Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: airbumba on December 15, 2005, 09:30:12 PM
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The town where I live now, (also where I grew up) since I'm back taking care of our mother, has just had it's first police officer killing since it's creation in 1965. Although the town only incorperated in 65, it's been here since 1740 or so....
Anyway that aside Laz. Up here handguns and automatic assault rifles are far and few between, but high powered hunting rifles are everywhere. I thought when i fired a 7mm magnum rifle, it was as powerfull as you could get, short of something like a Weatherby. But in this article the mention a .338 that the dude shot through the dor and easily traversed the vest she was wearing.
My question is , what's a .338? and where does that fit in with a 7mm mag. and a weatherby, or .308 Mauser..etc?
I'll include the link to the story.
Thanks in advance for explaining where these different cal. and sizes fit in to each other.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20051215/ca_pr_on_na/que_cop_killed
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it doesn't take a .338 to penetrate a vest. Prettymuch any centerfire rifle can do that.
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I do hope you read that article with a grain of salt.
"Laval police Chief Jean-Pierre Gariepy said the weapon that killed Gignac was a .338-calibre rifle, which can drop a target from a kilometre away.
"It's a hunting gun," Gignac said. "It's used in the jungle for the hunting of elephants. It's a very powerful arm.""
Though I do trust you have looked past this.
I don't have any direct dealings with it, but from what I've heard at my club, people like it for bigger deer, I.E. Elk, Moose... Though you can use smaller calibers.
The .338 would probably be overkill for your standard WhiteTail.
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the honest to God truth is that a run of the mill "deer gun" is the ultimate weapon and far exceeds the capability of any assualt rifle or handgun.
Srry to here bout your lawman...
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they are probly talking about a 338 norma mag.
It is about as powerful as a 7mm mag. If you really want I can go upstairs ang get out the energy tables but suffice it to say that it has about 3 times the energy of a 44 mag hundgun.
The fallacy of gun control is that they will allow "sporting and hunting" use. the 338 is a hunting rifle as are most high powered rifles and shotguns.
it is little reported that 80% of people who are shot with a handgun survive, or, about the same ratio as those who survive knife attacks.
the ratio for people who survive high powered rifle or shotgun attacks is about 5% Assault rifles are simply low powered rifles and as such are much more survivable than either high powered (normal hunting) rifles or shotguns.
Soooo... make people give up handguns that arguablyu are the best at survivability with 80% survivability but at least 80% ability to "stop" the attack and you will simply arm the murderers with more deadly (in the case of rifles or shotguns) firearms or.... weapons such as knives that are just as deadly as the now banned handguns but do little to stop the assault (more offensive than defensive weapon).
Add to this that a criminal is more likely to charge a knife weilding potential victim than a handgun weilding one. especially if the victim is a woman.
lazs
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.338 Win mag
VELOCITY ENERGY TRAJECTORY
CARTRIDGE BULLET MFG. WT. TYPE MUZZ. 100 YDS. 200 YDS. 300 YDS. 400 YDS. 500 YDS. MUZZ. 100 YDS. 200 YDS. 300 YDS. 400 YDS. 500 YDS. 100 YDS. 300 YDS. 400 YDS. 500 YDS.
.338 Win. Mag. (F) 180 PP 3120 2860 2380 2160 1950 3850 3265 2730 2265 1860 1520 +1.4 -6.5 -19.1 -39.2
(W) 200 PP 2960 2658 2375 2110 1862 1635 3890 3137 2505 1977 1539 1187 +2.0 -8.2 -24.3 -50.4
(S) 200 HP 2950 2724 2509 2303 2108 1922 3866 3295 2795 2357 1973 1641 +1.6 -7.1 -20.8 -42.4
(R) 210 SP 2830 2602 2385 2179 1983 1798 3734 3157 2653 2214 1834 1508 +1.8 -7.9 -23.2 -47.4
(H) 225 SP-HM 2950 2714 2491 2278 2075 1884 4347 3680 3098 2591 2151 1772 +1.9 -7.5 -21.8 -44.1
(F) 225 TB-HE 2940 2690 2450 2230 2010 1810 4320 3610 2000 2475 2025 1640 +1.7 -7.5 -22.0 -45.0
(F) 225 TBBC 2800 2560 2330 2110 1900 1710 3915 3265 2700 2220 1800 1455 +1.9 -8.4 -24.5 -50.6
(R) 225 A 2785 2517 2266 2029 1808 1605 3871 3165 2565 2057 1633 1286 +2.0 -8.8 -25.2 -54.1
(S) 225 SP 2780 2572 2374 2184 2003 1832 3860 3305 2837 2389 1999 1663 +1.9 -8.1 -23.4 -47.5
(F) 225 X 2800 2610 2430 2260 2090 1930 3915 3405 2950 2545 2180 1860 +1.8 -7.7 -22.2 -44.7
(P) 225 X 2600 2415 2239 2073 1912 1760 3377 2914 2505 2148 1826 1548 +2.2 -9.2 -26.5 -53.3
(W) 230 FS 2780 2573 2375 2186 2005 1834 3948 3382 2881 2441 2054 1719 +1.9 -8.1 -23.4 -47.4
(R) 250 SP 2660 2456 2261 2075 1893 1731 3927 3348 2837 2389 1999 1663 +2.1 -8.9 -26.0 -52.7
(F) 250 NOS 2660 2470 2290 2120 1960 1800 3925 3395 2920 2495 2120 1785 +2.1 -8.8 -25.2 -50.7
(F) 250 NOS-HE 2800 2610 2420 2250 2080 1920 4350 3775 3260 2805 2395 2035 +1.8 -7.8 -22.5 -44.9
(N) 250 NOS 2657 2470 2290 2118 1954 1797 3920 3387 2912 2490 2119 1797 +2.1 -8.7 -25.3 -50.9
(A2) 250 BTSP 2700 2568 2439 2314 2193 2075 4046 3659 3302 2972 2669 2390 +1.9 -7.7 -22.0 -43.4
(A2) 250 TRI 2700 2407 2133 1877 1644 1436 4046 3216 2526 1956 1501 1145 +2.3 -9.8 -29.8 -62.1
(W) 250 SP 2650 2467 2291 2122 1960 1807 3899 3378 2914 2500 2134 1812 +2.1 -8.7 -25.2 -50.7
7mm Rem Mag
VELOCITY ENERGY TRAJECTORY
CARTRIDGE BULLET MFG. WT. TYPE MUZZ. 100 YDS. 200 YDS. 300 YDS. 400 YDS. 500 YDS. MUZZ. 100 YDS. 200 YDS. 300 YDS. 400 YDS. 500 YDS. 100 YDS. 300 YDS. 400 YDS. 500 YDS.
7mm Rem. Mag. (H) 139 SP-HM 3250 3041 2022 2613 2413 2223 3300 2854 2458 2106 1797 1525 +1.1 -5.7 -16.6 -33.5
(H) 139 SST-HM 3250 3044 2847 2657 2475 2300 3259 2860 2501 2178 1890 1633 +1.1 -5.5 -16.2 -32.6
(H) 139 BTSP 3150 2933 2727 2530 2341 2160 3063 2656 2296 1976 1692 1440 +1.3 -6.1 -17.7 -35.5
(Hi) 140 SP 3232 2972 2726 2494 2273 2063 3248 2746 2311 1934 1606 1324 +1.2 -5.9 -17.4 -35.7
(Hi) 140 SP 3215 3012 2819 2633 24555 2284 3223 2829 2477 2162 1880 1627 +1.2 -5.6 -16.1 -32.4
(S) 140 SP 3175 2923 2684 2458 2243 2039 3133 2655 2240 1878 1654 1292 +1.3 -6.1 -18.0 -36.9
(P) 140 SP 3100 2837 2589 2355 2135 1929 2987 2503 2084 1725 1417 1156 +1.4 -6.6 -19.5 -40.1
(P) 140 X 3000 2808 2624 2448 2279 2116 2797 2451 2141 1863 1614 1391 +1.5 -6.6 -18.9 -38.0
(BH) 140 HP 3150 2947 2753 2567 2389 2217 3085 2700 2358 2049 1774 1529 +1.3 +5.8 -17.0 -34.2
(S) 140 PP 3100 2900 2710 2520 2350 2180 2985 2615 2280 1980 1715 1475 +1.3 -6.1 -17.6 -35.5
(S) 140 SP 3150 2861 2589 2333 2092 1866 3085 2544 2085 1693 1361 1083 +1.4 -6.6 -19.5 -40.5
(W) 140 BST 3100 2889 2687 2494 2310 2133 2988 2595 2245 1934 1659 1414 +1.3 -6.2 -17.9 -38.1
(P) 140 BTSP 3125 2891 2669 2457 2255 2063 3035 2597 2213 1877 1580 1322 +1.4 -6.3 -18.4 -37.2
(R) 140 SP 2710 2482 2265 2059 1865 1683 2283 1915 1595 1318 1081 880 +2.1 -8.9 -26.0 -53.2
(RWS) 145 SP 3155 2924 2704 2495 2295 2105 3206 2753 2355 2055 1697 1427 +1.3 -6.0 -17.7 -36.0
(F) 145 SP 3025 2735 2465 2210 1965 1745 2945 2410 1955 1570 1245 980 +1.6 +7.3 -21.8 -45.4
(W) 150 SP 3130 2849 2586 2337 2102 1881 3264 2705 2227 1819 1492 1179 +1.4 -6.6 -19.6 -40.4
(S) 150 SP 3110 2830 2568 2320 2085 1866 3221 2667 2196 1792 1448 1160 +1.3 -6.6 -20.2 -43.4
(S) 150 HP 3110 2912 2723 2542 2367 2200 3222 2825 2470 2152 1867 1612 +1.2 -5.9 -17.3 -34.8
(H) 154 SP 3035 2850 2672 2501 2337 2180 3149 2777 2441 2139 1867 1624 +1.4 -6.5 -18.6 -37.1
(N) 156 SP 2953 2670 2404 2153 1920 1702 3021 2470 2002 1607 1277 1004 +1.7 -7.7 -23.0 -47.7
(R) 160 A 2900 2659 2484 2212 2006 1812 2785 2474 2192 1935 1430 1166 +1.7 -7.6 -22.4 -44.7
(W) 160 FS 2920 2678 2449 2331 2025 1830 3030 2549 2131 1769 1457 1190 +1.7 -7.5 -22.0 -44.9
(S) 160 SP 2950 2752 2563 2381 2207 2040 3091 2690 2333 2014 1730 1478 +1.6 -6.8 -19.8 -40.0
(F) 160 TBBC 2940 2710 2550 2290 2100 1900 3070 2615 2215 1870 1565 1300 +1.6 -7.2 -21.0 -42.8
(F) 160 HP 2940 2940 2540 2360 2180 2010 3070 2660 2295 1970 1680 1430 +1.6 -7.0 -20.2 -40.8
(P) 160 SP 2914 2748 2586 2428 2276 2130 3016 2682 2371 2093 1840 1611 +1.6 -6.7 -19.4 -38.7
(P) 160 X 2800 2639 2484 2334 2189 2049 2785 2478 2192 1935 1703 1492 +1.8 -7.4 -21.2 -42.3
(P) 160 BTSP 2900 2696 2501 2314 2135 1965 2987 2582 2222 1903 1620 1371 +1.7 -7.2 -21.0 -42.3
(F) 160 NOS 2950 2770 2590 2420 2250 2090 3090 2715 2375 2075 1800 1555 +1.5 -6.7 -19.4 -39.0
(H) 162 BTSP 2940 2757 2852 2413 2251 2094 3110 2735 2399 2095 1823 1578 +1.5 -6.7 -19.7 -39.3
(F) 165 BTSP 2950 2800 2650 2510 2370 2230 3190 2865 2570 2300 2050 1825 +1.5 -6.4 -18.4 -36.6
(N) 170 SP 2887 2601 2333 2080 1844 1627 3147 2555 2055 1634 1284 999 +1.8 -8.2 -24.6 -51.2
(N) 170 HP 2953 2688 2438 2201 1977 1769 3293 2728 2244 1830 1476 1181 +1.5 -7.0 -20.7 -42.5
(S) 175 SP 2860 2650 2440 2240 2060 1880 3180 2720 2310 1960 1645 1374 +1.7 -7.6 -22.1 -44.8
(F) 175 SP 2860 2660 2470 2120 1900 1700 3180 2626 2150 1745 1400 1120 +1.8 -8.2 -24.0 -49.8
(Hi) 175 NOS 2854 2672 2497 2329 2167 2011 3166 2775 2423 2108 1825 1573 +1.7 -7.3 -21.0 -42.1
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muahahhhahahhahha.
only error in Laz's logic is the 'criminals' only having hunting rifles if assault weapons and handguns are banned. Bans don't affect the criminals aquistion patterns or use of handguns and assualt weapons.
Intelligent citizens who become rilfemen recognize the engagement patterns and weaknesses of assault weapons and handguns. It's doubtful that a wielder of a handgun or assault weapon will long survive hostile contact with an alert rifleman at ANY range.
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You also mention the door and vest as being factors, bumba. The article states that the bullet hit below the vest, so that wasn't a factor. Regardless, patrol vests are not meant to stop any rifle bullet -- anything bigger than a handgun, for that matter. Low power assault rifle rounds, shotgun slugs, and rifle rounds (hell, screwdrivers and knives) all go straight through patrol vests. Her only hope in that situation would be that the door was heavy enough to deform the round or set it tumbling, so that the vest would have some hope of stopping it.
It's a tragedy, but I hope you can recognize the bias in that article. They're really playing up the "omg she got shot with an elephant gun!" aspect.
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yep... if you have a choice.. a full power rifle or shotgun is prefered but... If you want to have a normal life walking around a small concealed handgun is infinitely preferable to nothing and much better than a knife.
as for the "criminals" I am refering to the homicide and suicide rate in general... many "homicides" are defensive. Many attacks are in the heat of passion where a knive or club or fist or handgun is used.... better all of those than a rifle if survivability is a consideration.
The fallacy is that taking handguns out of the mix will lower homicides and suicides by that number (of handgun related homicides and suicides)
even the most rabid anti gun nut who thinks about this knows it isn't true... there is a real danger that the homicides will increase (if high powered rifles and shotguns are used) or, at best, stay the same since handguns are about as effiecient killers as knives say but.... increase by the number of people unable to mount an effective defense once deprived of handguns (women and elderly).
lazs
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The problem is, of course, that hunting rifles and shotguns are not easily concealable, and that's what criminals require.
Despite Lazs's claims, of the firearms murders in the US, about 80% are with handguns, with shotguns and rifles taking about 5% each (the other 10% are unknown)
The lethality of handguns does seem to come into play against police officers, many of whom wear body armour. About 25% of the police officers murdered in the US last year were killed with rifles.
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Ya I thought the article was written a little hoky as well.
Thanks for the info and good comments, .
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When security at your door is the issue, try two claymores, one on each side of the door aimed at a 45 degree angle away to give a complete kill zone.
That will stop the religious solicitors.
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With a lower PK but still effective at keeping the holy rollers outta range try proximity fused heavy metal rock music at deafaning volume. :D
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nashwans figures are correct but his assumptions are not... he assumes that if handguns did not exist that knives or sawed off rifles or shotguns would not be substituted... in the case of knives the fatality rate would be the same as with handguns... with sawed off rifles it would be higher..
not sure what he means about police and body armor except to prove my point... body armor normaly worn by police will stop most handgun rounds but is pretty much inefective against edged weapons, bludgeons and rifles... also.. the spred of a shotgun makes it more effective against body armor since one or more pellets is likely to hit a "soft" spot.
It comes down to.... handguns save lives and lower crime. No country has ever reduced crime or homicides by removing handguns from the people. The U.S. has lowered crime and criminal homicides by right to carry laws (more guns in the hands of citizens)
while any kind of resitance against a criminal is allways better (safer) than submitting... handguns are the very best defense short of the all time leader..... driving or running away... not allways an option tho.. figures show resisting with a handgun about 7 times better than nothing and resisting with a knife about 3 times better or about like fists...
now... elderly and women are not gonna be karate or knife fighters. soo..while the handgun is an excellent offensive weapon for the criminal... it is the very best defensive weapon for the citizen.
The best of both worlds of course is free citizens with handguns and strict penalties for handguns used in crime.
lazs
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The vest I wore while doing bordings was a Level I vest. Standard issue for the Coast Guard and most police officers for patrol duties. It is designed to withstand a point blank hit from a .357. It also has a "trauma plate" 1/8" thick piece of steel that goes in the front over the heart. It's about 5x8" big. Thats it. A .223 rifle round will go straight through it without slowing down. Level III body armor is designed to stop most rifle rounds but it is so bulky that the wearer can't hardly move.
As far as gun control goes.....Hit your target with the first shot and you have control.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
You also mention the door and vest as being factors, bumba. The article states that the bullet hit below the vest, so that wasn't a factor. Regardless, patrol vests are not meant to stop any rifle bullet -- anything bigger than a handgun, for that matter. Low power assault rifle rounds, shotgun slugs, and rifle rounds (hell, screwdrivers and knives) all go straight through patrol vests. Her only hope in that situation would be that the door was heavy enough to deform the round or set it tumbling, so that the vest would have some hope of stopping it.
It's a tragedy, but I hope you can recognize the bias in that article. They're really playing up the "omg she got shot with an elephant gun!" aspect.
Yep. Good factual post Tarmac. When I was at the Michigan National Bank Cash Vault, we were issued Second Chance Ultima Level II vests. IIRC, the S.C. rep stated "Knives, all rifle calibers (incl. .22) can penetrate this vest."
I do believe the Ultima's were found defective and are no longer made, so I am glad I bailed when I did from them. MNB was bought out by Standard Fed. and their idea of security was/is a joke.
Karaya