Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mechanic on December 15, 2005, 02:43:48 PM
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([EDIT] great, it wont let me edit 'spitefires' out of the title, but hey, i kinda like it :p )
For some of the newer pilot here, who might want to fly something other than spitfires.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/C-hog_vs_spitfires.ahf
This film shows excesive use of negative engergy advantages as well as some of the more widely used possitive E advantages.
In each fight keep your eyes on the two speed counters in the film viewer. Sometimes it is hard to believe what you see when you get shot down, if one doesn't realise the enemy is flying 95mph when attacking at 170mph then your gunnery better be good or you're in for a nasty lesson in overshooting four wing-mounted Hispanio cannons.
These babies are your ticket to ride in the C-hog, just dont be tempted to waste ammo and plane parts HOing just because you have big boy guns. wait untill the moment is right, then you only need a half second burst on target.
Anything infront of you within 400 yards is your kill with one good burst.
Anything up to 700-800 yrds is still very reachable with hispanios, but damaging anything serious from that range will require a large ammount of concentrated fire.
Stay sharp in you Hog and know when to use possitive and negative energies to your advantage, you only need one good chance and they fall to pieces.
The Spitfire will be confident. but make mistakes and you play right into the territory the F4Us all shine in.
Flaps and Stall Fighting
you will see in almost every fight the use of negative enegry advantages. by not pointing our nose at the enemy first pass and slowing down to prepare our move we offer them a shot. by giving your slimest profile as that shot becomes open for a second you minimise the chances of being hit. the instant reaction of the enemy will be that he is right on you and will turn into you as you now sit 350yrds above him inverted look down. you speed will be stall speed or even less if you are gunning the engine and the enemy will be starting to climb back up after a dive, most likely doing 170-200. as he shoot back up to reverse the altitude gap there is nothing stoping you floating through your turn and blasting right into the canopy.
another example demonstared alot as the film goes on is the use of the flat overshoot. by flat i mean not using the vertical much more than a 100ft or so.
with a combination of a scissoring routine with very little throttle and alot of flap, followed by good judgement of when the enmy will shoot, followed by a good second of evasive when they do shoot is the only thing you must achieve to force a pilot out in front of you even when you think you're toast. this of course relies on the enemy not noticing or anticipating the overshoot early enough/at all.
a spitfire will fall to pieces very quickly and hispanio are the most acurate and deadly weapon in this game.
with almost 1000 rounds of 20mm cannon you can afford to learn to refine your gunnery.
anyhow, i have said enough gibberish and i am not proclaiming to be anything here. As stated in the title this is for beginers, a few examples of how to beat those pesky spitfires at their own game and do it in something that makes them upset because of its arena reputation
there are 6 one on one fights in a quiet corner of the MA on this film, but what is 27mins of your life anyway? It starts off a bit slow, i deacked for 20 seconds before letting the spitfire (first enemy i seen in 30 mins) up.
A big to the enemy in this film. instead of getting angry he persisted and advanced his flyingin increasing leaps between each fight.
Link---->> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/C-hog_vs_spitfires.ahf
hope this might help anyone doubting the possibilty of beating spitfires in less reputed turn and burn rides, and i hope anyone watching enjoys the banter on ch200, its always good :)
S!
batfink
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k, first of all. Nice flying. 2nd, Ltar kills dont count. :p
One thing to keep in mind is that he is in a Spit16. Most of the spit16's are cannon fodder... Trying to turn full throtle, no flaps, not using the spit16's advantages at all. Because of that they're no better in a spit16 than they would be in a 51.
Not to take away from your flying here. The chog is a nice ride and can be used with great success against spits in medium to lower speeds. Turns great, has very effective flaps, and stop on a dime and stall's fairly nice.
One thing I would not recomend to players just getting into a Chog is for them to turn with and get very slow with anything other than spit16's/14's or 9's at first. If you miss the brief oportunity for a shot early on in the engagement you're going to get into trouble.
That being said, come turn with my spit16. :)
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there is nothing even remotely beginer about you :D but thanks for the reply. you're right, it should be title spit16's, i might have demonstrated the spit5s dying in the last fight but ran out of fuel.
my flying was a little sloppy, but we were having fun mostly. Kilz's flying was good, just way too predictable and not slow enough in the turns. he started off slow but progressed very quickly.
hopefully this might help to open the eyes of the general comunity to other types of ACM than having the most energy.
man, im mean i know i shouldnt make my enemy better but its boring pulling the same simple moves again and again and . :p
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:aok
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That's a very enjoyable film to watch! One of the few I sit all the way through. You fly the F4U-1C well mechanic!
Here is a short film of me being killed by Yucca in a -1D with me in a -1. It's a good example of speed variation and vertical manuevers on Yuccas part. I just sit there and watch.
Yucca Kill (http://members.cox.net/stantond/Yucca_Kill.ahf)
Thanks for the film!
Malta
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BAtfink is a bully.
:D
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:D, i didnt vulch or shoot afk though :p
thanks for the addition stantond, its good to see some examples of the other models of hog. S!
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is good to see when people give a descriptive briefing of their films :aok
good film , batfink! Would you mind explaining/defining your theory more regarding:
Positive Energy verses Negative Energy
I understand it, but maybe some others might get the wrong idea or meaning
one other thing I saw, which I personally stray away from is using that dreaded Combat Trim ( CT ) in the F4U planes or most any US plane for that matter.......
also, post a few 3 pictures of your slider settings if you would please
all in all , some good visual aids in this film regarding forcing the over shoot and out of plane maneuvering , ie.....where KilZ said how did your F4U outturn my spit example :aok
saw ya only dip to 120 or 130...........the F4U will get alot slower than that , say 70 to 25 to 5 or 0 :D when in the process of dragging/roping in the vertical, and if you see an F4U barreling in down at you and his Gear comes out, watch out that is Jish!!!!:lol
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i never get the chance to 'watch out' when jish is trying to kill me :)
Negative and possitive Energy
The most basic conversion of this theory is that a possitive energy advantage(PEA) means you have enough speed and/or altitude to control the fight. a negative energy advantage(NEA) means you are slower than your enemy to the extent of you controlling the fight from the negative side of things.
A rope manouver is a pefect example of a PEA tactic.
An overshoot manouver is the perfect example of a NEA tactic.
PEA manouvers are very commonplace in Aces High so this film concentrates on the NEA manouvers
heres some i prepared earlier...well, just now infact.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/NEA_merge.JPG)
In this first pic we see how having less speed is an advantage even in as simple a move as the merge. Its obvious when you think about it. Just be mindfull not to lose so much that you become roped and unable to shoot at your faster enemy.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/NEA_horiz..JPG)
In this second one (sorry poor quality but im going out now, no time) we can see how using negative energy to our advantage we stay inside the enemy and can gain any number of snapshots before settling on their tail to finish it, or chase them home.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/BnZ_defence.JPG)
In this third pic, and one of the most usefull times for a negative enrgy attack, is when defending from Boom and zoomers.
In this example we are not dumping our speed to gain a negative energey advantage as we are in this state due to the altitude difference. By climbing up into the atcck, we minimise the chance of the enemy hitting us unlike is we had flat turned, or tried to dive away.
As soon as we pass our opponent, we become the aggresor. They cannot do anything but run, or climb.
If they climb, and you can shoot, you can learn to coincide the second phase of the enemies move (dive - climb - repeat) with the second phase of your move (climb - dive - repeat) and provide yourself with a chance at taking him down before he regains his possitive energy advantage and counteracts your negative energy advantage
essetially, making use of negative energey advantages is like having 50% more options when in a dogfight.
don't limit yourself to thinking that the only way to survive and get kills is to be the fastest, highest, or tightest turning mother in the arena.
i will post my stick scales when i get home tomoro, but i can tell you i have all the sensitivity sliders at default, a little deadband on all three axis, and absolutely no damper on anything. I fly with a cheapo saitek cyborg twisty stick and find these settings make it more than adequate.
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BluKitty and Me (http://www.explicit-designz.net/freehost/files/27/BluKty_n_me.ahf)
Here is a film that fits in this thread I think. (Title not withstanding) "Beginers guide to F4U-C VS Spitfires' BluKitty in the HOG-C and me in the P51D.
I knew he was going to do exactly as he did because he shot down a squaddie and me not more than 10 minutes before this fight with the stalling tactic. So I went into the fight planning on trying to match his moves. I wanted to see if the pony could match the fight.
Notes:
Merge- the horizontal offset was the sign that we were going to be engaged into a stalling rolling scissors overshot type fight as before. He broke basically flat off to my left, so I pulled into a left high yo-yo to create a little more separation to avoid the overshot and intercept him for a guns pass. (kind of a lag-yo if you will) I was also prepared to cut throttle and hit flaps if need be.
First pass: I managed to stay inside of his turn during the first reversal. But the fact that I was now in the second half of my yo-yo (Nose down) had me a bit concerned as to how long I was going to be able to hold my position, I tried a little left rudder to slip off some speed (Create small amount of drag to reduce speed) it helped some. It did manage to keep him out in front of me for this pass as I managed to get a few rounds off as he did kind of a split-S rolling type thingy :D. (No Hits)
After a few more evasive he faked the peediddle out of me! LOL
He pulled nose high and to the right slightly and anticipated when I was going to try and squeeze off a few more rounds. Then all the sudden he levels wings and noses down! WOW! I was soooo sold on this LOL
Note: our speeds were very close at times. I had full flaps near the end…But im thinking that when my nose was below the horizon in early on passes I was gaining more speed than the HOG. Yeah…I could have pulled off 70 degrees or so and exited the fight after the second guns to survive. pass (Usually I would, but was interested to find out if the Pony-D could stall with the Hog.) Had I made slightly more adjustments early on I think I could have kept him in the guns long enough to do more damage. But this is the kind of fights you live for! Those were some AWESOME evasive!! The anticipation on the part of my opponent was absolute art!
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good stuff bat. The pictures are no doubt very helpful for someone just starting out.
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Example of too much E loss. (Not to mention poor gunnery!) LOL
Too much Negitive (http://www.explicit-designz.net/freehost/files/27/too_much.ahf)
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I am curious. Why are you dropping gear so often? No big deal really, just never saw someone drop the dive breaks that much in a hog before.
Coming over the top you did it too. Again, just curious.
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In a nutshell? Cause i dont know what the heck im doing. This was one of those cases where i over do it trying to avoid overshot. Basically morph. i dont put near nuff time in pure fighter role to know how to judge to opponentsE state/speed. I have a basic knowledge of what to do. I just dont try hard enough to fine tune it. You never know what im going to be flying in game.. Might be a light fighter...hvy fighter..GV...bomber...so on. Even in fighters..i rarely fly the same fighter more than 2 or 3 flights before i chose a different model. Its just funner for me to switch things up. I get bored doing the same thing more than twice or three times in a row. LOL
once i droped gear as to prevent overshot on the Spit and take him out after the rope.
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Rgr, just wondering.
The gear which are and were actual dive breaks, for those that don't know... Dont give you any added lift or a better turn rate. They actually will hurt your turn rate. Anyways, a notch of flaps over the top would help to get you over faster. I often use a notch or two when I have someone pulled up but they're going to stall sooner than I want them to. So before they'll stall out, I will come over the top faster to get to him just as he's stalled.
If its a close rope, and we're both going to stall at the same time, with him under say 800d, I wont use any flaps, rather i'll make sure im full power, perfectly verticle with each wing tip leveled with the horizon on either side and do a hamer head back down on him. That'll give you the maximum zoom climb. (it works best for me anyways) Its important to maintain a peftect vertical climb durring your climb, before your hammer head and through-out the hammer head. If you dont then it aint gonna be pretty for one, and you run the risk of stalling out inverted or in a flat spin. Which is going to take more time to get down to your opponent. If you do it right, your nose will come around quickly enough and in the right direction (down towards the enemy) and you will be in good position.
Try to stay away from the gear drops though until you really need to hit the breaks.
PS- I knwo you probably know much of what I just said mugz, that is just for those that don't.
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Thats right.. Gear=Brakes...Flaps =Turning aid
Always knew you were smarter than I morph. S!
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I never said that. I just made sure I mentioned that the gear doesnt help you to turn because there might be others that dont.
That's all.
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Correct. you didnt say it here. So since this is a seperate thread...Im not the uneducated brick layer here...but i am over there? ;)
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Just to make a comment, all three films with F4u's show the dive brakes dropping at some time (except mine of course). Batfink's, Yucca's, and Bluekitty's planes all drop dive brakes, if only momentarily to control speed. Batfink was (in my understanding) describing and demonstrating the use of speed and how controlling your energy can create a negative energy advantage guns solution. The ability to lose energy (in a controlled manner) is sometimes more important than having excess. Being able to judge energy states is a valuable skill in AH.
Regards,
Malta
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excelent post stantond. you know i always considered the lowest flap setting to be just that. is it intended as a dive brake?
thanks also mugz, some good films and some good follow up info morph.
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Whoops my bad,
I reviewed your film and noticed the dive brakes (i.e. landing gear) were not extended during the fights. But yes, to answer your question, dropping flaps will slow the aircraft much like dropping gear but dropping gear works up to 400 ias speeds. I noticed Yucca and BlueKitty both extended gear (although Yucca only briefly) and I though you did also based on Morpheus's comment.
I am even more impressed with the speed control without using dive brakes! That's a good film.
Regards,
Malta
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Malta1, reviewed your film, that was a quickie, had to slow it down 3 times :)
call it luck of the draw on that one.......
Mugz, not withstanding you was flying against BluKitty, you was neck n neck with him , he ( or are u sure it isn't she?) was just better controlling the slow fight....this just takes practice, then the rest is pilot ability......
Your 2nd posted film, if you have read/memorized what planes accelerate fast verses the plane you are in, will tell you when and when not to scrub off speed. all be it with flaps or gear. In this Too Much-film you are in a C-Hog and flying against two very fast accelerating planes the Tiffy and the Spit16. Both initially out accelerate the F4U, so you need no more than a few notches of flaps and some rudder, as your gear is out you see the Tiffy accelerating away from you, if worse case chop or work throttle to remain behind the 3/9 line.......
as for you saying you don't know when and when not to do this, it all depends on what your flying verses your opponents plane's strengths/weaknesses
The hog is a HOG and if it isn't dipping its nose or diving it is slow as hell to accelerate/gain speed.....
there is a good amount of others who drop that gear, as we see here, SirLoin is another that comes to mind, I myself save it for landing most times, all them notches of flaps, even the last notch are plenty enough to scrub of speed when needed..............
very good thread, everyone ~S~
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ah thats more clear stantond, but you had me confused, and thanks :)
I try to preapre for the move in advance with some slid-slip and power decrease, i find dropping the gear can get you in trouble as the enemy notices what you're doing. with out gear, and slightly more preparation, you have more chance of fooling your opponent at a time when spit seconds count for your life.
im not sure if the manifold gauge records correctly but if it does it could be usefull to notice when and where throttle is being cut, if anyone still finds the practical sides of the negative energy fighting tough to grasp.
both yucca and jish would beat me 5 out of 5 times even if they had their gear out the whole time and only used their .45 pistol though, so 'm not damning the idea of gear brakes, i just try not to give my game away untill its inevitable that im going to win, as a preference. much like the argument of not using tracers to allow you to miss without warning the enemy. I do use tracers though, strangely.
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I just found a little video i made a few months back.
only 60 seconds long but well worth a look. Its two kills joined into one .ahf clip.
The first shows perfectly how losing all your speed instead of trying to conserve it will make you surprise and outturn a light more nimble aircraft.
The second 30 seconds shows another clip from the recent malta scenario.
It is a text book example of this move --->>>>>
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/BnZ_defence.JPG)
FILM LInk ->>>>> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/2_good_moves.ahf
hopes this is helpfull, it should download in seconds.
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bump, and i'd also like to take this chance to mention that all the credit for my knoledge of this BnZ defence goes to fighting wildthng and watching dead man flying's films. I wish i could say its all my ideas, but clearly it not.
this theory of negative energy come mainly for observasion of other better than me and dying, alot.
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I'm a movie starr. Shortly my dream of starring in a porno with paris hilton will be fully realized... MUAHAHAHA
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there goes any interest i might have had in paris hilton vids, thanks yucsta! :(
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Correct. you didnt say it here. So since this is a seperate thread...Im not the uneducated brick layer here...but i am over there? ;)
i didnt say that either.
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Originally posted by mechanic
I just found a little video i made a few months back.
only 60 seconds long but well worth a look. Its two kills joined into one .ahf clip.
The first shows perfectly how losing all your speed instead of trying to conserve it will make you surprise and outturn a light more nimble aircraft.
The second 30 seconds shows another clip from the recent malta scenario.
It is a text book example of this move --->>>>>
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/BnZ_defence.JPG)
FILM LInk ->>>>> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/2_good_moves.ahf
hopes this is helpfull, it should download in seconds.
lol @ me in the background. 'damn, that was a nice one!' rofl.
you should have put a few more secs of the lead-in with that clip tho bat, because its hard to see how you set the shot up. still got the original .ahf??
that was the Bn'Z reversal right? was very nice i gotta say, looked really sweet from my cockpit:aok
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Mugz, not withstanding you was flying against BluKitty, you was neck n neck with him , he ( or are u sure it isn't she?) was just better controlling the slow fight....this just takes practice, then the rest is pilot ability......
Typically...would the Ponys nose fall below the horizon due to stall at a higher speed than the HOG? Yes i do realize that BluKty simply is better than i am.
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Your 2nd posted film, if you have read/memorized what planes accelerate fast verses the plane you are in, will tell you when and when not to scrub off speed. all be it with flaps or gear. In this Too Much-film you are in a C-Hog and flying against two very fast accelerating planes the Tiffy and the Spit16. Both initially out accelerate the F4U, so you need no more than a few notches of flaps and some rudder, as your gear is out you see the Tiffy accelerating away from you, if worse case chop or work throttle to remain behind the 3/9 line.......
Thanks for the input TC. It is much appreciated.
As far as letting the Tiffy slip away? I was pretty sure this was going to happen. My poor gunnery doesnt make it any easier for me either :rofl I have an old AH1 film of me causing HISPD to overshoot the same way as Batfink was doing. I let him slip away as well. This was some time ago now. But the acceleration of the Typhoon was as clear then as it was in this film. But i have grown fond of giving up a kill as apposed to overshooting and giving one away while learning a new plane or maneuver. This does happen to me from time to time it that situation, but i have learned to live with it. I don’t fly the Hog much at all, but i will get better with it in time. That is if I don’t get tired of it first. LOL
This second film was posted to demonstrate what happens if you scrub too much speed with excessive flap and air braking. Good demo eh? :D
Thanks again for your help/
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Bat...the shot on the 109 was pure gold. Those are the shots that seperate the good from the ugly. If i could only make those shots? Ahhh it would be a dream.
Levi makes them awesome snap shots as well. Thanks for the lessons and the films
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thanks mugzee, but if the film went on a few minutes longer you would hear me laughing about the fact that i would make that shot once in 100 :)
the ACMs are no problem but keeping a steady rudder-wrist is not easy when your screaming 'die infidel!'
the best make this routine.
I am certainly one of the uglies by a long shot :)
edit: you're right poo, shoulda had more clip there, but to be honest i just let him fly right at me untill he opened fire then all the luck i needed was granted in the next few seconds.
I would love for some of the ninja assasins amoung us to post some of their F4U films. show us what its really all about.
Balsy VS Jish, now there is a hog fight i want to see.