Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman_SBM on April 13, 2001, 07:35:00 AM
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I agree with Bush! (http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/12/bush.speech/index.html)
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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Freedom of choice.
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Yep, me too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
His bro has been trying to implement a similar policy here in FL but the libs keep getting in the way at every turn. Funny how the teachers (and their union <- major democrat contributors) are against a performance review of their own performance. Seems the rest of us are held to a standard but they shouldn't be??
Eagler
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The school voucher prop came up on California last year. It failed horribly.
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I'm all for private schools, but I'm against the vouchers. All the vouchers would do is to give the feds an excuse to fcuk with private schools (in effect turning them into public schools), and raising the tuition in private schools to whatever it is right now + the voucher.
What I want is (at the very least) an exempttion from paying for public schools. My kids never atttended one. I had to pay tuition for private schools on top of the taxes I paid for pubic schools.
Or better yet, abolish public schools altogether. The government has no right to indoctrinate my children.
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Originally posted by mietla:
What I want is (at the very least) an exempttion from paying for public schools. My kids never atttended one. I had to pay tuition for private schools on top of the taxes I paid for pubic schools.
Or better yet, abolish public schools altogether. The government has no right to indoctrinate my children.
Yes, I feel those in private school should get the "voucher" or tax break or whatever label you put on it. Or as you stated, do away with public schools all together, let us use the money to fund our child's education as we, the parents, deem fit. Problem is many are not disciplined enough to provide for their kids even if given the money. They'd blow it on the WWF pay per views, cheap beer and cigs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The current system is corrupt with politics. I'm for a change and the Republicans "scheme" would work if given a chance. The teachers who are against it are those job scared as they know they are under qualified to teach properly.
Eagler
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Meitla, this may come as some suprise, so sit down. Private schools run their pricing based on the maximum benifit of price vs number of students. No school is likely to get more than a handful of "voucher students", leaving that model basically unchanged.
You really think they would go so far as to ruin their profit level just to raise tuition to "tuition + voucher"?
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Actualy, higher prices are secondary here. I don't want the government anywhere near my children's school.
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This is the first argument I've heard this is unfair to private schools, and frankly I don't get it.
You're afraid that what in effect are scholarships are going to ruin their school?
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Yes. It'll give the government an excuse to "reward/punish" schools for complying with governtment's wishes. You know, every fed dollar has strings attached.
It may take some time for it to happen, but once we allow it in principle, it is just a matter of time when they take over the whole thing.
Remember when they introduced 16-th Amendment? They sold it to the public by promissing that only 1% of people will pay an income tax, and that it will never exceed 1% of the income. Yeah, right...
Only public schools benefit from vouchers. They get to keep at least half of the money, and don't have to provide any services to the kid who left.
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Yet it is still a free market.
If letting standards fall to comply with a percieved government control then they risk losing consumers, not to mention lose the potential new capital as their changes make them no longer attractive to the parents with the vouchers.
If for some reason goverment controls to get ahold of the vouchers to degenerate the school quality, you can be assured there will be no shortage of those not complying, and making more money from that. There is nothing forcing them to, and in such a situation (which has a bit of paranoia thrown in), it would be extremely profitable for them to do so.
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Originally posted by mietla:
Yes. It'll give the government an excuse to "reward/punish" schools for complying with governtment's wishes. You know, every fed dollar has strings attached.
Well this is definately true. I paya dear price to keep my 3 boys in a private Christian school. Our school doesn't except any Government funds for the exact reason Mietla has stated. This school does have the 10 commandments posted on teh wall, uses corporal punishment, a dress code (very modest), prays in meetings, has chapel for teh kids every day..etc..etc. And for certain we dont want anyone raising a stink over any aspect of it. Theoretically someone could have an issue, go to the courthouse and file suit, and becuase of Governemnt funds/involvement , they could make a case.
anyway you get the picture, and he does have a point.
ammo
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Funny how the teachers (and their union <- major democrat contributors) are against a performance review of their own performance.
I am not, I welcome it. Please, tell me your qualifications for evaluating my performance as a teacher. While you're at it, include your career field so I can evaluate you too. For what it is worth I do not maintain a union membership because I object strongly to the representation and its affiliations. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Give Mietla a cigar, he is exactly right. If private schools compete for government money they will have to cow-tow to government whims. Further- and this is the part you guys have missed- they will have to cow-tow to the public themselves. What advantage private schools possess is gained by the fact they are exclusive, and can tell parents to take off when they become too much of a hassle. If the private schools become dependent on public money (and once you put up brand new buildings from all that money you have coming in you are most definitely hooked) you can bet they will bend to public demand. It will take time, but in the end it will happen.
It all sounds so easy, doesn't it? Yet, for all the experts we have telling us what a rotten job teachers do, how they don't care, how they try to avoid responsibility, not one has stepped forward and shown us any proof they have a better way. Hey, I know schools are in trouble. I know they have to change, and I have to constantly change in order to keep up with the demands of my profession. If vouchers work, great, that is what should happen. I don't happen to believe vouchers are the panacea some of you think they are as they only sidestep the core problems.
Public education is in trouble largely because of the way our society is evolving. We are diverse, and we have many different ways of solving any school-related issue you care to discuss. If I say "expulsion, yes or no?" you will find myriad answers to the question. 20 years ago people might have kept that response to themselves, no more. Now everyone feels empowered to march into a classroom and get in a teacher's face- and they do. What do we do? The school's power comes from the community it serves- remember that. If the community says this is acceptable behavior, that is what happens. If the community decides that teaching sex education in 5th grade is ok, that is what happens. The problem is what do you do when your community is diverse and mixed signals are sent to the school? What happens if your state legislature, based on lobbyist pressure or powerful advocacy groups passes an ill-advised intiative?
Don't get me wrong. I am not angry about yet another stereotype of the kind listed above, that is part of the game. You should know I walk into my classroom every day and give everything I have to move my students forward and prepare them for the next year and the rest of their lives. Don't feel sorry for me, I picked my career and love it. I am happy most of the time and can't think of doing anything else. I just couldn't let the stereotype pass unanswered.
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You know, the one thing I like about geedubya is the perception I have that he is a genuinely honest man. I have my concerns about his politics but at least I feel that what I see of him is by and large, who he really is.
Refreashing considering the previous occupant, for me at least.
Y
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Kieren,
I can't fully reply now (Easter cooking/preparations etc.), but tomorrow I think I'll share my cigar with you.
And I don't mean to give you a butt, I mean split it in half, you deserve it. You have good points I would like to address.
Till tomorrow...
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If private schools compete for government money they will have to cow-tow to government whims. Further- and this is the part you guys have missed- they will have to cow-tow to the public themselves. What advantage private schools possess is gained by the fact they are exclusive, and can tell parents to take off when they become too much of a hassle. If the private schools become dependent on public money (and once you put up brand new buildings from all that money you have coming in you are most definitely hooked) you can bet they will bend to public demand. It will take time, but in the end it will happen.
If the demand is there for schools that completely ignore any government requirements, then there most certainly will stay that way or start new ones to fill the demand. How do you think all these private schools got here in the first place?
It's not as if there are going to be an influx of vouchers to build a school around. In order to qualify your school must be failing for 3 consecutive years, and there be no alternative public school available for transfer. Should such a situation happen to arise though, screw the kids and protect the system?
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Whoa Fatty, I am not taking such an extreme stance as you might imagine, nor am I trying to be all that defensive.
I don't have a problem with the public being offered an alternative choice of schools. What I am attempting to point out is that it isn't going to work exactly the way the bulk of people seem to think it will. Further, like Mietla, I believe that anytime the public or government money is involved you hand over power.
Many people will initially jump right on the voucher bandwagon because the media tells them it will solve their problems. Wait 'til they get to the private schools and figure out they can't just march in and tell the teachers how they are doing it wrong every day! This is my point; the private school (as a private business) will have to make the decision any business makes- satisfy the customers or lose them. What is the easiest thing to do in the situation? Appease. Lawsuits are expensive, so just make the problem go away, it isn't worth it whether the school is right or wrong.
Nobody said "screw the kids". I don't happen to think it is the kids that are the problem at all. I think that the system of appeasement that has occured over the last 25 years or so has made it difficult for any educational institution to operate with the confidence it needs to create sound intitiatives that will improve schools.
Notice that I address the schools as partially to blame, as they ignored the correct, if difficult, path. Too many times schools have ignored doing right simply because it was more expedient to give in. This I believe is the defining difference between public and private schools. Private schools, by divorcing themselves of the system, have been able to control themselves with minimal influence from external forces. The test will now be can they maintain that existance when the new moneys they receive are generated by a very active and involved government. I suspect not, and the influx of parents that are vocal (and you'd better believe that the parents that switch are the vocal ones) will give private schools headaches they haven't seen in some time.
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 04-14-2001).]
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I don't see how a parent with a voucher, or scholarship, or whathaveyou, is any different than a parent that takes their child out of a public school and places it in a private school right now, Kieren. The single difference is they're having the tuition subsidized, and the private school still has the power of admittance.
The headaches, at worst, will be similar to those they had when the bulk of private schools were formed during teachers strikes 20-30 years ago. They always have been subject to the whim of the parents, which is what makes them attractive.
On divorcing the system, I don't think I was clear enough, but my point is any successful school is not going to alter its entire infrastructure simply to accommodate the possibility of 1 or 2 new kids, that may be going back to their public school in a year. Nothing is forcing schools to any new standard, and the parents that can reliably pay tuition are still the same.
I submit any school on such shakey ground as to need to go to the extremes of changing its curriculum/policies is not worthy of the parent of the voucher child anyway.
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Kieran...pardon me while I applause
<clap clap clap>
You nailed it. <arrow in bullseye sound effect>. Or, at least touched on it lightly and it whizzed by some of the members here. My father was assistant principal of our large local High School up until last year, when he had a chance to go back to his first love, teaching French, and did so at a much smaller, local school.
Public schools are scared to death of whiney parents threatening to sue at the drop of a hat, the ACLU and all those bonehead organizations. One thing that rubs be raw is discipline. In a private school, so many strikes, and their out, period! Public, well hold on, this is public money and the school is damned if they do or dont. If they throw out/suspend a problematic student, the ACLU and the Cochran ScumBags are there claiming the poor chap has been a victim. Hey, I could go on and on, but I know there are a lot of teachers in here that can elaborate far better than I. Its pretty hard to teach a kid, even in the best situations, if everything is in their favor. Teacher can't punish, penalize or heck, raise their voice at the kid if they get out of hand. Public schools HAVE to endure these kids. And their lack-of-ethics parentage, if they have both.
Rant abbreviated but I think you get the gist. Not only are the public schools slipping, but they seem to have both hands tied behind their back. They sure do not have the leverage the Private Schools do.
(Hey, I want to Catholic School...hands got slapped frequently and the soap, well, it DOES have a chalky after-taste...but I do feel I got the last word! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
[This message has been edited by LePaul (edited 04-14-2001).]
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So it's "those public school parents" that are the problem?
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The difference is that there will be potentially many vouchers at stake. Private schools are businesses. They are run like businesses. This is a two-edged sword of course, as the very thing that gives them strength is a potential weakness. What is the school's primary function, educate students or make money? If it is the former, will the private school stick to principles no matter the cost? If it is the latter, how far will the school go to garner a lion's share of a new market?
New people aren't being generated, so some of the problems that leave public schools are just moving over to private schools. This is where I think the defining moment for vouchers occurs- will the school stick to principle or go for capital? I also think that we will be talking about far more than just a few vouchers in some areas, making this decision more difficult to make objectively.
But seriously, what makes a private school more effective than a public school? Let's look at an extreme version of private schooling- home schooling.
Home schooling, when it works (and don't get me started here!) works because it is often the parent directly involved with the child in a nurturing environment. The parent can decide, without fear of repurcussions, what methodology to apply to educating their child. Their values can be instilled, their culture, their discipline. The parents can't be "fired", and the state can't pull funding. There is no gang influence. Common sense dictates that the more one-on-one time a student has with their teacher, the more they learn. If this type of environment could be had for every student of course education would improve.
Now let's look at public education. Where do you think studies show up to 80% of a teacher's time is spent daily? Discipline, that's where. Disruption in the classroom is a normal occurrence, and the teacher, like it or not, must deal with it. Every time a teacher approaches discipline it is with the full knowledge that their solution may be challenged by the student, principal, parents, and quite possibly the school board and community. This is what I mean by a diverse society and its impact on school. Look at he hulabaloo we had over two unruly players ejected from this game. Some people who jumped to protect them couldn't have picked their faces out on the street, yet look how vehemently they took their sides in the dispute. There were various opinions as to how HTC could and should have done it differently. Do you imagine for one second that a parent would do any less? This makes discipline a problem that just won't go away. It is nearly impossible to remove a student from your class no matter how disruptive he/she is. This means diminished education for all the students in the class.
Another initiative that has occurred in the last 10 years is the concept of inclusion, forced upon public education by the federal government. It states that all students, regardless of their emotional and cognitive ability, are to be placed in the least restrictive environment. Advocacy groups have used this as a weapon to force schools into mainstreaming students into classrooms they are ill-equipped to attend. The special needs students run the gamut of dysfunction, from emotional handicaps to mental retardation. They are thrown into the classroom, and the teacher is given an Educational Intervention Plan (EIP). These EIP's are law, and must be followed. If the EIP demands an hour a day of individual time, the student must be given that amount of time. This of course is done to the exclusion of the rest of the class. If the teacher has no aides it makes no difference; the EIP will be followed. If that isn't bad enough, sometimes multiple special-needs students will be dropped into a mainstream class. Take this with an average enrollment of 25-30 kids and you suddenly see a big problem. Education has been diminished to the lowest common denominator because the bulk of the time will be spent with a few.
Take the above case and apply it to discipline. Much of child misbehavior occurs as a result of frustration. mentally challenged students are seldom so unintelligent as to be oblivious to their condition. They suffer self-esteem problems, they are teased, and they lash out. They are bored out of their minds sitting in classes that are 4 and 5 years above their cognitive level. They act out. They are not allowed to fail- teachers are supposed to adjust the grade scale so that the students will pass. The gist seems to be socialize them, pure and simple. All the while the regular education children suffer.
All this I have seen and experienced with my own eyes- this was/is my school system.
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 04-16-2001).]
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School quality and capital profit are not exclusive though Kieran, they're inclusive.
Unless a private school is building around vouchers it's not cost effective to accomodate govt requirements in any way to get that extra few dollars. The potential loss is far, far greater.
What has to happen for any vouchers to be available?
If there are no other public schools, at all and said public school must fail for 3 consecutive years. At this point a new school is formed in place of the prior, and need based vouchers may be obtainable to those parents that want to move their kids and cannot (as long as no other public schools are available). If one decides they want to move their kid at this point, and the voucher is granted, they may move then to a private school. For 1 year. Then they are back in their original school, unless it is failing again.
What capitalist in their right mind, no matter how greedy, would build around that shaky at best monetary supply?
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Fatty, I am in no way against this plan. I understand its implementation, too. I guess I have gone a long way to try to express a point that may not be worth worrying about.
Unless a private school is building around vouchers it's not cost effective to accomodate govt requirements in any way to get that extra few dollars. The potential loss is far, far greater.
This is true of any educational institution, whether public or private. I have stated flatly that our schools have failed in that they appease their clientele, and I suspect if the monetary reward was great enough, so would private schools. That is a generic observation, however, and the likelihood of most voucher programs resulting in this scenario, at least for the time being, is remote.
I can see numerous other problems with the voucher school program that I won't bore anyone with. Suffice to say this; many of the intiatives look great on paper, but upon implementation all too soon reveal their short-sightedness. Perhaps I have taught long enough to be overly cynical- I prefer to think I am merely pragmatic. One of the truisms of my profession is that every 5-7 years a "new paradigm" will come our way, and like it or not we are dragged along in its wake. We are sent to workshops, hold meetings, purchase materials, and attempt to implement the plan. The old-timers sit back stoicly and smile. You see, the other truism of education is that, in 5-7 years, another "new paradigm" will come our way... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Heh, I'm not fighting you Keiren so much as many of the fallacies brought out against reforms. I voted primarily on education this election, and truth be told vouchers are a miniscule part of it.
There are some great public schools, rivaling any private school (short of true academies, but at 20-30k per year those aren't at issue here), and there are some truly terrible ones. Be it due to surroundings, funding, personel, struturing, or any combination of those, some schools don't work. This is primarily aimed that getting those students into public schools that are working, vouchers being an extreme fallback when there is no other option.
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Kieran... you're obviously more knowledgeable about this than most of us. What would you do to "fix it"?
I like the voucher idea for one simple reason... I'm already paying a private school because I was dissatisfied with the public school. If I understand the voucher system, it's a chance to reduce my cost. (So much for altruism.)
cheers
sand
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Honestly, I don't know. That is why I am not against vouchers- I personally don't have a better idea. My comments are meant to guard others against some conception that vouchers will make it all better. If it was that simple it would have happened long ago.
Education, in particular universities, has been looking for a new paradigm for a long time. The current system of education in America is based on the factory system- in one end, out the other. It assumes there will be a certain amount of waste, and that is acceptable. Here's the odd thing. We know more than ever before what makes people do what they do, we understand more about learning and the human mind than we ever have, yet our schools seem to be getting worse. Why?
I think schools are a reflection of society in general. That isn't meant to be a cop-out, but it is true. Schools have a vital part in the transformation of society, and with that comes a grave responsibility. Still, society cannot ignore its responsibility to empower schools to do what they must. This to me is the biggest roadblock; how do you get so many people to agree on an educational model, intiative, or any other methodology intended to fix the problem?
There it is as I see it. Until we (society) can come to some agreement to any plan, nothing will ever work.
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 04-15-2001).]
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Kieran,
You've made many good points.
Particularly the "factory" analogy.
We seem to think we can "mass-produce" successful students. We seem to think the bigger the factory the more efficient the production.
I think a well-educated successful student is more of a "hand-crafted" product. I don't think the "bigger is better" approach is helping that situation.
Just my .02.