Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Kweassa on December 15, 2005, 07:45:18 PM
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I was thinking - just a loose idea at the moment...
What if the town capture mechanics changes to "capture and hold the flag" style of urban battles, instead of the current "insert 10 coins" style?
For instance, instead of having to kill all the town buildings and walk in 10 troops at a given time, the objective would be something like;
1) land 20 troops and walk them into the map room
2) drop 3 field supplies on the town (supplies used to set up a town HQ)
3) drop 3 vehicle supplies on the town
4) there is no need to kill all the buildings in the town
5) achieve conditions 1, 2, 3 - and the ownership of the town changes
In other words, the capture conditions become harder, but the there is no need to kill the entire town to capture it, and besides, it would be more fun. Busting town buildings would be optional, a condition to aid the town capture, not a pure necessity.
What I'm visioning is a "capture the flag, set up a HQ, hold the town until supplies arrive to capture it" sort of urban battle. This may sound complex, but it really isn't. Please carefully read the 'process' of capturing the town I will explain below, and imagine what it might be like.
* Initially, a town will be empty of defenses except 3~4 acks.
* When a defender's M3 or C-47 drops troops on a defender's town, the troops will walk in and set up defenses at the closest town building. Five troops will take up one town building - and the town building where friendly troops 'set the defenses up', will be visually confirmable - maybe something like a big flag with Bish/Rook/Knit waving over it.
* When 5 friendly troops "set up" inside a building, the building will start firing 20mm acks from it.
* The attacking side doesn't need to kill all the buildings to capture the town - but obviously, when many many defending troops are "set up" inside the town buildings, it will be impossible to just walk troops in.
* So the attacking side, will have to identify and kill the town buildings which are shooting acks at them. Ofcourse, when the defending side "set up" only 3~4 town buildings it won't be too difficult - fly over the town, see where the shots are coming from, and strafe dead the town building.
* But if the defenses were organized and they have set up massive number of troops inside the town, virtually all the town buildings can each act as ack stations (!!!) Imagine all the town buildings are firing 20mm acks at your plane - this is pretty realistic in the sense that a small number of fighter/jabo planes smack at the middle of enemy controlled city/town would be near suicide.
* So, if many many defending troops "set up" the defenses at the town, then large, massive air strikes are necessary. You may have to turn the entire town into a parking lot to walk your troops in.
* However, that's not the end. Once the town defenses are all taken care of, 20 troops, 3 field supplies, 3 vehicle supplies must be dropped at the town. When these supplies land at the town and troops walk in the map room, the ownership of the town, and the airfield tied to it, will finally change.
* The positive side for the attacking side is that now, the progress of town capture is not limited by a certain time. It doesn't matter if you've dropped troops or supplies 1 or 2 hours ago. The progress is solid and persistent, and no automatic "town building up" will reverse it.
* This progress will be verified by clicking on the town and seeing the progress. It will show info such as:
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Town Capture Progress
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Required Troops: 11/20
Required Vehicle Supplies: 2/3
Required Field supplies: 3/3
* Therefore, even if it takes a long time, as long as the town and its airspace remains under control, there is always a chance to capture the town regardless of town building reupping or not.
* The town capture progress, can also be viewed by the defending side. When all the town defenses are down and the moment the first required trooper belonging to the attackers enters the maproom unscathed, the town enters a capture phase.
* To reverse the process, the defending side has to land and walk in its own troops. If the defenders walk in 10 troops, it will diminish 20 troops the attackers walked in. 6 defending troops worth 3 supplies.
* In other words, once the attacking troop enters the map room, the defenders have to walk in 1 defender troop to kill 2 attacker troops. The defenders have to walk in 2 defender troops to diminish 1 attacker supplies.
* For example, the attackers killed all the town defenses. They start to walk in their troops and land supplies. The progress is, 8 troops made it to the map room, 2 supplies landed. For the defending side, in order to make this null and void, and be able to station troops inside town buildings at the 'defending phase', it needs to walk in;
4(to kill 8 attacking troops) + 4(to diminish 2 attacker supplies landed) = 8 troops
.... into the map room to regain control.
* Therefore, as harsh as this may sound for the attacking side, once the town is under control by the attackers, and the airfield troops/supplies are down, it would be almost impossible for the defenders to reverse the capture process and regain full control of the town again - as long as the attackers are present.
* To sum it up;
1. In the 'contesting phase'
- five defending troops walk into one town building to set up one 20mm ack
- the moment a single attacking trooper enters the map room, it changes to 'capture phase'
2. In the 'capture phase'
- when defenders drop troops at the town, they do not set up defenses in town buildings. They head for the maproom
- 1 defending troop kills 2 attacking troops made it to the map room
- 2 defending troop kills 1 attacker supply landed at the town
3. For the attackers to capture the town and field
- enter 20 troops into map room
- drop 3 vehicle supplies and 3 field supplies at the town
4. For the defenders to drive out attackers from the town and shift to 'contesting phase' again
- kill all attacker troops and supplies
The Pros
This sounds complicated, but it really isn't. It's just a simple set of new rules and conditions which makes town captures change - not necessarily for easier or harder.
As it is, town capture is made difficult because the entire town needs to be dead, and 10 troops must enter when the town is all down. It can take hours and hours to capture one field, despite a horde completely owns the airspace, because a goon hunter can pick out a few goons... and then the town will reup.. and all the progress becomes null and void.
However, in this suggestion, the town doesn't need to be down. Drop the required stuff and the town is captured. This actually makes blitzing the map easier.. !!
If there is an unprepared town, no defenses set up - an NOE mission with very good preparations: 2 goons for troops, 6 goons for supplies, some fighter/jabo to kill initial town defenses... can take the town in a matter of minutes. Just kill the basic town acks, drop troops and supps and that's it. Or, a well prepared ground assault also could capture a field within a matter of minutes - tanks head in first, knock the acks down, then the M3s come in and bam, its over.
This will force people to respond quicker to defenses - instead of leaving fields empty and undefended, they will have to respond immediately, verify enemy capture phase, and counter it - or the town falls in a matter of minutes.
Also, if a horde takes control of the airspace and works long and persistently towards capturing the town, then every troop, every supply dropped on the town counts. There's no time limit. The town building reupping doesn't mean anything. The defending side must actively enter its own defender troops to delay/push back capture progress. One or two goon hunters will not work, because even only if one or two troops walk in, they will stay there and count. No automatic town up will nullify it.
This, actually makes field captures easier.
However, IF the defenses are well prepared, then things change. Imagine a situation where the defenders guess a big attack is coming. They start moving massive number of troops to the town. All the town buildings are now armed - the town now turns into a gigantic patch of ack formation. It will be like seeing the task group acks on land. This represents a town fully prepared for war, with its AA defenses set up. It will make jabo/strafing much much harder than it ever was, and attacking fighters won't want to venture near the airfield at low alts.
A situation like this calls for large number of air strikes, be it jabos or bombers, to the town, and totally flatten it, to have a chance to capture it.
All in all,
it makes unprepared towns much easier to capture,
and fully prepared towns much harder to capture.
When enemy attack is imminent, some people will grab fighters, others will have to grab M3s and move troops into the town to prepare for a fight.
It's not a real urban battle as in the First Person Shooter sense, but I think it's gonna make the game really really interesting.
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I very much like this idea, obviously, it took alot of thinking! A nicely set up idea indeed
Although 1 comment, you say the to-be-captured field needs 3 field supplies, but that would take 3 C-47's! wouldn't that be abit much?
All in all, the minimum amount of Skytrains will be 6!
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basicly you ask to use 7 people to fly/drive goon or m3 insted of current 1
its easier to flat town then find 6 goon pilots or somebody who will like spend 1,5 hour driving m3 to capture 1 field (if its undefended)
also there gonna be 6 easy targets to kill insted of 1, cuz if somebody start process of capturing you can expect him to come back another 6 times.
Imagine 6 guys taken from fight and fly 3 sectors goon when 1 plane can pork most of resources on airfield and stop any offensive actions for hours.
In current conditions of MA, if airfield is defended it can take hours to capture it.
According to your idea jumping from island to island would be impossible without porking 3-4 nearstest bases around for 1-2 hours, to not let anyone interrupt capturing process (totally flat airfields).
Would be enough to set up 1 tiger to kill any currage of attacking troops.
conclusion , noone would like to play base capture game , most of people will focus on furballing. BAse captured you wil saw only sundays, during squad nights when you can find 20+ people to start such a mission.
Idea with fighting troops and increse defence abilities of town by adding more ack is nice, supplies not
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Good point. Better think of an alternative to make it more compact.
Still, I'd like to think the town up/down not affecting town capture progress would make some kind of impact to equalize the suggested problems. It already takes a lot of goons to capture a field as it is - its not a rare thing to see a target airfield totally under the control of the "horde" and yet still remain uncaptured because the town ups again and again, and goons being hunted down everytime.
Also, I'd like to keep the "defensive troops taking up positions inside town buildings" idea - perhaps this idea could be used alone.
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Oops doppelt post.
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Originally posted by ramzey
basicly you ask to use 7 people to fly/drive goon or m3 insted of current 1
its easier to flat town then find 6 goon pilots or somebody who will like spend 1,5 hour driving m3 to capture 1 field (if its undefended)
also there gonna be 6 easy targets to kill insted of 1, cuz if somebody start process of capturing you can expect him to come back another 6 times.
Imagine 6 guys taken from fight and fly 3 sectors goon when 1 plane can pork most of resources on airfield and stop any offensive actions for hours.
In current conditions of MA, if airfield is defended it can take hours to capture it.
According to your idea jumping from island to island would be impossible without porking 3-4 nearstest bases around for 1-2 hours, to not let anyone interrupt capturing process (totally flat airfields).
Would be enough to set up 1 tiger to kill any currage of attacking troops.
conclusion , noone would like to play base capture game , most of people will focus on furballing. BAse captured you wil saw only sundays, during squad nights when you can find 20+ people to start such a mission.
Idea with fighting troops and increse defence abilities of town by adding more ack is nice, supplies not
Nobody ever said war was easy either Ramzey
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Hmmm 7 targets instead of 1.
Hmmmm Seems to me that means more easy C-47 kills for everyone.
Isn't that a good thing??
As to your "ack houses", as long as you can tell which ones are "hot" in a bomber at 15k, sure, why not. Heck just come through, level the town flat. Then start the process.
As to the ack itself, tie the size of round it shoots to the # of people in the house.
IE 1 - 3 = .303
4- 6 = .50
7- 10 = 20mm
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I would like troops to do more stuff.
1) occupy town buildings (whether the building is destroyed or not) and shoot enemy troops from them.
2)destroy enemy town buildings (sapper troops)
If you release troops at an enemy town that has some buildings up they divide amongst the buildings still up and blow them up.
Some may get shot by troops occupying the buildings.
Whether 1 troop = 1 building and if you loose that trooper blowing the building up .........I am not sure either way..........its a detail.
If you have taken a town you can re enforce its defences by adding troops that go hide in the buildings (one trooper building) and shoot at enemy stuff. (the buildings takes on the properties of a .303 rifle and after that behaves like a .303 ground gun). Destroying the building kills the trooper in it.
Towns could still be taken by the one goon............ but if the M3 arrives early and the town is not taken down he does not have to wait forever or consider his mission wasted he could release and kill some buildings.
Equally the second goon/m3 is re enforcing the capture rather than wasting the mission because he got there late.
Troopers would have tracerless rifles. troopers should lose their icons IMO
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Y'know, Ramz, that sorta enemy suppression sounds a lot like how things were done during the REAL war. ;)
I also don't see it changing things all THAT much. All most anyone seems to do in there is furball, anyway.
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yea, but thats AH MA reality, why you think we dont have complex engine managment for aircrafts? ;)
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I guess the most satisfactory result would be seen when troops change from the current passive status as an 'object' and move on to an AI 'being'..
The whole point of this was to perhaps spark a bit of variation and a pinch of small realism to the town/city battles - but the real reason that makes brain storming difficult is that ultimately, the troops are totally passive..
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Like the idea :aok However it's pretty tough to find one or two goon pilots as it is let alone 6 per capture.
Prehaps if the C47 with troops or field supplies were given the formation option it would work better. You would still have the dynamic of troop defended towns but wouldn't need quite so many goon pilots.
It'd be kinda cool to see 30 troops in chutes any way but I guess that is a different wish.
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One simple thing that would make captures a bit tuffer is to put something besides 88mm ack in the towns.
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Town isn't captured until peace & order are restored & a new mayor is elected in a Carter approved vote
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I really like this idea... one thing that it might do is allow the devs to open up the transport planeset a bit.
If I'm not mistaken, the C-47 could carry upwards of 25 soldiers. So, you could increase the number of soldiers a Goon can carry (maybe not 25, but at least 15 or 20, since the number of soldiers required is now a bit more dynamic depending upon the situation in the town). Then, perhaps they could add a new transport or two which sacrifice troop load for speed, etc. Maybe a late model Ju-52 carrying 10 or 15 soldiers, or maybe an Albemarle or a Caproni Ca 148.
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I like the thinking that went into this. If nothing else perhaps it could change the c-47 = m3 dynamic we have now. C-47 carrying 20 troops or 2 field supplies vs. m3 with 10 troops or 1 field supply would be a good start.
In other threads there are discussions of adding jeeps. With this type of complex capture, jeeps could be added for support as well.
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I just picture bishops running pell mell all over the map persistently trying to capture undefended bases, I dont think it does much to encourage air combat.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I guess the most satisfactory result would be seen when troops change from the current passive status as an 'object' and move on to an AI 'being'..
The whole point of this was to perhaps spark a bit of variation and a pinch of small realism to the town/city battles - but the real reason that makes brain storming difficult is that ultimately, the troops are totally passive..
Correct me if im wrong Kwe. You are not suggesting that base capture be tougher and the attacking force offer up more sacrificial lambs (6 or more C-47's)?
You are merely proposing that there be more stuff happening to take a town resulting in base capture?
I don’t think you are.
I think Tilt might be onto something. How’s about dropping 10 or 20 troops and the troops be the ones that go around destroying the town buildings?
JOBOS would be for field targets and GVs
(pros) 1. Cool stuff happening while you watch.(Buildings seemingly crumbling to the ground like magic.)
2. A single defender wouldn’t put and end to 30+ minutes of hard work by one simple act of suicide of killing a poor C-47 in one pass. (They would have to seek and destroy every troop to stop the destruction completely.
(cons) gota run for now. I’m sure someone will think of them for me ;)
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Originally posted by slimey_J
I really like this idea... one thing that it might do is allow the devs to open up the transport planeset a bit.
If I'm not mistaken, the C-47 could carry upwards of 25 soldiers. So, you could increase the number of soldiers a Goon can carry (maybe not 25, but at least 15 or 20, since the number of soldiers required is now a bit more dynamic depending upon the situation in the town). Then, perhaps they could add a new transport or two which sacrifice troop load for speed, etc. Maybe a late model Ju-52 carrying 10 or 15 soldiers, or maybe an Albemarle or a Caproni Ca 148.
C47 could carry 14 Troopers.
Or a Crap load of fuel! LOL (Red gerry Cans)
I have had the pleasure of knowing a Skytrain pilot from WWII.
The stories of hualing fuel in a SkyBomb are chilling indeed.:noid
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
C47 could carry 14 Troopers.
You sure about that? Pretty much every reference I've seen has it listed as 25 or 28 soldiers. The CG-4A glider, on the other hand, could only carry 13 or 14.
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Just going by what a WWII vet at an airshow told me when i walked through a C-47. There were 14 seats not including the Pilot CO-Pilot and i think there was even a navigator,(Not sure bout that). Im sure you could pack em in on the floor if you wanted.
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Found on the web -- 14 to a side, 2 "sticks" (squads) of paratroopers.
Technical Details
The C-47 typically carried a crew of 3, pilot, co-pilot and navigator/radio operator. When dropping supplies a loadmaster and two handlers were kept busy pushing loads out the door over the target. It was powered by a pair of 1000 hp (880 kW) Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 engines. These power houses gave it a maximum speed of 228 mph (368km/h) with a ceiling of 23300 ft (7100m) and a range of 1500 miles (2400 km). As a freighter it could carry 10,000 lb (4500 kg, including 6 crewmen) or 28 seats (including pulling a glider full of men).
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Originally posted by E25280
Found on the web -- 14 to a side, 2 "sticks" (squads) of paratroopers.
Technical Details
The C-47 typically carried a crew of 3, pilot, co-pilot and navigator/radio operator. When dropping supplies a loadmaster and two handlers were kept busy pushing loads out the door over the target. It was powered by a pair of 1000 hp (880 kW) Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 engines. These power houses gave it a maximum speed of 228 mph (368km/h) with a ceiling of 23300 ft (7100m) and a range of 1500 miles (2400 km). As a freighter it could carry 10,000 lb (4500 kg, including 6 crewmen) or 28 seats (including pulling a glider full of men).
LOL must been 14 per side. Maybe i have Ronald Regans "I dont recall" desise? :D
There ya go. :aok
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I like the idea but the 20mm flak from all those buildings if someone just sets up a whole bunch of goons in there to defend could be horrendous. But it could be like different types of troops.
5 Light troops=303. machine gun
5 heavy troops=7.62mm or something a bit bigger caliber bullet
^^^mainly for anti troop defenses^^^^
Also, we could different types of troops like rcon troops which can go scout out and mark gv's and stuff on the map or sappers and stuff to take out hangers and buildings. In addition, we could have it so we would have to take the map room and the tower by amounting attack troops and stuff to atack and the defenders can let out "defense troops from M3's where they get dropped off and set up a "defensive" position. But to make sure this doesn't turn into a shooter or get critizized for this just make it simple and not over do this and turn it inot counter strike and stuff. But just to make base caputuring more strategic. In addition, more enjoyable to watch and to give a capped field a chance to defend until friendly planes arrive and what not.