Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Midnight on December 20, 2005, 08:17:35 PM
-
I am so very tired of dealing with "Customer Service Representatives" and "Technical Support Agents" that are based in India. It seems whenever you deal with them on the telephone, you can barely hear them speaking and are lucky to be able to understand half of what they say, or to have them understand half of what you say.
Orbitz.Com - I spent over 30 minutes on the phone with someone who's name I did not understand and could not pronounce anyway, so I could change a date on a return airline ticket. Finally, after they understood what I was trying to do, they put me on hold for another 5 or so minutes. After that, the person got back on the line with me only to tell me that thay were transferring me to another department. - Fortunately, the other department was US based. Unfortunately, I had to start from the beginning on all the details because the information I supplied to the Indian person did not get transferred with the call. Anyway I told the US person what I wanted to do, and within 10 minutes, I was re-scheduled and ready to go.
Why did I have to waste the first 35 minutes on the phone with the Indian?
Dell - I spent at least 20 minutes on the phone explaining a technical problem with a computer at work. After going though all the normal "what version, reboot, un-install, re-install, unplug and wait 30 seconds, etc." The India-based person (again I did not understand the name) told me that they needed to transfer me to the "next level" of support. Well, fortunately the next level was a US based person, and within 15 minutes I made two corrections to the registry of the computer and everything was fixed.
Why did I have to waste the first 20 minutes on the phone with the Indian?
LinkSys - Another story about the same as the two above. More wasted time talking with someone who I didn't understand and they didn't understand me. When finally connect to a US based tech support person, problem solved shortly.
I don't know if it's possible, I would like to call on everyone in the US to boycott any company that has outsourced customer service and technical support to India or other countries where English is not the 1st language. It's foolish for us (the American public) to be forced to waste so much of OUR time so some fat-cat major share-holder can save a few bucks for lining his own pocket with! :furious
-
:rofl :rofl :rofl
-
I'm a PM for outsourcing work to India for my company. Indians out perform American workers in tedious software testing by far. Some of the hardest working people I've ever been associated with. I'm about to spend millions of our money on yet another big project that will go overseas.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'm a PM for outsourcing work to India for my company. Indians out perform American workers in tedious software testing by far. Some of the hardest working people I've ever been associated with. I'm about to spend millions of our money on yet another big project that will go overseas.
Well do us all a favor and just send us the self-help guide instead of letting someone in India read it to us and deceptively labeling it "customer service" or "product support." If you take away deception, businesses have to perform better. Product support is not an Indian reading you the owners manual.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'm a PM for outsourcing work to India for my company. Indians out perform American workers in tedious software testing by far. Some of the hardest working people I've ever been associated with. I'm about to spend millions of our money on yet another big project that will go overseas.
Rip, fine if you think so, but I'm talking about the so-called "technical support" and "customer service" reps that the general population has to deal with. I don't really care what some closed room of software testers are doing, because I don't have to talk to them.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
I am so very tired of dealing with "Customer Service Representatives" and "Technical Support Agents" that are based in India. It seems whenever you deal with them on the telephone, you can barely hear them speaking and are lucky to be able to understand half of what they say, or to have them understand half of what you say.
Orbitz.Com - I spent over 30 minutes on the phone with someone who's name I did not understand and could not pronounce anyway, so I could change a date on a return airline ticket. Finally, after they understood what I was trying to do, they put me on hold for another 5 or so minutes. After that, the person got back on the line with me only to tell me that thay were transferring me to another department. - Fortunately, the other department was US based. Unfortunately, I had to start from the beginning on all the details because the information I supplied to the Indian person did not get transferred with the call. Anyway I told the US person what I wanted to do, and within 10 minutes, I was re-scheduled and ready to go.
Why did I have to waste the first 35 minutes on the phone with the Indian?
Dell - I spent at least 20 minutes on the phone explaining a technical problem with a computer at work. After going though all the normal "what version, reboot, un-install, re-install, unplug and wait 30 seconds, etc." The India-based person (again I did not understand the name) told me that they needed to transfer me to the "next level" of support. Well, fortunately the next level was a US based person, and within 15 minutes I made two corrections to the registry of the computer and everything was fixed.
Why did I have to waste the first 20 minutes on the phone with the Indian?
LinkSys - Another story about the same as the two above. More wasted time talking with someone who I didn't understand and they didn't understand me. When finally connect to a US based tech support person, problem solved shortly.
I don't know if it's possible, I would like to call on everyone in the US to boycott any company that has outsourced customer service and technical support to India or other countries where English is not the 1st language. It's foolish for us (the American public) to be forced to waste so much of OUR time so some fat-cat major share-holder can save a few bucks for lining his own pocket with! :furious
You will have to boycott FAR more then just that.
As rip said, if done right, they can do the job well.
If done wrong they are a big BIG mistake for your company.
Dells is a mistake, they suck. I won't buy another Dell product. (on top of their current desktops being junk)
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Rip, fine if you think so, but I'm talking about the so-called "technical support" and "customer service" reps that the general population has to deal with. I don't really care what some closed room of software testers are doing, because I don't have to talk to them.
Good point. I don't believe I've ever had to deal with customer service when troubleshooting something, or been just damn lucky with our two Dell laptops.
If you have trouble understanding them, just ask them to repeat it slow. They will be more than happy to without taking offense. Its tough at first, but after speaking with them, you'll understand them perfectly well. Its that thick british accent combined with their native accent that screws it all up. If they'd learned English in America, they'd learn to properly pronounce words that aren't butchered with accent.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Good point. I don't believe I've ever had to deal with customer service when troubleshooting something, or been just damn lucky with our two Dell laptops.
If you have trouble understanding them, just ask them to repeat it slow. They will be more than happy to without taking offense. Its tough at first, but after speaking with them, you'll understand them perfectly well. Its that thick british accent combined with their native accent that screws it all up. If they'd learned English in America, they'd learn to properly pronounce words that aren't butchered with accent.
The laptops still seem to be OK, I would even consider buying one if the price is right ( I get a discount) but not a desktop from them.
-
Of all outsourced tech support agents/customer reps, i think the tech support/customer reps based in the Philippines are easier to understand.
-
My company (one of the largest banks in the US) is also starting to heavily offshore customer service. I have to admit, I'm hip deep in it. We are currently negociating with one of the largest customer service agent providers in the US who will service our accounts from both India and Philippines. The savings are simply too huge to ignore. $12-15k per rep per year. For the initial 2000 reps, that is $24-30M a year. And that is to get a rep who has a college degree compared to a high school degree or AA here in the States.
Alot of the issues that Dell has is due to poor initial cultural training of the reps (called CCT). While our reps are not perfect, their CCT is longer and more intensive so the accent is not too bad. In fact, the customer satisfaction scores for our India site is only about 1% lower than our US based call centers.
What Rip says about making them slow down is right. And making them slow down has a double wammy effect. Call center performance metrics include Average Handle Time (AHT). The higher that number, the more reps are required on the floor to service the call volume, which means the cost per call goes up. The higher the cost per call in India, the less attractive offshoring is to the company.
But many companies are already feeling backlash. In preparation, we are also looking at "near shoring" in Canada. And there is some interest in New Zealand. Although the cost savings will not be nearly as much.
Not that it matters to the English speakers here...but call centers being set up in Mexico and Philipines will be getting Spanish calls.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
The laptops still seem to be OK, I would even consider buying one if the price is right ( I get a discount) but not a desktop from them.
We use Dell laptops at work. Most of them are now condemed. Pcs of shxt.
I am waiting for the replacement that has been ordered, as is virtually everyone in my department.
-
Dago
They recent ones? I have not delt with one newer then say 6 months.
When I needed a new one I didnt go with them bacause they do not use AMD 64 chips.
I got tired of Intell based ones burning my legs.
-
I've had to deal with tech support with SBC on my dsl line. Their tech support is in India. They may out work or what ever you say, but dealing with them in India is very frustrating. Their phone lines suck. Hard to hear them. One time there was static on the line. Another I had to keep ask them to repeat themselfs because I could not hear what they were saying. Kept telling her to speak up. Ether she couldn't hear my question or she couldn't. And I can understand their english. So don't go there. I ended up having to deal with SBC's maintance shop. I talked with them, they were up in Indannpolic (spelling). He said that when their contract is up, tech support is coming back to the States. And he said that Dell is also pulling their's back.
So in the end, sending their work to India wasn't good business for them.
-
The coolest thing in the world will be when middle management and above also is outsourced to India, Bulgaria and China.
Then, my gentlemen, you shall hear the screams.
And it'll happen. The company I work for is small - we're only three here in DK. The boss, me (software developer) and a graphics girl. We got 5 people in Bulgaria, good software developers, and the cost is basically the same all things included as my salary.
The way things are going and the tasks I've been put on strongly suggest I am making myself redundant. While I can compete on a professional level and win over these guys and girls, I'm ten times more expensive. In the majority of situations, immediacy and a minor competitive edge of one employee doesn't warrant a ten time cost increase.
It's a capitalist economy and it'll be more wide spread until the supply and demand situation is more evenly spread out. The fact that companies feel bold enough to outsource direct customer contact speaks volumes.
You middle managers and people in "management" or responisble for project management are gonna get sooo hosed. I'll feel sorry for ya but yer just gonna have to walk the same walk I'm walking, delicately balancing things, seeking training in fields less prone to outsourcing and working more hours for less money.
It's ain't fun, but it's gonna happen. And don't for a sec think there isn't an Indian guy who's as bright, dedicated as yourself, willing to work for a tenth of what yer earning.
-
If you would not break things then you would not have to call India for tech support. :aok
But I do agree that it is a problem and we all have the same story of talking to someone that we can not understand, you have to think that the management of these corporations know this to, so why do they outsource? Economics, you get a person in India that works of peanuts compared to an American worker who cares if you can understand him, he can stay on the phone longer then the American and for less money. So what are we gonna do about it. I tell you what to do, write to your states Representative's and let them know how you feel about outsourcing. This could be part of a welfare to work program here in the states.
-
Most companies make noise about customer service.
None want to pay for it.
Tech support is not cheap, even to india.
It is a very easy place to cut costs to make your investors happy with you.
Hell your stock will jump up a few points the second you tell them you are laying off 99% of your customer survice and Support people and sending it to india.
They care about the bottom line, support and customer survice do not generate cash, they are always the first targets to increase margins.
It is a big problem in Public corperations, when the VP has to answer to the board, and the board only cares about the bottom line RIGHT NOW THIS QAURTER.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its tough at first, but after speaking with them, you'll understand them perfectly well.
is it really too much to ask for an American doing business with an American company, while using a product bought in America, for use in America to be able to get a hold of someone in tech support who can speak fluently with an American?
here's a concept, let the company adapt to their customer base instead of having your customer bang their head against the wall until he finally learns to communicate with your tech support.
**this isn't a slam on the tech support employees themselves. they speak way clearer English than I could ever likely reach in their language. however I'm not trying to make my living doing business on the phone with them in their language**
BTW- Rip, where you gonna work when they figure out they could just have one of those efficient Indians do the outsourcing that you are doing?
-
Customer support is a crappy job even in the best of circumstances.
This isn't a two-sided coin issue - it's multi-sided. Boycotting the American companies will only put more Americans out of work and financially strain the company, and the stockholders and investors, and doesn't solve the problem... if you accept that there is a problem in the first place.
Where do you think most of the parts for computers and electrical devices come from? It's rare to find them made in the US anymore. The inevitable push of technology and associated support downward from advanced econonies to lesser advanced economies cannot be changed. It's something you have to accept and learn to live with.
For what it's worth, non-English speaking countries are just as frustrated with the lack of support in their language for US products. Everything works both ways.
It's hard to evangelize that free trade and open economies are the path developing countries should take, then in the next breath, support protectionism.
The long-term reality is that the freerer markets become, the more democratic their governments become. And the more intertwined economies become, the greater the chance that differences will be softened due to those mutual economic ties.
-
How to deal with Orbiz (Maddox site... NWS text) (http://www.thehowdydoodyuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=orbitz_blows)
-
Midnight, it's the same here in the UK. We are plagued by call centres. I often feel as if I'm talking to a school leaver who's sitting in front of a computer screen with a series of Q/A on a flowchart - which probably isn't so far from the truth. "have-you-checked-the-fuse-in-the-plug?" - might as well be talking to a freaking robot. :mad: I had an Indian answer my call the other day - I had called the bank to make a general inquiry about one of their services - nothing to do with my accounts, but the guy insisted on knowing letters 2 and 4 of my account codeword, plus he had a very thick accent which I couldn't understand. I did what I always do in this situation, and it has always worked so far: Hang up, redial, get through to someone else. This time, the call got routed to someone I could understand and who didn't need codeword ID.
By the way, English is one of the official languages of India, but I think it's the second language, the first being Hindi.
-
most tech support calls are made by complete idiots who are incapable of reading clear directions and need another complete idiot to read a script for them to understand.
You want to live in a global economy fine, but those living in "developing" part of the world, who breath air choked with burning wood, cowdung and industrial waste, drink contaminated water, have crappy roads, and abject poverty, will outcompete your industrialized ass.
Of course, computer manufacturers bring many tech problems on themselves. Check out this review (http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=OTI0) of a Dell "Gaming PC" that's so loaded with channel partnership bloatware that it won't run the most popular games people play.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Good point. I don't believe I've ever had to deal with customer service when troubleshooting something, or been just damn lucky with our two Dell laptops.
If you have trouble understanding them, just ask them to repeat it slow. They will be more than happy to without taking offense. Its tough at first, but after speaking with them, you'll understand them perfectly well. Its that thick british accent combined with their native accent that screws it all up. If they'd learned English in America, they'd learn to properly pronounce words that aren't butchered with accent.
Sorry I disagree here...........
Tried it and still didn't work. The person spoke slower by seperating the words more but still said the actual words at the same speed and was still not understandable..... geeezzzz!!!!!!:furious
Complained to company via email and snailmail.
Nope don't want or need this. Had one even question me wanting more and more information including passwords. I objected and informed him he was becoming to interested in my personal business. He tired to tell me he was only trying to protect me. Ask to speak with his supervisor and he real quick started jabberin then I told him I wanted someone else to do this with and that 1st I wanted his supervisor. Sucker hung up on me! :furious
Had to start all over again.
NO THANK YOU!
Again Complained to company via email and snailmail and since then only get what sounds like Americans from Texas :D
MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!
-
A point that several of you have highlighted in your reposnses.
"Ask them to talk slower" or "Ask them to repeat what they said" or "Hang up and call back to talk to someone else"
All of that is part of the problem. Why waste OUR time to deal with them? My time is worth $$ too, especially when I am at work. It shouldn't take almost an hour to find a solution for a basic problem.
---------
Just remember, the more outsourcing that is done, the less jobs there will be in the US that pay decent wages. Then less people in the US to buy the products, so the execs will cut more expenses and send more labor overseas...
It seems that eventually, the US will be a land full of service workers because there will be no manufacturing and no local telephone-based service. Before you know it, we'll be the third world country.
-
There's some subliminal tricks they use in outsourced customer service too. Language lessons every day, and fake american names. The "Steve" that answers... yeah, his name is most definately not "Steve'".
I don't particularly care about any of this. If I have to call support, the problem is not simple. I don't want to talk to a script or knowledge base. I need somebody on the phone not afraid to put the script down and apply a bit of logic to the problem solving. It's a problem universal to all call centers for the most part; however, it's alot more prevelant in outsourced centers because of the training regime.
I've been outsourced, but the practice really isn't a bad one. It's simply the way things will be until the standard of living raises the outsourcing costs beyond viability. It's silly to even point fingers about it. We built the tool (the intardnet) that laid the blueprint for global communication, and this is the result of it. We can either make ourselves more valuable, or we can slide backwards into parity with the rest of the world that's quickly catching up. Good reading on the subject is The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century by Thomas L. Friedman
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Just remember, the more outsourcing that is done, the less jobs there will be in the US that pay decent wages. Then less people in the US to buy the products, so the execs will cut more expenses and send more labor overseas...
It seems that eventually, the US will be a land full of service workers because there will be no manufacturing and no local telephone-based service. Before you know it, we'll be the third world country.
FYI, I've heard that customer service pays less than a laborer in construction.
Also, I remember hearing the same scare tactics when the Steel industry, car industry and television/electronics industry moved overseas...people found other jobs. As in my specific case, we didn't want to hire a load of IT folks only to lay them off in two years when the 787 rolls out. India is relieving us of our tasks that we do not like to do, or is too burdensome with our current workload.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
It is a big problem in Public corperations, when the VP has to answer to the board, and the board only cares about the bottom line RIGHT NOW THIS QAURTER.
As an investment person, I don't view this as a big problem. It is the Board's responsibility to shareholders to worry about the bottom line, increase earnings and roe.
-
Americans just have to be happy making less and living on dung heaps in cardboard boxes .. then support can be moved back into the states...
Rip
you a developer? how do you know how hard they are working if you do not know what exactly they are doing? How clean is their code? did they tell you they are working very very hard?
the problem is the american worker has priced himself out of a job but the question is what is the price??
-
Originally posted by BigGun
As an investment person, I don't view this as a big problem. It is the Board's responsibility to shareholders to worry about the bottom line, increase earnings and roe.
Gee who would have thought.
Try working at one of the companies and see how it effects the product. The see how that effects profit.
-
(moves rip up on the list of hypocrite americans that work for, advocate or offer up BS excuses for selling the american worker out for cheap overseas job markets)
Take a look at the Man in the Mirror, Rip. Yer just sellout whoring himself to yet another part of the corporate based anti-american disease that's killing this country.
Merry Christmas, ya sellout scab.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
Americans just have to be happy making less and living on dung heaps in cardboard boxes .. then support can be moved back into the states...
Rip
you a developer? how do you know how hard they are working if you do not know what exactly they are doing? How clean is their code? did they tell you they are working very very hard?
the problem is the american worker has priced himself out of a job but the question is what is the price??
Eagler, can't say too much about the specifics of code in my job, but I analyze the results of testing done overseas. Its 3rd party code, off-the-shelf software that we use. They do some specific testing for us. They are always on schedule, and within budget when they complete their tasks. I could only wish our American counterparts were as thorough, but we've (America) have become fat and lazy. Hang's reply is a perfect example of this. Folks who are displaced from a low paying job that is shipped overseas usually finds better opportunities out there. FWIW, no one has been released from their job for the offloading that we do. We've even hired 6 additional college grads within the last year, in addition to offloading our work, and yet we still can't keep up. The younger college grads work as hard as their indian counterparts. The "old timers" that have Hang's attitude are the ones that don't produce. My job is to make sure everything gets done so I have to analyze the results on a weekly basis, both offshore and within our org.
I might add that alot of the old timers around here had Hang's opinion at first. Now they realize what an asset we have, and can't imagine life without our offshore team.
-
Kind of reminds me of a GM engineer that I know who piously exclaimed back in the 90's that the production guys made way too much and that moving production overseas is a good thing.
Three years ago, five years before he could retire, he was laid off and brought back as a contractor at 60% of what he was making.
A month ago he told me that when the current project is done in march 06 that the department will be closed and ALL of the new work is going to India where a top notch engineer can be had for 26k, he has begun to rethink his position.
shamus
-
Outsourcing is just an efficient use of labor, and will continue to be a fact in the more global economy that has developed. It is just an efficient use of resources. Why should a company pay $X to have something produced and delivered if they could have it produced & delivered for $X/2 by simply moving operations. It forces competition, efficiency & is the basis of capitalism. In long run, economy & consumers are much better off.
If you are in work that is in threat of being replaced & outsourced, then you better recognize the situation, develop new skills & get more education. Either that or you can sit back and whine about how unfair the big cruel world is.
-
Originally posted by indy007
There's some subliminal tricks they use in outsourced customer service too. Language lessons every day, and fake american names. The "Steve" that answers... yeah, his name is most definately not "Steve'".
This is what I saw when I caught an episode of "48 Hours" or "60 Minutes" a while ago. They were doing a piece on outsourcing and visited a call center in India. All the reps in the tech center were of course young adult Indians, and stated that they each had their own sets of American names to use when they answered calls. They also work on sounding more American when they speak, going as far as practicing regional accents. Of course this was just one call center and not all of them go that far, but the concept is quite an eye-opener.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Outsourcing is just an efficient use of labor, and will continue to be a fact in the more global economy that has developed. It is just an efficient use of resources. Why should a company pay $X to have something produced and delivered if they could have it produced & delivered for $X/2 by simply moving operations. It forces competition, efficiency & is the basis of capitalism. In long run, economy & consumers are much better off.
If you are in work that is in threat of being replaced & outsourced, then you better recognize the situation, develop new skills & get more education. Either that or you can sit back and whine about how unfair the big cruel world is.
Exactly. If my company didn't find ways to make better use of labor, then 220,000 would be out of work. Competition uses tax payers money to sustain their business, as well as make good use of outsourcing, we don't have such a luxury.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Outsourcing is just an efficient use of labor, and will continue to be a fact in the more global economy that has developed. It is just an efficient use of resources. Why should a company pay $X to have something produced and delivered if they could have it produced & delivered for $X/2 by simply moving operations. It forces competition, efficiency & is the basis of capitalism. In long run, economy & consumers are much better off.
If you are in work that is in threat of being replaced & outsourced, then you better recognize the situation, develop new skills & get more education. Either that or you can sit back and whine about how unfair the big cruel world is.
Yup, this is just about a direct quote of what he said in the 90's :)
shamus
-
Originally posted by Shamus
Yup, this is just about a direct quote of what he said in the 90's :)
shamus
So do you think that his experience is a blanket statement of what will happen to all business that uses outsourcing? After all, the Big 3 have been in the proverbial toilet for quite some time due to mismanagement, ignorance of the competition overseas, until it was too late. We were following that same path until upper management pulled its head out, this year will be the first in a few that we've beat Airbus in orders placed due to lean and efficient practices....
FWIW, Boeing added 7,000 more american workers to the payroll in this last year, and will add another 6,000 in 2006. Probably more since we may end up going to a stretch version of the 787.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
So do you think that his experience is a blanket statement of what will happen to all business that uses outsourcing? After all, the Big 3 have been in the proverbial toilet for quite some time due to mismanagement, ignorance of the competition overseas, until it was too late.
Of course not, I do however feel that it will happen to far more of you that you think though.
shamus
-
Originally posted by Shamus
Yup, this is just about a direct quote of what he said in the 90's :)
shamus
I said this in the 90s? Don't recall that, but I have been a long time believer in capitalism, free markets and efficiency.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
I said this in the 90s? Don't recall that, but I have been a long time believer in capitalism, free markets and efficiency.
No I was refering to the engineer in my example.
shamus
-
Originally posted by Shamus
Of course not, I do however feel that it will happen to far more of you that you think though.
shamus
I have no doubt that more jobs will be lost. I also have no doubt many thousands more will be saved since a company will become more competitive in a global market. One mistake I've seen time after time again is complacency in ones job. Never stop learning, always look for something better, never "expect" to have a job, complete your work like someone else wants your job. That's the key to survival today in the job market. Most importantly, save money, and never put yourself in a position where you *need* a company pension or Social security.
-
Originally posted by indy007
There's some subliminal tricks they use in outsourced customer service too. Language lessons every day, and fake american names. The "Steve" that answers... yeah, his name is most definately not "Steve'".
This seems to be the latest tactic and is a running joke at our office. Imagine a thick heavy Indian accent that answers the phone with "Hello, my name is Bob."
We have to send a lot of defective products back and it takes twice a long when you have to have them repeat every other sentence. Our time is valuable and it gets old and irritating.
Outsourcing tech support to India might be good for the bottom line this quarter, but I wonder how long it will take these companies to realize they are loosing customers who are fed up with this nonsense. As a consumer if I'm not happy with the service I get from a company, guess what, the next product I buy will be from a different company.
-
I guess I look at the situation from an investment perspective, since it is what I do. I am repsonsible for earning a return on a significant amount of money.
As an investor, we buy a lot of stock in various companies. In doing so, we have an ownership stake in the company. The management & board of directors have an obligation to the owners of the company, not an obligation to the employees. Boeing is good example. If they fail to maintain costs and take advantage of cheaper labor alternatives, they are failing me as an owner of the company. If Boeing can get someone to do software testing more effieciently at a lower costs, they have every obligation to do so. They are forced to remain competitive, be efficient, adapt to ever changing market conditions & increase the bottom line. If they don't, investors will sell the stock & they run the danger of becoming non existent. It is just a fact of competition.
It is also possible to outsource certain jobs, while increasing the total job market. It is just redistributing labor capital to efficient areas. Long gone are the days when you could just go to work for a company & expect to work there for many years.
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Outsourcing tech support to India might be good for the bottom line this quarter, but I wonder how long it will take these companies to realize they are loosing customers who are fed up with this nonsense. As a consumer if I'm not happy with the service I get from a company, guess what, the next product I buy will be from a different company.
If they are smart, they will pay attention to this & adapt as the market changes.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
I guess I look at the situation from an investment perspective, since it is what I do. I am repsonsible for earning a return on a significant amount of money.
As an investor, we buy a lot of stock in various companies. In doing so, we have an ownership stake in the company. The management & board of directors have an obligation to the owners of the company, not an obligation to the employees. Boeing is good example. If they fail to maintain costs and take advantage of cheaper labor alternatives, they are failing me as an owner of the company. If Boeing can get someone to do software testing more effieciently at a lower costs, they have every obligation to do so. They are forced to remain competitive, be efficient, adapt to ever changing market conditions & increase the bottom line. If they don't, investors will sell the stock & they run the danger of becoming non existent. It is just a fact of competition.
It is also possible to outsource certain jobs, while increasing the total job market. It is just redistributing labor capital to efficient areas. Long gone are the days when you could just go to work for a company & expect to work there for many years.
Good post and its evident that you know today's global market strategies very well.:aok
-
Corporate America is selling out American Jobs.
They are literally at war with American Labor.
Guess who pays for this?
Bottom line is NOT profits. it's national survival. Wake up, smell the curry. We're in deep **** and corporate america is digging us in even deeper with BS 'bottom line' platitudes and 'outsourcing'.
Check Northwest Airlines as an example of this blatently criminal corporate behavior. Takes federal dollars. orders airbuses with it. dumps american workforce. executives bail with multi-million dollar salries and parachutes. company declares bankruptcy. Sickening.
Yer a SELLOUT, Rip. A plastic phoney-baloney american, spewing platitudes and BS.. tossing work overseas when we have a massive trade deficit is un-american. Look around you.. think we can keep up selling our workforce short? How long before the economy implodes?
Look at the legacy yer leaving yer kids. look in the mirror. yer a sellout. plain and simple.
enjoy yer stuffed christmas goose, Rip.
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
Corporate America is selling out American Jobs.
They are literally at war with American Labor.
Guess who pays for this?
Bottom line is NOT profits. it's national survival. Wake up, smell the curry. We're in deep **** and corporate america is digging us in even deeper with BS 'bottom line' platitudes and 'outsourcing'.
Check Northwest Airlines as an example of this blatently criminal corporate behavior. Takes federal dollars. orders airbuses with it. dumps american workforce. executives bail with multi-million dollar salries and parachutes. company declares bankruptcy. Sickening.
Yer a SELLOUT, Rip. A plastic phoney-baloney american, spewing platitudes and BS.. tossing work overseas when we have a massive trade deficit is un-american. Look around you.. think we can keep up selling our workforce short? How long before the economy implodes?
Look at the legacy yer leaving yer kids. look in the mirror. yer a sellout. plain and simple.
enjoy yer stuffed christmas goose, Rip.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Originally posted by BigGun
The management & board of directors have an obligation to the owners of the company, not an obligation to the employees.
Long gone are the days when you could just go to work for a company & expect to work there for many years.
I understand that this is now the reality that we in the US and western countries now live with. But I don't see this as a good thing.
The big companies do not give a hoot about their employees or their families anymore. Oh most will deny this but it's obvious to all. As a result, the employees no longer have any pride in what they produce and don't feel like they are contributing to their community or country. We're all working for the investors who are already rich and are getting richer.
-
then again...
we are good at cutting our own throats (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051221/ap_on_re_us/nyc_transit_strike;_ylt=AggrmywVpbkqkD0YopwvT0ZvzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--)
i read the average salary is over $49,000 in NY
a bus driver now makes over $54k and the ticket taker over 51k.... not to mention they want full bennies if/when they retire at 55 .. LOL
if they could outsource that mess, you bet ur arse the city would do it in a heart beat
-
Originally posted by BigGun
I guess I look at the situation from an investment perspective, since it is what I do. I am repsonsible for earning a return on a significant amount of money.
As an investor, we buy a lot of stock in various companies. In doing so, we have an ownership stake in the company. The management & board of directors have an obligation to the owners of the company, not an obligation to the employees. Boeing is good example. If they fail to maintain costs and take advantage of cheaper labor alternatives, they are failing me as an owner of the company. If Boeing can get someone to do software testing more effieciently at a lower costs, they have every obligation to do so. They are forced to remain competitive, be efficient, adapt to ever changing market conditions & increase the bottom line. If they don't, investors will sell the stock & they run the danger of becoming non existent. It is just a fact of competition.
It is also possible to outsource certain jobs, while increasing the total job market. It is just redistributing labor capital to efficient areas. Long gone are the days when you could just go to work for a company & expect to work there for many years.
Eventually if enough jobs are moved over seas because is good for the bottom line, you will not have customers able to pay for your product because they will be out of work. (maybe not things may just turn around when the countries that now have all the customer service people figure it out and start charging more)
Of course none of the products are any cheaper, just the money you and your investor buddies get is more.
In the end the country and everyone in it will pay the price.
What guys like you fail see if how cost cutting in customer service areas can cause the product to not sell as well.
It is far more important now then ever because through the internet, one guy can run around and REALLY hurt you products rep, if he is pissed he had to talk to an Indian guy reading a script.
All the BS about staying competitive is just that, customers do not get anything but a bad deal out of this, prices do not change, and investors just get a few pennies more.
Competitive greed mongering is more like it.
What happened to the days when putting out a good product was as important to the company as the bottom line?
People like you came along.
-
You got some good points. However, outsourcing is happening and it's happening for a reason.
We're punished for our own success. It has driven up labour cost and threatens to make any field that offers manufactured goods (be it physical goods, analysis, software development) uncompetitive compared to what we call "third world countries".
You need an edge on the competition. It can be price, quality, customer care, what have you. But you need that edge or your company is going to fail.
And you're not hiring people out of your good nature. You hire people because you have something that needs to be done and they offer their services.
Now, depending on what you prioritize (low prices, good customer service etc), you may benefit from outsourcing. Of course, it's total **** for some guy who really wants to work, has done nothing wrong, live in an expensive country and therefore needs a much higher salary than an Indian just to survive.
For now, it's been that salt-of-the-earth workers that have been hardest hit - seamstresses, automobile workers, programmers. I have however seen a growing trend towards outsourcing of middle management and even higher. So, let's take Ripsnort - he's in a good position right now, managing offshore and internal dudes and dudettes. His bosses have made cost-benefit analysis and feel that his immediacy to the situation, overview and skill warrants his 10 times as high salary.
For now. Same guys who joke with 'im and think he's an asset to the company will dump him the second the cost-benefit analysis hits red and there's an alternative.
Don't sit too comfortably in your chairs gentlemen. I'd advice ya not to get too many mortgages on yer houses or loans for cars and guns.
When I've made myself expendable to my company, I see no reason why my boss shouldn't fire me and hire the Bulgarian I've trained. However, I have few loans. No house, no car. Very modest life, except the skydiving bit. If the sh|t hits the fan, I can handle it. Heh, I can even make a living as a professional packer or tandem master while I get the training in a field that is resistant to outsourcing (service industry is good there).
Once the great world economy has levelled off (not in our lifetimes), outsourcing will be a relic of the past.
Bottom line; if ya have little to lose, you'll probably manage.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Eventually if enough jobs are moved over seas because is good for the bottom line, you will not have customers able to pay for your product because they will be out of work. (maybe not things may just turn around when the countries that now have all the customer service people figure it out and start charging more)
Of course none of the products are any cheaper, just the money you and your investor buddies get is more.
In the end the country and everyone in it will pay the price.
What guys like you fail see if how cost cutting in customer service areas can cause the product to not sell as well.
It is far more important now then ever because through the internet, one guy can run around and REALLY hurt you products rep, if he is pissed he had to talk to an Indian guy reading a script.
All the BS about staying competitive is just that, customers do not get anything but a bad deal out of this, prices do not change, and investors just get a few pennies more.
Competitive greed mongering is more like it.
What happened to the days when putting out a good product was as important to the company as the bottom line?
People like you came along.
People like me came along? You must be kidding or don't have a clue about how global capital markets function. I have a job where I am charge with earning returns for given level of risk. I take the fiduciary duty very seriously. Bottom line, focus is on investing in good companies which increase chance of getting high returns. If i don't do my job, there will be someone then that comes in to do it.
Corporations are not naive to just focus on bottom line. They also know the have to produce a product/service which is in demand, either that or they suffer the consequence. Great thing about capitalism & competition is that is has a natural way to weed out the inefficient. Companys that learn to adapt to changing global markets do well, others that can't run risk of becoming extinct. So many examples to look at. Take US Car manufacturers. How long can they continue to lose billions of $$ per quarter. If they can't adapt, they will become extinct and all those people working for them. There number one problem is labor unions, being force to pay high wages which make products non-competitive. In the long run, that can not persist.
Also, there is all this talk about jobs going over seas. While this may be the case, there has been significant net job growth in the US over past couple years. And I would also argue consumers benefit significantly from global trade & competition.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
People like me came along? You must be kidding or don't have a clue about how global capital markets function. I have a job where I am charge with earning returns for given level of risk. I take the fiduciary duty very seriously. Bottom line, focus is on investing in good companies which increase chance of getting high returns. If i don't do my job, there will be someone then that comes in to do it.
Corporations are not naive to just focus on bottom line. They also know the have to produce a product/service which is in demand, either that or they suffer the consequence. Great thing about capitalism & competition is that is has a natural way to weed out the inefficient. Companys that learn to adapt to changing global markets do well, others that can't run risk of becoming extinct. So many examples to look at. Take US Car manufacturers. How long can they continue to lose billions of $$ per quarter. If they can't adapt, they will become extinct and all those people working for them. There number one problem is labor unions, being force to pay high wages which make products non-competitive. In the long run, that can not persist.
Also, there is all this talk about jobs going over seas. While this may be the case, there has been significant net job growth in the US over past couple years. And I would also argue consumers benefit significantly from global trade & competition.
That was a cheap shot on my part, and I am sure you take your job seriously.
Corporations are not naive to just focus on bottom line.
This is where I think you are wrong, or maybe you just deal with the corps smart enough to see the big picture.
MANY corperations do not focus on anything but the bottom line, and in some cases when the claim they do care about more, they are not willing to spend another dime on fixing problems withen the company.
Unless you have worked in these companies, looking from an outside viewpoint, you may not catch it. They will go very far to hide problems from Investors.
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
Check Northwest Airlines as an example of this blatently criminal corporate behavior. Takes federal dollars. orders airbuses with it. dumps american workforce. executives bail with multi-million dollar salries and parachutes. company declares bankruptcy. Sickening.
The salaries are ridiculous, that's very true... but aren't half of the components in airbusses outsourced from europe to american companies? :) Even if they had ordered Boeings, a good chunk of the parts come from overseas. My main gripe about that would be using federal dollars for any of it.
I have a question that simplifies alot of the mindset behind it though... well, it does for me at least... Who's responsibility is it to maintain someone's financial security? Their own... right?
-
To put it pure and simply this is all about greed on the part of coporate america. It has nothing at all to do with whether the person doing the outsources job is hard working or competent.
Why do I say this simple.
Is there a single american company who uses outsourced individuals who have reduced the price of their products or services?
I do a lot of freelance work, being on the marketing and design side it is very hard to outsource my job over seas. An Indian or Chinese company does not understand our culture enough to come up with effective advertising, graphic desing, or marketing for the U.S. market and vice a versa.
But I have experience a lot of clients who then use outsource programmers.
The outsource companies charges I have seen have ranged from $11 an hour for a senior level ASP / .ASP net programmer to (3 years experience) to $6 an hour for junior level programmer. Now remember the Indian outsourcing company is taking a bite of this so the actually Indian programmer is making in some cases less than our minimum wage.
The kicker is they are getting software application / programmer work done at these levels but they are still charging U.S. clients $100 to $125 an hour for the work.
Have any of you seen the cost of a single software product go down after they switched to outsourced help?
How about the cost of single manufactured product made overseas in China, etc. go down at all? Laborers paid less than a U.S. worker but the product is still priced the same.
So workers are paid peanuts over seas, we are still charged U.S. rate for the services, product, etc. that costs half or a 1/4 of what it used to do with a U.S. worker. So only the company and the share holders benefit.
As pointed out .. well you started destroying the salaries and earning power of people over hear .. who is left to buy your product or service at what they charge?
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I have no doubt that more jobs will be lost. I also have no doubt many thousands more will be saved since a company will become more competitive in a global market. One mistake I've seen time after time again is complacency in ones job. Never stop learning, always look for something better, never "expect" to have a job, complete your work like someone else wants your job. That's the key to survival today in the job market. Most importantly, save money, and never put yourself in a position where you *need* a company pension or Social security.
LOL.. Rip.. Like Hangtime said, take a look in the mirror. You've probably spent at least an hour today in this just this thread, reading and replying. I'm sure Boeing could outsource someone to do your job too if they knew how effecient you were being.
Just remember, Boeing makes very high dollar equipment that requires large investments from one of the worst struggling industries in America. Ticket prices for airlines are going up because of energy costs which is going to cause Americans to travel less. Less travel means the airlines struggle more, which means they start cancelling orders or not making them in the first place.
Corporate America's greed is steadily chipping away at the stability of our economy and ability to stay ahead.
It is the Share holders and execs who think they are so much better than all of the other people out there that makes it even worse. Of course it is cheaper to outsource, because the people in India, China, etc. are willing to work for so much less because they don't have a clue as to what they are NOT getting. It's great for them to be able to afford a 2 bedroom appartment so they and the 10 other people they live with can have a little more room and maybe afford a car for the family.
Meanwhile, share holders and execs look down their noses at us while they wonder which BMW they should drive and how big they should make the 2nd indoor swimming pool at their forth vaction home.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
LOL.. Rip.. Like Hangtime said, take a look in the mirror. You've probably spent at least an hour today in this just this thread, reading and replying. I'm sure Boeing could outsource someone to do your job too if they knew how effecient you were being.
Just remember, Boeing makes very high dollar equipment that requires large investments from one of the worst struggling industries in America. Ticket prices for airlines are going up because of energy costs which is going to cause Americans to travel less. Less travel means the airlines struggle more, which means they start cancelling orders or not making them in the first place.
Corporate America's greed is steadily chipping away at the stability of our economy and ability to stay ahead.
It is the Share holders and execs who think they are so much better than all of the other people out there that makes it even worse. Of course it is cheaper to outsource, because the people in India, China, etc. are willing to work for so much less because they don't have a clue as to what they are NOT getting. It's great for them to be able to afford a 2 bedroom appartment so they and the 10 other people they live with can have a little more room and maybe afford a car for the family.
Meanwhile, share holders and execs look down their noses at us while they wonder which BMW they should drive and how big they should make the 2nd indoor swimming pool at their forth vaction home.
Midnight. I get 4 weeks vacation a year. I'm using some of it this week thank you very much. ;)
As for my job, I know that I could be replaced at any moment. That's why I am always in some sort of education training, school, and I network with other professionals as well. Its dog eat dog. You have to be ready to be replaced. If you're not, don't cry victim to me, because I've been ready, and have been through 4 career changes due to lay-offs, job outsourcing, etc. within the same company. I've tolerated 1 lay-off, 2 labor strikes, and more "60-day warn notices" than you could imagine.
As for the rest of your post, typical left wing crap. "Corporations are eviiiilllllll! They don't care about people! EEEEEEEviiilllll " SOS, just a different thread. As for my evil corporation, my house is paid for in 8 years. I retire in 12. If they laid me off tomorrow, I could still go into early retirement because I've prepared for retirement since I came into this company in 1979.
-
Global Sourcing and Supply Chain is what I do for a living.
I've been to more than my share of factories throughout Asia and across much of the globe.
Outsourcing is an undeniable fact of corporate life. To not consider it as a very viable financial tool is irresponsible.
But let's also remember that, in certain niche markets, the US is being used as an outsourcing base for other countries.
Also, a trend I've seen lately is bringing back some products or services that had been outsourced earlier. As corporations evolve and go through the successes and failures of different outsourcing projects, they bring back those which, while more costly up-front to produce domestically, yield better bottom-line long term results. Or items that cannot be as profitable with an elongated supply chain.
-
Yep, problem is they are willing to work for peanuts. Why because the cost of things in their country is not the same as here.
What is the cost of medicine or a doctor in their countries compared to here? What is the cost of food? Housing? Electricity? etc.
In many cases they don't have access to things we take for granted. It is not really unions driving up costs it is simply the cost of living in the U.S. and many western countries.
I live in south florida. The average cost of a house down here is $300K. The cost for a single bedroom apartment is $900. This is not something a union has done. It is the cost of living here. Meaning you have to make a wage that will allow you to live in south florida (btw $900 a month = $10800 a year, $6.15 minimum wage is $12,792).
Corporations are shifting more and more medical cost to the worker. Retirement benefits are a joke and they are doing what they can again to shift things so that worker puts in the lion share into their 401Ks (less matching, no matching), etc.
So corporate american is shifting the burden to the individual for health and retirmenent as much as they can get away with. Then they turn around and outsource their labor to countries where a person making $6.00 an hour is more than a liveable wage in that country.
I don't blame the person in the country .. they are making good money for where they live and in light of their standard of living. However, these companies turn around and sell their services and products in the U.S. market at the same rate as before.
And as pointed out sooner or later the majority of people will no longer be able to afford their products or services in the country because they have no longer are making the salary that allows them to spend money on anything but the basics.
Short term the companies really profit, long term they are destroying the buying power of their customers. Hard to buy things when you are out of work or barely getting by.
-
"A firms decision to replacing workers with machines is identical to the motivation for outsourcing". Economist Thomas Sowell from the University of Chicago said "anything that increases economic efficiency--whether by outsourcing or a hundred other things--is likely to cost somebody's job. The automobile cost the jobs of people who took care of horses or made saddles, carriages, and horseshoes." Walter Williams, another economist, said "we could probably think of hundreds of jobs that either don't exist or exist in far fewer numbers than in the past--jobs such as elevator operator, TV repairman and coal deliveryman. 'Creative destruction is a discovery process where we find ways to produce goods and services more cheaply. That in turn makes us all richer."
Professor Drezner reports that for every dollar spent on outsourcing to
India, the United States reaps between $1.12 and $1.14 in benefits. Drezner also points out that large software companies such as
Microsoft and Oracle have increased outsourcing and
used the savings for investment and larger domestic payrolls.
Nationally, 70,000 computer programmers lost their jobs between 1999 and
2003, but more than 115,000 computer software engineers found
higher-paying jobs during that same period.
I wonder how many Hangtimes there were at the turn of the century bashing the guys that worked on mechanical machines, rather than relying on humans or horses? "MISINFORMED"....its not a beauty pageant queen, fellas...
-
Originally posted by Midnight
It is the Share holders and execs who think they are so much better than all of the other people out there that makes it even worse. Of course it is cheaper to outsource, because the people in India, China, etc. are willing to work for so much less because they don't have a clue as to what they are NOT getting. It's great for them to be able to afford a 2 bedroom appartment so they and the 10 other people they live with can have a little more room and maybe afford a car for the family.
It is the shareholders that own the company. Without shareholders, there would be no company, no jobs to be outsourced. Why do you think people are shareholders of a company? For the benefit of society as a whole? To be good samaritan & to help people maintain high standards of living? Don't be naive. People buy stock & risk their capital in order to earn returns. Pure & simple, stock holders are looking to make money. Nothing wrong with that. Without their capital there is no company or jobs. Increased earnings are a driver in stock returns & profits.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I wonder how many Hangtimes there were at the turn of the century bashing the guys that worked on mechanical machines, rather than relying on humans or horses? "MISINFORMED"....its not a beauty pageant queen, fellas...
I'm sorry, but this is a very different thing. Changing technology did not outsource the jobs to a whole other country. People who used to take care of horses could learn to fix cars or up their horse care rates as the amount of caretakers went down over time.
Sure, IT workers can find a different job now, but wat about in five years? If all the manufacturing and customer service jobs are overseas, what will go next? Will it be accountants? How about middle-management. If all the workers are overseas, the managers won't be needed here.
Construction in the US won't be paying much either, because companies won't be building anything here.
------
Also, don't forget how greedy corporate America wasn't worried about pollution and toxic wastes not so long ago. It was cheeper to just dump waste into the rivers and oceans rather than investing in the proper equipment. I believe the corprate explaination was that the rivers and oceans would always be able to carry away all the pollutants and it wouldn't matter... Well.. Superfund.
BTW... don't try to put me over on the "Left Wing" with your BS political view. I'll give you plenty of my thoughts and views that will have bleeding heart Liberals crying in their boots.
-
Midnight. Just read the figures yourself. Non-farm payrolls up 215,000 jobs in NOVEMBER ALONE!
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
Economies are not static, they fluctuate. So do jobs and job markets. Trust me, someone 100 years ago was saying the same thing about these new fangled machines taking over jobs just as you are outsourcing, and whether you like it or not, it is the same.
Meanwhile, I'm happy to say that I've asked for (and received) additional resources to complete our testing, both offshore and within the U.S. By relying on offshore help, we've helped to keep jobs, and add a few more...thats all I have to say on this subject because its evident from the posts that most of you haven't a clue (except Stringer and BigGun) about outsourcing.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
It is the shareholders that own the company. Without shareholders, there would be no company, no jobs to be outsourced. Why do you think people are shareholders of a company? For the benefit of society as a whole? To be good samaritan & to help people maintain high standards of living? Don't be naive. People buy stock & risk their capital in order to earn returns. Pure & simple, stock holders are looking to make money. Nothing wrong with that. Without their capital there is no company or jobs. Increased earnings are a driver in stock returns & profits.
Right, there is nothing wrong with that, but sometimes when those investors push for changes to get more money out of their stock right now, and do not worry about the value in 6 months they cause problems for the company and the customer.
Profit should not get in the way of product quality within reason.
(if they did it right, or let the company be run the right way instead of trying to strangle every cent out for profit this quarter, they might even make more money in the long run.)
An example of this would be.
You have a software product. It is not ready to ship. You ship it anyway because if you do not get it in the channel for Xmas, you won't make your goals this quarter and the board will go for people’s heads.
You ship, you make some money. But lose many customers pissed about your product having issues.
If the company waited until they had a solid product, they would have picked up more customers and made more money.
(There is more to it then that of course, you have to look at the whole development cycle to see how you got there in the first place. But my whole point is companies make stupid decisions based on making money in the short term to please there investors. In the long run it cost them money in return and lost customers)
It used to be said the customer is always right, well thats not true anymore if making it right for the customer cost investors of few cents on their stock.
Taking ownership in something should mean you want it to be good at what it does, not get every pennie you can strangle from it and move on.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Pure & simple, stock holders are looking to make money. Nothing wrong with that.
Those in the lower strata want money too. If they get it they are called overpaid. If those in the upper strata get it, they are deserving.
I was reading about one of the airlines wants it unions to take pay cuts because of bankruptcy. At the same time it wants to give increases to its corporate people because "we don't want them to jump ship". That would be the same people that ran them into bankruptcy to begin with. In effect, telling the pilots and maintainance guys it's their fault and they should be penalized while the fat cats get a bonus for being inefficient.
That's the American way. I got mine, screw you.
-
Gator..good points...and I agree, good corporation is focused on long term profitability. From your example I see how short term goals can conflict with long term goals.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Gator..good points...and I agree, good corporation is focused on long term profitability. From your example I see how short term goals can conflict with long term goals.
Exactly. I my experiance it has been that way more often then not. Some worse then others though. Some didn't even make noise about caring about the customer lol.
I dont think investing in a company should be looked at as a short term thing. I think many do and thats part of the greater problem.
-
I agree with the first post of this thread - just boycott the company if possible and encourage your friends to do the same. I really don't care if the business has to lay off workers or go out of business because they can't utilize slavery (or just about) in other countries. Let them move their corporate offices to India and let India's government and military protect their interest instead of MY tax dollars. It seems any business decision is ok if it makes money, regardless if its unpatriotic or not. Just move your your corporation to India and get out of here ok? If I feel the need for an Indian ISP, I'll call you. But stop the deception and stop laying on the leg of United States protection when you don't support its economy. Basically, you're (editorial "you're" meaning outsourcing "American" companies) a leech.
-
We switched ISP's simply because Earthlink outsourced their tech support to India. If I have a computer problem and need to call tech support, the tech support might as well be non-existent if I can't understand that thick Indian accent.
Keep in mind that Earthlink lost a customer they had had for 6 years simply because they effectively no longer had tech support.
-
Well, the moral of the story: educate yourself into a job that can't be outsourced
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
Well, the moral of the story: educate yourself into a job that can't be outsourced
and the other story of the moral is the fact that those jobs are dwindlin as tech advances allow everything to be done from somewhere else - cheaper when the locals at those locations work for peanuts er a bowl of rice... I guess there will always be the need for garbage men and bag boys, hard to outsource those positions...today
-
I'd imagine that is where most of BG's vaunted "job growth" in the past 5 years has been.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Midnight. Just read the figures yourself. Non-farm payrolls up 215,000 jobs in NOVEMBER ALONE!
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
I Laugh at those kind of figures and I call you a fool for even bringing them into this thread by just showing the 215,000 number and mentioning the rest of the same sentence. That is typical for a statistics manipulator and spin doctor. Let me just post the full sentence.
Nonfarm payroll employment grew by 215,000 in November, and the unemployment rate was unchanged at 5.0 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.
What that tells me is that farm workers got laid off after harvest season and some new jobs were probably created in construction down south after the hurricanes and retail stores are doing their temporary hires for the X-mass season. So don't try to spew your cream covered view of the job situation with that half-truth statement.
Very good of you to say that the people who don't agree with you here don't know anything, and those that do agree must know.
Big Gun's explaination is such a perfect example of corporate greed and my previous post about them looking down their noses at us. All they care about is how much money THEY can make for THEMSELVES and do whatever they can do to NOT let anyone else make money, especially the AMERICAN workers that helped to build most of these companies to put those greedy executives in thier lofty positions.
Stop trying to convince the general public that you are trying to compete in the global economy by outsourcing all of our labor and manufacturing to other countries with the lowest bid. America has a huge trade deficit that is growing every day, so as far as I can see, we are not competing with anyone.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Big Gun's explaination is such a perfect example of corporate greed and my previous post about them looking down their noses at us. All they care about is how much money THEY can make for THEMSELVES and do whatever they can do to NOT let anyone else make money, especially the AMERICAN workers that helped to build most of these companies to put those greedy executives in thier lofty positions.
Stop trying to convince the general public that you are trying to compete in the global economy by outsourcing all of our labor and manufacturing to other countries with the lowest bid. America has a huge trade deficit that is growing every day, so as far as I can see, we are not competing with anyone.
I am just stating how I view it & feel it is fairly accurate. And to some degree, corporations have an ethical obligation to its owners, shareholders, to maximize long-term earnings. It is their capital that makes the business run, without it there is no company. Also as a shareholder comes the right to vote proxies & give direction to the company. We vote hundreds of proxies every year, and increased corporate governance is at the top of the list along with making executive compensation tied to performance.
As an investor, we invest to earn a return, the higher the better. If a company is not competitive, earnings are weak & our chance to earn return is diminished, we will simply sell that stock driving down the price and buy the stock of a healthy company. Investors put their capital at risk & deserve a return. To invest in companies which you thought didn't maximize chance to earn the highest return would be simply foolish. I sure would have my job long if that was the case. Would be hard to defend to say, well we know they aren't competitive in global market and aren't focused on maximizing return to shareholders, but they sure do provide a high level of compensation to employees & high benefits to employees even though the returns suck.
Do you own stocks? how about mutual funds that invest in stock? If you do then you are providing capital to the very companies you are complaining about. Best way to make change is to own stocks & vote proxies, or sell the stock/mutual funds that invest in stocks. Also good way is to vote with your pocket book, even if it means you are paying more.
If you are someone that is working at a low level manufacturing job where it is probable the same thing will be produced in tiawan at a lower costs, highly likely it is because you made decisions some point in your life that got you to where you are. Maybe it is you chose not to go to college, maybe you screwed around in high school & got bad grades. Could be a multitude of reasons. However, in most situations, a person ends up with a job because of choices they made at some point in their life, good or bad. It is called personal responsiblity. Failure to pay attention the the global environment, and re-tool your skills, attain more education & insure you have a skillset that is view as valuable in the job market is just plain foolish. You will more than likely end up with what you deserve.
Also, 5% unemployment is pretty darn close to be considered "full employment" by any economist that knows anything. Compare it to other developed economies around the world, it is actual quite good.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
I guess there will always be the need for garbage men and bag boys, hard to outsource those positions...today
Save-A-Lot stores don't have bagboys. You have to bag them yourself.
-
It gets even worse. I understand that some Indian companies are outsourcing these same jobs to China. They're simply the middle man.
-
Yes, 5% is close to full employment. But if you also go and read report after report they are also talking about how the average household income is going down.
Lot of people have lost jobs and while employed are now working for a significant less amount.
Also as for the trade deficit .. bingo. America is a consumer nation now. Our economy whether the recession not do to corporate america and their purchases or hiring practices or whatever measure but do to consumer consumption.
Remember that George Bush was the 2nd president in history that had a term where the number of employed americans was less than at the start of his term. In his second term job growth has recovered, to what an extent can be debated. However, it is not the case that people the majority of people have gone on to better paying jobs. They got jobs but they are making less.
Cost of living has gotten much higher than it was (the value of my house has gone up 120% in 4 years).
So things cost more and more to purchase, to live, etc. while they make less. Corporations rely on cheap labor outside the country to make their products and services but charge the same or more than they did before but rely on the consumer to keep buying and paying the same price.
There will come a point that the consumer simply can't continue to buy since they no longer have the money.
It happened in Japan .. people became so strapped that they only shelled out money for the essentials and a viscious cycle of deflation kicked in. Where companies had to keep reducing the cost of their products in the hope somebody would by and at the same time letting go workers .. reducing the pool of people with money to buy.
Replace me with somebody that makes $6 an hour, I get a job that makes $12 an hour instead of $20 an hour and corporations expect me to still spend like I was earning $20 and to pay for their products that cost them less to make but still the same price.
Yeah, right.
Fine reap the short term profit but they are destroying their market.
What other country are they going to be able to turn to an sell their services and products to at the price they charge in the U.S.?
-
You know what's funny?
Most people who argue that labor should stay in the USA are the same folks who add millions to WalMarts portfolio by shopping there where the items are cheaper, than their local hometown market.
Businesses are trying to stay competitive by cutting their bottom lines. Labor, insurances, etc.
Its one thing to call others scabs and hipocrites. Its quite another to remove your head from the sand, look around and see that people will always go to whomever can offer product X cheaper than the other.
Dont shame the businesses for chasing the dollar. Shame the population.
-
If you are someone that is working at a low level manufacturing job where it is probable the same thing will be produced in tiawan at a lower costs, highly likely it is because you made decisions some point in your life that got you to where you are.
I guess everyone should have either an MBA or a broom.
The other side of the coin, is that we have a "global economy" yet corporate influence in Washington makes sure that we do not hold these global partners to the same ecological, worker safety and compensation standards that we feel are just and fair -- and in some cases moral -- at home. Who benefits?
1. The politicians have full campaign coffers.
2. The corporate officers that receive enormous compensation for their performance in these areas (long term impact need not apply).
3. Those with the surplus money to invest
4. I suppose consumers get to save .30 on that singing plastic lawn gnome at Wally-World that breaks in 3 months from slipshod quality and with no customer support. Of course, as wages are stretched downwards it becomes a vicious circle - you need to save to survive.
5. Foreign nationals able to earn fast wood server wages writing code (better than nothing, fer sure I guess).
Now, I personally could give a **** about #s 1, 2, 4, 5 and like # 3 IF the investments promote long term benefits to the country (such as driving new localized development that creates jobs and an increased tax base in the US), and not just benefits a shrinking "gated community" subset of the country. So, who loses?
Employment is still high, but we are definitely working to bring that “Taiwan” standard of worker (even white collar) compensation to America. And, we are giving away intellectual capital and marketing know how, likely future marketshare, and critical competitive "know how" to people who will cease to become “partners” as soon as they can get aligned to become fierce competitors. Some of the Chinese Joint ventures I’ve looked will benefit the Chinese FAR more than the American partner -- but there is that “promise” of access to that “vast” Chinese market (that, of course, will ultimately be met by the Chinese companies themselves once they suck all the capitalistic know how they can from us).
So for me… Free market but international agreements that provide at least somewhat of a level playing field (not perfectly level, just marginally level) between the developed and developing countries.
Charon
-
Good Point LePaul.
BigGun... I am not one in a low level manufacturing job and I'm really not worried my job will be replaced or outsourced. I will have a job at the company I work at as long as it is in business. I make a very good salary for a middle-class American that is just shy of six figures.
Unlike you, I care what the rest of the American people have available to them, even if they are less fortunate in their education and oppurtunities. I do agree with you that many Americans are in poor situations through their own actions, but corporate greed have put too many in bad situations just because the execs and share holders wanted to squeeze a couple more cents per share for themselves.
How is it that you or corprate America can justify multi-million dollar bonus programs to execs right after rank-and-file employees have their benefits cut, or their salaries frozen or reduced? That is the biggest fraud and so blatently selfish it makes me sick to think those people call themselves American.
Why don't some of the corporate money-hounds take a pay cut to make the books look better and show some more profits for the share-holders? Oh wait, You all think your better than everyone else, so why should you reduce your pay when you can cut everyone elses... :mad:
-
well.. thats cool idea... but can i make it shorter ?
like... 'Boycott US companies" ? :D
anyway did you see china's IT export rise in 2005 ?
It rose by 40% or so and moved US on the second place :)
-
I find it interesting how stockholders are all laisser-faire untill an Enron, Kmart or soon to be Delphi happens, Then they want all kinds of government investigations into this "obvious fraud" and file petitions to get moved up on the creditors lists, human nature I guess :).
shamus
-
Originally posted by lada
well.. thats cool idea... but can i make it shorter ?
like... 'Boycott US companies" ? :D
anyway did you see china's IT export rise in 2005 ?
It rose by 40% or so and moved US on the second place :)
Now please do explain, my democratic friend, why that makes you smile? Maybe we can see the real "iron curtain" within you?
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Now please do explain, my democratic friend, why that makes you smile? Maybe we can see the real "iron curtain" within you?
Do you speak about that note related to chinese ?
ummmm why shall i be happy about economic success of US ?
Whats wrong about being happy with Chinese success ?
Shall i hate them, plot agains them, because they are commies ?
edit: well this time it was with translator... ummm few letters were missing... you decryptor is quite useless. ;)
-
Originally posted by lada
Do you speak about that note related to chinese ?
ummmm why shall i be happy about economic success of US ?
Whats wrong about beeing happy about Chinese success ?
Shall i hate them plot agains them because they are commies ?
You gotta stop using those online translators and learn english dude, I have no idea what you just said...
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/122670282.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
You gotta stop using those online translators and learn english dude, I have no idea what you just said...
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/122670282.jpg)
done. give it another try.
is it before or after he became beliver ?
-
Originally posted by Eagler
and the other story of the moral is the fact that those jobs are dwindlin as tech advances allow everything to be done from somewhere else - cheaper when the locals at those locations work for peanuts er a bowl of rice... I guess there will always be the need for garbage men and bag boys, hard to outsource those positions...today
Or an electrician, or a carpenter, or a pipefitter/plumber, but you actually have to work and not sit on your prettythang at a desk posting on the internet
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
and not sit on your prettythang at a desk posting on the internet
But thats where all the big buck overpaided jobs are! :D
I find it interesting how stockholders are all laisser-faire untill an Enron, Kmart or soon to be Delphi happens, Then they want all kinds of government investigations into this "obvious fraud" and file petitions to get moved up on the creditors lists, human nature I guess .
Isn't it though. It would be interesting to see all the large corporations investigated. I bet we would be suprised just how crooked they are. Well, not surprised, but it would be fun to see it out in the open.
-
Originally posted by Lye-El
But thats where all the big buck overpaided jobs are! :D
The electrician that put in the wire for my RV garage lives in a 5000 sq. ft. house on the lake, valued at 1.5 million. :huh
-
..and he ain't a sellout, like you; Rip.
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
Or an electrician, or a carpenter, or a pipefitter/plumber, but you actually have to work and not sit on your prettythang at a desk posting on the internet
yep, turning into a service industry nation ... using ones back instead of ones brain
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
The electrician that put in the wire for my RV garage lives in a 5000 sq. ft. house on the lake, valued at 1.5 million. :huh
and his wife ? whats her job ? :D
hey Eagler whats wrong with manual work ?
-
Originally posted by lada
and his wife ? whats her job ? :D
hey Eagler whats wrong with manual work ?
not a thing, I worked service for 20 years averaging 55hr weeks -- my best was over 6 weeks straight with +10 hrs days, without a day off .. it was an active lightning season..
... very glad I do not have to do it now in my mid 40's
-
Originally posted by Eagler
yep, turning into a service industry nation ... using ones back instead of ones brain
local 103, 6 years of school at night while you work on the job before you get your license. All those jobs I listed require a brain and lots of training, you don't step out of highschool and wire a new hospital
-
to the service guys that'll overcharge the corporate ballsac licking Rips of this nation just 'on principal', I salute you!
There is no onus at all, in fact quite the contrary; for any man that takes on a trade, union or otherwize, masters it and strikes out under his own banner to make a place for himself and his family.
The last Americans.
-
My friends in high school scoffed when I chose to attend vocational programs (Auto Body Repair) instead of persuing a University degree. I went so far as to not even consider taking my SAT. I believe I'm quite intelligent enough to have gone into just about any field and earn my degree, from just about any University... Penn State University being just one of many that phoned me and sent literature in hopes to lure me to their programs.
These same condescending friends are working about the same jobs they were in high school, only now they have thousands upon thousands of dollars of student loan debt, and nothing but a useless piece of paper to show for it. Meanwhile, I'm making a comfortable living doing a job many consider to be the home of rednecks and hicks. So little my generation knows, and it's taking a toll on them. I'll always have a job so long as people use vehicles to travel. Even if oil runs out, and we switch to alternate fuels, people will still wreck their cars and I'll still be needed to repair them.
Outsourcing is not a concern of mine on a personal level, but it is for my nation, and that bothers me quite a bit. This country needs to realize that the blue collar workers are the ones that keep the country moving, and that not everyone can work in the IT business.
If you read this and you are under the age of 35, I strongly suggest taking a form of manual labor class such as plumbing or carpentry. These are invaluable skills to have, and it gives you white collar people a skill to fall back on. It will also help you save money in your personal life, because you won't have to pay us "overpaid" workers the wages we deserve to get.
-
Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
My friends in high school scoffed when I chose to attend vocational programs (Auto Body Repair) instead of persuing a University degree. I went so far as to not even consider taking my SAT. I believe I'm quite intelligent enough to have gone into just about any field and earn my degree, from just about any University... Penn State University being just one of many that phoned me and sent literature in hopes to lure me to their programs.
These same condescending friends are working about the same jobs they were in high school, only now they have thousands upon thousands of dollars of student loan debt, and nothing but a useless piece of paper to show for it. Meanwhile, I'm making a comfortable living doing a job many consider to be the home of rednecks and hicks. So little my generation knows, and it's taking a toll on them. I'll always have a job so long as people use vehicles to travel. Even if oil runs out, and we switch to alternate fuels, people will still wreck their cars and I'll still be needed to repair them.
Outsourcing is not a concern of mine on a personal level, but it is for my nation, and that bothers me quite a bit. This country needs to realize that the blue collar workers are the ones that keep the country moving, and that not everyone can work in the IT business.
If you read this and you are under the age of 35, I strongly suggest taking a form of manual labor class such as plumbing or carpentry. These are invaluable skills to have, and it gives you white collar people a skill to fall back on. It will also help you save money in your personal life, because you won't have to pay us "overpaid" workers the wages we deserve to get.
Great post, Johnny - and kudos to you for making the choices you did. :aok
I know this thread is about America, but you might find this interesting. One of the things that's wrong with Britain right now is the current Labour government refuses to allow selection by merit, and actively discourages any form of competitive activity. Back in the 1960s, we all took an exam at age 11 known as the 11-plus. Those who passed were deemed to be suitable for life in academia and were sent to state grammar schools. Those who did not pass (I think it's inappropriate to use the F-word) went to a type of school known as a secondary modern. There they were freed from a sizeable proportion of desk work, which they obviously found distressing, and could learn skills such as carpentry, car mechanics, bricklaying - all the things Johnny mentioned. I must admit to being a little jealous when I heard what some of my SM friends were getting up to.
The thing is that not everyone is suited to doing university degrees and, as Johnny points out, we'll always need people like plumbers, electricians. And that's why they can be so difficult to find these days - they're all being railroaded into doing college degrees.
I say that govt. should quit trying to social engineer us. Stop forcing people to stay in academia if they're clearly not suited to it, and let them develop skills in what they're good at.
-
learn MANY skills, Johnny. Specialization is for Insects.
A man should know how to lay pipe, shingle a roof, dig and pour a foundation, frame a house, change a water pump, make a quality table, install basic wiring, repair a toaster, cook a decent meal, fix a washing machine and clean a bathroom, change a diaper and stitch up a flesh wound...
And he should have a .308 or better battle rifle and be able to put 20 rounds through a 10" bull at 200 yards with open sights in under 2 minutes EVERY time.
Men should be MEN.. sheep, women and democrats should be nervous in their presence.
Today's kids can't even change a flat tire.. now why is that?
;)
-
I can't speak for anyone but myself. My friends and I grew up in the woods, first with guns made of tree branches, then my trusty Crossman 760, and finally today I own 6 firearms, and am looking at a MAK-90 one of those friends is selling. He has 4, plus other hunting rifles. I learned basic home repair from my father, enough to fix the toilet, or clean out the chimney. All that firewood splitting did me good.
I think the biggest problem with my generation is the fact that the generation before mine can't keep a marriage together. Too many young men my age lack a "man of the house". Sure, my father spent long hours at work, and likes to go to a bar now and again, but we do spend time together at our local dirt speedway, or occasionally hunting, although I've somewhat lost interest in the latter.
Another reason I'm single....I don't want to have a child and be involved with a woman I can't stand just for the sake of the kid. It's not right for the kid, and selfish as it may seem, it's not right for me. And the "use protection" line is a joke, we all know accidents can happen.
Kids being coddled by those that came before us, and kids from broken homes are why my generation struggles mainly I believe. It's why I took offense in the other thread, the biggest reason why my generation are "slackers" is not our fault, however, it's the fault of the generation calling us such names.
I take personal responsibilty for my own actions, and I think I've turned out ok because of the beliefs instilled in me by two loving parents who let me eat dirt and jump out of trees, meaning, I was free to make my own mistakes, deal with the ramifications, and learn from them, without some government program created by a 55 year old politician telling me the way to handle it.
-
Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
I can't speak for anyone but myself. My friends and I grew up in the woods, first with guns made of tree branches, then my trusty Crossman 760, and finally today I own 6 firearms, and am looking at a MAK-90 one of those friends is selling. He has 4, plus other hunting rifles. I learned basic home repair from my father, enough to fix the toilet, or clean out the chimney. All that firewood splitting did me good.
I think the biggest problem with my generation is the fact that the generation before mine can't keep a marriage together. Too many young men my age lack a "man of the house". Sure, my father spent long hours at work, and likes to go to a bar now and again, but we do spend time together at our local dirt speedway, or occasionally hunting, although I've somewhat lost interest in the latter.
Another reason I'm single....I don't want to have a child and be involved with a woman I can't stand just for the sake of the kid. It's not right for the kid, and selfish as it may seem, it's not right for me. And the "use protection" line is a joke, we all know accidents can happen.
Kids being coddled by those that came before us, and kids from broken homes are why my generation struggles mainly I believe. It's why I took offense in the other thread, the biggest reason why my generation are "slackers" is not our fault, however, it's the fault of the generation calling us such names.
I take personal responsibilty for my own actions, and I think I've turned out ok because of the beliefs instilled in me by two loving parents who let me eat dirt and jump out of trees, meaning, I was free to make my own mistakes, deal with the ramifications, and learn from them, without some government program created by a 55 year old politician telling me the way to handle it.
Hmmm...........
Sir you may have a point.
In fact I find myself in agreement with some, if not much, of what you say.
The NO FAULT divorce created some real problems for many. They don't have to worry about compatability. Or trying to make things work.
The VAWA act totaly ignores the fact that many females will start a fight by physically attacking their male. Got punched square in the nose by my last ex. She had/has allot of baggage from her previous relationships. Took it out on me, and then she swore up and down it was my fault. She and I parted the day she hit my mother. My mother was using a walker to get around at the time. She tried to come back at least 3 different times. NOPE!
Getting hitched nowadays can turn into pure HELL for the male. Don't know why the men keep doing it, but they do. The children suffer, the men suffer, and to a degree so do the women. The current system is pretty unfair to many males, many of the children, and in an odd way many of the women.
So why subject yourself to it? Why submit yourself to the abuse? SEX?
-
Johnny, I was with yah right up to here:
It's why I took offense in the other thread, the biggest reason why my generation are "slackers" is not our fault, however, it's the fault of the generation calling us such names.
Thats horsepucky. Blaming anybody else for their actions, non-performance, or substandard work ethos just continues the blame game BS of dodging responsibility. It's YOUR watch now TOO.. and your just as responsible as I am to insure that your local surroundings are in keeping with your personal morals regarding such behavior. See somebody try to dodge responsibility for being a pinhead slacker?? Nail him for it right then and there. The more they get away with it, the longer they'll hide behind it.
No dodging the blame.. we all share it, diffrence is, who's owning up to it, and then doing something to change it. THATS how we end it... make 'em face the music and if they don't like the tune, then they can change the damn record.
-
I take personal responsibilty for my own actions, and I think I've turned out ok because of the beliefs instilled in me by two loving parents who let me eat dirt and jump out of trees, meaning, I was free to make my own mistakes, deal with the ramifications, and learn from them, without some government program created by a 55 year old politician telling me the way to handle it.
I can't speak for others my age, but I DO take responsibility for what I do.
-
Hang... you should use quotes and give the author credit so others - who may not know who wrote that - can appreciate his work. You can't call someone a scab, then borrow such great lines without giving credit.
-
This has all been discussed before but I'll repeat myself anyway. Global outsourcing is cutting our own long term throats. Oh for BigGun and his investors it's great for now but basically it's slave labour by the back door.
Take US Car manufacturers. How long can they continue to lose billions of $$ per quarter. If they can't adapt, they will become extinct and all those people working for them. There number one problem is labor unions, being force to pay high wages which make products non-competitive. In the long run, that can not persist.
High comparitive wages........ and the reason we have high comparitive wages ?? Well over the last hundred years or so we have developed societies where we consider a certain standard of living a minimum acceptable level. That standard of living costs money. In the countries where we outsource to these standards do not exist - we would find the poverty and infrastructure levels intolerable in our western countries but our corporate leaders are happy to turn a blind eye to the working and living conditions in China and India because it is not their responsibilty. Moral free profits ...
If we accept this global view then ALL of us in the west had better wake up to a major shift down in our standard of living if we wish to stay competitive. Is this the legacy you want to leave your kids Rip ??
Airbus just sold 120 new aircraft to China and what else went with it ?? Oh yes - agreement to build the A320 production line in China ... in a few years a large chunk of high skilled jobs are going to be lost.
It's rosy for you now Rip and you may consider that your "pro-activeness" has saved you but I believe you have just been lucky in location and timing. I have seen many guys who have taken the same approach of upskilling and traing still get replaced and laid off. Your kids may not be so fortunate.
Go to India and live the life of a degree qualified software engineer in Mumbai for a few months and come back and tell me thats the standard of living you want for your kids in 10 or 15 years.
Sparks
-
Originally posted by Rolex
Hang... you should use quotes and give the author credit so others - who may not know who wrote that - can appreciate his work. You can't call someone a scab, then borrow such great lines without giving credit.
I doubt I've had an original thought my entire life. ;)
As for quotes.. I'm pretty sure the 'Specialization is for Insects' line was Heinlein's; and he no doubt borrowed it himself, since my granddad was fond of the same line and he never read a line of science fiction in his entire life. The rest I no doubt read somewhere else and it made an impression, but I've no clue as to the original author(s). Being a lazy chit, if I coulda quoted it off hand from another source I woulda insteada mis-typing or mangling it from memory.
Such as it is. ;)
-
To the Investors, a question... Give an honest answer.
ABC Company makes a product that is very useful and sells well. For each unit sold, ABC makes a 15% net profit. A company overseas says they can make the same item with almost identical quality, but much cheaper and will be able to provide a net profit of 20%.
The investors know that if they switch to the overseas company to manufacturer the product, 1000 American workers will loose their jobs and the overseas company will pay very low wages to their workers, not to mention the manufacturing plant will put out at least 30% more pollutants and dump thier toxic wastes directly into the ground near a water supply for the local village where the workers live in small apartments and huts.
As an investor, would you keep the manufacturing in America, or move it overseas?
-
Originally posted by Midnight
To the Investors, a question... Give an honest answer.
ABC Company makes a product that is very useful and sells well. For each unit sold, ABC makes a 15% net profit. A company overseas says they can make the same item with almost identical quality, but much cheaper and will be able to provide a net profit of 20%.
The investors know that if they switch to the overseas company to manufacturer the product, 1000 American workers will loose their jobs and the overseas company will pay very low wages to their workers, not to mention the manufacturing plant will put out at least 30% more pollutants and dump thier toxic wastes directly into the ground near a water supply for the local village where the workers live in small apartments and huts.
As an investor, would you keep the manufacturing in America, or move it overseas?
on what their competitors do? does co DEF, GHI and JKL keep their operations in the states or are they moving overseas?
my guess is they all will be overseas or be out of biz as the ones that stay will be undercut..