Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SkyRock on December 15, 2005, 03:48:27 PM
-
I work in an urban school district(Memphis city schools) in a rough part of the city. MCS has adopted the Blue Ribbon Plan for discipline this year which does not allow teachers or administrators to administer corporal punishment. Also, suspensions are to be avoided at all cost as well,(No Child Left Behind) since the schools lose money whenever a student is not in class.
Today, a good friend of mine who is also our on-site police officer, was pushed down a flight of stairs and suffered a massive concussion and some face damage.(this happened about 1 hour ago and I havent heard latest on his condition) The kid is in my class and is one of 13 CRIPS I have in my 7th period class.(I brought up the fact he is in the CRIPS because much of our violent crimes on campus come from either the CRIPS or BLOODS or both when they fight each other) He has threatened me before but I just tell him to take his best shot and he has always backed down. After pushing Officer White down the stairs, this kid(he's 19) ran like hell. As he passed I had a terrible urge to flatten him with a hard right to his lower jaw. I found myself even drawing back on him as he passed. I understand that legally I would have been up the creek as the student was in the process of fleeing and was not an immediate threat to me or any of my students. I almost lost control!
What would you have done?
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
I work in an urban school district(Memphis city schools) in a rough part of the city. MCS has adopted the Blue Ribbon Plan for discipline this year which does not allow teachers or administrators to administer corporal punishment. Also, suspensions are to be avoided at all cost as well,(No Child Left Behind) since the schools lose money whenever a student is not in class.
Today, a good friend of mine who is also our on-site police officer, was pushed down a flight of stairs and suffered a massive concussion and some face damage.(this happened about 1 hour ago and I havent heard latest on his condition) The kid is in my class and is one of 13 CRIPS I have in my 7th period class.(I brought up the fact he is in the CRIPS because much of our violent crimes on campus come from either the CRIPS or BLOODS or both when they fight each other) He has threatened me before but I just tell him to take his best shot and he has always backed down. After pushing Officer White down the stairs, this kid(he's 19) ran like hell. As he passed I had a terrible urge to flatten him with a hard right to his lower jaw. I found myself even drawing back on him as he passed. I understand that legally I would have been up the creek as the student was in the process of fleeing and was not an immediate threat to me or any of my students. I almost lost control!
What would you have done?
If I were you I'd either:
1. Start looking for a new school district
2. Start looking for a new line of work
-
Originally posted by Skilless
If I were you I'd either:
1. Start looking for a new school district
2. Start looking for a new line of work
I 2nd that. If the school district administration does not wish to confront the problem then they are only putting you at risk. Not worth it at all. there are far better places to work.
-
I would swung with all my force just to the right or left of his chin.
Especially since this kid is running at you, this would do one of two things. Possibly both.
1.) Knock the kid out from pain.
2.) Compound fracture of the jaw.
And then I would have paused for a minute to devote an entire section of my memory to the sound my fist made as it broke said jaw.
-
Trip his ass, then restrain him. If he punches at you, game on.
Sucks that your administration is a bunch of weenies.
ed: depending on your state laws (I'll go off of MI law), he's just committed a felony by assaulting an officer, and a prosecutor would argue felonious assault on top of that because of the stairs/concussion. Citizens arrests for felons are A-ok when it's committed in the citizen's presence, meaning you can use reasonable (trip, holding) force to restrain him. If he punches you, now it's self defense.
Again, then you'd have to deal with administration, and if they're a bunch of pansies you could still get in trouble. But legally you'd be fine in MI.
-
IMO, You probably did the right thing as far as your career and livelihood goes.
However, I can't help but feel that if this punk is 19, then he is, by every standard we have, a legal adult...student or not. And a legal adult who assaults someone is subject to adult consequences...and you should have dropped him cold. Then slap him awake, and deck him again.
Clearly, it takes a real man to push a guy down a flight of stairs, probably from behind, then run like a girl (please pardon me, ladies...just an expression) to avoid facing up. Little budding monsters like this need to see the other side of adult freedom...it's called consequences.
On another note...Crips and Bloods in Memphis ? :O Wow. I'm not sure I ever imagined such a thing. Maybe this shining light should take a good look at where 'Tookie' Williams is now...
Remember, man...if no one saw you punch his punk lights out, then he 'fell'.
I sincerely hope you stay safe, and that your friend recovers well and quickly. Hell of a Christmas present for people who work to give kids a future.
In a perfect world, you and your bud will wait till the noise blows over, find the criminal's route home, and corner him alone. You know...use his own MO. Explain carefully a few facts of life, and then beat the living shiatsu of of him.
Actually, this is more noise than good sense. I just get outraged by stuff like this, and ungrateful little crapheads who fancy themselves 'urban warriors'. Pffft. My ass.
, and be well.
-
what are you talking about. you have a very warped view of the events. as I see it he pushed the officer then charged at you.
drop him and let the lawyers sort it out.
-
I'm in concurrence with the Captain as well as Hildvl, you should have knocked his bellybutton out COLD. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior anywhere. Not sure about your school regs but where i go to school, any gang "paraphenilia" including 90% red or blue clothing, flashing gang signs, or any clothing associated with gangs gets you a suspension I believe.
He was charging you, your fist should have met his jaw.;)
-
Help me to understand... A nineteen year old student assaulted a police officer and he's still walking around campus?
-
You mean you saw an adult fleeing the scene of a crime and you were worried about corporal punishment?
Did you witness the crime? If you did, you might be liable for violating the samaritan law..... you better move.
-
Isn't assaulting an Oficer like that a felony?
-
I would never work in a school today, teachers are automatically wrong and the parents, the community, and the kids friends defend the student even when obviously wrong.
I'd sooner go to Iraq wearing an 'Allah sucks' t-shirt.
-
as he was running by you should have "stretched" your arms out. then he would "accidentally" hit your arms. oops, now you are a hero.
-
Just a little more detail on the matter. Officer White is hospitalized with a concussion. The young man, Terrel, is on the lamb. This happened in a high school gym during a christmas presentation when visiting elementary kids were singing for us. I was about six feet away from runner and there were other kids between us, hence no real chance of clocking him even though I had the urge. I face this type of mentality everyday so in the heat of the moment, I was acting off an inate instinct to retaliate, which I am professionally trained to resist.
I am going to jump forward to how I feel about the incident now that it has been six hours ago. I feel exactly the way I do everyday, which is to do my job the best I can, help as many as possible come to terms with the reality of growing up and educating yourself, enlighten the bright and feed the dim, provide a realistic model or role as a professioinal, and preach through way of action how a decent human being should act in public.
I was being generalistic as experience has taught me that fluidity in dealing with young adults lends itself to a higher rate of mastery on overall or longterm objectives. In other words, coldcocking someone blindly as they run by, would be exemplifying the exact behavior that I work very hard everyday to destabilize in our school/community.
Violence is entertainment in this environment so you walk a very thin line in what you can "be OK" with and when things are about to be dangerous. I experience about three to four "dangerous" interactions a day, so I am a little desensitized. When I saw my friend lying there with a knot the size of a grapefruit on his head and having trouble breathing, I became enraged, as did everyone(adult) else who witnessed the event. As it stands right now, I am entertaining coach Slokum's idea. Lets say, Terrel accidentally finds himself in a room with myself and the other five coahes. When we ask him why is he not in class, he accidentally slips on his own urine and breaks 6 ribs and both kneecaps. That should put him missing over 30 days at which time he would have to wait until the next year to re-register.:furious
-
Sky, you shouldn't post "evidence" on public message board, otherwise, plan is good... :aok
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Sky, you shouldn't post "evidence" on public message board, otherwise, plan is good... :aok
Note the word entertain, I was just stating how my movie of the event will unfold, as soon as I become a movie writer and raise enough money to produce the film.:D
-
Call in the Mississippi KKK. :rofl
-
I think he needs to accidently fall out a 3rd story window
oops
gotta remember. these type people do not respect weakness of any kind.
Lack of action only shows them weakness in their minds and only serves will encourage them to do more.
Now should one or two accidentally fall out a window
That woudl send a message they would respect and understand
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
The kid is in my class and is one of 13 CRIPS I have in my 7th period class.
My Sig has a 15 shot clip and one in the chamber. An extra clip and you can afford some misses and collateral casualties.
-
What a horrible dilemma, SkyRock. I have no snappy answers or suggestions.
-
Originally posted by Rolex
What a horrible dilemma, SkyRock. I have no snappy answers or suggestions.
Today was tough because of the type of injury, but stitches are quite common. Tuesday, a local gang rode 4 wheelers through campus during school. It was quite amusing as they tore the grass and dug holes throughout the yard. Officer white immediately called backup and got in his cruiser. By the time he got to the end of the parking lot, they sped through yards and were gone! I left school later that day and saw cruisers patrolling the hood still looking for them. It's not all gloom and doom though, we have future doctors and scientist, singers and nurses, athletic stars and hair-stylists, preachers and policemen, and many other great civillians that do follow the rules and look down upon this type of mentality and behavior. The community in general is opposed to behavior that is senseless and harmful to the innocent.
-
Thin the Herd....
Help the Gene Pool out...
Help them get Religion, the Hard Way!
Consider it just huntin rabbits.
:D
Mac
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
What would you have done?
Get a lawyer and make it a good one!
-
Skyrock:
I've worked in an urban setting for 20 years picking up the peices this kind of crap leaves. These animals understand only one thing...pure, naked FEAR. Its too late to teach them anything else, the only possibility is to isolate them from the rest of the public so the contagin does not spread.
Sadly, that won't happen.
And that community you espoused is the same community that shelters these animals and makes life a living hell for anyone who tries to clean up the mess. They lie, hide, cheat, threaten, and scream bloody murder if anyone tries to "come into their community". The best way to be branded a racist is to be white and try to tell them.."Hey, this is just no good, you're killing yourself". The best way to be brabded a "Uncle Tom" is to be black and do the same thing. Either branding gets the same result...you are a target, one that no one will defend. You are on your own, and if you act to defend yourself, you;ll lose your job, and possibly your bank account, your house, your car, and your family.
Get out now...let it rot, let it burn.
-
running in the halls is not allowed, you had a duty to "restrain" him.
-
You did the right thing. If you would have hit him you would be in jail and he would be found not guilty, "because of his parents" or some such crap.
This is a loose loose situation.
I hope you friend recovers.
-
do what you will to him, i say. god will judge him in the end.
-
This morning officer white was listed in stable condition but is having problems with his eyesight. He is awake and talking, just not seeing very well. The student showed up to a police station down the street later that afternoon with a cast on his arm. He claimed that he was defending himself from officer white's attack. The police did not believe him and arrested him on the spot!
-
And I thought my students were bad. How do these punks behave in class? I think our school system is the most lenient in the world, but that kind of behaviour would be an instant dismissal, and the gang stuff too.
I'm sure you did absolutely the right thing. I hope your friend makes a full recovery.
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
MCS has adopted the Blue Ribbon Plan for discipline this year which does not allow teachers or administrators to administer corporal punishment.
Does this mean that it's legal somewhere for the teachers to beat up students!? Other than self defence I mean.
-
I have a question. The "student" is 19 right? Doesnt that constiute him an adult? Shouldnt he be in jail for malicus assult?
oops, missed the arrested part.
still, my question holds, why wasnt he immediatly taken into custody?
-
Originally posted by Delirium
I would never work in a school today, teachers are automatically wrong and the parents, the community, and the kids friends defend the student even when obviously wrong.
I'd sooner go to Iraq wearing an 'Allah sucks' t-shirt.
:rofl
-
Originally posted by Shaky
Skyrock:
I've worked in an urban setting for 20 years picking up the peices this kind of crap leaves. These animals understand only one thing...pure, naked FEAR. Its too late to teach them anything else, the only possibility is to isolate them from the rest of the public so the contagin does not spread.
Sadly, that won't happen.
And that community you espoused is the same community that shelters these animals and makes life a living hell for anyone who tries to clean up the mess. They lie, hide, cheat, threaten, and scream bloody murder if anyone tries to "come into their community". The best way to be branded a racist is to be white and try to tell them.."Hey, this is just no good, you're killing yourself". The best way to be brabded a "Uncle Tom" is to be black and do the same thing. Either branding gets the same result...you are a target, one that no one will defend. You are on your own, and if you act to defend yourself, you;ll lose your job, and possibly your bank account, your house, your car, and your family.
Get out now...let it rot, let it burn.
lucky thing you aren't one of those racists.
-
Originally posted by mora
Does this mean that it's legal somewhere for the teachers to beat up students!? Other than self defence I mean.
Not beat up, many systems are still administering corporal punishment(paddling, straps, etc.)
-
Originally posted by octospider0
I have a question. The "student" is 19 right? Doesnt that constiute him an adult? Shouldnt he be in jail for malicus assult?
oops, missed the arrested part.
still, my question holds, why wasnt he immediatly taken into custody?
He ran like hell! He was across the street and into the hood before anyone could get close to him.
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
Not beat up, many systems are still administering corporal punishment(paddling, straps, etc.)
I must honestly say that I'm pretty disturbed after hearing that. It was banned here in 1890 so it sounds pretty medieval to me. I'm not saying however, that it's totally wrong and that the US is bad.
-
19 years old and still in highschool? :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by mora
I must honestly say that I'm pretty disturbed after hearing that. It was banned here in 1890 so it sounds pretty medieval to me. I'm not saying however, that it's totally wrong and that the US is bad.
Actually I believe that things started getting worse when they banned corporal punishment.
This touchy feely PC BS is ruining this country.
-
If you have a job or live in a plae where you can't do the right thing...
you need to....
do the right thing (too late now) you should hve restrained him even if that meant fist to jaw.
leave the job and the city after you have done your legal duty in court.
stay there and look the other way in the future.
lazs
-
Originally posted by SunKing
19 years old and still in highschool? :rolleyes:
That's what I was thinkin'.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
If you have a job or live in a plae where you can't do the right thing...
you need to....
do the right thing (too late now) you should hve restrained him even if that meant fist to jaw.
leave the job and the city after you have done your legal duty in court.
stay there and look the other way in the future.
lazs
Sounds like he needs to leave. He could be the next target.
If he actually restrained that kid then he'd have to look over his shoulder the rest of his career dealing with hoods like that. It's a bad situation all around.
-
and that is why votes coming out of the blue areas shouldn't count.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Mighty1
Actually I believe that things started getting worse when they banned corporal punishment.
This touchy feely PC BS is ruining this country.
That's very much possible. Maybe it works in your culture but to me it's completely out of this world. I actually start laughing when I think of situation where I'd say to a 16 yo that I'm going to paddle him/her. If I'd be a parent I'd be disturbed if my kid wouldn't defend himself by force in a situation like that. Also I can't imagine a typical teacher ever having the balls to do it.
-
Originally posted by mora
That's very much possible. Maybe it works in your culture but to me it's completely out of this world. I actually start laughing when I think of situation where I'd say to a 16 yo that I'm going to paddle him/her. If I'd be a parent I'd be disturbed if my kid wouldn't defend himself by force in a situation like that. Also I can't imagine a typical teacher ever having the balls to do it.
I saw a 6'3" 245lb 17 year old spit in a girls face three years ago when I worked in Mississippi. I came up to the young man and told him his options: Suspension or paddling? He chose the paddling. So I grabbed my paddle(20 inches long, 8 inches wide, 1 inch thick Oak wood) and asked him to grab the wall. After the third stinger lit his bellybutton up, he went and apologized to the young lady and I never saw him do that again!:aok
-
:rofl
He got a good deal I would say. I don't see a lot harm in it, if offered as a choice.
-
17 crips in 1 calss? Hmmm, how about a stricnine laced watermelon?
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
lucky thing you aren't one of those racists.
How the hell do you know what I am?
Tell me how I amd a "Uncle Tom" or a "Racist" the next time I have to breathe for a 4 year old little girl because one of these animals decided he was "disrespected" and whipped out his 9 and sprayed the corner.
Make more assumptions about me while I try to clean the little girls blood from my hands while I hear her mother shreiking over her tiny corpse.
Judge what you THINK my thoughts are as I go home and hug my own little girl, hoping I can keep her safe from these animals.
Then go piss up a rope.
Typical liberal knee jerk reaction.
-
There are those who live in the real world of crime and thugs, and there are those who watch it on TV and think they know everything. Shaky is denied the illusion that all people are really good at heart and just need understanding.
-
Originally posted by mora
:rofl
He got a good deal I would say. I don't see a lot harm in it, if offered as a choice.
I don't know a system that doesn't require the teacher to give a choice!
-
By the way, Principal Jackson was overwhelmed by students today to start a fund for officer White and his family. The school and community is very upset about what happened. I don't know anyone who doesn't like officer White.
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
By the way, Principal Jackson was overwhelmed by students today to start a fund for officer White and his family. The school and community is very upset about what happened. I don't know anyone who doesn't like officer White.
Probably the other 12 punks don`t think to highly of officer White if he got cuffed and stuffed. Something to think about. He`s 19, he acts like an attack dog on school property..................... .not much of a decision to be made. Take his *** down. I couldn`t abide by a system such as you describe. One that opens the door and makes it easier for crap like this to take place. I`d either get out or raise hell and open some eyes. You don`t cure a rabid dog problem by telling everyone to just stay out of it`s way and friggen ignore that there is a problem.
-
there used to be something called 'citizens arrest'.
using force to restrain the perpetrator of a crime could be considered a violation of the perpetrators civil rights. however in your cirumstance i would have decked the guy when he ran towards me then restrained him 'in citizens arrest' untill relieved by the authorities. I'd allege that decking him was self defense. unless the dirtbag has a better lawyer than you do, you'd be cool.
sadly, you'd be a marked man in that neighborhood from that moment on. wouldn't give a penny for your chances of survival unless you are willing to establish yourself as the meanest mutha shucker in the school, enlisted a large group of like minded teahers and administrators and you all pulled together to make a change in the way things go down in that enviornment.
So, I'd say you did the right thing to preserve your own saftey. you did nothing to change your community. bear in mind there is no guilt to assume on your part.. your community has made it's choice (every one who saw that crime made the same choice you did when he ran towards them).
if that dosen't bug you, then yer cool, enjoy living in that ****hole.
if it does bug you, make a stand or get the hell out.
status-quo is a statement all it's own, ain't it?
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Did you witness the crime? If you did, you might be liable for violating the samaritan law..... you better move.
I don't think that would apply to this case. If he'd had witnessed the event, then said, "Ouch! Too bad. Well, I better get to class..." then the law would have applied because he failed to aid the injured officer. From my understanding, the officer was pushed and the scum fled, he didn't stand over the officer kicking him, or try to go for any weapons to further injure him.
Sadly, if SkyRock touched the "kid", he probably would have been burnt at the stake when the kid showed up in court wearing a suit, sporting a black eye, and his grandma sobbing about how her little baby would never do anything to hurt anyone.
SkyRock, is leaving for another district an option at all? I know you said there were other kids with potential and I applaud you for your dedication, but you won't do them much good from the hospital bed or casket.
-
I would have used "the minimum force neccesary to compel compliance" and laid his bellybutton out. I retire from the Coast Guard in 4 years and I'm looking to be a teacher (history). Yeah I would have taken him down and restrained him, and delt with the school board and courts afterwards.
In my opinion, by doing nothing and his little buddies seeing you do nothing only boost their already oversized ego's. Make an object leason out of one of them and then challange the rest to try the same thing, and put the fear into them.
I'm sorry about your friend and I hope me makes a speedy recovery.
I don't know maybe when I become a teacher my opinion will change but right now I feel that I would have done something.
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
sadly, you'd be a marked man in that neighborhood from that moment on. wouldn't give a penny for your chances of survival unless you are willing to establish yourself as the meanest mutha shucker in the school, enlisted a large group of like minded teahers and administrators and you all pulled together to make a change in the way things go down in that enviornment.
You mean form a "gang" with some other teachers?
So, I'd say you did the right thing to preserve your own saftey. you did nothing to change your community. bear in mind there is no guilt to assume on your part.. your community has made it's choice (every one who saw that crime made the same choice you did when he ran towards them).
Let me clear this up, as it unfolded, I didn't have a realistic chance of hitting the kid as he was to far away from me and there were other students in between. He exit was incredibly fast as well.
-
I believe you acted with appropriate restraint. If you did try to detain the student and couldn't, you would probably be on charges with him claiming you damaged his arm.
Here in Virginia, there is a "three strikes and your out" law. That only applies to adults. I believe that approach should be extended to adolescents as well. There is always a question between mental age, physical maturity, and legal age. Physical maturity should be used when the person is not mentally underdeveloped and commits a violent crime. Reason, hope, and consistency are not effective tools to fight violent criminals who want to cause damage and destruction. Lock them up! The courts are (slowly) taking that position as well.
Regards,
Malta
-
MEMPHIS - On December 15 2005 at approx. 2:00 PM, Officer Kedzie White, an officer assigned to schools, was injured as he attempted to arrest a student during an altercation in the Fairley High School gym.
The student body had assembled in the gymnasium for a Christmas program. There was a disturbance in the bleachers and Officer White was requested for assistance to quell the disturbance.
According to school officials, the student, Terrell Johnson, age 16, refused to leave the gym, and continued to create a disturbance. Officer White went into the bleachers to arrest Johnson. Johnson struggled with Officer White and pushed him away, propelling the two of them from the bleachers. Officer Kedzie landed head first on the gymnasium floor. Johnson was able to rise and flee from the school.
At approximately 3:00 pm, 15 December 2005, South Precinct officers took Johnson into custody after he arrived at Methodist South emergency room. Felony Assault Unit investigators later charged Terrell Johnson with Aggravated Assault, Resisting Official Detention and Disorderly Conduct. Homicide detectives were on the scene and assisted.
Officer White, a 16 year veteran, remains in the MED and is being treated for a head injury and internal injuries. He is in stable condition. Officer White has been assigned to the Officers in Schools program since 1990.
http://www.wreg.com/global/story.asp?s=4251569
-
Skyrock,
You already know where you stand in the system. The district will not back you at all as the suspect is a juvinile (according to the article). Being that you were in a crowd of smaller kids trying to stop this hemorhoid would likely have caused injuries to one or more of them.
Your best option is the one you used. Do nothing phyisically and be a competent and accurate witness for the later trial. Unfortunately since this hemorhoid is a juvie he likely will not be tried as an adult and will be out (if he even goes into juvie detention) by the time he's 18.
You realize you will be a target for the rest of this scums gang once you testify. You really should consider leaving this particular school and hopefully leave some of the gang crap behind. It won't go away and you're reputation with the other wannabes and gang pukes will follow you long after this trial is over. This situation is not a case of leaving a "child" behind but ridding the education facility of a parasite that does nothing but detract from an educational situation.
As to some of the other comments posted in this thread by pot stirers, you guys really need to have a nice cup of stfu.
-
Originally posted by Ripper29
MEMPHIS - On December 15 2005 at approx. 2:00 PM, Officer Kedzie White, an officer assigned to schools, was injured as he attempted to arrest a student during an altercation in the Fairley High School gym.
The student body had assembled in the gymnasium for a Christmas program. There was a disturbance in the bleachers and Officer White was requested for assistance to quell the disturbance.
According to school officials, the student, Terrell Johnson, age 16, refused to leave the gym, and continued to create a disturbance. Officer White went into the bleachers to arrest Johnson. Johnson struggled with Officer White and pushed him away, propelling the two of them from the bleachers. Officer Kedzie landed head first on the gymnasium floor. Johnson was able to rise and flee from the school.
At approximately 3:00 pm, 15 December 2005, South Precinct officers took Johnson into custody after he arrived at Methodist South emergency room. Felony Assault Unit investigators later charged Terrell Johnson with Aggravated Assault, Resisting Official Detention and Disorderly Conduct. Homicide detectives were on the scene and assisted.
Officer White, a 16 year veteran, remains in the MED and is being treated for a head injury and internal injuries. He is in stable condition. Officer White has been assigned to the Officers in Schools program since 1990.
http://www.wreg.com/global/story.asp?s=4251569
Thanks ripper I was told by another teacher Terrell was over 18, I stand corrected.
-
I'd update resume, and find a better school to teach at.
There is *nothing* worth you or your family's life and limb.
These kids are dangerous, and the administration has already shown they won't protect you, and God help you if you protect yourself.
-GE (personally.. I would have found out where he lived, and had a chat with him, his dad, his friends, and anyone else that wanted to chat about what he did and why he would be ill-advised to attempt that kind of behaviour again.. and I would not have gone alone to do so.. if the chat escalated to more than that ..adult supervision would be arranged .. that's just me)