet Government.
Generally, people tend to find sympathizing with the Jewish plight during the Second World War easier for many of the same reasons that people in the USA tend to sympathize more with the plight of the slaves than the countless southerners who lost everything or starved during the American Civil War.
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Originally posted by VOR
according to Ahmadinejad.
I have to wonder what he means by "suffocating the voices of justice." My best guess: killing Iranian nationals in Iraq modeling the latest in Simtex chic before they can make a down payment on their 72 virgins.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust
since you do not oppress people nor make them homeless and you are not aggressive, you dont care, because you didnt miss IF, did you ?
But you seems to feel offended... ohhh.. may be you comply with his "if clause" in your mind. :rolleyes:
anyway one of us dont know english.. ( because i trough its me, i didnt comment, but you convinced me to use holy weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth) )
Since Myth stand for "stories that a particular culture believes to be true and that use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity." , I dont undetand in whitch part of his speech is he denying holocaust. Just to save you some time, most accurate quotation in english that i manage to find is *** "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets "****
Would somebody give me a lesson of proper english language please.. ?
heya saw.. dude stop bugging here and fix hangar or i put ji........ you know what :D
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Lada, honest question. What do YOU think he's saying when he says "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets"
to me it's like this:[bold being my words/interprataion]
Today, they have created a myth
A myth being a made up cultural story.
in the name of Holocaust
calling it a holocaust or referencing a great injustice apon a specific people. Holocaust being specific to the jewish plight during WWII
and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets
and think it's done not as an act of god
at least that's my interpretation but then again I don't speak his language and can only equate it to english so all together I have this:
A myth being a a made up cultural story calling it a holocaust or referencing a great injustice apon a specific people. Holocaust being of the jewish plight during WWII and think it's done not as an act of god.
again this is my opinion and I'm wondering yours since you can relate and havn't stated as such.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Lada, honest question. What do YOU think he's saying when he says "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets"
to me it's like this:[bold being my words/interprataion]
Today, they have created a myth
A myth being a made up cultural story.
in the name of Holocaust
calling it a holocaust or referencing a great injustice apon a specific people. Holocaust being specific to the jewish plight during WWII
and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets
and think it's done not as an act of god
at least that's my interpretation but then again I don't speak his language and can only equate it to english so all together I have this:
A myth being a a made up cultural story calling it a holocaust or referencing a great injustice apon a specific people. Holocaust being of the jewish plight during WWII and think it's done not as an act of god.
again this is my opinion and I'm wondering yours since you can relate and havn't stated as such.
well i agree, but dont "extract" fact, whitch is quite common even in our language... that myth is based uppon true story
I will show you quite diferent point of view(local).
Iran has been a little bit critic to EU's secularity. But we take it as our best advantige, so we dont care what other think. Specialy when they are theocrats. In past 6 months several people has been put on trail for some "comments" about holocaust. This matter got quite a huge attention overhere and one of EU's ministers has been striped off his immuniti. Lets say that at least 3 "high profile" people went for trail because of they comments about holocaust in past 6 months. Since its quite ok to walk with transparent saying "God is impotent half-lesbian half-hermafrodit" and nobody give a chit, you can not basicaly say a word whitch could strugle with theme "holocaust".
It doesnt matter if his comments were for Europian or whoever,
but im quite sure, that he is right regarding EU current situation. Thus his comment is attack on EU's freedom of speech IMO.
[did you get my answer on your question?]
thx for staying on theme
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Sounds like the sort of statement that Jackal1 would come out with.
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Originally posted by lada
well i agree, but dont "extract" fact, whitch is quite common even in our language... that myth is based uppon true story
I will show you quite diferent point of view(local).
Iran has been a little bit critic to EU's secularity. But we take it as our best advantige, so we dont care what other think. Specialy when they are theocrats. In past 6 months several people has been put on trail for some "comments" about holocaust. This matter got quite a huge attention overhere and one of EU's ministers has been striped off his immuniti. Lets say that at least 3 "high profile" people went for trail because of they comments about holocaust in past 6 months. Since its quite ok to walk with transparent saying "God is impotent half-lesbian half-hermafrodit" and nobody give a chit, you can not basicaly say a word whitch could strugle with theme "holocaust".
It doesnt matter if his comments were for Europian or whoever,
but im quite sure, that he is right regarding EU current situation. Thus his comment is attack on EU's freedom of speech IMO.
[did you get my answer on your question?]
thx for staying on theme
OK I think i'm tracking here. Basically he's bashing the EU because its OK in the EU to say "screw god" but it's not ok to say "the holocaust never happened" so that's to say that the holocaust is more important than god.
I guess that makes sense if that's the context of the speech. Thanks for the answer.
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Seagoon, did you write all that text yourself?
We are talking about nazis now.
Nazis killed 20 million Soviet civilians.
You use numbers of victims of "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) that are not based on any facts and are a nazi propaganda invention. Numbers of "repressed" people are availible. If your numbers are true and "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) killed over 20 million people - then I wonder how anyone still lives here.
So, back to the subject: why should Jews be special and better then, for example, Belorussians, who lost one third of their population?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nazis killed 20 million Soviet civilians.
Lies. Propoganda..
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Lies. Propoganda..
There were millions of Jews among them, do you deny Holocaust!? Are you an antisemite?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Seagoon, did you write all that text yourself?
We are talking about nazis now.
Nazis killed 20 million Soviet civilians.
You use numbers of victims of "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) that are not based on any facts and are a nazi propaganda invention. Numbers of "repressed" people are availible. If your numbers are true and "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) killed over 20 million people - then I wonder how anyone still lives here.
So, back to the subject: why should Jews be special and better then, for example, Belorussians, who lost one third of their population?
Well... lets review few local facts.
We have 1 movie about holocouast every week on TV.
We have 1 movie about russian "causalities"[will explain later] in 5 years.
Everybody know, that jews were masacred, but much less people know, that 50% of so called Jews were not Jews. Nobody deny this fact. Yet we have still plenty of "jewish genocide" stuff. While the places where "Jews" has been mascred become almost untouchable holy places. Those places whitch were used for eradicating "non jews" i.e. gypsies, were abandoned. 2 years ago, they discovered, that concentration camp for gypsies, whitch has been located in czech were operated as prison by communist, after the war and later abandoned. Today we have farm full of pigs and cows on that place.
First arguments, why we should not care, about this particular place were. "hey genocide didnt take place overthere".. in the meaning, that genocide in europe is systematical kill of Jews. Later on we had 2 years long strugle, whitch show, that there is huge diference between "genocide agains Jews" and "camp for killing non Jews people". Keep in mind, that both camps were operated by same authority in the same time period and for the same purpose.
Jewish lound outcry and excusing in the name of "genocide agains Jews" is becomeing quite boring and many people consider sutch crying as unnessesery.
But since it is crime to say something baaad about "genocide"(annihilating of jews in Europe) many people who try to attack this attitude run into various problems.
I belive, that about 50% of local, well educated population are not fun of political Zionism(boooo can use this word, whitch is very popular in Iranian bashing ? :D )
And it seems to me, that number of people who are pissed of by "jewish genocide' in todays politic is growing.
lasersailor184.. tell me.. how strong is democratic movement in Iran? Im quite confident, that you must have good overview about Iranian people... so come on... tell us.
It will be very interesting for us to hear about "their" troughs.
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INcredible...
:huh
Mac
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Originally posted by AWMac
INcredible...
:huh
Mac
hehe i were thinking the same when i spoke to engeneer of energy, whos working in excelent international company..
wish serious face he insisted, that the best solution for ME is to Nuke it.
He insist, that most of poeple will not care and oil wont be affected by radioactiviry.
... 30 years old Ph.D. guy.... belive that it is the only one real solution to ME problems.
get yourself a passport and check the world.
You might find it even more incredible. In many diferent directions.
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Been there, done that.
Lived in Asia, Europe and Central America.
Mac
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Originally posted by Boroda
In Russian it is translated as "��������� ������� ��� � �������� ��������� ������ � ��������� ���� ��� ���� ����".
Twisted translation, at least one of two.
Russian translation is that holocaust is mythologised and put above god etc. But you can read it in another way.
Nothing about denying the very fact of holocaust. It doesn't stop our "liberal" press from screaming in fury.
Can anyone tell me why Jews are better then 20 million Soviet civilians slaughtered by nazis? I am against making any nation "more equal".
Moderators, please delete this post without doubt if you find it inappropriate.
A few of us thought it long before you threw it on the table but we were not educated on these facts you put out there in our propoganda schools, we had to read it and do the math on our own to figure it out.. But still its seems not polite to bring up that fact over here....It would be considered radical thinking in mainstreamer terms...
OP.
TJ
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Originally posted by AWMac
Been there, done that.
Lived in Asia, Europe and Central America.
Mac
hey cool.
may i ask whats your occupation then ? (umm i mean if you were working abroad )
Where have you go ?
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Seagoon, what is the source for your claim that approx 100 - 300 million muslims are directly engaged in jihad?
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Originally posted by T0J0
A few of us thought it long before you threw it on the table but we were not educated on these facts you put out there in our propoganda schools, we had to read it and do the math on our own to figure it out.. But still its seems not polite to bring up that fact over here....It would be considered radical thinking in mainstreamer terms...
OP.
TJ
Does it mean that you agree with Ahmadinejad and admit that the whole hysteria began because his words were [intentionally] distorted in translation? If not - then, I suppose, it's because in some issues "politeness" is more important for you then truth and common sence?
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Originally posted by Momus--
Seagoon, what is the source for your claim that approx 100 - 300 million muslims are directly engaged in jihad?
Probably from the same place as that 250000 Poles killed by "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm).
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"We have 1 movie about holocouast every week on TV.
We have 1 movie about russian "causalities"[will explain later] in 5 years."
-Well, that proves we don't care I guess.
"Everybody know, that jews were masacred, but much less people know, that 50% of so called Jews were not Jews."
-You aren't telling us anything we don't already know, its common knowledge that the Death Camps killed upwards of 10 million people, of which approx 6 million were of Jewish origin.
"Yet we have still plenty of "jewish genocide" stuff."
-Golly wiz, our apologies. Didn't mean to dwell on it.
"While the places where "Jews" has been mascred become almost untouchable holy places."
-Maybe they could open a McDonalds at Auschwitz?
"Jewish lound outcry and excusing in the name of "genocide agains Jews" is becomeing quite boring and many people consider sutch crying as unnessesery."
-Damn whiners. When will they learn?
"But since it is crime to say something baaad about "genocide"(annihilating of jews in Europe) many people who try to attack this attitude run into various problems."
-Oh, hey, its a free forum, please...tell us something "good" about it.
"And it seems to me, that number of people who are pissed of by "jewish genocide' in todays politic is growing."
-Yup, some are posting here.
"lasersailor184.. tell me.. how strong is democratic movement in Iran?"
-Stronger than it is with Russias ex pat Stalinists it would seem.
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Hey Boroda.. tell me. Does yer propaganda machine fun on vodka farts or on recycled soviet era textbooks?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Hey Boroda.. tell me. Does yer propaganda machine fun on vodka farts or on recycled soviet era textbooks?
Good quiestion.... while regarding american propaganda, its quite clear
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-12-14-pentagon-pr_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-12-13-propaganda-inside-usat_x.htm
edit: im looking forward to strugle with somebody, what is and what is not american propaganda... it seems that we will have many oportunities :rofl
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Originally posted by Boroda
Does it mean that you agree with Ahmadinejad and admit that the whole hysteria began because his words were [intentionally] distorted in translation? If not - then, I suppose, it's because in some issues "politeness" is more important for you then truth and common sence?
I dont agree with Ahmadinejad at all if what he states is actually what we are hearing in the media, your point is the media is distorting or purpossely misleading the translation of his comments.
And yes when sitting around a room of jewish friends its not polite to downplay the holocaust victims numbers against probable russian casualties of 20 million..
That conversation would only take place if you and I were sitting around drinking vodka at 3:00am solving the worlds problems on the back porch...
TJ
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Eisenhower forced the world media into auschwitz to document the holocost. he wrote that he did it because he was convinced that at some point in the future the atrocities would be claimed as being fabrications.
The guy was truly prescient on this one, enh?
Thats the differnce between propaganda and fact. Documentation. what we in the west refer to as the 'katyn forrests' and the murder of millions of people by stalin, hitler, tojo, amin, pol pot, etc et al is documented fact.
spout yer soviet era governemnt propaganda as fact, you'll get free western press documentation shoved under yer nose by folks in the west that understand the diffrence between soviet government propganda and documented historical facts.
the difference is there's folks like you floating around that prefer the soviet propaganda to the facts and go to immense lengths to resist the truth, no matter how many factual, open and non-government controlled sources the documention proving otherwise has.
so, go ahead lada, be a propaganda parrot for a defunct empire. live in your glory of faded and failed 5 year plans and starvation, mass murder and human rights deprivations disguised as regime propaganda.
That's western culture for yah.. unimpressed by propaganda.. yours or ours.
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Lada:
Do you agree that a large number of jews and others were systematically murdered during the Hitler regime? If so, can we agree to call that series of events "the holocaust"?
It has been well documented that such a program existed, that it was carried out, and that one of the primary targets was the Jewish population of Europe. Yes, there were other victims, including Gypsies, Homosexuals, Liberals, Communists, and anyone else considered to be an enemy of the Nazis.
Let's not fight about the numbers--it was "many". Too many.
I disagree with your characterization that the former death camps (my preferred term for those places used to carry out the holocaust) are in any way "holy" sites. Holy implies a religious connection. I don't see it. I see it as a memorial to those millions who suffered and died there. And a reminder that we must never again allow ourselves to treat other human beings as a lesser form of life.
We need that reminder, since we haven't all learned the lesson.
Boroda:
Even your previous Soviet regime admitted the crimes of Uncle Iosef against his own people. The numbers are in question (again) but let's not quibble--it was "too many".
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Christ walked on water, but Im not sure if it was a documented fact or a soviet fabrication :aok
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Maybe the Russians should dismantle all their war memorials too, every VE day, they whine about all the deaths they suffered, geez, get over it and move on, whats the big deal huh? :huh
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Hello Boroda,
Originally posted by Boroda
Seagoon, did you write all that text yourself?
We are talking about nazis now.
Nazis killed 20 million Soviet civilians.
You use numbers of victims of "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) that are not based on any facts and are a nazi propaganda invention. Numbers of "repressed" people are availible. If your numbers are true and "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) killed over 20 million people - then I wonder how anyone still lives here.
So, back to the subject: why should Jews be special and better then, for example, Belorussians, who lost one third of their population?
I sense this is going to be a fruitless exchange, but I'm willing to enter into it.
Answering your questions, did I write that text myself? Yes, I wrote it. The figures and dates were drawn from other sources as I was born in 1969 and was not there at the time.
I'll confess I'm not sure to what ends you are going to attempt to contest this as "propaganda" and I'm hoping this isn't going to lead to a 1984-ish scenario where "Oceania had never been at war with Eurasia" and so on.
Did the Soviet Union not invade Poland in September of 1939?
Was Gorbachev lying in 1989 when he finally admitted what the world already knew, namely that the Soviets had executed some 25,700 Poles in March 1940 and buried them at 3 sites?
Are you seriously going to dispute with the Poles that Russia deported at least 1.2 million of their countrymen? Are you going to argue with the KGB figures for the Gulags released under Yeltsin?
What figures and admissions would you accept as not being Nazi Propaganda? What about the deliberate mass starvation of the Kulaks which occurred before the Second World War. Did the Soviets even sign a non-agression treaty with Germany in history as you recognize it or is that propaganda too?
Let me start with some baseline questions and we'll work up from there. By answering these you'll help me to understand how to proceed.:
Did the USSR invade Poland in September of 1939?
Did the USSR deport Polish citizens to labor camps?
Did the USSR summarily execute numbers of Poles (officers, aristocrats, etc.) at Katyn and other sites in Eastern Poland? And if so how many?
How many Russians do you believe were executed, deliberately starved, or died in the gulags during the Stalin years?
How many German POWs do you believe died in the Siberian camps from 1941-1955?
Thanks in advance.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Perhaps the UN will issue a resolution strongly advising other countries to get involved in a resolution to form a committe to decide on what kind if any strongly worded warning to give the country of Iran and that if they persist more debate will then be needed to come up with the correct wording of a resolution that says there needs to be a resolution on how to start to think about admonishing Iran.
Or we can all wait for Lada to come here and tell us how this is just western propaganda and lies and how Iran is a peacfull country with good intentions that loves Isreal and would never do anything like that.
They would never take such drastic action.
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Hi Momus,
Originally posted by Momus--
Seagoon, what is the source for your claim that approx 100 - 300 million muslims are directly engaged in jihad?
At first I was confused as to how you were getting that figure, I assume it is an extrapolation of my saying that only a pitifully small number of Muslims were involved in Jihad proportionately "10%? 30%?" and then comparing that to 1.9 Billion total population. My point was more aimed at what Ahmadinejad would call an inadequate response amongst the Umma to worldwide calls for Jihad, but depending on how one defines "participating in Jihad" then I would be comfortable with a 10% total figure.
Why? Well if we are defining supporting Jihad only as actively fighting for the spread of Islam in a terrorist organization, we have a large number. If we gather up the total numbers of Chechen, Jordanian, Iraqi, Philipino, Palestinian, Iranian, Bangladeshi, Sudanese, Nigerian, Kosovar, Macedonian, Afghani, Pakistani, Kashmiri, Egyptian, Uzbek, Lebanese, Tajik, Kuwaiti, Thai (yes Buddhists are being killed by Jihadis in southern Thailand), Algerian, Saudi, and so on, Jihadis we have a large and growing number of fighters, probably in the hundreds of thousands (this includes formal members of these organizations and associated militia i.e. part-time Jihadis such as the Janjaweed in Sudan - but the number would be higher if one included the "instant bloodthirsty armed mobs" of Indonesia, Pakistan, etc.)
But if one adds in those who support the Jihad financially, publish, print, and distribute Jihad encouraging materials, work for Jihad friendly media, train future Jihadis in thousands of religious schools worldwide or who study in these schools, work in or around or support Jihad preaching and endorsing Masjids (which is rapidly becoming a majority in many nations especially via the deluge of Saudi supported materials and Imams) work for the government or armed forces of nations pursuing Jihad (like Sudan), work actively to enact and enforce Sharia law in various nations, and generally actively support all of the activities included under the heading Jihad, i.e. the religious cleansing of the Dar-El-Islam and the extension of Islam as the one faith worldwide and the elimination or subjugation of all other faiths, then yes, you are really talking about at least 10% of the Ummah. And yes clearly the Iranians would like that number to be much higher.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Boroda
whole hysteria began because his words were [intentionally] distorted in translation?
Translation ?
simple statemt, that "Muhamed Ali become myth of Boxing" was labeled as "HAHAHA IDIOT HE DENY ALI's SUPPERIORITY... HE IS INCREDIBLE INBECIL ISNT HE ? !!? ?!! "
No, no translation error, just plain public stupidity, because many people, even over here ,came and posted picture of "Ali" shoulting "HAHAHAHAAA WHAT AN RETARD, HERE IS PICTURE OF ALI HHAHAHA WHAT A TARD" ...
I hope that its clear, that im flaming those who let themself to be so easily manipulated, while im not defending Hamas in this moment. Im just saying that before somebody will mention that i claimed that Ahmdi is genius. Like somebody did in the past.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Lada:
Do you agree that a large number of jews and others were systematically murdered during the Hitler regime?
Yes
Originally posted by rshubert
If so, can we agree to call that series of events "the holocaust"?
No. ( look look .. you can omit my second sentese and say that i deny holocaust. :D
"the holocaust" was systematicall murder of "lower races" and "problematic class".Jews were only one of the affected group, thus i dont consider "the holocaust" to be a Jews related problem, but Jews were affected by this problem.
Originally posted by rshubert
It has been well documented that such a program existed, that it was carried out, and that one of the primary targets was the Jewish population of Europe. Yes, there were other victims, including Gypsies, Homosexuals, Liberals, Communists, and anyone else considered to be an enemy of the Nazis.
No its not true. Official well documented program were to promote and spread supperior race and resolve problem of other "underhumans".
Originally posted by rshubert
Let's not fight about the numbers--it was "many". Too many.
rgr
Originally posted by rshubert
I disagree with your characterization that the former death camps (my preferred term for those places used to carry out the holocaust) are in any way "holy" sites. Holy implies a religious connection. I don't see it. I see it as a memorial to those millions who suffered and died there. And a reminder that we must never again allow ourselves to treat other human beings as a lesser form of life.
i agree i used term holy in meaning "something we can not touch, because higher power have its interests here(not god)".
But i completly agree with your description, my was kinda too prosaic
Originally posted by rshubert
We need that reminder, since we haven't all learned the lesson.
Many people didnt learn lesson.
Because IMO we are not the one who shall decide and act, based on our right troughs, about life of others who we belive to missed something. (lol damm bloody english does it make sense ?)
In other words. We should not judge who did learn the lesson and who didnt. Otherwise we are starting just another demagogy.
What do you think ?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Did the USSR invade Poland in September of 1939?
No. There was no Poland when Soviet troops took back our lands lost in 1920. After Polish government ran away - Poland became only a "geographical concept". Fortunately, in Potsdam Soviet leafership insisted on creating a new Polish state, annexing some former German lands and including them into Polish territory, while Western "allies" tried to divide Polish lands and opposed the creation of Polish state.
Did Allies invade Roman Empire in 1943?
Originally posted by Seagoon
Did the USSR deport Polish citizens to labor camps?
See above. There was no Poland, so there were no Polish citizens. As for ethnic Poles - they didn't suffer more then any other nationality.
Originally posted by Seagoon
Did the USSR summarily execute numbers of Poles (officers, aristocrats, etc.) at Katyn and other sites in Eastern Poland? And if so how many?
Some Poles were executed, just like Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians or Tatars. According to Russian Federation General Prosecutor's office report - 1800 former Polish citizens died on Soviet territory.
Originally posted by Seagoon
How many Russians do you believe were executed, deliberately starved, or died in the gulags during the Stalin years?
Population of GULAG in 1937 was almost two times smaller then population of GUIN RF in 1999. Death penalty was used in some years, in some years there was a ban on death penalty, most of the people executed in 1927-53 were nazi supporters after the War. Excluding this number - death penalty wasn't used much more often then in Western countries.
Here I have to say that my Grand-grandfather was executed in 1939 for "sabotage" :(
Originally posted by Seagoon
How many German POWs do you believe died in the Siberian camps from 1941-1955?
I can't tell you about Siberian camps, they were mostly used on reconstruction works in European Russia. I think that numbers are availible, too lazy to search. The fact is that USSR signed and followed Geneva conventions. Sometimes nazi POWs got more food then Soviet civilians. In 1947 we had a bad harvest, children were dieing, and at the same time nazi POWs got proper food rations... Number of German POWs who died in Soviet POW camps is several times less then a number of Soviet POWs killed by nazis.
Any other questions? You are welcome!
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Boroda is our own museum exhibit.
Press the button to hear more.
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Originally posted by Boroda
See above. There was no Poland, so there were no Polish citizens. As for ethnic Poles - they didn't suffer more then any other nationality.
Soo... Polish didn't exist as a nationality, but as an ethnicity?
Wow I did not know that Polish was a race, is german and russian ethnicities also ?
"Yes we invaded that country, but that country didn't exist. So it's all good."
:lol
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Originally posted by Suave
Boroda is our own museum exhibit.
He's frigging hilarious; kinda like a time-jump to seventies :D
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Thanks Seagoon. I asked for a source for your claim that there are hundreds of millions of muslims directly invloved in jihad. Having read and reread your post I'm pretty sure you are guessing and you can't actually provide one.
The figure could quite as easily be a few thousand. I'm not going to hazzard a guess, but I will point out that at the height of the fight against the USSR in Afghanistan, the muslim foreign legions could only be counted in the thousands or at best tens of thousands. This was when they were operating with the full support of the Saudi, US and Pakistani governments and with a certain amount of tacit support from their domestic governments. You are now arguing that fifteen years later these numbers have increased exponentially in the face of the removal of much of the official support that the jihadis once enjoyed and in the face of the loss off all the infrastructure these groups once enjoyed in Afghanistan and Sudan, and also having lost massive amounts of funding in the crackdown that followed 9/11.
I don't buy it. It took what, 20 - 30 men to plan and carry out the 9/11 attacks? Even with the understandable increase in terrorist activity since the invasion of Iraq, the level of jihadi activity simply does not correspond to the increased availability of recruits and logistical and financial support that would exist if you were correct in your estimates.
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*quietly scratches Russia off places to visit before I die*
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you don't visit russia. russia visits you.
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So, when some 15.000 non-existent Ploes were dug up near Smolensk, it was the following:
1. Nonsense.
2. Nevermind, there are no poles.
3. Nazi propoganda.
But Putin somehow had another opinion and gave an official excuse from Russia to Poland.......
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Originally posted by Hangtime
you'd think that if the big guy could get the ball rolling in just six days he coulda a put in another day or two workin the bugs out.
I'm afraid that ones on us Hang:)
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Originally posted by Angus
So, when some 15.000 non-existent Ploes were dug up near Smolensk, it was the following:
1. Nonsense.
2. Nevermind, there are no poles.
3. Nazi propoganda.
But Putin somehow had another opinion and gave an official excuse from Russia to Poland.......
Putin refused to give official excuses for Katyn, that's why Poland was so crazy. In fact General Procecutors's report was an attempt to save face of modern Polish government, who's political agenda is based on nazi inventions.
15000 Poles near Smolensk? Nazis "found" 4500. You use numbers that don't even correspond with original nazi "source"...
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Originally posted by Suave
Soo... Polish didn't exist as a nationality, but as an ethnicity?
Wow I did not know that Polish was a race, is german and russian ethnicities also ?
"Yes we invaded that country, but that country didn't exist. So it's all good."
:lol
Well, in Russian ethnic = belonging to a nationality. I don't dig into English deep enough to check the usage of Greek words.
"Etnicheskie polyaki" = ethnic Poles, people who belong to Polish nation. What I meant is that Poland ceased to exist as a souverign country after it's government ran away. It ceased to exist both de jure and de facto. Polish nation still exists, thanks to asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks.
And again, USSR took back the lands populated with ethnic Ukrainians and Belorussians, see Curzon's line. A border between USSR and Poland was generally drawn in 1945 according to this line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_line
I love Wikipedia. Nothing about Polish agression in 1920! See history rewritten...
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Holy crap is this guy for real?????? The Polish Government ran away so there was no Poland.
So what was it??? The land that the Polish government controled before they ran away. What was it?
After the Polish government ran away what was it?
The people that lived there when the govenment was there were Polish.
What were they after the govenment left??
ANSWER......IT WAS POLAND AND THEY WERE POLISH!!!!!
The USSR invaded and killed a whole bunch of them.
Historical fact?? All the history books say it is.
But Borda I'll take your word for it because it's all just Nazi propaganda.....NOT!!!!
If I ever make it to Moscow can I come and see what bubble your living in??
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Well some recent news on Katyn.
What katyn?
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/11/katynfiles.shtml
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Originally posted by lada
Many people didnt learn lesson.
Because IMO we are not the one who shall decide and act, based on our right troughs, about life of others who we belive to missed something. (lol damm bloody english does it make sense ?)
In other words. We should not judge who did learn the lesson and who didnt. Otherwise we are starting just another demagogy.
What do you think ?
Their actions show whether or not they learned the lesson, Lada. Those who carried out ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, for example, are obviously an example.
And I think we MUST judge whether or not the lesson has been learned. Otherwise, we are caught (again) REACTING to a crime against humanity, rather than PREVENTING a crime against humanity. We have learned that when we react, innocents die. I would suggest that a little proactivity would save some of those innocents.
It's really simple. If Chamberlain had stood up to Hitler in 1938, Hitler (by his own admission) would not have invaded Poland in 1939. Maybe he would have, later, but WW2 started in 1939 because Western leaders appeased a monster. I think we should learn something from that.
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There was no Poland? The government ran away, so it's ours by default?
Wow.
Just....Wow.
:O
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Russia should remind us all to not fear our neighbors and friends with guns.... Fear the government with guns.
lazs
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Hello Boroda,
Just wondering - would it matter if I were to publish the statements by Gorbachev and his successors in which they admitted to various attrocities (including Katyn) and the deaths during the Stalin era, or made reference to statistics gleaned from the Kremlin archives since they were partially opened in the '90s?
Would it be correct to also assume that you would argue with the 1,606,748 documented deaths in the Gulag system (there are far more still hidden in the unreleased info). Did Kolyma even exist? And were Shalamov and Sozhenitsyn merely pawns of the West?
Also, the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was signed in August 23, 1939. It included a secret protocol for the division of Poland and laid the groundwork for the Soviet Invasion of September 17, 1939 as well as the occupation of the Baltics. This was obviously before the Polish President was forced to flee to Romania on September 18th and prior to the USSR's invasion of Poland (or was the orderly and equitable partitioning of Poland a spontaneous act of German-Russian goodwill?) To their credit the Poles had an exile government up and operating in Paris by the 30th of September.
Ah well, an interesting online exhibit of things that you feel never happened:
Gulags (http://www.osa.ceu.hu/gulag/)
Just a personal observation. The only thing worse than actually being murdered by a despotic regime is becoming a "non-person" utterly erased from the history books. One of the reasons why what the USSR perpetrated was in some ways worse than the attrocities of the Germans, is that at least the deaths of German victims have been documented. While many of the names were lost, there has been a concerted attempt to recover that information, while in the former USSR the vast majority of the executed remain "ghosts", paved over or erased from history. They "never existed" their images even removed from doctored photographs. Murder is evil, but being deleted, having ones very existence voided, is far worse.
- SEAGOON
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Mac is army guy..GI JOE
You know they modeled him after Mac?
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now do you guys understand why russia is always so FUBAR'd :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Just wondering - would it matter if I were to publish the statements by Gorbachev and his successors in which they admitted to various attrocities (including Katyn) and the deaths during the Stalin era, or made reference to statistics gleaned from the Kremlin archives since they were partially opened in the '90s?
Look, I try to find that mystical Katyn' "documents" provided to Poland by Gorby - still found nothing. Gorby could admit that Soviets crucified Christ.
Opened archives have nothing about Katyn.
Originally posted by Seagoon
Would it be correct to also assume that you would argue with the 1,606,748 documented deaths in the Gulag system (there are far more still hidden in the unreleased info). Did Kolyma even exist? And were Shalamov and Sozhenitsyn merely pawns of the West?
A number that you provide looks reasonable. Does it include death sentences only or is it a number of people who died in GULAG?
Solzhenitsyn already said that his "GULAG Archipelago" was a great mistake, and that he simply took all the numbers of "victims" right out of his ass.
BTW, Solzhenitsyn's "One day of Ivan Denisovich" is a great book.
Originally posted by Seagoon
Also, the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was signed in August 23, 1939. It included a secret protocol for the division of Poland and laid the groundwork for the Soviet Invasion of September 17, 1939 as well as the occupation of the Baltics. This was obviously before the Polish President was forced to flee to Romania on September 18th and prior to the USSR's invasion of Poland (or was the orderly and equitable partitioning of Poland a spontaneous act of German-Russian goodwill?) To their credit the Poles had an exile government up and operating in Paris by the 30th of September.
Russian Empire also had many "government in exile". The fact remains that USSR created and armed Wojsko Polsko, not the impotent politicians in London.
There was no occupation of so-called "Baltic states". They jouned USSR after legitimate democratic procedures. Compare it with invasion to Iraq.
They had to be occupied by USSR, otherwise they had to be occupied by nazis, and Leningrad could fall on the first week of war.
USSR failed to develop an agreement with "allies" in August 1939, that's why we had to sign a non-agression treaty.
Originally posted by Seagoon
Ah well, an interesting online exhibit of things that you feel never happened:
Gulags (http://www.osa.ceu.hu/gulag/)
I hope that you can read, not only write. didn't I say that my Grandfather spent 2 years in BAMLag and my Grand-Grandfather was executed in 1939?
Originally posted by Seagoon
Just a personal observation. The only thing worse than actually being murdered by a despotic regime is becoming a "non-person" utterly erased from the history books. One of the reasons why what the USSR perpetrated was in some ways worse than the attrocities of the Germans, is that at least the deaths of German victims have been documented. While many of the names were lost, there has been a concerted attempt to recover that information, while in the former USSR the vast majority of the executed remain "ghosts", paved over or erased from history. They "never existed" their images even removed from doctored photographs. Murder is evil, but being deleted, having ones very existence voided, is far worse.
Soviet victims are documented too. I mean - documented. I don't care about Solzhenitsyn's lies.
Believe me, my relatives are not "erased from history". They are erased for "Memorial" and other anti-Soviet puppets that you quote.
It's absolutely insane to compare Soviet regime to nazis. In fact you repeat all the Goebbels's inventions from the 30s. GULAG got mythologised just as Holocaust was, but it was mythologised by nazis and their political inheritors, who still use Goebbels's "the bigger the lie is - the more people will believe it".
In some things USSR acted mych softer then Western countries. For example - how US "interned" ethnic Japanese. USSR simply evacuated German colonists to Kazakhstan, and only after in Ukraine they began to shoot Soviet soldiers in the back.
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Hi Boroda,
Before I begin, I am sincerely sorry about your Grandfather, and your Great Grandfather. I have met several Russian and Ukranian emigres over the past few years, and your family story is not uncommon especially with families that had members of the intelligentsia during the period of Stalin's terror.
Originally posted by Boroda
Look, I try to find that mystical Katyn' "documents" provided to Poland by Gorby - still found nothing. Gorby could admit that Soviets crucified Christ.
Opened archives have nothing about Katyn.
I'll concentrate on this, rather than issues like the even easier "the Baltics welcomed us in" statement, because I would rather answer one issue completely than the hammer at a number and frankly because it seems to be a typical denial of an irrefutable, and even admitted to, Soviet atrocity. If I can't make any headway on something as obvious as Katyn, then I'm unlikely to be able to persuade you that any elements of Stalin's terror weren't products of Josef Goebbels.
First lets deal with the admission under Gorbachev. One of many sites with the information you are looking for is: Remembering Katyn (http://www.hooverdigest.org/002/crozier.html)
Here's one of the most relevant section:
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On April 13, 1990, the Soviet authorities at last admitted responsibility for the massacres at Katyn and elsewhere, although the figure cited in the relevant statement—"around 15,000"—fell short of the real total by more than 6,000. The admission came in a statement by the Tass news agency, with the personal authority of then Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. The statement referred to only three of the prison camps involved: Smolensk, Voroshilovgrad, and Kalinin. It claimed that the authorities had knowledge of the killings through "recently discovered documents." "Direct responsibility for the crime" was ascribed to Beria. The statement ended "The Soviet side, expressing profound regret over the Katyn tragedy, declares that this was one of the gravest crimes of Stalinism."
At a meeting in Moscow that day, Gorbachev presented Polish president General Wojciech Jaruzelski with copies of the NKVD's lists of names of Polish internees in the three camps mentioned. The Polish government issued a statement declaring that the question of responsibility for the massacre had "weighed particularly painfully" on Polish-Soviet relations and that the "long-awaited" Soviet admission made possible a relationship based on "partnership and true friendship." The statement went on: "Reconciliation can only be built on truth." It is surely fair to add that the Tass statement—although useful for relations between the ailing Soviet Union and its Polish satellite—was true but not the whole truth. Only three of the localities involved were named, and the total given fell short of the true figure.
----------------
I would encourage you tor read the entire article.
- SEAGOON
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Seagoon, I have read all this stuff back in Gorby's times. "List of crimes of Evil Stalin gets longer every day! Yesterday we added a beer-booth robbery!".
I still didn't see any documents other then obvious fakes. And I want to know why Poles were shot from German pistols.
I admit that USSR could commit that crime, but I see no proof, other then Gorby's statements. It's a fact that several European humanitarians (names are in Kurt Reiss's "Goebbels: a devil's advocate") who signed the original nazi report in 1943 were forced to do it, and they couldn't be threatened by Soviets because they lived in Western occupation zones.
The whole story is dirty, and the fact is that some forces use it to raise hatered between Poles and Russians. And they never remember about Polish invasion in 1920 or a fate of 100,000 Russian POWs in Poland in 1918-1920. If you scream about Katyn' at every corner - then why you forget thousands of Russian soldiers starved to death by Polish regime after WWI? Same double standard: noone cares about Russian/Soviet people, and everyone screams about Jews and Poles. Everyone remembers the case of "Jewish anti-fascist commeete" but noone remembers Babiy Yar.
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Boroda, I'm going to have to do what I don't like doing and just give up. If I can't get you to concede to the crimes that even Gorbachev and the Politburo partially conceded, and if you won't accept what the Poles themselves know they went through, then there really isn't anywhere left for me to go in the discussion. Your position truly is invincible in that regard.
Well, I will say this, no one will be able to question your faith in Soviet Communism. Nothing will shake it. You remind me of Kirov and the young Bukarin in that respect. Then again, they both got shot by Stalin as well.
Thanks for answering at least.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Rude
I'm afraid that ones on us Hang:)
Never ask Man to do God's job. ;)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Boroda, I'm going to have to do what I don't like doing and just give up. If I can't get you to concede to the crimes that even Gorbachev and the Politburo partially conceded, and if you won't accept what the Poles themselves know they went through, then there really isn't anywhere left for me to go in the discussion. Your position truly is invincible in that regard.
Well, I will say this, no one will be able to question your faith in Soviet Communism. Nothing will shake it. You remind me of Kirov and the young Bukarin in that respect. Then again, they both got shot by Stalin as well.
Thanks for answering at least.
- SEAGOON
I just won a bet.
Seagoon, it's exchanges like yours that lead me to believe that Patton had the russian communist mindset pegged perfectly.. and his solution may yet remain the very best one.