Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on December 21, 2005, 12:34:30 AM
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If you thought having elections in iraq was a good thing, read this:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article334476.ece
The article starts with this:
"Iraq is disintegrating"
Let us all hope for the best
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Religious fundamentalists now have the upper hand. The secular and nationalist candidate backed by the US and Britain was humiliatingly defeated.
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Originally posted by Yeager
If you thought having elections in iraq was a good thing, read this:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article334476.ece
The article starts with this:
"Iraq is disintegrating"
Let us all hope for the best
$300+ Billion and 2000+ American lives. Hope is pretty ****ing expensive.
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It may look petty, but you supporters of the war in Iraq (a 'war for freedom') need to hear 'we told you so' again and again.
No WMDs found. Lots of US and Iraqi lives wasted to get rid of a tyrant, but the freedom gained looks like it will go down the drain as soon as the country is left to itself. Probably to be replaced by an even greater tyranny.
The self proclaimed 'world police' need to realize that some cultures AREN'T READY for democracy.
You don't give a Xbox 360 to a 2 yrs old toddler as a present. At best, he won't use it but most probably he will wreck it in no time, and chances are that he will hurt himself in the process.
Lesson to be learned: don't offer democracy to religious nuts (or other fanatical cultures).
After causing this mess, I hope that the US forces won't pull back now and leave the country open to the fundamentalists.
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I think Western arrogance and superiority is one of the reasons the Middle Eastern zealots are all twisted up in the first place, but I could be wrong.
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VOR
You may be right. Maybe we should start beating our women and toss out the last 200 years of cultural and industrial progress, just so people don't become enraged with envy at western superiority.
I heard that's Canada's plan anyhow :)
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Amazing, one reporter serves his own personal agenda with a huge load of bias, and people gather around to say "oh gee".
If you fail to look at that and fail to have the obvious bias and slant slap you in the face, then you are dense.
We may not love the result, but it is there future to decide, and how nice they get to decide, to vote.
dago
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So....which book is Mr Cockburn trying to sell now? :)
Probably some old time hardliner reporters in Russia who could put a pretty good spin on the Russian missiles dug up yesterday also.
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(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1994/ch941221.gif)
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Originally posted by deSelys
It may look petty, but you supporters of the war in Iraq (a 'war for freedom') need to hear 'we told you so' again and again.
No WMDs found. Lots of US and Iraqi lives wasted to get rid of a tyrant, but the freedom gained looks like it will go down the drain as soon as the country is left to itself. Probably to be replaced by an even greater tyranny.
The self proclaimed 'world police' need to realize that some cultures AREN'T READY for democracy.
You don't give a Xbox 360 to a 2 yrs old toddler as a present. At best, he won't use it but most probably he will wreck it in no time, and chances are that he will hurt himself in the process.
Lesson to be learned: don't offer democracy to religious nuts (or other fanatical cultures).
After causing this mess, I hope that the US forces won't pull back now and leave the country open to the fundamentalists.
It doesn't just LOOK petty, it is petty, but it is to be expected coming from the likes of YOU.
Don't worry, we don't often cut and run like the UN, although we have at times lately. We aren't as gutless and useless as the UN either, at least when we have something besides a skirt chasing candyass in the main office. Despite all the support we get from a certain group of total gutless idiots as it stands currently the U.S. and at least Britain will stay the course and finish the job.
Of course those who intend to stay the course and finish the job are those you don't like. You know, Bush, Cheney, Blair, Rumsfeld. It's your beloved buddies who want to cut and run. You know, Gore, Kerry, Reid, Pelosi, your kind of people. Funny what that says about you, ain't it. Oh, and the vast majority of those in the military,and those citizens of Iraq, don't seem to count their new found ability to VOTE and have some SELF DETERMINATION as a total waste.
Awfully generous of YOU to determine who is WORTHY of freedom and democracy, and who should suffer under a murderous tyrant. Why you pompous, self important, worthless, snivelling craven coward. What makes you qualified to say that the Iraqis or anyone else isn't worthy and deserving of anything other than decades of brutal treatment by a murderous tyrant? So YOU DESERVE freedom and democracy, and those who are being crushed under tyranny do not? I call BULL****! YOU won't fight to help them, but someone else will fight to help them, and they line up to fight to help themselves, but YOU feel you should be able to determine they aren't WORTHY of democracy and freedom. Anyone who will not fight for his freedom and the freedom of others deserves no freedom of his own.
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You are the only one here using the word "deserve", that is no what Deselys said. Step of that high horse... clean your nose, it's full of **** after he rubbed it in.
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WOW!
Holy Moley!
Holy Moses
Holy Cow!
Shia won in Shia areas!
Sunni Won in Sunni areas!
And Kuds won in Kurdish areas!
Thats almost as utterly shocking as the Democrats winning in California
And the Republicans winning in Texas
(http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/disz-gif/animgif/szelrozsa.gif)
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Originally posted by Dago
We may not love the result, but it is there future to decide, and how nice they get to decide, to vote.
dago
Exactly. The main point is missed entirely
Which is
"THEY get to decide and VOTE"
The outcome is about as surprising to me as a catholic being voted pope
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Originally posted by Saintaw
You are the only one here using the word "deserve", that is no what Deselys said. Step of that high horse... clean your nose, it's full of **** after he rubbed it in.
"Deserve" and "ready for" amount to the same thing in this case. His position is that the Iraqis should have remained under Saddam Hussien's tyranny. Justify THAT position and lower yourself to his level.
Get off YOUR high horse hot dog, he didn't rub my nose in anything. A number of Iraqis have tried on several occasions to free themselves of Saddam's tyranny. THIS time someone stepped in and helped. THEY were ready, and THEY deserved the help. ANYTIME a man is willing to risk EVERYTHING to remain free or gain his freedom, he is READY to be free and deserves freedom. The fact that there are those in the same country who oppose that freedom makes Iraq no different than any other country. There are those in ANY country who would attempt to establish the sort of government that those fundamentalist psychopaths in Iraq, or anywhere else in the Middle East, are attempting to establish. I suppose that means none of those people in those countries are "ready" for democracy. BULL****!
VERY rarely in the history of mankind has any group of people under tyranny thrown off the shackles of that tyranny and oppression without at least SOME measure of outside assistance. To say that those in Iraq who crave freedom and are willing to fight for it are any less ready or worthy than any other race, creed, religion, or color, is pure garbage and elitism.
Now, you and your buddy go ahead and tell us all again how those hundreds of thousands, or more accurately MILLIONS of Iraqis who are and have been willing to fight and die for their freedom and for democracy aren't "ready" for democracy and freedom, and are not worthy of every bit of help ANYONE who enjoys freedom can offer them. Go ahead and tell us all how they are some how lesser men than you.
I say ANY man who is willing to fight, struggle, and die for his own freedom and chance at democracy is ready for it and worthy of help. What say you?
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Thanks for your answer, Capt VH. I hope that no MP will erase it due to the personal attacks because your reaction is very interesting.
I'll keep my answer simple: get out of Disneyland and step in the real world. Yes, I'm cynical and yes, I don't have much faith in the human being. It's ugly, but as 2000 years of history are proving me right, it's probably the sanest way of thinking.
I'll add a last comment: I believe that the persons who you're holding in so high regards will precisely be willing to cut and run as soon as the losses will exceed the (material) gains. Because I'm far from being convinced that they did that for some kind of 'iraqi ideal'. After all, it wouldn't be a very republican way of thinking, would it?
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Disneyland? Ha.
As a former law enforcement officer, I can safely assure you that few are as cynical as I am with regards to human nature. Seeing the dregs of society and being cursed, spit on, attacked, and even shot at gives you an entirely different perspective.
That does not mean that I would ever wish to allow anyone who is struggling to do what is right and to be free to instead remain in shackles and downtrodden. Nor does it mean I would be unwilling to help them, even at great personal risk.
Personal attacks? For someone who is quite willing to say an entire country should remain under the power of a murderous tyrant because "they" aren't "ready" for freedom and democracy, you have a real sensitive thin skin. You passed judgement on an entire race and country because of the actions of a few, and you expect your position to go unchallenged? Too damned bad.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Thanks for your answer, Capt VH. I hope that no MP will erase it because of the personal attacks because your reaction is very interesting.
I'll keep my answer simple: get out of Disneyland and step in the real world. Yes, I'm cynical and yes, I don't have much faith in the human being. It's ugly, but as 2000 years of history are proving me right, it's probably the sanest way of thinking.
I'll add a last comment: I believe tha
WOW if only we had had your vision and faith in WWII, Lots of US and civilian lives wasted to get rid of a tyrant. If only we could get those 300,000 lives back so someone could say "I told you so" I am sure there were pleanty of people who thought the same way because they knew it all in advance.
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Here we go again.... bleh.
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http://michaelyon-online.com/media/video/15Dec05Election.wmv
Disintegrating indeed :rolleyes:
I have to wonder what bubble some of these writers are living in.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Why you pompous, self important, worthless, snivelling craven coward.
Brings a tear to my eye. Seems like the good ole days.
Don`t worry bout it too much Cap`n. If they wish to take a closet commie`s article to heart, let em. I think it`s quite hilarious actualy. :)
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Here we go again.... bleh.
Yes, here we go again. Your buddy pronounced judgement on an entire country and said they weren't "ready" for freedom or democracy. Several are calling him on it, he's trying to justify it and you're trying to back him up.
In the eyes of most, to deserve freedom you only have to be willing to fight for it. You don't have to be perfect, and you don't have to overthrow a tyrant with an army rated in the top ten in the world for size and strength with a couple of thousand men and primitive weapons.
However, in the eyes of your buddy, and evidently you as well, in order to be "ready" to be free, you have to be perfect. You cannot make mistakes in who you elect. You cannot make errors in how you set up your government, and you must agree with the way Europe and the UN think. You must be willing to die fighting a fight you cannot win, and you must not expect to get outside help or wait for outside help. You must also setup this perfect government in 90 days and have perfect peace and order in 180 days.
So, in your eyes, no people or nation on Earth has ever been "ready" for freedom or democracy.
In light of your views, we suggest you immediately surrender all your freedom and rights to self detemrination, and go quickly submit to the nearest suitable tinpot tyrant and suffer until someone better than you decides you are "ready" for freedom. Short of that, we kindly ask that you STFU and go hump someone else's leg for a decade or two.
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Originally posted by Yeager
If you thought having elections in iraq was a good thing, read this:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article334476.ece
The article starts with this:
"Iraq is disintegrating"
Let us all hope for the best
2 seconds worth of google show Patrick Cockburn's bias. He has been calling everything about Iraq a failure since day one.
If the partial results are confirmed, no party will have enough seats in the 275-seat parliament to form a government by itself. This is the way it was designed, a coalition goverment "has" to be formed it will not be a shia only club.
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You sure seem to read a lot in 5 words. My "here we go again" was refering to Krusher's WWII reference. You are again taking credit for something you haven't done... a habit on this board. (With a few exceptions of course).
"I did my part! ... I sent a 5$ voucher"
Again, it might look good from that high horse you're standing on... nevertheless, let's see where the election results takes them in 6 months time... feel free to quote me then. untill then, you STFU.
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I think there is a lot of knee jerking going on right now. I don't think that the elections will put in another tyrant. From the euro liberal rag, check out this US liberal rag on these issues:
Iraqi Elections (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121500228.html)
The elections will determine Iraq's first full-term National Assembly since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion. The government to be formed by the four-year parliament will face nothing less than the remaking of Iraq: whether it should be a secular or strongly Islamic state; whether it will be unified or split into three or more sectarian and ethnic sub-regions; and whether it will have war or peace. Political violence since the current government took office in April has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of U.S. troops.
I it's anything like a typical parliment or congress, much won't get accomlished, but at least these people are now able to decide for themselves. You euros need to lighten up and allow others freedom and the chance to get out of the dark ages instead of trying to continue to hold onto your colonies.
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I'm not taking credit for anything at all. I never served, I was rated 4F at the ripe old age of 18. I never claimed to have served, and never claimed I did anything in any way. However, a huge number of my friends have served. To a man, they believe in both the Afghanis and the Iraqis, and that they will be able to achieve freedom and democracy, but they don't expect it over night, nor in six months. Maybe not even in a couple of years.
Oh, a $5 voucher?:rofl I give regularly to the USO and other organizations that support the troops. I also volunteer for those organizations because I could not serve, and now that the restrictions are relaxed I'm still two years too old.
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VH, I'm not justifying anything. I'm telling you what's happening and what will happen if US forces leave Iraq too soon. I won't enter the mudslinging fight that you're trying to start, but everyone tries to fight at his advantage, right?
1) I don't know where you've got the impression that Iraqis were fighting against Saddam. I don't remember that an insurrection was going on before and during the US intervention. The only rebels who are active now are fighting against the US.
2) Toppling a regime, evil or not, without a serious candidate to take leadership is moronic. This is exactly what US has done in Iraq. It's funny that all of you guys proning a firm education on your kids (which I'm proning too, btw) haven't realized that most men need to be led. Democracy works (barely) in the western world because the culture and the society had time to evolve and adapt. Shove it down the throat of a population which has only lived under oppression and it won't last long. Usually, chaos develops and another ruthless tyrant grab the opportunity to seize reigns. It happened so many times in african and asian countries in the post colonization era and the US hasn't grasped the concept yet?
3) To affirm that GWB and his gang have invaded Iraq to free its oppressed population is less realistic than the BF 1942 flight model.
4) for your career, law enforcement myself. Never been shot at, but it's probably due to our failed gun control system. OTOH, don't assume my unwillingness to insult you in return as a thin skin. Feel free to continue if it helps you, but I suggest to use PMs so your posts won't be deleted.
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I'm not slinging mud, I'm stating fact. By saying they're "not ready", you're saying they're not worthy, and less than you are. That's a fact. If you think you are ready for freedom and they aren't, you judge them as less than you. You are insulting a whole nation of people, and I'm calling you on it.
Yes, the Iraqis have fought against Saddam. He's managed to murder them (his enemies in Iraq) by the thousands, if not millions. Haven't read about the mass graves found full of his victims? Open your eyes. They've been struggling for decades, just because they've been ignored doesn't mean they haven't. That you choose to ignore the thousands who sign up to fight the TERRORISTS does not make them go away, and does not make them imaginary. It makes you look like a fool.
The free world toppled Hitler with no viable replacement in mind, did the same for Hideki Tojo (sp?). Should they have left them in power because they didn't have a replacement in mind? Not hardly.
There's no doubt that Iraq was invaded to remove Saddam as a threat in the best interest of several nations who chose to participate. The fact is that it frees the Iraqis as well is part of the original goal, as it was the goal to replace Saddam with a leader able to deal with the rest of the world in a sane and reasonable manner.
No need for a salute, I followed my Dad, he was there before me, after he served in two wars. I bowed out for selfish reasons. I will not PM you anything, as anything I wish to say to you I'm willing to say in plain public view, as I see no shame in stating it. if Skuzzy deletes my posts, or an MP does, it won't be the first time, nor is it likely to be the last. I have no reason to hide my contempt for your elitist position with regards to an entire nation or region.
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let's ask the average ink stained finger Iraqi if they think we should have given them their freedom...
I care what liberal europe thinks about it as much as I do what liberal America does ...
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Mass graves are not a proof of rebellion. The nazis murdered millions of people who weren't even fighting against the regime.
Germany and Japan were toppled then held during years under the supervision of allies. I've just read a biography of Doenitz and the author explained that a german poll in the 1950s showed that more than 25% of the population was still favourable to Hitler. I wonder what would have happened if Germany had been left alone as soon as 1946.
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Those people you refer to were declared to be enemies of the state, and were killed BEFORE they could rebell. Just because there was not an obvious, armed, violent rebellion constantly in progress does not mean there was no effort to rebell. By the way, Saddam put down more than a couple of armed open rebellions. Again, open your eyes. We failed them after Desert Storm. This time we didn't.
Only liberal Europe and the Democrats (with some exceptions) over here are even suggesting a total pullout on Iraq OR Afghanistan in the hear future. No one who was in favor of starting the job in the first place is considering quitting early. Only fools are demanding a date or a timetable for complete pullout.
In ANY nation you'll find a percentage who prefer evil. SOME people like it. I thought you were a serious student of human nature. OF COURSE you find people who like Hitler, Stalin, Attila the Hun, Ivan the Terrible, and any number of other tyrants. How the HELL do you think they gained power?
As to the terrorists you so kindly refer to as rebels, they are terrorists, nothing more, nothing less. The vast majority of them are killing Iraqis (especially civilians) because they can't really succeed against anyone else. They are not part of the majority, they do not represent Iraq and those Iraqis who yearn to be free. They represent those who desire a return to the tyranny of Saddam, where THEY held power, or those who desire any number of other tyrants, where THEY would hold power. They are the enemy of freedom, not freedom fighters. They exist EVERYWHERE, not just in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Middle East.
It never ceases to amuse me (it has long since ceased to amaze me) how people will tell you how terrible a job you are doing and how stupid you are, and yet demand you stay and finish the job. This is a PERFECT example.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
....
It never ceases to amuse me (it has long since ceased to amaze me) how people will tell you how terrible a job you are doing and how stupid you are, and yet demand you stay and finish the job. This is a PERFECT example.
Nice job of distorting my words to suit your agenda.
I said that you shouldn't have gone to Iraq without a decent plan because you would only make things worse. Now that you've done it anyway, you stay there to clean YOUR mess. Look up my posts from the previous years if you don't believe me.
And, without realizing it as it seems, you're exactly supporting my position in your last post. Read the thread again and you'll finally see the light.
Oh, btw, the nazis were calling the USAF terrorists too. Were they right? I don't think so.
In Iraq, some are terrorists, some are just seeing your intervention as an invasion (and maybe they are manipulated and armed by the former). As the self-proclaimed white knight of freedom, I'm sure that you'll grant them the freedom to defend their country?
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Well, you certainly do amuse me if nothing else.:rofl
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Of course those who intend to stay the course and finish the job are those you don't like. You know, Bush, Cheney, Blair, Rumsfeld.
finish the job? i doubt they have enough time left. What i wonder is who
are willing to be the next Pres. ? i mean, who would like to clean this ****
the people above left ? Because this people will be on holidays soon anyway... ...but for sure not in a "free-elected" Iraq.
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
finish the job? i doubt they have enough time left. What i wonder is who
are willing to be the next Pres. ? i mean, who would like to clean this ****
the people above left ? Because this people will be on holidays soon anyway... ...but for sure not in a "free-elected" Iraq.
So.....Ghost, how much did your government pay to get your hostage out of Iraq.
It wasn't Hamadi, was it? Na......of course not.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/20/germany.militant/index.html
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(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/europe/12/20/germany.militant/long.hammadi.jpg)
you let him out for good behavior????
(http://www.geocities.com/americanmilitarycasualties/stethem.jpg)
just 23 (http://www.geocities.com/americanmilitarycasualties/stethem.html)
yep, we see how serious some are against terrorism...
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The thing that struck me when reading the article is, and this was a mini-epiphany for me, that there are definately americ citizens within the united states that have a deeply vested interest in a total political and military failure in Iraq.
I can understand france, russia, germany.....having a national desire and in fact a political need to see america fail in and indeed see Iraqi democracy itself fail, but to have americans (like the author of the article I linked) clenching their fists and actively trying to further the potentiol for failure makes me very upset and further solidifies my contemp for the liberal socialist elitist left wing politicos in my country.
Good news: Iraq had a national vote and is on its way to a constitutional government.
Bad news: Iraq is disintegrating
But the thing I appreciate, and the reason I posted the link, is that we all have access to the full menu of news and opinions, and we should read and understand the good with the bad. The truth with the falsehoods...the half truths and partial distortions...the spin and the non spin.
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Originally posted by Yeager
germany.....having a national desire and in fact a political need to see america fail
...and seconds later you write this...
we should read and understand the good with the bad. The truth with the falsehoods...the half truths and partial distortions...the spin and the non spin.
..how true.
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..how true.
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You would say Germany has no political or financial interest in a failed american mission in Iraq?
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/europe/12/20/germany.militant/long.hammadi.jpg)
you let him out for good behavior????
(http://www.geocities.com/americanmilitarycasualties/stethem.jpg)
just 23 (http://www.geocities.com/americanmilitarycasualties/stethem.html)
yep, we see how serious some are against terrorism...
Sickening.
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You know, maybe a split Iraq would be a good thing. Three countries, a pro western Kurdistan. A weakened and small Sunni area and a *****e (edit: shia) area. None of them strong enough to threaten anyone. We wait and see.
If that is the democratic wish of the people then so be it. Whether we like it or not. A lot of people have died so that the Iraqis would have the freedom to choose. You can't make them choose what we would like them for them.
Note on edit: I find it really annoying that *****e is considered a swear word. It's effing ridiculous.
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the problem with a split iraq is that the sunnis would have the dry useless interior. The north and the south have the oil fields.
Under such a plan to split Iraq into three smaller countries representing the three basic populations of todays Iraq, the sunnis would have transitioned from the all powerful brutal and wealthy minority to the simple dirtbag poor minority. The sunnis dont like this concept and are actively engaged in a insurgency to try and prevent that from happening.
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Why don't we just rename Iraq. If we change it to Kaliphornya the population will start to shift almost immediately from all the illegal immigration..............
For the sarcasm imnpaired. Yes that IS sarcasm.:rolleyes:
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I am curious about something.
You folks from other countries who do NOT have people serving in Iraq.
Why do you care?
How has our being in Iraq effected you and your life other then to give excuse to complain about the US being there?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I am curious about something.
You folks from other countries who do NOT have people serving in Iraq.
Why do you care?
How has our being in Iraq effected you and your life other then to give excuse to complain about the US being there?
Same logic... why should Americans care about the Iraqi people?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Same logic... why should Americans care about the Iraqi people?
Oil
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We don't need them for that.
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Originally posted by Sandman
We don't need them for that.
Yeah, you probably can't get more than a quart or two from each one, and the energy cost of rendering is prohibitive.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeah, you probably can't get more than a quart or two from each one, and the energy cost of rendering is prohibitive.
I dunno they look pretty greasy to me.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeah, you probably can't get more than a quart or two from each one, and the energy cost of rendering is prohibitive.
I expect the resident greenhouse gas and oil expert to be along shortly to review the fallacy in such an operation. (He should be to the second chapter by now :) )
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Originally posted by storch
I dunno they look pretty greasy to me.
nah, the SE FL cuban pop would produce much more oil/better quality & would help the crime rate, prison crowding down there too...
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Originally posted by Eagler
nah, the SE FL cuban pop would produce much more oil/better quality & would help the crime rate, prison crowding down there too...
really?
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Originally posted by Sandman
$300+ Billion and 2000+ American lives. Hope is pretty ****ing expensive.
hope is free....
stupidity is an expensive article ;)
let me add 30.000+ civilists
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
"Deserve" and "ready for" amount to the same thing in this case. His position is that the Iraqis should have remained under Saddam Hussien's tyranny. Justify THAT position and lower yourself to his level.
I just didnt get it... How it happen, that he was sutch a good ally 20 years ago, he was also permited to buy WMD from his allies..... and today .. today he is sutch a bad guy.
I dont understand even more, when i see "president" General Musharaf. He is exactly same kind of leader, as SH was, yet still ally of freedom spreading, terrorism annihilating US. He realy need old chity F16 to fight terrorist, so good ally will suply him those F16, even while he have nuclear weapons and not good (but improving) relations with his nuclear neigbour. While we can read, that dozen of people in Pakistan live in "bad condition" and on the next page we can read about Pakistania nuclear programme and on the third page we can read about antiterrorist campain in pakistan, nobody is wondering that he is General, who hijack the power 5 years ago.
Would you be so kind and "lower" me to the possition, where i can see, how "Saddam is bad and US good" and "good Musharaf with honest US ally" ?
Because right now i cant see diference between SH and GM well, while it seems to me, that we have some hypocrats on the scene.
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Originally posted by lada
Would you be so kind and "lower" me to the possition/B]
Much lower than you are and you can crawl under a snake. :)
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Originally posted by lada
I just didnt get it... How it happen, that he was sutch a good ally 20 years ago, he was also permited to buy WMD from his allies..... and today .. today he is sutch a bad guy.
I dont understand even more, when i see "president" General Musharaf. He is exactly same kind of leader, as SH was, yet still ally of freedom spreading, terrorism annihilating US. He realy need old chity F16 to fight terrorist, so good ally will suply him those F16, even while he have nuclear weapons and not good (but improving) relations with his nuclear neigbour. While we can read, that dozen of people in Pakistan live in "bad condition" and on the next page we can read about Pakistania nuclear programme and on the third page we can read about antiterrorist campain in pakistan, nobody is wondering that he is General, who hijack the power 5 years ago.
Would you be so kind and "lower" me to the possition, where i can see, how "Saddam is bad and US good" and "good Musharaf with honest US ally" ?
Because right now i cant see diference between SH and GM well, while it seems to me, that we have some hypocrats on the scene.
I think you should read about what lead up to the Iran/Iraq war first. You seem either terribly uneducated or seriously misinformed. Either that or you're an ex-communist.
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lada, its simple. hussein zigged when he should have zagged.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I think you should read about what lead up to the Iran/Iraq war first. You seem either terribly uneducated or seriously misinformed. Either that or you're an ex-communist.
Im not refering to Iran/Iraqi war. We both know, that Sadam wanted Iranian southwest oil fields. Most of those SW provinces has been inhabitted by Iranian Arabs at that time. Another important reason for SH was fear of islamic parties. Since it was clear, that Iran is powerful he were afraid of spreading of political islam from Iran to Iraq.
But back to my original theme... Would you be so kind and tell me, a little kommie, what makes Sadam bad and what makes general Musharraf good ?
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Originally posted by lada
But back to my original theme... Would you be so kind and tell me, a little kommie, what makes Sadam bad and what makes general Musharraf good ?
lada can i add a question?
what makes germany & france bad and what makes the UK good?
thank you.
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Originally posted by Yeager
lada, its simple. hussein zigged when he should have zagged.
i noted something like that.
But then you must agree, that all statements like "freedom for free and for all" is just political BS, isnt it ?
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
lada can i add a question?
what makes germany & france bad and what makes the UK good?
thank you.
I dont consider germany and france as "bad".
Im speaking about real persons real events and this time.
What makes general Musharraf, who hijack power 5 years ago, so good ally ?
He have WMD, he developed them secretly, he is dictator, but still ally of US.
tell me... what kind of information do i miss to consider it normal ?
Because if i compare it to Saddam, it doesnt fit somehow.
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Lada we know, ther are still many dictators out there, but
nobody care about it really, like most of us, because there is not one
single reason to engage, not one! except in Irak..the black gold.
B
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Originally posted by lada
But back to my original theme... Would you be so kind and tell me, a little kommie, what makes Sadam bad and what makes general Musharraf good ?
Musharraf is only slightly more mentally stable?
Doesnt have designs on invading his neighbors in spite of what many of the people in his country want (pakastan)
Doesnt have ambitions of dominating his entire region
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Do you know him Drediock? I'm just asking since you're so well informed on his plans and ambitions.
He took power from the democratically elected government of Pakistan in a military coup, so obviously he does have some ambitions of domination. Tell me since you know him so well, do you think his ambitions have been satisfied?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Musharraf is only slightly more mentally stable?
Doesnt have designs on invading his neighbors in spite of what many of the people in his country want (pakastan)
Doesnt have ambitions of dominating his entire region
Is there any other need for an dictators who are developing nuclear weapons to enjoy US political support ?
So .. can we probably agree that spreading of democracy and freedom is just political BS and ordinary people realize, that it is just some sort of propaganda for "stupid". Right ?
ANd now im going to search for SH planes to take over the region.... after 10 years of sanctions... Daaammm it has to be a cool project. Any links ?
Pakistan doesnt have design for invading into foreign country ?
ummmm did you ever hear about Kashmir ?
edit: (read from the end of document.)
http://www.ieer.org/comments/dsmt/kashhist.html
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lada.... take out one crazy muslim gold toilet seat, torturing a hole and the others start acting human...
you will see.
It is about will and what the region understands.... show we are willing to spill blood and throw billions at a problem and next time we mention we are not happy with a particular nutcase muslim country.... we will get that fruitcakes undivided attention..
it will all work out in the end.
you will see.
lazs
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Originally posted by Harry
Do you know him Drediock? I'm just asking since you're so well informed on his plans and ambitions.
He took power from the democratically elected government of Pakistan in a military coup, so obviously he does have some ambitions of domination. Tell me since you know him so well, do you think his ambitions have been satisfied?
Yea we had dinner in different places together just last week
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Originally posted by lada
So .. can we probably agree that spreading of democracy and freedom is just political BS and ordinary people realize, that it is just some sort of propaganda for "stupid". Right ?
My views on Iraq are well documented here