Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on December 22, 2005, 08:59:18 AM
-
Good? Bad? Indifferent?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.
Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years.
The network will incorporate thousands of existing CCTV cameras which are being converted to read number plates automatically night and day to provide 24/7 coverage of all motorways and main roads, as well as towns, cities, ports and petrol-station forecourts.
By next March a central database installed alongside the Police National Computer in Hendon, north London, will store the details of 35 million number-plate "reads" per day. These will include time, date and precise location, with camera sites monitored by global positioning satellites.
Already there are plans to extend the database by increasing the storage period to five years and by linking thousands of additional cameras so that details of up to 100 million number plates can be fed each day into the central databank.
Senior police officers have described the surveillance network as possibly the biggest advance in the technology of crime detection and prevention since the introduction of DNA fingerprinting.
But others concerned about civil liberties will be worried that the movements of millions of law-abiding people will soon be routinely recorded and kept on a central computer database for years.
The new national data centre of vehicle movements will form the basis of a sophisticated surveillance tool that lies at the heart of an operation designed to drive criminals off the road.
In the process, the data centre will provide unrivalled opportunities to gather intelligence data on the movements and associations of organised gangs and terrorist suspects whenever they use cars, vans or motorcycles.
The scheme is being orchestrated by the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) and has the full backing of ministers who have sanctioned the spending of £24m this year on equipment.
More than 50 local authorities have signed agreements to allow the police to convert thousands of existing traffic cameras so they can read number plates automatically. The data will then be transmitted to Hendon via a secure police communications network.
-
Bad. Certainly some jeanyus US politicians will entertain the idea.
-SW
-
doesn't germany allready have cameras all over the autobaun? Doesn't japan have a revolving light that comes on if a truck speeds?
Don't we allready have laws that say no tinting the windows so that cops can see if you are wearing your seat belt or not?
Laws that say we have to have our lights on when the windshield wipers are on?
laws that say that everyone has to get out of their cars every half hour and stand on one foot while patting their head with the oppossite hand? (maybe that one isn't law just yet)
And why do they do it? just because.... they can. "oooh ooh I bet we can make em do this"
lazs
-
Indifferent. I don't care what they do in Britain. I just hope our brilliant politicians don't get any ideas...fortunately, we have bit more square mileage to cover.
BTW...Your link goes to "State Population Estimates in 2005", not the story you quoted.
-
Originally posted by SOB
Indifferent. I don't care what they do in Britain. I just hope our brilliant politicians don't get any ideas...fortunately, we have bit more square mileage to cover.
BTW...Your link goes to "State Population Estimates in 2005", not the story you quoted.
Doh! Thanks...fixed.
-
I think it's sinister. Remember George Orwell's book '1984' was written in Britain. So it has come to pass. From now on the police in Britain will be able to keep watch on everyone.
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
I think it's sinister. Remember George Orwell's book '1984' was written in Britain. So it has come to pass. From now on the police in Britain will be able to keep watch on everyone.
Aye. Beet won't be able to speed in his Audi anymore either. :confused:
-
Originally posted by SOB
fortunately, we have bit more square mileage to cover.
No problem at all. You could just install a transponder to every vehicle.
-
Any true American who supports the Patriot Act would be all for this .. I mean, if you don't break the law, you got nothing to worry about... right?
-
Heh.
-SW
-
You are allready monitored because you have licence plates, driving licences and MVR. This is just a little automatization. It wouldn't reguire any law change, or would it?
Not that I like it at all, but I'm 100% sure that it will be reality all over the world in 10 years.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Any true American who supports the Patriot Act would be all for this .. I mean, if you don't break the law, you got nothing to worry about... right?
:aok
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Good? Bad? Indifferent?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Holy crap. 1984 is now.
-
Britain has already come to the realization that it's subjects cannot be trusted. They must therefore be monitored constantly lest they get any ideas to do anything not considered proper by the authorities. If they start to drive too far or to areas they should not be allowed near they can be apprehended later at the governments pleasure. After all, the subjects are there merely to provide for the states welfare. Long live the State.
Mora,
Wrong assumption there. Your license and registration do not provide day to day monitoring of where and when you go somewhere.
-
Originally posted by mora
You are allready monitored because you have licence plates, driving licences and MVR. This is just a little automatization. It wouldn't reguire any law change, or would it?
Not that I like it at all, but I'm 100% sure that it will be reality all over the world in 10 years.
No, you are registered, but not monitored.
It's a huge step really. Instead of just being able to tell that you own a car and may drive it, they now can tell that at 13pm 2006-01-01 you drove from your gay lovers sex dungeon to buy some adult diapers before heading home to your fourth wife.
Now, let some corporations tap into that little tidbit of knowledge. See if they'll hire you.
-
How about a system described above but one that only looked for certain license plates? Imagine a database of every stolen car, and the system would only keep data on those particular cars. Imagine the next amber alert and the suspect's licence plate is entered into the database and the car is spotted within an hour.
The Ohio Highway Patrol did a trial of a similar system last year.
http://www.remingtonelsag.com/press_02.htm
-
Britain has already come to the realization that it's subjects cannot be trusted. They must therefore be monitored constantly lest they get any ideas to do anything not considered proper by the authorities. If they start to drive too far or to areas they should not be allowed near they can be apprehended later at the governments pleasure. After all, the subjects are there merely to provide for the states welfare. Long live the State.
Troll.
-
No dowding, it's sarcasm. It may, in fact, be rather accurate but it is still sarcasm.
Trolls live under bridges and help in monitoring traffic for unauthorized motor vehicle trips.:rolleyes:
-
Insidious and dangerous...the Big Brother analogy is no exaggeration here, IMO. How do the Brits on the street feel? I'm a little surpried that I don't perceive more of an outcry (but I may just not have been paying attention, too)
This seems to go a lot farther even than living under a camera 24/7 in the larger cities (yes, I know I exaggerate a bit here, but not too far, I think)
I can't buy the security arguement either. If the authorities suspect a person of something, there are already legally supervised means to identify and track a person's comings and goings, yes?
Mora: Not quite right. Licenses and registrations really don't track a persons movements, associates or business. Licenses and registrations are means by which our state governments assures that vehicles are bought and sold legally, that ownership is properly recorded and that vehicles are properly maintained and safe on the road. Oh, yeah...I almost forgot...they are also an excellent source of tax revenue!
-
What a wonderfully Stupid idea.
Better them then us though.
-
Sarcasm and troll like behaviour are not mutually exclusive.
-
haha, maybe its time to invest in one of those random number generator LCD license plates:noid
-
Next thing you know they are going to force car makers to put governers on cars so you can't speed.
I bet they will find a way to ticket you through the mail too.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Next thing you know they are going to force car makers to put governers on cars so you can't speed.
My BMW came limited to 125 mph, per federal standards. Had to buy a chip to remove the govnor so it can do 155.
-
So... are any brit citizens pissed? Any members of parliament getting flooded with letters/emails?
-
Originally posted by Octavius
So... are any brit citizens pissed? Any members of parliament getting flooded with letters/emails?
I'm sure a certain UK poster will be along any moment and straighten us all out how wasteful we are and how this is a good thing for Britain, because the average UK citizen can't drive as well as he.....
-
Camera's, who cares? They can already pull any of that info right out of your car's black box. Old news link from 2004.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141048,00.html
-
Key problem is the digital database. It doesent matter much if you have gazillion minutes of videotapes from every street corner. The videotapes wont survey anything. You walking past them is like needle in world record haystack, but binary indexed by the names of bypassers is like treebranch in a needlestack.
Digital databases hold enormous powers for abusers. Sadly, there is no stopping to this, it wont take long 'till computers can flawlessly pinpoint inviduals by taking images of their faces. Next logical step, because we can, we must. I cant think of any reason, why government should be allowed to collect these kinds of databases. I think it could be unconstitutional thruout the western world, but whos gonna try them? Of course such system could be beneficial, but that is not the case.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Mora,
Wrong assumption there. Your license and registration do not provide day to day monitoring of where and when you go somewhere.
They could have done it manually before, but they haven't done it in a large scale for obvious reasons. So IMO there's no big difference, at least from the legal perspective. I doubt it's illegal to keep a database, if the information is collected by legal means. Installing transponders would be another matter entirely.
Again I don't like this at all. It has just been obvious for a long time that this kind of monitoring will become reality, and I don't understand the shock reaction here. This kind of "development" is inevitable in a democratic society. Most people want security above all, even if it's just perceived, and don't give a crap about their privacy.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Next thing you know they are going to force car makers to put governers on cars so you can't speed.
I bet they will find a way to ticket you through the mail too.
Both of those things are a reality here. Trucks above certain weight have 55 mph governors(about to be lowered to 50 mph, because of one single accident), and the roadsides have automatic cameras. The fines are addressed to the owner of the vehicle... They'd love nothing more than to put governors on all vehicles, and it will most likely happen with the help of the EU in less than 10 years.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Britain has already come to the realization that it's subjects cannot be trusted. They must therefore be monitored constantly lest they get any ideas to do anything not considered proper by the authorities.
LOL!!!!
Tell it to GWB the next time he decides that your phone need tapping...without congressional permission of course.
Long live the "Patriot" Act.
(well said MT)
-
Originally posted by Curval
LOL!!!!
Tell it to GWB the next time he decides that your phone need tapping...without congressional permission of course.
Long live the "Patriot" Act.
(well said MT)
He's tapped the phone of members of this forum? Really?
A few towelheads having their phone calls recorded is a far cry from every citizen having their location recorded 24/7...
-
Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.
One of the first things they will find out is that 99.998% of vehicles are driving on the wrong side of the road.
-
Originally posted by Curval
LOL!!!!
Tell it to GWB the next time he decides that your phone need tapping...without congressional permission of course.
Long live the "Patriot" Act.
(well said MT)
Like four or five presidents have before him? They didn't even need the " "Patriot" " act.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Like four or five presidents have before him? They didn't even need the " "Patriot" " act.
And that makes it any better?
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
He's tapped the phone of members of this forum? Really?
A few towelheads having their phone calls recorded is a far cry from every citizen having their location recorded 24/7...
How do you know it is a few "towel heads"?
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Good? Bad? Indifferent?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Unfortunately once my countrymen decided it was OK for the Police put up cameras in every town centre it was bound to happen. They might start feeling different once the Goverment starts using this a revenue stream (and they will): it will be pay as you go tolls on all roads (this has already been suggested by the current goverment) followed by speeding fines worked out by journey time (which is about to happen here in New South Wales).
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
He's tapped the phone of members of this forum? Really?
A few towelheads having their phone calls recorded is a far cry from every citizen having their location recorded 24/7...
Who told you it was a few towel heads...George? Or are you merely assuming this based upon his declaration that he authorised the tappings to fight terrorism?
What's next? Behind on your taxes? Hell, that's a national security issue now...afterall how many billions are being spent "protecting" the US of A?
Ahh to heck with it...as long as there are enough In & Outs, gun shops and cheap gas what do you really care anyway?
lol
-
Originally posted by Pei
And that makes it any better?
A presidential executive order reads: "The attorney general is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence without a court order." So wrote Jimmy Carter.
It has to do with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
Just pointing out that it really has little to do with the patriot act.
-
Holden,
Darnit you are just not getting it are you. Now repeat after me......
It's all Bush's fault It's all Bush's fault It's all Bush's fault...
Keep repeating it for the next 3 years. You'll be a liberal soon.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p
-
Originally posted by Curval
Ahh to heck with it...as long as there are enough In & Outs, gun shops and cheap gas what do you really care anyway?
dont forget liquor stores.
-
Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.
I have to wonder if some of the same people who decided that turning cattle into cannabalistic carnivors, and along the way came up with "mad cow disease", were involved in this decision? Who would have expected taking an animal which is a herbivor, that humans will eventually eat, and turning it into a cannibal was a bad idea? Just because it can be done does not mean it should be done.
Not that trying to track the location of every car in the UK is quite the same, but in my opinion it's close. I would be quite pissed as a citizen of the UK that my tax dollars are going to be spent for such a frivilous, complicated, and expensive approach to tracking terrorists. If they have no clue who the terrorists are, this kind of tool won't help prevent or stop attacks. Why would the path a terrorist take matter anyway? Also, if *everyone* is being tracked, won't that make tracking a specific car (or cars) harder? Unfortunately, when some technologies become available some knucklehead (always) thinks it should be implemented.
I suppose the British citizens think this will make them safer. I applaud them for stepping up to the task of implemeting this technology which will only increase in cost, have numerous implementation problems (resulting in data errors), and ultimately provide data in which 99.99% of it has no value. In the immortal words of Sponge Bob Squarepants, " Good luck with that!".
Regards,
Malta
-
That's just scary. Hope it doesn't spread.
lasz, there's no general camera surveillance on german roads. Exceptions are tunnels and borders, but I guess that's common everywhere.
-
Check out Office of Innovative Partnerships and Alternative Funding (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/OIPP/ruftf_members.shtml)
Oregon has been studying a GPS based road tax system for some time.
"Office of Innovative BS" more like it. Any of you Oregonians want to start a petition to keep the road tax on a per gallon rather than per mile basis?
-
Originally posted by Redwing
That's just scary. Hope it doesn't spread.
lasz, there's no general camera surveillance on german roads. Exceptions are tunnels and borders, but I guess that's common everywhere.
While the statement above is correct, he's refering to the 'tax thingy' they've been putting on every major autobahn. Their primary function is to automatically collect fees from truck drivers (and detect passing vehicle's drivers who didnt pay) for autobahn-maintenance, however, they went lengths to make the system so complicated and obfuscated that it would be perfectly able to offer the alluded surveillance capability.
While its a prime target for paranoid conspiracy theory nutjobs, we shouldnt underestimate the possible implications on human/freedom rights.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Any true American who supports the Patriot Act would be all for this .. I mean, if you don't break the law, you got nothing to worry about... right?
Any True American
Wouldnt support the Patriot Act
And if you monitor someones every movement. isnt that considered Stalking?LOL
Yes, I realise you were being sarcastic.
Im just say'n it anyway
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
He's tapped the phone of members of this forum? Really?
A few towelheads having their phone calls recorded is a far cry from every citizen having their location recorded 24/7...
I don't know for the USA but in Britain they have long had and used the technology to monitor phone conversations for certain key words. Words like bomb, attack, etc and tap into them from a monitoring centre in England. Also emails are monitored for key words too. I imagine it's the same in the USA and other countries.
It would be interesting to set up a couple of email accounts and discuss a terrorist act with yourself and see how long it would take for the FBI or whoever to turn up on your doorstep. :noid
-
Seems like a inefective way to do it, just make GPS mandatory, you would be able to mail traffic tickets, I bet you would see a tenfold increase in violations.
You should be able to get rid of 50-60% of the police force, no need for ticket writers, detectives would have a lot less legwork to do.
I bet thats how we will do it in the State's, exept for the law enforcment reduction part, we have far too many terrorists for that.
shamus
-
Ok lets take a logical look at this.
First off whats possible in the UK is not necessarily possible over here in the US.
Granted it sucks, yes its yet one more nail on lid of the box. Putting us squarely in a police state. Unfortunately this seems to be one more development that our founding fathers forgot to plan for.
Sounds to me like someone near Hendon needs to make a EMP device.
Simply fry their storage system once a week till they give it up.
They don't realise it now. But the more they treat everyone like a terrorist.
The more terrorists they will create.
-
Ok... could be wrong about the germany thing... saw it on the history channel and they said that the roads were monitored by camera for traffic reasons and anyone following too close was photoed and then sent a ticket.
We have the same thing for red lights.
I think that it is probly correct that there is too much data out there for someone to study but that does not make me any more comfortable... All it means is that...
Unless you are a sheep that doesn't stick out... you will be culled out when you become noticable (or even randomly) and everything you have ever done will be scrutinized.... judgement day. Only thing is... not byu gods laws but by the current governments laws.... I don't think god will hold not wearing seat belts against me for instance..
lazs
-
Unfortunately, governments will always have an excuse as to why they want/need laws like that, and they always wrap it up into something like "well, gee, you need ID to get a drivers licence right?" and from there just keep going untill we all have cameras in our houses too.
If you take away your camera, you must be hiding something from Big Brother?, why do you want to be so difficult? Wait...we will send somebody over right away to find out what the trouble is...don't worry. :confused:
-
why bother with license plates. just put transponders in vehicles and use gps.
-
Transponders and GPS are being discussed,
The UK has a population of 60 million and is around 550 by 300 miles in size, approx.
We have more CCTV than the rest of Europe combined, we are regulated and monitored and we all appreciate the efforts of our socialist government to keep us safe from harm.
God save King Tony Blair !
Can't say much more as I am being monitored, (sound of electric shock being adminstered by my ankle tag)
wipass
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
I don't know for the USA but in Britain they have long had and used the technology to monitor phone conversations for certain key words. Words like bomb, attack, etc and tap into them from a monitoring centre in England. Also emails are monitored for key words too. I imagine it's the same in the USA and other countries.
It would be interesting to set up a couple of email accounts and discuss a terrorist act with yourself and see how long it would take for the FBI or whoever to turn up on your doorstep. :noid
That might be part of Echelon. It's eavesdropping on a global scale.
And if you plan on testing it bear in mind that people have inadvertenly tripped Echelon in the past, which has probably left them with some explaining to do.
http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/6/6929/1.html
Echelon is a system used by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) to intercept and process international communications passing via communications satellites. It is one part of a global surveillance systems that is now over 50 years old. Other parts of the same system intercept messages from the Internet, from undersea cables, from radio transmissions, from secret equipment installed inside embassies, or use orbiting satellites to monitor signals anywhere on the earth's surface. The system includes stations run by Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, in addition to those operated by the United States. Although some Australian and British stations do the same job as America's Echelon sites, they are not necessarily called "Echelon" stations. But they all form part of the same integrated global network using the same equipment and methods to extract information and intelligence illicitly from millions of messages every day, all over the world
By the early 1970s, the laborious process of scanning paper printouts for names or terms appearing on the "watch lists" had begun to be replaced by automated computer systems. These computers performed a task essentially similar to the search engines of the internet. Prompted with a word, phrase or combination of words, they will identify all messages containing the desired words or phrases. Their job, now performed on a huge scale, is to match the "key words" or phrases of interest to intelligence agencies to the huge volume of international communications, to extract them and pass them to where they are wanted
Excel
-
And so it was prophecied some years ago:
My uncle has a country place
That no one knows about
He says it used to be a farm
Before the Motor Law
And on Sundays I elude the eyes
And hop the Turbine Freight
To far outside the Wire
Where my white-haired uncle waits
Jump to the ground
As the Turbo slows to cross the borderline
Run like the wind
As excitement shivers up and down my spine
Down in his barn
My uncle preserved for me an old machine
For fifty odd years
To keep it as new has been his dearest dream
I strip away the old debris
That hides a shining car
A brilliant red Barchetta
From a better vanished time
I fire up the willing engine
Responding with a roar
Tires spitting gravel
I commit my weekly crime
Wind
In my hair
Shifting and drifting
Mechanical music
Adrenaline surge...
Well-weathered leather
Hot metal and oil
The scented country air
Sunlight on chrome
The blur of the landscape
Every nerve aware
Suddenly ahead of me
Across the mountainside
A gleaming alloy air car
Shoots towards me, two lanes wide
I spin around with shrieking tires
To run the deadly race
Go screaming through the valley
As another joins the chase
Drive like the wind
Straining the limits of machine and man
Laughing out loud with fear and hope
I've got a desperate plan
At the one-lane bridge
I leave the giants stranded at the riverside
Race back to the farm
To dream with my uncle at the fireside
-
Britain is in a race against time to become the worlds first ****opia.
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
I don't know for the USA but in Britain they have long had and used the technology to monitor phone conversations for certain key words. Words like bomb, attack, etc and tap into them from a monitoring centre in England. Also emails are monitored for key words too. I imagine it's the same in the USA and other countries.
It would be interesting to set up a couple of email accounts and discuss a terrorist act with yourself and see how long it would take for the FBI or whoever to turn up on your doorstep. :noid
There's two known places in the UK that do this, one is American and the other is British and I would guess that they both share information with each other.
As for the monitoring of cars in Britain, I can't see it happening for a very long time. Only main roads in towns/city centres have CCTV and there are other cameras located on busy junctions on motorways/A roads. I think the price of introducing such equipment, personnel etc., would be far too much and I'm sure it would drop down any governments agenda when medical and education issues would be more important.
-
Britan is far from being the first. OnStar and LoJack have been tracking movement for years in the US. Cameras have been monitoring roadways population centers for the last 20 or more as well.
-
everytime you use your cellphone they know were you are :noid
I can even log in and find out were my missus is and vice versa. we have both opted for an extra service that allows you to track the cellphones in our households. gonna be great for when the little one gets her first cell and she says she is at her firends house while she really is an a crack house getting her fix ;) cod forbid
-
Originally posted by Pei
How do you know it is a few "towel heads"?
Why in the Hell would they waste their time bugging your phone calls...to bore themselves silly. Besides you would hear them snickering in the background.
here you may be interested in one of these (http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=28)
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Why in the Hell would they waste their time bugging your phone calls...to bore themselves silly. Besides you would hear them snickering in the background.
I wonder if heard any snickering in the background on their phones. I kind of doubt it though, snickering would be a bit too obvious.
Excel
-
Every drivers companion:
http://www.phantomplate.com/
-
Ole George W seem's to think listening in on yr calls is ok though .........