Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: dtango on October 03, 2001, 09:00:00 AM
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"Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice"
By David Horowitz
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,35596,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,35596,00.html)
Tango, Sargeant
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
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Good article Dtango. I get such a frustrating feeling of anger towards these so-called "anti-war" demonstrators who just don't seem to have enough life experience to understand what time it is, and worse, endangering my loved ones while they think they are only excersizing their right to free speech. I guess we need a few more major terrorist hits before these spoiled brats get the drift...
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Those poor souls will never get the drift.
If they saw bin laden on the street they would run up and try to kiss him. Even after the first few dozen got their heads lopped off there would be an ever increasing stream of these poor souls running up and trying to kiss bin laden some more.
A certain percentage of human beings (10 to 15% IMO) are simply born stupid. Lovabel and kind but dumb as dumb can be.
Such is life.
Y
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Yeager - you're very optimistic in your estimates ;)
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A couple of thoughts on the article:
- I thank Mr. Horowitz for writing the commentary and the appeal. I hope that this message finds its way in into the communities of the current protestors and hope Mr. Horowitz's background as a former anti-war protestor is a strong stamp of credibility that will be heeded.
- This illustrates the truth that many of these protestors are totally misguided by perhaps good intentions and ideas and live in a fantasy world that is shattered when brought against the hard evidence of reality.
- The article also illustrates why protestors fail to come to their senses and that far from being the righteous humanitarians they claim to be they are actually wrapped up in and have totally missed their own sin of pride, ego, and self-absorbed self-righteousness.
- Yes some of them will never get it, but as Mr. Horowitz is an example, some will.
Tango, Sargeant
-------------------------------------------
412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: dtango ]
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Well, I tip my hat to Horowitz for having the brass to admit that he was totally wrong back in the '60's. Further, it's rare to see one of that era's "peaceniks" admit to the harm they caused...
"The blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the Communists.
The second effect of the war was to surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted in the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in "re-education camps" of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a century of abject poverty imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, which continue to this day. This, too, is the responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s."
However, I assure you that there were those that pointed out the likely consequences of Mr. Horowitz's actions to him back in the '60's....
Just as he is doing now for those currently demonstrating.
And, like those that warned Horowitz himself 35 years ago, he will be ignored by those that he is now trying to inform.
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He left out the most important part. By giving up, my weak kneed, spoiled bellybutton generation, left it to their children to finish. Losing in 'Nam gave these third world clowns the idea that America could be had. I'll garantee you, right now in some hole in Afghanistan, Ali is telling Mohammed the Americans are to weak to sustain a long war. And look what the Vietnamese did to them.
BTW. If we back off this one. We can be had.
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Originally posted by easymo:
BTW. If we back off this one. We can be had.
Replace "can" with will.
-SW
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I love how these bellybutton holes have suddenly got religion, now that its their nuts on the chopping block.
Less then a week before Sep. 11th, my wife made the mistake of mentioning that I served in 'Nam. To a woman at work. The woman asked her what it was like to marry a good little nutzi. My wife should have known better. She has been listening to this crap for thirty years.
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I think that the protesters should continue to protest. I also think that we should give them a free ticket to Iraq, or Iran or Afghanistan, and let them try and solve it themselves with "peace, love and negotiation".
I don't think we would need to give them round trip tickets.
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Turn off the tv cameras, put away the microphones and watch how quickly these worms go back into their holes ... obviously they did not get the proper amount of attention from their parents when they were younger...
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I think that the protesters should continue to protest. I also think that we should give them a free ticket to Iraq, or Iran or Afghanistan, and let them try and solve it themselves with "peace, love and negotiation".
I don't think we would need to give them round trip tickets.
Let me suggest something a little more practical. Up until the end of that war most Americans were willing to hang tough. This is what Nixon called the silent majority. There is nothing more useless than a SILENT majority. Don't let them shout you down. Every time they use their freedom of speech. You use yours.
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Quote:
"Don't let them shout you down. Every time they use their freedom of speech. You use yours."
Don't worry, i've been doing it for years. In fact, i like to use the Liberal-Left's tactics against them. It drives 'em nuts. They start screaming "Nazi", "Racist", "Warmonger", and other tired, old perjoratives in near-Pavlovian response.
Come to think of it, that's what the Leftist-Liberals are: "Tired and Old"....
Cabby
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Cabby44 ]
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Originally posted by Cabby44:
Come to think of it, that's what the Leftist-Liberals are: "Tired and Old"....
Cabby
Hehe... that's just funny.
Moving on... That article is roadkill in many ways. The peace protests may have been organized by communist anti-americans, but to pin that label on the protestors is a sweeping and unfair generalization.
To call peace protestors anti-american now is another sweeping and unfair generalization.
I do think that peace protests are a waste of time, however. They are going to get lots of attention and that's all. Rather than waste time on this now, I suggest the peace protestors join Peace Corps or do something else to actively work toward peace. It's entirely too easy to jump up in down in a big crowd of people and scream for peace, then slink away and do nothing later. It's a shame that all the "peaceniks" only come out of the woodwork in times of war. That's not true dedication to peace, that's only attention gathering. If people were committed to peace round the clock, it might become a reality.
The thing to do now is to urge the government to practice moderation. Write your congressman or senator. Don't waste your time screaming anti-war rhetoric on a college campus. It will simply cause the peace/moderation movement to be discredited when people see that there is no reasoning or rational action being taken by participants in the protests - just shouting and slander. The whole thing could go out the window.
When this war begins, and after it ends will be the time to focus on peace. Not by chanting in a crowd or painting peace symbols on you stomach, but by taking action. Peace takes work. Do the work! That way, we might have a chance for peace when this is over.
The idea that we only need to work for peace when we start a war with someone is ridiculous. At that point it's too late. Peace is a continuous process, and to start now, and and only do this NOW is not going to do any good in the long run. You want peace? Keep at it. There's a hell of a lot more work to be done.
Additionally, movements to stop the war are all well and good - but once again, just screaming in a crowd for the war to end isn't the only or best way to work towards peace. Get off your bellybutton and DO something! Go somewhere! Help someone!
When the time comes, I'll sign up for Peace Corps. When I leave Peace Corps, I will continue to work through the American Friends Service Committee, because it's action that begets peace, not words. Do your part.
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By the way, cabby... it's more than sufficient to just say "leftists" or "liberals." To use both (hyphenated, no less!) is rather redundant. Or did you not know that already?
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Quote:
"To call peace protestors anti-american now is another sweeping and unfair generalization."
Whatever. But it's nonetheless true. And BTW, not all Liberals are Leftists. How does one "work for Peace"?? The only thing i know of in all of human history that "works for peace" is to be the "baddest m*fer in the valley".
Otherwise, there wouldn't even BE a "Peace Corps" for you to join.
Comprende??
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Hi guys!
Hey, you know what I'm about, so I won't bore you with the usual. Just logging my vote of dissent in this thread ;)
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Ispar:
I think you've missed the point. The article doesn't call anti-war protestors un-american, rather it points out that they are sentilmentalists with little grasp on reality and little understanding of the eventual horrifying consequences that result from a misguided sense of self-righteousness.
I do not see the bull in the article. Infact it is dead on in the analysis as we actually look back at the reality of history.
#1 It is a documented fact that the North Vietnamese and Ho Chi Minh counted on the war not being won or lost in the jungles of Vietnam but in the perceived public opinion of USA. There is much credence in the analysis that the anti-war protests certainly steeled the North Vietnamese resolve and gave them hope for their eventual victory on this battlefield.
#2 It is a documented fact of the horrifying results from the aftermath of the North Vietnamese victory. The monstrous humanitarian catastrophe that occurred after the communist took control was certainly a reality for hundreds of thousands if not millions of vietnamese and cambodians people. This is the cold hard consequence which certainly is no bull especially those who were mercilessly killed after "peace" was made.
Tango, Sargeant
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
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With the constant liberal propaganda that Hollywood puts out its not hard to see how some of these people never had a chance. Some people just don't have it in them to think for themselves.
Tonight I watched West Wing. This T.V. show was surprisingly well written, considering the short amount of time they had to prepare it.
It was followed immediately by a Law and Order episode. Where Vietnam vets were depicted as baby killers as usual You would think even Hollywood hacks could come up with a new way to insult us.
Imagine a young guy watching these shows. First you get the flag waving all for one and one for all. Followed by the, just don't hurt anybody message. If you were that kid how would you react.
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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I watched left er I mean west wing too. First time as I thought it'd be something patriotic. If that was the best they could do, they shouldn't have wasted their time or mine. Seems it was written for the 16 to 24 year old libs who are trying hard to swallow all of this country pride stuff born on 9/11. Funny how they tried to walk the line throughout the entire show with good cop - bad cop action on every point not taking an anti anything stand on jack...
Should have watched the Amazing Race or went to bed an hour earlier....
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I will concede that some liberals go beyond leftist into the "maniacal" category. I won't even bother to explain working for peace to you, you would refuse to understand me, even you were capable of it. Just as an example, the Cold War was a great deterrent to international conflict. But did that make it good? Nope.
The US is the meanest mother****er in the valley, but we still manage to find ourselves getting into wars all the time.
I won't even bother with the anti-american thing. Suffice to say you are very wrong.
Dtango, I see your point, but I fail to see how the article did not make that statement. Gonna dispute it a little bit, though. It's not that many of the protestors have little grasp of reality (though many of them don't, true) but that they all have the "herd" mentality as their sole motivator. They are incorrect in thinking that the best way to convince the government to hold off is to gather in big groups on a college campus and scream anti-war rhetoric. Just gets people like you guys pissed at 'em.
Almost like the peace movement equivalent of PETA.
Originally posted by dtango:
Ispar:
I think you've missed the point. The article doesn't call anti-war protestors un-american, rather it points out that they are sentilmentalists with little grasp on reality and little understanding of the eventual horrifying consequences that result from a misguided sense of self-righteousness.
I do not see the bull in the article. Infact it is dead on in the analysis as we actually look back at the reality of history.
#1 It is a documented fact that the North Vietnamese and Ho Chi Minh counted on the war not being won or lost in the jungles of Vietnam but in the perceived public opinion of USA. There is much credence in the analysis that the anti-war protests certainly steeled the North Vietnamese resolve and gave them hope for their eventual victory on this battlefield.
#2 It is a documented fact of the horrifying results from the aftermath of the North Vietnamese victory. The monstrous humanitarian catastrophe that occurred after the communist took control was certainly a reality for hundreds of thousands if not millions of vietnamese and cambodians people. This is the cold hard consequence which certainly is no bull especially those who were mercilessly killed after "peace" was made.
Tango, Sargeant
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
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ispar:
"Insanity is doing the same things and expecting different results."
I believe that is also one of the points of the article. We have seen the horrific results of pursuing "peace" unilaterally in Vietnam. Do the anti-war protestors expect different results now by pursuing unilateral "peace"?
All decent human beings desire to have peace and I commend you for your realization that working toward peace is a sustained effort.
But there is a time when avoiding armed conflict is completely wrong. There is also a time when taking moderation in action is wrong.
Pursuing peace is predicated on the foundation that you are working with rational and decent human beings. In this you stand a reasonable chance of understanding the differences and grievances and can come to terms.
But it is a mistake to believe that the entirety of humankind lives by this inherent nature of goodness. Let history as recent as the Sept. 11 terrorists attacks be a lesson to us that there are those who belong to the human race who plot the deaths of innocents, and whose grand schemes result in the depravation and oppression of their fellow man. They cannot be described in any other way than being the Wicked. With these people their is no other recourse but to destroy them for they are working to destroy you and your fellow man.
Let the recent terrorists dispell the myth that with these people can you reason with for many of them lived in this and other free lands of the world, tasted the fruits of freedom and were not turned or deterred from the evil intent that clutched their souls.
Tango, Sargeant
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
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Chamberlin(sp?) sacrificed alot for peace. Ask Europe the price they paid and the historical reprecussions...
xBAT
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Originally posted by Toad:
"The blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the Communists."
LOL, I’ve come across some pretty twisted right-wing logic on this board but this one is a real prize.
Let me rephrase:
“If all the peaceniks were eliminated we could wage war in peace!”
I love it! Keep ‘em comin’. :D
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Originally posted by blur:
LOL, I’ve come across some pretty twisted right-wing logic on this board but this one is a real prize.
Let me rephrase:
“If all the peaceniks were eliminated we could wage war in peace!”
I love it! Keep ‘em comin’. :D
I read it = if the country was united, politicians would have let the military fight the war as a war is supposed to be fought, as the politicians would not have to worry about losing re-election. Instead they stayed on the fence due to a large anti-war voting block thus assuring our defeat...
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Demonstrations do have an impact on public opinion. That is why demonstrations are often staged for the cameras - they can be used as propaganda. Propaganda has been used as a weapon in war for some time. I don't see any twisted logic here...
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What cracks me up is the US has yet to fire a shot and the "anti-war" morons are jumping already.
We're not going to hit Kabul and wipe out mass civilian targets... it wont get fire bombed like Berlin did in WW2. When we hit it'll be much more surgical in nature.
The "war" isnt going to be just miltary in nature. Its been stated that it will be one of economic function, politcal as well as miltaristic in nature.
Personaly I have no sympathy for any dumb bellybutton that wants us to hold back from killing the SOB that killed 5000+ unexpecting people.
I personaly hope we naplum his camp and then get to witness the bastard burning like a marshmellow w/legs.
xBAT
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Blur,
That's a quote from ex-peacenik Horowitz. Did you read the article?
Why don't you contact him and set him straight. I'm sure he'll appreciate your call.
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i saw one of those college protests at san francisco state...it was in front of the "ceasar chavez student center" which is located at the far end of "malcom x plaza" no kidding. :rolleyes:
most of the people out there were protesting as a sort of accessory for their look.
in other words they had the white boy dreadlocks, the pachouli oil and the tye die dad bought for them in an attempt to be cool last visitation weekend, so what else will you do but protest?
around town the counter-protestors were just as boring and predictable.
it's like everyone gets a program for their head called liberal 1.0 or conservative 1.0 and just gets updates throughout their lives.
that's why everyone spits out the same tired garbage.....everytime a war comes around, regardless of the circumstances, liberals will be out there protesting because they think they are supposed to.
likewise conservatives will be keeping gmc in business and coming up with tear-jerking, earthy, tough-sounding one-liners like "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do..." <you gotta kinda shuffle and get that 1000 yd stare when you say that for maximum impact btw>
imagine a conservative who opposed a war for good reasons and went to protest....or a liberal who felt war was just! it's rare because everyone is so typecast.
we're really a nation of tired archetypes... :(
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Ispar..
Ok, you say you are for "Peace". So were the folks that vanished 9/11... they didn't go to war that morning. They went to work, and died.
How we gonna stop that from happening again?? Send the terrorists flowers? A surrender note? A massive corps of unarmed americans bringing 'em food? Riiiight. What? "Lets negotiate!" ?? My ass.
Ispar, you confused young puppy... if you wanna work for peace, join the diddlyin Marines. Be a man. If you can't or won't fight, be a Corpsman, and help our boys do the job thats gotta be done. Fight for your Nation. Fight for Peace. It's how it's done, always has been, always will be.
Good luck, son.
[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
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"Ispar, you confused young puppy..."
Negative. Just an "evolutionary stub" (thx, Vulcan) on the thornbush of mankind.
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Mrfish:
I reckon your cynicism would take on a whole new "look" if someone was lobbing mortar shells in the direction of your ennui. If the shooters were intent on killing you or enslaving you, you had damn well better "do what a man's gotta do".........
Thanks for the SF State vignette. I'm a SF native and i remember when SF was a Military and "blue-collar" workingman's town as much as it was a Financial center.
I dunno wtf it is now. It's still a great city, even if it IS full of granola-crunching idiots.......
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Originally posted by Cabby44:
Mrfish:
I reckon your cynicism would take on a whole new "look" if someone was lobbing mortar shells in the direction of your ennui. If the shooters were intent on killing you or enslaving you, you had damn well better "do what a man's gotta do"...
since it looks like my point zipped by your ear like the ak47 round of an evil moslem, i'll expand....
i have no qualms going to war with whoever it is we're going to war with. it seemed obvious but i guess i should have used bold type for those with short attention spans.
i don't, however, think life's problems are reduclible to catchy one-liner slogans and soundbites. unfortunately that's about all it takes for some - well that and colorful tee-shirts and coffee mugs. they're as mindless as the liberals.
red faced spouting morons on one end and willowy sheltered brats on the other. you can have each other for all i care.
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"The blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the Communists.
The second effect of the war was to surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted in the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in "re-education camps" of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a century of abject poverty imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, which continue to this day. This, too, is the responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s
Toad, there was no war protesters in 1965 when the Marines landed. Tell me, why didn’t we just stove into Hanoi that first week and secure the countryside?
China couldn’t be part of the equation could it?
In 68/72 when the war protests started in earnest, why was there 52 legal ways for rich white boys to evade the draft?
What was the military strategy for winning the war besides feeding working class kids to a meat grinder week after week?
10Bears--
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Originally posted by 10Bears:
Toad, there was no war protesters in 1965 when the Marines landed. Tell me, why didn’t we just stove into Hanoi that first week and secure the countryside?
I'd guess you'd have to find Lyndon Baines Johnson and ask him just why he decided to fight the war the way he did.
China couldn’t be part of the equation could it?
If it was, it probably didn't need to be. I was flying an RC-135 off the coast during the period that China invaded Viet Nam in 1979... the very scenario that scared everyone witless. The Chinese certainly weren't supermen. In fact, their ineptitude in combat was pretty funny.
In 68/72 when the war protests started in earnest, why was there 52 legal ways for rich white boys to evade the draft?
Because Congress didn't want any of their sons to go? Can you name a Congressman/Senator that lost a son in VietNam? So your point is?
What was the military strategy for winning the war besides feeding working class kids to a meat grinder week after week?
I've often wondered that myself. I actually wrote the "whiz kid" Bobby McNamara to find out why he did it that way but he never replied.
I do know that the junior officers that suffered through the war under the idiotic plan initially formulated by McNamara and carried to its ultimate failure later became the planners and leaders of the Gulf War. Seems they didn't use McNamara's logic in that one. Go figure.
Anyway, McNamara's book didn't provide an answer either; well, at least one that made common sense. I thought he was pretty self-serving. Maybe you'd have better luck. Let me know if he answers you.
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Originally posted by Toad:
[QB]I do know that the junior officers that suffered through the war under the idiotic plan initially formulated by McNamara and carried to its ultimate failure later became the planners and leaders of the Gulf War. Seems they didn't use McNamara's logic in that one. Go figure.
QB]
I just started reading "Into the Storm", by Tom Clancy and General Fred Franks, Jr. (Ret.) Fantastic book on the subject.
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Toad:
Wow, didn't know you were a "raven" :) (is that the right term?). Love to have a discussion with you sometime about life in RC-135's - I have always been curious. A non-classified discussion of course!
Thrawn:
I agree on Into the Storm. Does go into the jr. officers that changed the military after Vietnam and ultimately lead the Gulf War.
LOL, I'm hijacking my own thread! Stop it Tango, stop it!
Tango, Sargeant
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
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Tango,
I wasn't a "crow". I was a pilot. ;)
Initially I joined the 343 SRS and the patch had that sleepy raven on it. The "front end" crew.. pilots and navs... were in the same squadron as the "back end" crews, the Electronic Warfare Officers. The Security Service personnel, were, of course, in a completely different squadron. Those guys were extremely sharp.
As the mission and number of crews expanded, a decision was made to split the squadron into two different squadrons, the 343 SRS and the 38th SRS. The "crows" or Ravens as they more formally called themselves remained in the 343rd. (They hated being called "crows".. so of course, that's all we ever called them. ;) ) The pilots and navs went to the new squadron, the 38th.
Interestingly, one of the primary reasons for the switch was to create more command opportunities for non-pilot officers (ie: Navs and EWO's). There was a big brouhaha that these guys were not getting a fair shake in the promotion game due to the fact that flying squadrons/wings were always commanded by pilots. So, their opportunities to show their stuff and shine their resume were limited. I believe that they had a case.
In any event, the 343SRS became the dream assignment for EWO's with command aspirations.
As to the period I mentioned (without divulging classifed info) my crew flew a large number of those sorties. We volunteered for them; they were longer (built flying time faster so you timed out for the month earlier and got more days off) and they had receiver refuelings (the pilots always enjoyed that).
Nearly all the news "combat reports" that made the mainstream media concerning the Chinese incursion into North Viet Nam were generated from information collected by the RC-135's. We were "bylined" as "sources close to the battle zone". I often read summaries of intel my crew picked up in the newspapers about a week after the mission.
As I said, the Chinese were poorly led, poorly equipped and tactically deficient. It was funny listening to them (through our translators) scream at each other for their screwups.
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President Johnson was a wealer dealer. A used car salesman in the oval office. He believed that anyone could be forced to make a deal. He knew that Ho Chi Min liked Americans, and had been brow beat into the war by the South Vietnamese communist. And thought it would be easy to force him to the negotiating table.
This I how we got started on the "war of attrition". And what caused a lot of the problems with the protesters. War of attrition is just a fancy way of saying that we were there to kill people, period. We were not there to capture anything, there was nothing there to capture. We were not there to conquer North Vietnam. That was not what Johnson was after. He believed if we killed enough people, uncle Ho would be forced to make a deal. Basically the same deal we wond up with in Korea.
Two things went wrong. Ho Chi min was not a game show host. He was a man of principal. He was prepared to let his county die rather then give up. President Johnson had no idea of how to contend with a man like that.
And the war babies, as they used to call us, had been raised on a constant stream of WW2 movies. In these, success was measured by ground captured, and advances made. Americans were always depicted as the good guys. In Vietnam we measured success by body counts. And Hollywood always depicts us as mentally deranged to some degree. And usually as baby killers. This practice continues to this day, for that matter.
If Hollywood had shown the intentional targeting of women and children in Tokyo, Homberg, and Dresden, for fire bombing. And, in the case of Dresden, the strafing of the servivors by P-51,s. The war babies might have had a real understanding of what war was about. They might have been better prepared to wage war. As it was, they could not understand a war waged just for the purpose of killing people. To force the other side to the negotiating table.
As fare a the Chinese thing goes. Remember in the sixties our intel had us convinced that the Russians had even more Nukes then we had. The sheer number of Chinese would sooner or later force us into using our nukes, then the Russians would use theirs. An all out war with China would have meant literally the end of the world, as far as we knew.
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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Toad, there was no war protesters in 1965 when the Marines landed. Tell me, why
didn’t we just stove into Hanoi that first week and secure the countryside?
China couldn’t be part of the equation could it?In 68/72 when the war protests started in earnest, why was there 52 legal ways for rich white boys to evade the draft?What was the military strategy for winning the war besides feeding working class kids to a meat grinder week after week?
Remember a little battle fought in the fifties called the Korean War? What happened after the UN troops occupied the northern part of that country? What was the outcome of that?
With this still fresh in the minds of the politicians what did they do in Nam? Maybe like declaring North Vietnam off limits to US ground offensive operations? Which of course
meant that the war was unwinable as long as North Vietnam didn't care how many of their people died.
The draft that was in place during this time was a absolute disgrace. If you need a draft to fill out the militaries personnel needs, everyone goes. Rich, poor and middle class. No excemptions. If we ever walk this path again, the results will be the same again.
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: newguy2 ]
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"If you need a draft to fill out the militaries personnel needs, everyone goes. Rich, poor and middle class."
LOL. You really are a new guy. During the Civil War it was legal to pay someone to tke your place in the Army/draft. Rich folks dont fight Americas wars, unless the intire nation is at risk.
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"If you need a draft to fill out the militaries personnel needs, everyone goes. Rich, poor and middle class."
LOL. You really are a new guy. During the Civil War it was legal to pay someone to tke your place in the Army/draft. Rich folks dont fight Americas wars, unless the intire nation is at risk.
Wow easymoe... I'm amazed you only had to go back 120 years to support your statement.
Did you ever wonder why people had to use influence just to get their kids in the guard as opposed to active duty? I don't suppose it was because they were able to buy them right out of the draft.
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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LOL. You really are a new guy. During the Civil War it was legal to pay someone to tke
your place in the Army/draft. Rich folks dont fight Americas wars, unless the intire nation is at risk.
What the hell, does the civil war have to do with it? My father-in-law was in country for two tours 69-71 with the First Air Cav. He wasn't home for two days before one of those's who had bought their way out of the fight (as you called it) had the gall to call him a baby killer. I stand by what I said about the draft at that time. It was a disgrace.
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He he. Don't get to bent out of shape. The Constitution is much more important to those of us on the lower end of the economic ladder, than it is to them.
BTW. During Vietnam, if your daddy was rich enough to send you to collage, thats all it took to stay out of the draft.
PPS. The first cav almost got me killed. Thats not a good example to wave at me :)
PPPS. One of my D.I.,s favorite sayings was. " I would rather have a sister in a potato house. Than a brother in the national guard."
He said it I didn't :)
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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BTW. During Vietnam, if your daddy was rich enough to send you to collage, thats all it took to stay out of the draft.
That's my whole point. If the rich folks kids
died at the same rate as the poor and lower middle class did. The war would have been won or settled long before it did. I'm worried about the same damn thing happening again.
PPS. The first cav almost got me killed. Thats not a good example to wave at me
Small world :) He was in Second of the Fifth, Charlie Company. I'm sure he'd say, you almost got him killed trying to save ya :)
Funny thing, about 5 years ago he was in a military theme type bar near Disney Land. He got talking to another guy who turned out to be a phantom pilot that he remembered from calling in air strikes. He was an RT.
Should point out that I was 18 in 1972. He's two years older that I. No college for me, had 300+ draft number.
[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: newguy2 ]
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At the risk of sidetracking the thread even further... look at the Korean War Timeline:
1950
25 June North Korean People's Army crosses the 38th parallel and invades South Korea (Republic of Korea). North Korean radio proclaims that the South Korean army had tried to invade North Korea (People's Democratic Republic of Korea) and that they had been forced to invade the south.
1 Oct South Korean troops cross the 38th parallel.
1 Oct MacArthur calls upon North Korea to surrender.
1 Oct South Korean troops cross the 38th parallel.
7 Oct UN General Assembly authorizes UN forces to cross the 38th parallel.
So, about 90 days after the initial attack, UN forces are back to the "start" position.
16 Oct The chinese troops cross the Yalu and enters Korea.
21 Nov American troops reach the Yalu.
~ 6 weeks for UN troops to move from the 38th to the Yalu
26 Nov Chinese troops begin a counter-offensive.
25 Dec Chinese troops cross the 38th parallel.
~ 4 weeks for Chinese to move from Yalu to 38th
After that, it was back and forth fighting mostly around Seoul with neither side able to force a conclusion.
Casualties:
Dead/ Wounded and Missing/ Total
US estimates: 29,550/ 106.978/ 136.978
China estimates: ?/ ?/ 900,000
Once again, it comes down to will. Interesting that it all ended just where it started. Coincidence? I think not.
Clearly, the Chinese are awesome only in their willingness to accept huge losses. Otherwise, they are pretty easy to inflict huge losses upon. Even they became unwilling to tolerate the losses that they would have incurred if they had tried to conquer all of South Korea. Thus the peace agreement was finally reached.
The US/UN were/are not willing to accept continual losses. When it became clear that the war would drag on if fought above the 38th, the will to do so vanished (unlike the determination during the relatively easy drive to the Yalu after Oct. 7).
It all comes down to "will".