Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: tikky on December 21, 2005, 01:33:19 PM
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???
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cause "uber" is a German word and they think it should only apply to LW rides?
Just guessing :)
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Originally posted by tikky
???
Not really that they suck..
I would love them if I stayed in it for a month..
Hard to get used to those snap stalls. Not to mention the (cage effect with the cockpits)!:cry
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K/D ratio is not a measure of the plane, it's a measure of the person flying it. The irony is, the less people that fly a particular plane the higher its K/D will tend to be for the two following reasons:
1) Only the best and most dedicated pilots are flying that, presumably, weaker plane.
2) With smaller samplings the statistical Law of Averages doesn't kick in to an extent that would tend to average all planes out.
The fact that the LW planes are, at this point in the evolution of AH, weaker relative to the rest of the set means better people are flying them. Weaker players tend to gravitate toward the easiest planes, better players tend to gravitate toward the more challenging planes. Better players kill more and die less and weaker players kill less and die more, regardless of what plane they may choose to fly.
Zazen
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I think far too many people are wrapped up in the idea that the only way to "fight" involves holding their stick against the stop. The rest of us that know better continue to use the LW rides and enjoy them for what they are.
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Because they are not easy to fight in.
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Originally posted by Sable
I think far too many people are wrapped up in the idea that the only way to "fight" involves holding their stick against the stop. The rest of us that know better continue to use the LW rides and enjoy them for what they are.
I'm not even going to bother picking that one apart.
The LW planes have a better k/d because far fewer people fly them, and far more good sticks/vets fly 109's than sissyfires/LA LA's. The good sticks/vets offset the gagillion deaths the lemmings add to the tally more than the other rides because of the smaller total of 109 sorties. k/d is NOT an accurate means of comparing how good the fighters are.
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i think the best luft fighter in AH is 110. I can furball with it like a spit p47 ect and still land kills. this plane is more forgivable than 109/190
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but dont forget that people tend to use Boom and zoom only in most of the LW rides
not to mention that the most used LW planes besides the 110 are very fast
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High K/D in AH usually means that the plane so damn sucks only people who are already experienced in it ever give it a serious whirl.
Look at all the best MA planes - grossly overused, pathetic K/D.
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As the Luftwhines started early tonite in the MA, I hopped in a 109E and spent the night in it since I like Emils.
8 kills, 4 deaths. (yeah I know I'm a lousy pilot)
None of the kills were vulches. There was a big brawl between 21 and 22. As I was slower then most everything I couldn't out run anyone so it was turn and burn down low in the valleys.
Kills included a Spit V a Spit VIII, Spit IX and Spit 16 along with a Tiffie, Mustang, 190 and N1K.
I make no claims to be any good at this game, but the 109E at least seemed to do just fine down low in the furballs.
Once the cannon ran out and the MGs were left, it meant a lot more assists however. I had a ton of those :)
My last two deaths were trying to defend 19 as it was getting mobbed so I was outnumbered and out alted along with out run
It was great fun :)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
K/D ratio is not a measure of the plane, it's a measure of the person flying it. The irony is, the less people that fly a particular plane the higher its K/D will tend to be for the two following reasons:
1) Only the best and most dedicated pilots are flying that, presumably, weaker plane.
2) With smaller samplings the statistical Law of Averages doesn't kick in to an extent that would tend to average all planes out.
The fact that the LW planes are, at this point in the evolution of AH, weaker relative to the rest of the set means better people are flying them. Weaker players tend to gravitate toward the easiest planes, better players tend to gravitate toward the more challenging planes. Better players kill more and die less and weaker players kill less and die more, regardless of what plane they may choose to fly.
Zazen
Yup, Not saying I'm the best(I'm certainly not) but I agree. :D
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Originally posted by Guppy35
As the Luftwhines started early tonite in the MA,
Spitfire envy ;)
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Originally posted by Furball
Spitfire envy ;)
Hardly
Flying spits is like playing level 1 in connect the dots.
Preschool edition
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there is a 109 for every season, just have to know what time of year you are flying into before you choose one
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Hardly
Flying spits is like playing level 1 in connect the dots.
Preschool edition
well ive seen you fly about in la7s reasonably frequently. they're even worse, because you can run away whenever you like
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D-9s used to be able to do that too,although they couldn't maneuver much they had a chance. :D
Spit XVI our new niki.
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Originally posted by tikky
???
I have NO problem landed 3+ kills in an Emil or Friedrich.
Karaya
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The only thing you really see from people in LW planes is get to an altitude of about 20k and just BnZ you to death. I have seen some people LW that will come in low and turn but it is very rare.
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Hoarach,
it would depend very much on what you yourself fly in. If you favor a well turning plane, naturally the 109:s you meet will use BnZ. If you fly a faster and stiffer plane (hmm.. are there any stuffer ones?) then you could see a 109 turn fighting. Th efighting style should always depend on the situation, not on the pilot or on his plane alone.
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Originally posted by BlauK
Hoarach,
it would depend very much on what you yourself fly in. If you favor a well turning plane, naturally the 109:s you meet will use BnZ. If you fly a faster and stiffer plane (hmm.. are there any stuffer ones?) then you could see a 109 turn fighting. Th efighting style should always depend on the situation, not on the pilot or on his plane alone.
Good luck getting people to comprehend this concept, Blauk, believe me I've tried. Some just don't 'get it'. :huh
Zazen
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Could it be people fly LW planes are just high alt, wussie, running, cherry pickin dweebs?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by BlauK
Hoarach,
it would depend very much on what you yourself fly in. If you favor a well turning plane, naturally the 109:s you meet will use BnZ. If you fly a faster and stiffer plane (hmm.. are there any stuffer ones?) then you could see a 109 turn fighting. Th efighting style should always depend on the situation, not on the pilot or on his plane alone.
I think you speak to the underlying issue behind some of the Luftwhining. (Note I said some, not all)
Some folks are expecting the LW birds to turn with Spits. For the most part, in particular when things get slow, they don't win those fights.
That being said, I was always low and slow in the Emil last night and turn/stall fighting in it against Spits and the instability worked to my advantage as it did drop a wing fast and nose down inside the turns. I suppose I was flying it like a fly a Spit. It worked for me for what it's worth.
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Ive noticed really that Ive broaden the planes I fly a little bit by using the 51 for a change from my 38. LW planes run from my 38 so I took a 51 to see if it would change at all figuring that especially the 109 should be able to outmanuever the 51. No luck, the LW pilots still run.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Could it be people fly LW planes are just high alt, wussie, running, cherry pickin dweebs?:rolleyes:
NO, you are talking about FW-190!:D
109s (depending on what model) can still give u a fair fite.
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As much as i love my 109, its definatly not a turner.
Good speed, climbrate, guns make it amazing at give and go attacks.
Fair defense and menuverabilty make not suited for turn fights, but good for give and goes.
Bad view and Poor rudder make it horible for turn fights, but dont really effect anything else.
And dont call me a luft whiner, just saying but the plane does have some modeling probs.
... I dont use my 109 for high alt flights either, i leave that for my p51.
Sure pick on the germans because we own you.
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Originally posted by Numberz
Sure pick on the germans because we own you.
:rofl
Out of 80 deaths (excluding tanks and puff ack) Ive died only 5 times to German planes. Most of my deaths come from ostys, lgay7s, and spit 16s.
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Originally posted by Hoarach
:rofl
Out of 80 deaths (excluding tanks and puff ack) Ive died only 5 times to German planes. Most of my deaths come from ostys, lgay7s, and spit 16s.
That's likely due to the fact there's 20 times the number of Spit16's and Lgays in the air as LW stuff, it's just a matter of mathematical probabilities.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Hoarach
Ive noticed really that Ive broaden the planes I fly a little bit by using the 51 for a change from my 38. LW planes run from my 38 so I took a 51 to see if it would change at all figuring that especially the 109 should be able to outmanuever the 51. No luck, the LW pilots still run.
The P51 so owns Fw190s in anything resembling a turnfight it's not even funny. Those flaps on the pony are waaaaay more than a Fw190 can handle. If you want LW stuff to turnfight you should try a Typhoon or a Jug. I've rarely had a LW plane turn-down an offer to dance while in either one.
Zazen
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What has really killed 109s for me is the gunnery changes with AH2. I enjoyed flying them occassionally in AH1. Now, it's kinda pointless (no pun intended :)).
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Originally posted by Pooface
well ive seen you fly about in la7s reasonably frequently. they're even worse, because you can run away whenever you like
You have??
Tell me exactly when that was cause I dont even remember the last time I was even in an La7 let alone flown one frequently.
I think you may be suffering from a bad case of mistaken identity lol
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I find it quite laughable people who mostly fly overly generrous flap extending aircraft cvall the LW plane pilots etc wussies well, if they turned in on a dime or had any type of stability and cohesion in their flight characteristics they might, might give a fight.
Thing is more than likley the 190 and or 109 if not being escorted in a gaggle of spits and la7s won't do much. The fact that a Pony can run down a Dora Co E right now is quite laughable, even a maneuver of pulling up in a turn with two notches of flap being extended nose high, can run down said plane.
I mean if I weere in something other respectable planes like a P-47 in a 109 instead of being themselves escorted by the dweeb rides then they would know.
MOst of the people that are quick to throw the Luftwhine card don't even fly the LW planes themselves and don't know the capabilities of the aircraft in Game, the only plane that can sort of put out a fight are the 109s and the 190A-5, the 190A-8 if it doesn't maintain a siezable amount of High speed and altitude it won't come out of the fight, since neither can run, the Dora however, retains speed in vertical maneuvers slightly better than the 190A-8(A-5), and it cannot do jack of scheisse when it comes to maneuvering against the cluster of spitXVIs, so again fly the planes for one night try to make the ahem fights you say they run away from,is not because they can't fight(except for Nathbdp who has made a pact with the devil himself :D )
is because they aren't allowed to fight by the restraints of the current questionable FM.
Just my 50 cents
PS I'll keep "running" cherry pick and destroy Spitfires far below and get away as long as the FM is at it is :D
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Originally posted by Glasses
I find it quite laughable people who mostly fly overly generrous flap extending aircraft cvall the LW plane pilots etc wussies well, if they turned in on a dime or had any type of stability and cohesion in their flight characteristics they might, might give a fight.
It's always been this way. People who only fly planes that manuever very well have real legitimate contempt for people who choose to fly planes that do not manuever as well. The reason is, as you stated in not so many words, planes that do not manuever very well prey on planes that do manuever well by NOT turning with them. Needless to say that is very fustrating for the manueverable plane, they are more or less at the mercy of the faster, yet less manueverable plane. Faster planes are practically invulnerable to slower planes if they do not turn with them, slower planes are always somewhat vulnerable to faster planes regardless of what they do.
However, the reverse is not true. A more manueverable plane cannot force a less manueverable but faster plane to turn with him or even engage him. The faster plane can just disengage/re-engage at will (of course being called timid in the process). This again evokes vehement contempt from the slow, manuevering plane. The Fw190 vs. the SPitXVI is a prime example of such a match-up. Never do you hear a Fw190 (insert favorite speed ride here) complaining that a more manueverable plane is using that manueverability to advantage (turning). But, constantly we hear people in very manueverable planes pissin' n' moanin' about faster planes using their speed to advantage.
The simple fact is not everyone wants to fly a SpitXVI or the like, thank God, enough do already. Alot of people 'get off' on flying and becoming proficient at the lesser used rides, there's a certain satisfaction in being good at something few if any other people are good at. Complaining about a faster, less manueverable plane like the Fw190 using speed and altitude to its advantage is rediculous, it's as rediculous as whining and complaining about a manueverable yet slower Spitfire using it's turnrate to its advantage (which I have never heard anyone do once, ever in 15 years).
There's a really simple rule of thumb here:
The more nimble the plane you fly the fewer planes there are that are going to want to turnfight/engage you. Therefore, the more you are going to get cherry picked, BnZ'd, gang-banged and run-down.
So, if you want more turnfights or fights in general from LW planes or any other mediocre plane it's really simple. Fly a plane the typical LW pilot may feel he has a fighting chance to beat. I'll give you a free hint to get you started, it sure as hell isn't the La7 or Spitfire. Ironically, the more poorly the plane you fly manuevers the more 1 vs 1s you will get. In fact, you will get more fights period. Flying an uber-plane, especially an uber-manuevering plane, such as the Spit, P38, P51 or Niki, is the worst possible thing you could do if you are really looking for frequent, good, relatively even fights. So, if you 1 vs. 1 cowboys, always crowing about your superlative DA talent, are for real and not completely FoS as I strongly suspect some of you are, put the Spit, La7 etc. permanently in the garage, grab a mediocre manuevering plane and get your wet dream of being engaged by just about any plane you may happen to come across in the MA.
Zazen
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S I'll keep "running" cherry pick and destroy Spitfires far below and get away as long as the FM is at it is
Kind of reminds of the WBs LW plane set. Over there they keep playing with the center of gravity to ensure thst the LW couldn't much more then 'fly fast and straight'.
Fröhliche Weihnacht,
Wotan Mit Uns!!!!
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iv been comparing ALL WWII flite sims lately and german planes in IL-2/FB seem to be a bit more generous...
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I find your signature much more relevent than your post Zazen. It pretty much sims it up.
As for the rest of it, all you need to do is listen to ch.200 and hear all the high quality debate to realise that its simply a name calling game. Everybody HOs and vulches, and gang bangs, yet they all deny that they do it more than the other side does, and so it goes. The players doing the mud slinging are never flying P-40Bs or A6M2s though? thats the strange thing, eh?
"My 1944 ride isnt as dweeby as your 1944 ride" :rofl
MA psycobable. Pffft. God help us.
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Originally posted by Glasses
I fly in a leather thong and I still suck
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Originally posted by Zazen13
The more nimble the plane you fly the fewer planes there are that are going to want to turnfight/engage you. Therefore, the more you are going to get cherry picked, BnZ'd, gang-banged and run-down.
[/B]
UhHuh. Yes, definitly. Also not always and entirely true.
I favor one of the nimblest fighter in the game. Fortunatly its also one of the weakest that, for most pilots, has a 'easy kill' sign on its wing. So i *do* get a good turnfight every now and then.
I have to admit though, that my frustration limit is usually used to its brim by one-pass-extend-forever guys. All i can do about those is take a deep breath, say to myself 'this is what you choose when hopping in a Hurri1' and look for another con, praying its not a bomber ;).
Then there are the really great fights against 'top notch' players. They are usually equally frustrating, cause they do the smart thing and stay out of range of my 303s by exploiting their speed advantage. Those fights usually boil down to who makes the first mistake (where mine are usually deadly and the enemy has a good chance of surviving his). I love those fights.
What i want to say is: theres usually four groups of pilots
- HO and extend forever
- start a turnfight with their PonyB against my Hurr1 (predictable outcome)
- smart flyers as stated above, that engage and extend at will, never going too far, keeping me busy in my evasives
- those that engage me, and after a few passes realise that im not the easy kill they thought i would be and then go their merry way, ignoring me entirely
Yes, i can entirely feel for the Spit pilot that would like the LW to turn with him. Smart LW wont ever do that for a lenghty time.
So, fly whaterver plane suits you, fly it in wichever way suit you. Youll get called names any ways. :)
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I like LW planes very much.
But say what you want there are 2 main failures with LW planes.
First the acceleration when going straight down on the deck is not what it should be. It seems that any other plane has a better acceleration in AH than a LW plane. In WB 2, AW and IL2 I made some other experience.
But maybe they are all wrong and only HTC is right - rofl.
Second most of the german fighter had combat flaps. Where are they at AH??? Using combat flaps isn't easy but it helps very much in turnfights. Ofcourse I lost sometimes my wings when using combat flaps in IL2. But a YAK cant' outturn me in a 109-G6 in IL2 when i use combat flaps at the right way.
But however even in AH are the german planes quiet good. - :lol If you use as a bnz. As long as you dont go for turnfights on the deck with LALA's and Spits.:O
And only weak player need allways the best planes. rofl lmao
Nightfire
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Originally posted by tikky
???
K/D say nothing, but the Lw planes are modeled unfair,like bricks!
watch the way P38s are modeled, super macho planes in AH, have better flight caracteristics than 90% of Lw.
but in reality ,acording with the statements of pilots , they were eassy kills , no match for 109s/190s, that's why were used mostly for jabo on west front
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hmmm..the 38 had massive mechanical problems in europe due to weather...38 was far more than a match for any german ride from what Ive read..ya know that whole "fork tailed devil" thing....
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Nice post Schatzi ;)
I have to admit though, that my frustration limit is usually used to its brim by one-pass-extend-forever guys. All i can do about those is take a deep breath, say to myself 'this is what you choose when hopping in a Hurri1' and look for another con, praying its not a bomber
Well, sometimes happen that a foe does one pass and then extend forever becouse a high bogey is incoming or an enemy base with T/Os is too close. Engagements in the main are seldom 1vs1 and it is quite annoying to be cought with pants down while "hitting&climbing" on a slow but deadly Hurry ;)
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You can't draw direct comparisons many times. Statements to the effect that 38's were easy prey for the LW don't tell the whole story. At 30,000 feet where much of the fighting was. The early 38's had many supercharger problems. Also the 38's encountered compressibility issues. At 30k a 109 or 190 could split S and dive away and the 38 would be reluctant to follow for fear of not being able to pull out of the dive.
Down low the (where most combat in the MA is) the 38's made a much better showing.
Also there was the issue of identification. The 38 has a very distinctive shape. LW pilots had little trouble IDing them from greater distances. Which of course isn't a factor in AH.
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Originally posted by gatt
Nice post Schatzi ;)
Well, sometimes happen that a foe does one pass and then extend forever becouse a high bogey is incoming or an enemy base with T/Os is too close. Engagements in the main are seldom 1vs1 and it is quite annoying to be cought with pants down while "hitting&climbing" on a slow but deadly Hurry ;)
That's a great point. Situational Awareness especially bad SA is very, very subjective. I have rarely heard two people re-hashing an engagement on channel 200 have even a similiar recollection of the overall tactical picture. More often than not one guy was aware of tactically relavent factors the other was entirely oblivious to.
As you said, people flying tactically with some kind of E advantage are not going to be willing to blow that E for just one kill if it's likely it will take so long doing so that proximate enemy will then be in a position to attack him with advantage. Instead they will let that one guy go in favor of consolidating position and advantage to prepare for additional incoming enemy. The single most important factor in the MA is killing quickly. The longer it takes you to kill the more likely it is you are going to get, cherry picked, bounced/BnZ'd, gang-banged or run-down. That's the only real tool a turnfighter has against an E fighter with an advantage, make the engagement last so long the E fighter is forced to break-off or be put in a compromising position by himself or friendlies due to a degrading relative E state.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Then there are the really great fights against 'top notch' players. They are usually equally frustrating, cause they do the smart thing and stay out of range of my 303s by exploiting their speed advantage. Those fights usually boil down to who makes the first mistake (where mine are usually deadly and the enemy has a good chance of surviving his). I love those fights.
- smart flyers as stated above, that engage and extend at will, never going too far, keeping me busy in my evasives
- those that engage me, and after a few passes realise that im not the easy kill they thought i would be and then go their merry way, ignoring me entirely
Yes, i can entirely feel for the Spit pilot that would like the LW to turn with him. Smart LW wont ever do that for a lenghty time.
Nice explanation of smart flying. When engaging more manueverable opponents, the name of the game is shooting opportunities. The less manueverable plane must use an E advantage to produce shooting opportunities. Obviously, the better he is at Energy Fighting the more shooting opportunities he will be able to produce before he is forced to disengage because E states have equalized to the point he can no longer produce viable shooting opportunities while still maintaining seperation. Therefore aim and firepower are extremely critical assets for the Energy Fighter so as to exploit those shooting opportunities to their maximum potential.
Zazen
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Originally posted by ghi
K/D say nothing, but the Lw planes are modeled unfair,like bricks!
watch the way P38s are modeled, super macho planes in AH, have better flight caracteristics than 90% of Lw.
but in reality ,acording with the statements of pilots , they were eassy kills , no match for 109s/190s, that's why were used mostly for jabo on west front
Quotes from some 370th FG P38 pilots from combat reports made in the summer of 44. They were flying those fighter bomber runs down low, ala AH and had to deal with being bounced with 109s. I think they are enlightening regarding how the 38 handled under the circumstances. The last one in particular is an old fashioned 1 v 1. Note his last comment as well. And these were relative newcombers to the 38 having come overseas in P47s and transitioned to the 38 in May of 44:
Lt.Richard Berry 370th Combat report June 14, 1944
“I was leading Yellow flight and we had completed our mission and were returning home at 3000 feet. We had lost our flight leader in clouds and haze after an identification pass at friendly A/C. We had just gone on instruments and were about to enter the overcast when we were bounced from 4 O’Clock by four Me 109s which had just broken out of the overcast. Yellow 2 called for me to break right into the E/A. The entire flight broke and I found myself after a half-turn of a Lufberry, turning inside the lead E/A. I fired a four second burst from 200 yards at approximately 20 degrees deflection and observed strikes on the engine. The E/A started to smoke and leveled off. I fell into trail behind him and fired a 6-second burst at 0 Degrees deflection and again observed strikes, this time on the fuselage and right wing root. Fire broke out and enveloped the entire right wing root as the E/A disappeared into cloud. I did not follow him because I was low on fuel. The other E/A disappeared into the clouds after the initial break. We all used our maneuver flaps and had no difficulty in out turning the E/A. I saw no one bail out from the plane I hit and in my opinion the pilot was hit and at least wounded on my first burst because he leveled off and flew at a very slight climb.”
Captain Paul Sabo, 370th FG July 31, 1944
“I was leading Blue Flight circling the target area giving Red Flight Top Cover as they were dive bombing the target. Circling above us at about 12,000 feet were 12 Me 109s. I kept watching them; then 8 of them half rolled and got behind my flight. I gave the order to jettison our bombs and break. I dropped flaps and started in a tight Lufberry. When I had completed one turn I was alone, and at that time I saw an Me 109 in a vertical turn coming in front of me so I started firing at him at a 90 degree deflection shot. He flew right into the pattern and I saw strikes on him from nose to tail. The plane seemed to shudder and slow down. I was about 200 yards when I started to fire. The Me 109 then made a 90 degree turn to the left and started to climb as if he was going to loop. I followed him, closing to about 100 yards, fired and saw strikes all over his canopy, fuselage and tail surfaces. As he was about at the top of his loop and almost on his back, I saw what looked like his canopy come off, as the plane seemed to hang there. It looked like I had wounded the pilot during the first 90 degree deflection shot and he was rolling it over on his back to jettison his canopy and bail out.
About that time I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an Me 109 on my tail. I dropped flaps and turned into him. He half rolled and went down. As I rolled out I saw an Me 109 coming down in front of me. I opened up again and gave him a 90-degree deflection shot. He ran into my pattern and I saw strikes all over the plane. I followed him and kept firing from directly behind him, seeing strikes on his tail surfaces. Then he proceeded to go down in a wild dive from about 5000 feet. I looked back in my mirror again, because all during this time I was still alone. My flight had left me. I saw another Me 109 coming in on my tail. I dropped flaps, leveled out and turned into him. He automatically went into a steep climb and I lost him in the sun. When I looked I saw no more enemy and called my Flight to join me.”
Lt. Royal Madden from the same Flight and same fight, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
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Herb "Stub" Hatch, describes the mission from his vantage point of Cragmore Green 3, the element leader of the 4th Flight. 71st FS, 1st FG June 10, 1944
"We were briefed that morning very early. We got up around 0400, had some breakfast and went down to Group Headquarters for briefing. When we walked in and sat down it was apparent that something unusual was in the air because of all the Group brass in attendance. When they went to the map and drew the line to Ploesti all of us kind of went 'Uh, oh.' And then
when they told us what the mission was, there was absolute silence and
utter disbelief on the part of all of us who were going to fly over 600
miles to surprise the Germans in order to dive bomb the Ramano-Americano
refinary.
In the course of the breifing it came out that the 82nd (FG) were the ones
to do the bombing. We were selected for fighter escort. I can't
adequately describe the sense of relief that went through the gathering
when we found out that we weren't going to be the ones carrying a 1000
pound bomb on one side of the airplane and a belly tank on the other - or
that we'd be the ones to dry and dive into that unbelievable flak.
Take off at 0505 went as scheduled. We rendezvoused with the 82nd and
headed for the coast of Yugoslavia. Anyone who has flown formation at low
level knows the difficulty in keeping a squadron of 16 aircraft together,
let alone three squadrons. Nonetheless we hit our IP right on schedule
south of Bucharest. At that point we began our turn north, dropped our
belly tanks and were supposed to begin our climb to altitude to cover the
82nd. As we completed our turn however, we flew right over an enemy
airfield and in the airfield pattern were four or five Dornier 217 bombers.
Our Squadron Leader, First Lieutenant John Shepard turned in and went
after them and the three flights followed him (Blue flight was by this time
cut off) The Dorniers didn't last long. I only wasted some ammo by firing
at one of them at the tail end of the little fight.
At this point we were only 250-300 feet off the ground. As we pulled up
slightly to turn back north again somebody hollered, 'Cragmore Break left
for Chrissake!' I looked to my left and there was a whole flock of FW 190s
headed in from 10 O'clock high.
Our entire squadron broke to the left. As I continued around in my sharp
turn a lone 190 came out of nowhere and pulled right across in front of me.
He was so close -fifty to seventy five yards away- that all I could see in
my ring sight was the belly of his fuselage and the wing roots. I opened
fire with all four 50-caliber machine guns and the 20mm cannon and I just
damn near blew him in half. That saved my neck because when I rolled out
to shoot at the 190 I looked to my right and here comes another bunch of
190s from my 2 0'clock.
There were four 190s in the lead. I did the only thing I could do. I
turned sharply to my right, pulled up and fired again. The leader was
150-250 yards away, nearly head on and slightly to my left. I set the lead
190 on fire with a burst that went through the engine, left side of the
cockpit and the wing root. The 190 rolled to its right and passed me on my
left. I didn't see him crash but my gun camera film showed the fire and my
wingman Lt. Joe Morrison, confirmed that he crashed. Unfortunately the
other three 190s in that flight went right over my head and down on the
tails of Green flight leader and his wingman. Both were shot down.
As I continued my turn around to my right, my wingman stayed with me and I
saw another 190 right up behind one of my tentmates, Joe Jackson flying as
Cragmore white 4. I closed in on that one from about his five o'clock and
tried to shoot his canopy off from about 100 yards, but I was too late to
save Joe. By then the 190 had set Jackson's plane on fire. Joe's plane
rolled over and went in and he was killed. I finally did get a burst into
the cockpit area and the 190 followed Joe right into the ground.
I was still turning to the right, going quite slowly by then, because I had
my combat flaps down. I turned maybe another 90 degrees to my right when I saw on of our 38s coming head on with a 190 on his tail. We were still
only around 300 feet and the P38 passed over me by fifty-seventy five feet.
I pulled up my nose and opened fire on the trailing 190 from a distance of
about 150-200 yards. He kept coming head on and I shot off the bottom half of his engine. He nosed down still shooting at me and I had to dump the
yoke hard to miss him. He was burning when he went over me, by not more
then three feet and part of his right wing knocked about three inches off
the top of my left rudder.
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As the 190 went over my head I saw three more making a pass at me from my left. I turned so fast I lost Joe Morrison. I missed my shot that time
but when these three went over me they went after Morrison. I saw three
190s diving on another 38. I snap shot at the leader from about 90 degree
deflection. I hit his left wing and shredded the aileron. He fell off on
his wing and went in. He was so low there was no chance for him to
recover. I kept on going around to my left and shot at the second one with
was going away from me on my left. I hit him, but I am not sure if he went
in. I know I knocked a bunch of pieces off his cowling and fuselage but I
didn't have time to see what was happening to him.
I looked to my 2 o'clock and here comes another 190 right at me. It was
too late for me to turn. I just shut my eyes and hunched down in the
cockpit. I thought I had bought the farm right there. But he missed me,
he never even hit my ship. I think he missed me because I was going so
slowly. He overestimated my speed and was overleading me. I started to
turn his way and when he went behind me I continued on around. There was
another one out there so I closed in on him. I took aim, fired but my guns
only fired about ten rounds and quit. I was out of ammo. I damaged him a
bit but he flew away.
I cannot over emphasize what a melee that was. There were at least twelve
P38s in that little area, all of them at very low altitude. Somewhere
between 25 and 30 190s were also there. None of us were at more then 200
or 300 feet and some were quite a bit lower. The topography was kind of a
little hollow with hills on each side. It was by far the wildest melee I
saw in sixty odd combat missions I flew. I heard one guy who had been
wounded pretty badly, scream until he went in. It was a wild, wild few
minutes. And a few minutes is all it was. According to the mission report
from our debriefing the whole fight took something like three to six
minutes. I had no inkling of elapsed time while it was going on. I was too
damned busy trying to stay alive.
When I woke up to the fact that I was out of ammunition, 600 miles into
enemy territory and all alone, I broke out of the area and went looking for
some company. In only a few minutes I found one of the other planes in my
squadron headed in my general direction. I called the pilot, Carl
Heonshell, on the radio and we joined up. About that time I heard my
wingman Joe Morrison hollering for some help. He was on single engine,
pretty badly shot up and would someone please come help him. So Hoenshell
and I turned back to look for Joe. We finally found him down around 200
feet. After we got him headed in our direction we started to climb out of
there to the west.
Joe's airplane looked like a lace doily. The two 190s that I had not had
time to turn into had gone over the top of me and down onto Joe's tail
because he had broken right when I had broken left. Joe's ship was flying
but just barely. Hoenshell and I were both out of ammo. The three of us
tried to make ourselves as small as possible and headed west. Four or five
minutes later another P38 joined with us. It as Lt. John Allen, a 94th
Squadron pilot. We hoped he had some ammunition. When we called to ask we found his radio was out and we couldn't talk to him.
Another 25-30 miles west just as we were gaining some altitude we ran into
a bunch of flak. Unfortunately Morrison became separated from us again
because he couldn't maneuver, as quickly to get out of the flak, so we had
to turn around and go back and get him again. We nursed Joe along for a
long, long time. Finally we got out of Rumania and into Yugoslavia and had
climbed to about 12,000 feet. We were S-ing back and forth over Joe
because he couldn't fly as fast as we could on his single engine. As I was
turning from one of our S's I spotted 6 Me109s about 8 0'clock. I hollered
to Hoenshell "Bogies high at 8' o'clock!" He saw them too and cautioned.
"Hold it, hold it, Joe hit the deck." Joe didn't lose any time. He stuck
his nose down and headed for the ground.
Car, Allen and I held the turn ad best we could and when the 109s broke
formation and came at us from 6 o'clock we turned into them hoping to scare
them off by looking like we were ready for a fight, but they didn't scare
worth a damn. (This with no ammo) When Hoenshell, who was leading hollered on the radio, "Hit the deck Hatch!" I didn't waste any time doing just that. I rolled my airplane over on its back and split-essed out of there.
One 109 was chasing me with a couple of others going after Hoenshell, but I
don't know where the others went. There was an undercast beneath us and I
didn't have the faintest idea where the mountains were-Yugoslavia is full
of them-but there was no choice at this point. The Me109 was chasing me
and I had nothing left to fight with so I went through that undercast so
fast I didn't even see it. I was hitting close to 600 mph when I came
through into the bottom into a valley between two high ridges. The Lord
sure was with me that day.
I kept going. When I was sure I'd lost the 190 I pulled back up over the
overcast and started looking around for Hoenshell, Allen or Morrison,
anybody. I heard Joe hollering for help but my fuel level was getting down
to the point where I couldn't afford any longer to turn around and go back.
I continued on toward Foggia.
When I landed back at home base I was the first member of our squadron to
return from the mission. It was noon and my elapsed time was 6 hours 55
minutes. I don't think I had enough gas to go around again if I hadn't
been able to land on my first approach. There was quite a welcoming
committee at the revetment when I parked the aircraft. Shortly after I
landed Cragmore Blue flight came in, all four of them. They hadn't been in
the fight at all. Much later that evening, long after debriefing and after
we seven survivors had imbibed a bit of the medicinal alcohol that the
flight surgeon had been kind enough to put out, who should come wandering
in but Joe Morrison, my wingman. He had gotten that lace doily across the
Adriatic but had to dump it on the field at Bari."
Sadly Carl Hoenshell was shot down and died of wounds the next day. The
1st FG lost 14 P38s that day and the 82nd lost 9 in that one of a kind
experimental attack on Ploesti with P38 dive bombers
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I cant believe he maligned our beloved plane Dan:)
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Great stories to read guys.
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The one Silat quoted, actually involved IAR 80s of the Rumanian AF. This was the second Ploesti raid. Low level 38 Fighter bombers June of 44.
The 370th guy out flying a 109 with the 500 pounders still on his Lightning says something though I think about the ability of the 38J down low.
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Fork tailed devil FYI was the name given by the German air transports in the mediterrean. Since they were hopelessly outeverything in their journey from N Africa to Main Land Europe. It wasn't however the name given by the German Fighter pilots to the aircraft. As those transports fell in droves being intercepted by longer ranged P-38s :D
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The one Silat quoted, actually involved IAR 80s of the Rumanian AF. This was the second Ploesti raid. Low level 38 Fighter bombers June of 44.
The 370th guy out flying a 109 with the 500 pounders still on his Lightning says something though I think about the ability of the 38J down low.
Dan the Luftberries will never stop :)
Here is a different and longer version of Hatchs story with the IAR 80 correction..Blackest Day ...............
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200312/ai_n9310834/pg_2
IAR 80
The I.A.R. 80 was Romania's best indigenously produced fighter of World War Two. First test flown in late 1938 or early 1939 by pilot Dimitru "Pufi" Popescu, it entered service in 1942 and remained in front-line use until 1944.
The manufacturer was Industria Aeronautica Romana {I.A.R.}, based in Brasov in central Romania. Formed in 1925 under state control, the firm drew upon the experience of licence-building many aircraft and engines including the Potez 25, Moraine-Saulnier 35, Fleet 10-G, and a pair of Polish PZL fighters, the PZL P.11 and P.24. The I.A.R. 80 shared the PZL P.24e's tail, rear fuselage and engine design, the rest was all-new. Work began on the I.A.R. 80 in late 1937, the open cockpit prototype was fitted with the 940 hp. I.A.R. K14-III C36 engine which was similar to the Gnome-Rhone 14K Mistral Major. After the initial flight trials the more powerful I.A.R. K14-1000a powerplant was installed and the wing span, area and length were slightly increased.
The I.A.R. 80's flying characteristics were reported to be excellent, highly maneuverable with heavy firepower. A pressurized cockpit was provided and there were several variants, the I.A.R. 81 was a dive-bomber and long-range fighter. Production ceased in January 1943. The I.A.R. factory in Brasov was heavily damaged by Allied bombers in April-May 1944. In 1950 the Aircraft Repairing Shops {ARMV} in Bucharest remanufactured a number of I.A.R. 80's into a two-seat trainer version, the I.A.R. 80 D.C., in the Pipera Industrial Complex. The trainer retained the original's excellent aerodynamic qualities.
The fighter was deployed on home defence in the Bucharest and Ploesti areas as well as in the attack role on the Eastern front during 1942-3. It was sometimes mistaken by Allied pilots for the Focke-Wulf Fw-190. A number of I.A.R. 80's were scrambled against the well-publicized USAAF mission to bomb the oil refineries at Ploesti, Romania on 1 August 1943. The B-24s of Ninth Bomber Command took very heavy losses from flak, fighters {Bf-109s and I.A.R. 80s} and navigational errors. The Ploesti raids of July 9 and 15, 1944 were met by about 25 I.A.R.80 sorties. After World War Tzwo, the Russians shipped home the entire I.A.R. factory and all aircraft from Brasov, as "war reparations". There was even a joke around, at that time: Do you know the Principle of Lavoisiev? Nothing is lost, everything is transported.
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I never understood why they were willing to sacrafice so many in a risky, long-ranged, low altitude attack for Ploesti. I understand the need to damage oil storage and refineries and their infrastructure, but at the expense of so many highly trained air crews?
Zazen
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WTF USAAF fighters were massacered by pre-WWII IAR fighters????
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for 190s
I think what's causing 190s to behave erratically at low speed turning/manuver is that its ailerons VIBRATE and it causes stalling at hi speed. Yes 190's ailerons is that sensitive. It's a big turn off for those who want to dogfight using fw-190
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I never understood why they were willing to sacrafice so many in a risky, long-ranged, low altitude attack for Ploesti. I understand the need to damage oil storage and refineries and their infrastructure, but at the expense of so many highly trained air crews?
Zazen
I had a Spit XII pilot tell me one time that by late 44-45 they were running out of things for the pilots to do in some ways. He was on XVIs by that point and was shot down to become a POW dive bombing sub pens with 500 pounders. He said there was no way they were going to damage those pens at all. He felt like they were just giving them something to do to keep them busy.
He was kinda bitter about it.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I had a Spit XII pilot tell me one time that by late 44-45 they were running out of things for the pilots to do in some ways. He was on XVIs by that point and was shot down to become a POW dive bombing sub pens with 500 pounders. He said there was no way they were going to damage those pens at all. He felt like they were just giving them something to do to keep them busy.
He was kinda bitter about it.
I'd be bitter too. It's one thing to have 'make-work' projects in an office, it's another to have them in war. Those guys who died for next to no reason left behind widows, children and families, what a waste...
Zazen
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I'd be bitter too. It's one thing to have 'make-work' projects in an office, it's another to have them in war. Those guys who died for next to no reason left behind widows, children and families, what a waste...
Sounds like a war to me.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Sounds like a war to me.
Dying to achieve a vital military objective is war. Dying to keep the brass entertained is almost sadistic murder.
Zazen
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Originally posted by 1K3
WTF USAAF fighters were massacered by pre-WWII IAR fighters????
The MA needed the IAR-81c more than three more Spits and more 109's. The IAR was an exceptional craft that was more than capable of besting ANY Allied craft. When first encountered, this very plane was mistaken for a FW-190.
I have tried to lobby 3 years for it's introduction into the MA.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I never understood why they were willing to sacrafice so many in a risky, long-ranged, low altitude attack for Ploesti. I understand the need to damage oil storage and refineries and their infrastructure, but at the expense of so many highly trained air crews?
Zazen
Ploesti's demise was the straw the broke the Nazi's back. The Scharhorst raid with Swordfish was by far worse. Watching our guest speaker (Curval's Fairey Swordfish pilot) nearly come to tears and remain silent for almost ten seconds was an experience I will never forget. I was hoping noone would ask him that question, but someone did. His reply from the silence to his ending of the speech is ingrained in my mind forever. What those guys were "expected to do" was larger than "Cast Iron Balls", more like Titanium Balls.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Silat
As the 190 went over my head I saw three more making a pass at me from my left. I turned so fast I lost Joe Morrison. I missed my shot that time
but when these three went over me they went after Morrison. I saw three
190s diving on another 38. I snap shot at the leader from about 90 degree
deflection. I hit his left wing and shredded the aileron. He fell off on
his wing and went in. He was so low there was no chance for him to
recover. I kept on going around to my left and shot at the second one with
was going away from me on my left. I hit him, but I am not sure if he went
in. I know I knocked a bunch of pieces off his cowling and fuselage but I
didn't have time to see what was happening to him.
I looked to my 2 o'clock and here comes another 190 right at me. It was
too late for me to turn. I just shut my eyes and hunched down in the
cockpit. I thought I had bought the farm right there. But he missed me,
he never even hit my ship. I think he missed me because I was going so
slowly. He overestimated my speed and was overleading me. I started to
turn his way and when he went behind me I continued on around. There was
another one out there so I closed in on him. I took aim, fired but my guns
only fired about ten rounds and quit. I was out of ammo. I damaged him a
bit but he flew away.
I cannot over emphasize what a melee that was. There were at least twelve
P38s in that little area, all of them at very low altitude. Somewhere
between 25 and 30 190s were also there. None of us were at more then 200
or 300 feet and some were quite a bit lower. The topography was kind of a
little hollow with hills on each side. It was by far the wildest melee I
saw in sixty odd combat missions I flew. I heard one guy who had been
wounded pretty badly, scream until he went in. It was a wild, wild few
minutes. And a few minutes is all it was. According to the mission report
from our debriefing the whole fight took something like three to six
minutes. I had no inkling of elapsed time while it was going on. I was too
damned busy trying to stay alive.
When I woke up to the fact that I was out of ammunition, 600 miles into
enemy territory and all alone, I broke out of the area and went looking for
some company. In only a few minutes I found one of the other planes in my
There was no FW 190 over Popesti-Leordeni that day, only thid guys:
IAR-81C's of Gr 6 Vinatoare (http://www.worldwar2.ro//arr/g6vt.htm)
The 6'th fighter group lost 4 IAR-81's that day two in midair colision and shot down 14 P-38's.
The IAR-80/81 does look like a FW:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/iar80.jpg)
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People like to point to an event that happened between planes and say
"AH HA. See this plane performed better or did this better or that better or was no match for because X plane shot down y number of z planes at such and such an event" .
But that isnt necessarily a true indicator of how good, or bad a plane performed.
ALOT had to due with the quality and training of pilots themselves.
this probably holds true particularly later in the war when the german pilots were more green and less well trained then their allied counterparts.
Even in the game here. a good and experianced P40 pilot can give away alt,E and position and still make short work of a newbie in a spit16
I sometimes question "Was such and such a plane really that good. or were their opponents that bad?"
Often I come to the conclusion that their opponents were that bad.
Take the P51 here for example.
IMO Either its the most grossly undermodeled plane in the game.
Or it isnt all it was made out to be IRL.
I dont know about the rest of you but the Pony isnt one of those planes I particularly worry about in the game. Unless it has a pretty decent stick at the controls I usually view them as a dead target before I ever pull the trigger on them.
I just hope HTC doesnt take too much of the stories of these planes to heart as much as they take the data available on them as far as flight charactoristics are concerned
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For those of us that favor NON T&B planes the 190s are a nice ride. If all you want to do is "Fightertown Furballs" there is no place for the 190. It is a plane that can engage 1v1 if you maintain some E & use your climb & roll advantages. I prefer them now (speaking only from 7 mos. AH experience) along with the C205 because I have a chance against the sharpshooter titanium buffs as well as any fighter IF you chose to maintain your E & SA.
This is certainly an opinionated post for a newbie!LOL
-MI- {Shillelagh}
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DREDIOCK
I pretty much agree with you. Thinkin the pilot, the training, and NUMBERS!
The allies had such numbers!
The Sherman tanks were EXPECTED to lose 3 for 1 against the panzers.
Thinkin there was a similar mindset RE the planes.
Ya the pony, the jug, etc. had some good flight charactoristics. But thinkin the 109s and 190s if flown by a well trained pilot were pretty effective, and something the allied pilots needed to worry about.
The story of Gunther Rall, I think it was Rall, and all those allied planes that jumped him. Was pretty much just him against about 4 or 8 allied planes. They just kept making pass after pass shooting up his plane. Shot off his thumb IIRC.
Saw someone did a painting of it I think. Don't have the link anymore.
LOL kinda like the MA any more. Ya get jumped by several red icons or chase one into a high flight of red icon inb and it's turn and avoid best you can but the number of red icons frequently insures your goin down.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Often I come to the conclusion that their opponents were that bad.
Take the P51 here for example.
IMO Either its the most grossly undermodeled plane in the game.
Or it isnt all it was made out to be IRL.
I dont know about the rest of you but the Pony isnt one of those planes I particularly worry about in the game. Unless it has a pretty decent stick at the controls I usually view them as a dead target before I ever pull the trigger on them.
I remember reading a quote from some fighter pilot saying something to the effect of "Good flying never killed anyone yet" and another saying that the winner was usually the pilot who made the fewest mistakes.
I think your point about the P-51 holds true for all the airplanes - if you put an average pilot in them, your going to see average results. But at the same time, if you put an ace in it, they are very dangerous. The P-51 in particular is basically invulnerable to it's historical opponents if only the pilot maintains his SA and doesn't make any mistakes - but how many can actually do this in practice?