Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: BALSUR on December 17, 2005, 04:22:58 PM
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What is up with the collisions. I am sick and tired of people ramming and I always die! there's got to be something sone it's absolute BS!
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Originally posted by BALSUR
What is up with the collisions. I am sick and tired of people ramming and I always die! there's got to be something sone it's absolute BS!
Well quit trying to ho:aok
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not just planes, but I like your response:huh, I was in a tiger an a IL2 collides with me twice and I loose a track and he keeps flying. Something seriously wrong when a plane hits a tank and keeps flying IMO!
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*You* collided with him?
Or did *he* collide with you?
Big difference: see the many 'collision whine' threads.....
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I hate it when people cry before trying to understand the collision model. There should be an autolock on these threads...
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When then explain it smart guy. Thats why I posted if you know the answer then tell me.
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both planes should damage and die, just seems like a better solution than whats going on now
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Originally posted by Elyeh
both planes should damage and die, just seems like a better solution than whats going on now
I agree but it will never happen. To many people whine about who hit who, and who should die. People need to grow up and stop complaining about HOs and collisions. They happened in real combat and they happen now, it's a fact of life.
The next big whine will be flying through parts of the plane they just blew up and taking damage. While it does happen if you do it in real life, people won't like that either.
But Balsur does have a point about the current model. Being hit in a tank by a plane and he takes the damage. That's just wrong. Unless he somehow jumped his tank in the air to intentionally hit the plane. Baalsuurr...is there something you're not telling us? ;)
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Originally posted by Skuzzy in another, locked, thread
Here is one of the many discussions HT participated in about this topic (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=163519)
The point is: *You* saw his plane fly through you. *He* saw himself fly over your GV (different position of the 4 vehicles due to net speed and data transfer lag).
On his computer he never was close to you. Why should he get damage?
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So the trick is, sit in the driver's seat or main gun so you don't "see" the collision. :)
Just a joke... but because it's always been a hot topic we need a little levity.
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Originally posted by NHawk
So the trick is, sit in the driver's seat or main gun so you don't "see" the collision. :)
Just a joke... but because it's always been a hot topic we need a little levity.
I always squeeze both eyes shut and switch off the monitor..... :lol
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i understand what your seeing might not be what is happening, but I got the collision message when he hit my tiger.
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Originally posted by BALSUR
i understand what your seeing might not be what is happening, but I got the collision message when he hit my tiger.
Not on his computer. On yours.
If it were on both he would have gone down.
If it were on his, you would have seen him fly OVER you in pieces.
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I think if you hit someone elses plane you should both be hurt.
Lets look at the facts 2 spitfires lets say going 250mph right at each other. No shots are fired they just ram eachother right in the face. THOSE TWO SPITFIRES ARE NOT GOING HOME. If 2 planes collide they should both die or lose a part that will make them die.
Also if they do this it should say you rammed XXXXX so there is no b1tching about who did it. If someone rams someone its both you faults. You cant say someone hit you and its his fault. Its your fault too cause YOUR PLANE WAS IN THE way.
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Originally posted by viper215
I think if you hit someone elses plane you should both be hurt.
Lets look at the facts 2 spitfires lets say going 250mph right at each other. No shots are fired they just ram eachother right in the face. THOSE TWO SPITFIRES ARE NOT GOING HOME. If 2 planes collide they should both die or lose a part that will make them die.
Also if they do this it should say you rammed XXXXX so there is no b1tching about who did it. If someone rams someone its both you faults. You cant say someone hit you and its his fault. Its your fault too cause YOUR PLANE WAS IN THE way.
dunno why this needs to be explained YET again when there is a perfect tool a the top of the page called SEARCH.
but to anwser viper's question.
both people don't SEE the ram. What you SEE on your computer is not what the people around you SEE.
you SEE a ram, you take damage.
the guy you rammed doesn't SEE a ram, he sees a near miss so no damage.
it's what your Front End (your computer) sees that matters.
both Front End's SEE a ram, both take damage.
Only one Front End SEES a ram, only one gets damage.
due to internet lag, what you see and what everybody else sees is different.
Originally posted by hitech
Because if you fly threw a plane, only YOU collided, not what you naturaly assume should be you and the other guy collided.
Because when you refer to BOTH planes you are not taking into account there are in reality 4 planes. 2 on your computer, and 2 on the other guys computer. So when you say both, you are only refering to the 2 on your computer. Because the 2 on the other guys computer did not collide.
HiTech
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Originally posted by viper215
I think if you hit someone elses plane you should both be hurt.
Lets look at the facts 2 spitfires lets say going 250mph right at each other. No shots are fired they just ram eachother right in the face. THOSE TWO SPITFIRES ARE NOT GOING HOME. If 2 planes collide they should both die or lose a part that will make them die.
Also if they do this it should say you rammed XXXXX so there is no b1tching about who did it. If someone rams someone its both you faults. You cant say someone hit you and its his fault. Its your fault too cause YOUR PLANE WAS IN THE way.
You do lose parts when they hit you..:rolleyes:
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I can sum it up....
It's not real life, it's the internet. Maybe some day the technology will be to the point where 2 planes colliding will cause damage to both aircraft. This isn't something set by HTC, it's simply beyond their control(or anybodies). So until that day comes, we're all just gonna have to grin and bear it.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
I always squeeze both eyes shut and switch off the monitor..... :lol
I justget up and go in the other room.... :rofl
Actually, what about the whole lag issue that everyone says it is? Maybe because of the lag, maybe they should just be turned off as if Joe Blow is getting a good connection (or whatever it is) and Joe Shmow is getting a crappy one.... Why is it, Joe Blow will get his wings ripped off while Mr. Shmow cruises off into the sunset fine and dandy.... :confused:
I am not sure what it is, all I know is it takes Two to Ho and if some one wants to Ho my Mossie or 110, so be it.... But it gets boring when Spit's and Lgays always roll right at you with 5k of alt on you and dive in for a HO...... Dweebs I tell you! Dweebs!!!!! :furious
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Originally posted by WMLute
dunno why this needs to be explained YET again when there is a perfect tool a the top of the page called SEARCH.
but to anwser viper's question.
both people don't SEE the ram. What you SEE on your computer is not what the people around you SEE.
you SEE a ram, you take damage.
the guy you rammed doesn't SEE a ram, he sees a near miss so no damage.
it's what your Front End (your computer) sees that matters.
both Front End's SEE a ram, both take damage.
Only one Front End SEES a ram, only one gets damage.
due to internet lag, what you see and what everybody else sees is different.
Thats because HTCs ram model is crapy. I wonder how IL2s ram model is so great becuase when two planes hit they both die.
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Originally posted by Larry
Thats because HTCs ram model is crapy. I wonder how IL2s ram model is so great becuase when two planes hit they both die.
That would be interesting, I could ram a zeke into a tiger and kill it or an M8 into it and kill it :) can you hear the howling now?
shamus
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Originally posted by Larry
Thats because HTCs ram model is crapy. I wonder how IL2s ram model is so great becuase when two planes hit they both die.
How many people are on each of their servers again?
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Originally posted by Larry
Thats because HTCs ram model is crapy. I wonder how IL2s ram model is so great becuase when two planes hit they both die.
Let me ask you something Larry. If you saw a plane fly by you at, say, 25 yards to your left and immediately you lost a wing due to a collision (that you did not see on your front end) would that make you happy? Doubt it!
I agree, is stocks to be in a GV and have some putz fly so close to you that your FE sees a collision but there is little to do about it.
Now, again, for all those who just can't seem to grasp this whole concept. There are 2 messages that appear in the text buffer regarding collisions.
"You have collided", This means that your front end saw a collision and you will receive damage.
"{GameID} collided with you", this means that the other guys FE saw a collision and he takes damage.
If all you receive is the 2nd message and you take damage then you did not get damaged by the collision. Most likely your were shot by the HOing dweeb. A lot of these HOtards will fly right at you with guns blazing and tracers off.
If you see both messages then you both take damage.
If this explanation is just to complex for some of you to understand then I suggest that you just not fly so close to other planes, GVs of ships. That will solve most of your problems.
This topic should be a sticky on this or some other forum.
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Originally posted by Larry
Thats because HTCs ram model is crapy. I wonder how IL2s ram model is so great becuase when two planes hit they both die.
I bet you would be the first to complain when you dodged a Spit and blew up anyway because from the Spit drivers view he hit you.
IL2 is irrelevant. Don't play it. Don't care. I spend my money for this one.
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Jones what your saying makes no since at all. I have a film of me coming about 5-10ft away from some bombers and I die. I didnt see a ram on my computer so why did I die? What HTC means by "seeing" the ram means if I come up behind you and ram you as long as your not looking back I get the damage. And in the HO/ram whoever shoots last before the ram gets the damage.
OOZ lemme guess your ganna try the whole but AH has more people one sever. Well there were around 35 people on last time I ramed in IL2. In the sever with BUMA,CT,TA,DA,SEA theres hardly ever more then 35 people on unless on FSO so why dont they both die in there. Its because HTC doesnt feel like redoing it when they are working on ToD.
And jones I have taken damage many many time when some one ramed me and geting the message that they hit me and they go fly away while I fall down to the ground.
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Originally posted by Larry
OOZ lemme guess your ganna try the whole but AH has more people one sever. Well there were around 35 people on last time I ramed in IL2. In the sever with BUMA,CT,TA,DA,SEA theres hardly ever more then 35 people on unless on FSO so why dont they both die in there. Its because HTC doesnt feel like redoing it when they are working on ToD.
If you made this game, would you rather do a bunch of codes so that it will match how many people are in the server, or would you rather make one that makes at least some sense? The latter I'd bet.
There ARE times when a bunch of people are on (over 500) and that requires a code like the one we have now.
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Originally posted by SkyChimp
You do lose parts when they hit you..:rolleyes:
i know
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i have been looking at this and i have been noticing that if u Shoot to close to ur enemy say 10D and closer ur ammo backfires or somthing and u get dammage. i have noticed this in the DA. but i hate collisions i never HO and when some 1 hits me in a duel i fall out of sky and he flys away like he hit a bug. I THINK BOTH PEOPLE SHOULD DIE.
CATFISH6 LOOK OUT BELOW.
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Originally posted by ujustdied
i have been looking at this and i have been noticing that if u Shoot to close to ur enemy say 10D and closer ur ammo backfires or somthing and u get dammage.
Yes; all ammo (much less on the machine guns) have blast radii. That's why plunking a 20mm at an ack gun is so easy; you don't need to "hit" it per se, however it is much more difficult to hit them with .50 (12.7) or .303 (7.7) ammo.
Originally posted by ujustdied
I THINK BOTH PEOPLE SHOULD DIE.
That's nice.
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I don't think people fully think through the consequences of their wishes.
If their wishes were implimented they would whine so loudly and so long it wouldn't be funny, except for the whole massive irony thing.
Should it be implimented that both die if one collides then you can forget all about Lala dweebs, Sissyfire pansies, Runstangs, Toolshedders, and so on and so on. The whine about people intentionally ramming after you flew 10 minutes to their base would be deafening even compared to the vaunted CHog whining of yore.
But, we can rest comfortably know it will never happen.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
There ARE times when a bunch of people are on (over 500) and that requires a code like the one we have now.
So just because theres sometime over 500 people on the ram model should be have assed.
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As an aside, in the real world, a very SIMILAR problem exists on the observations of simultaneous events.
The topic of Simultaneity is address in the General Theory of Relativity. For reference see the following essay, section C
http://astro.physics.sc.edu/selfpacedunits/Unit56.html
In real life, information can only travel as fast as the speed of light, so two events (flash bulbs going off, or lightening strikes) that are separated by some distance, can appear to observers at various locations, to happen at various times.
Specifically one observer can measure the two events to happen at the same exact moment in time, another observer may measure that first one event occurred, then the second event occurred. BOTH MEASURMENTS ARE ACCURATE!
This same problem translates to the internet, but in this case information travels much slower than the speed of light. Consequently the effect on simultaneous events is GREATLY MAGNIFIED.
The bottom line is, the fine folks at HTC have done everything they can to reduce the problem, but as smart as they are they can not violate the rules of physics.
In the end, it IS expected that two or more players will observe the same event as having different results. This is a physical fact of life, a game played on the internet is still governed by the laws of physics.
What I find impressive is that HTC has done as well as they have, given what they have to work with.
Players mostly complain about collisions between airframes, but rarely do you read of complaints on collisions between an aircraft and incoming bullets.
IMO, here's a big thumbs up :aok to HTC for working with equations in 4 dimensions (3 space and 1 time) and producing (for the most part) a very realistic presentation! WTF go gents!
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Originally posted by ujustdied
i have been looking at this and i have been noticing that if u Shoot to close to ur enemy say 10D and closer ur ammo backfires or somthing and u get dammage. i have noticed this in the DA.
You are aware if you are close and hitting an aircraft pieces come off that aircraft. You hit these pieces an besides a "BRRANNGG" sound you can also incur damage.
Hehe...ammo backfires..always wondered what that BANG sound was when I pulled the trigger. :aok
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Originally posted by Larry
And jones I have taken damage many many time when some one ramed me and geting the message that they hit me and they go fly away while I fall down to the ground.
then they shot you.
pure and simple
the way HT has done it, is really the only viable way to do it.
here's a great example of what 2 diff. FE's "SEE"
(http://members.cox.net/cvarley/ahss32.jpg)
in the picture, look at growler1.
on HIS FE he's launching from from the carrier.
on MY FE he's 300-500 feet away (ish) takin' off in thin air.
if HTC did it any other way, that spit that flew by you 200' out on your FE is nose on and ramming you on THEIR front end. the way you want it, you'd both die from the ram, even though what you saw was a plane 200' away.
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Originally posted by WMLute
then they shot you.
pure and simple
the way HT has done it, is really the only viable way to do it.
here's a great example of what 2 diff. FE's "SEE"
in the picture, look at growler1.
on HIS FE he's launching from from the carrier.
on MY FE he's 300-500 feet away (ish) takin' off in thin air.
if HTC did it any other way, that spit that flew by you 200' out on your FE is nose on and ramming you on THEIR front end. the way you want it, you'd both die from the ram, even though what you saw was a plane 200' away.
Thats two different things hes takeing off not shooting at you. And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.
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Originally posted by Larry
Thats two different things hes takeing off not shooting at you. And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.
you know he wasn't shooting how?
what was the message your received? i.e. who collided w/ who?
where's the film?
what you describe reminds me of a post a guy made about how field ack couldn't be killed with .50 cal's.
he ranted for a paragraph, going on and on about his hundreds of hits that he had on the ack gun and provided the film. HTC reviewed it, and only a couple rounds out of the hundreds he sprayed actually hit the target. But HE was SURE that hundreds upon hundreds of rounds landed, and gosh darn it, AH must be bugged, and the ack gun was porked, and whaa whaa whaa whaa whaa.
Turns out he just couldn't aim.
I'm thinking ya' dealing with a similar situation here. That lala prob. shot you, plain and simple.
oh, and my pic. was to illustrate the point that we all "SEE" different things on our FE's, and how your idea of a ram model would be a disaster. HTC has ram's modeled the best possible way w/ the way the internet is setup.
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Originally posted by Larry
Thats two different things hes takeing off not shooting at you. And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.
Larry, you can continue your exercises in Preconceptual Science all you want but it will not changes the facts of the situation.
If you do not see "you have collided" in your text buffer then any damage you are taking is due to being shot NOT from someone colliding with you.
Just to make it simpler, the only time damage is incurred due to a collision is when the message "you have collided" appears in the text buffer.
Just because you don't see tracers or muzzle flashes does not mean he's not shooting at you. You probably got the updates to your FE for the muzzle flashes at the same time you got the "blow up" message.
I have had many instances of me colliding with someone else, them colliding with me and both of us colliding with each other, not once was there any confusion as to why I took damage or why he did/did not take damage. (at least on my part)
This discussion is pointless because some of you have made up your minds and no amount of explanation or logic by anyone is going to change it. IMO HT wasted his valuable time putting those messages in the text buffer because with some people it has only created more confusion than it's stopped. What does he need to do, put a message in the text buffer "you were killed by weapons fire"?
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Originally posted by Larry
Jones what your saying makes no since at all. I have a film of me coming about 5-10ft away from some bombers and I die. I didnt see a ram on my computer so why did I die? What HTC means by "seeing" the ram means if I come up behind you and ram you as long as your not looking back I get the damage. And in the HO/ram whoever shoots last before the ram gets the damage.
Very simple explanation. HE SHOT YOU!
And to clarify another of your misconceptions, when HT uses the term SEEING he is not talking about what your eyes see. He is talking about what the Front End program running on our PC SEES. Where your head position or view is, is irrelevant.
One more time, if you don't see "you have collided" in your text buffer any damage you take is NOT caused by a collision.
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So, would lthis also explain when I am flying and a con behind me is 1K on my screen but can actually be D600 on his screen?
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Larry: You can talk about collisions all you wish. But I strongly suggest you address HTC ,ME and other players in a respectfull maner.
HiTech
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Originally posted by BALSUR
So, would lthis also explain when I am flying and a con behind me is 1K on my screen but can actually be D600 on his screen?
Yes, it is the same reason.
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Deleted
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Originally posted by Larry
And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.
An enemy aircraft flys up your six and hes not going to shoot? He, perchance just wanted to see your smiling face in the tailgun position? What other reason would he have to chase a bomber?
The whole thing boils down to what your COMPUTER sees vs. what his COMPUTER sees. That computer could be half a world away or with connection through the internet that is poor. Your computer is looking at a 360 degree environment so you don't have to "see" a collision with your eyes. Your COMPUTER and the other guys COMPUTER are NOT synced together. Everybody sees an approxmation of the 3d environment that is updated at intervals. Not real time. You saw him collide between updates. On his computer he pulled over you. The reason he shot you is he could shoot better than you. You missed. He didn't. And he probably had his tracers turned off. I do.
Of course you got this well versed understanding of the eccentricities of the internet and everybody else is wrong. What else could it be?
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Deleted? Wow I guess you dont want to answer why.
Lye-El tell me something since theres so much lag that a guy can ram my plane from behind and fly away can get a kill on the same laggy connection/sever?
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TK,
I am not sure, but it seems to me that you are having difficulty with the basic concept of two realities.
When that La-7 flew up your bomber's six and "rammed" it you are interpeting the event from your perspective, i.e. he was the active participant in the ramming. In actuality you failed to avoid a collision with him. The onerous cannot be on him to avoid the collision when he had no way of knowing about it or realistically predicting it. That takes some getting used to, but from the program's point of view that is how it works.
It is completely irrelevant who's nose hits who. All that matters is if your computer detects a collision on your FE and if his computer detects a collision on his FE.
On his FE he may have broken off before colliding, or shot your bomber out of the way, so to his computer, and by extension, him, there was no collision. If he had collided with the version of your bomber on his FE you would have seen him just break up for no apparent reason on yours somewhere behind you.
One thing that people have said that is wrong, the number of players has nothing to do with it. IL-2 may have both aircraft go down in a collision, but if so it will suffer from people being able to ram and kill with the ramee never knowing that there was an immenient collision. The difference is that IL-2 is not a persistant environment so it doesn't matter that much. Lag is primarily caused by the time it takes data to move over the internet, which is about 60% to 80% the speed of light.